Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | >> (show all)
mmalik
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #6361267 - 02/07/14 04:33 AM

Quote:

PPS, for the spreadsheet, the LX850 PEC is currently PPEC




Gday Andrew, will update soon. Regards


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BPO
sage


Reged: 02/23/10

Loc: South Island, NZ
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: orlyandico]
      #6361373 - 02/07/14 07:24 AM

Quote:

Ed makes a very good point. Worm driven German EQ mounts have been around for 200 years. By that standard only ASA has anything revolutionary. Everybody else is using 200 year old technology.

It's very difficult to revolutionize the mount industry simply because volumes are too small to amortize development costs. Look at the AP1200. This design is almost 20 years old and still crushes the majority of conventional mounts in performance. It's 200 year old technology taken to almost as perfect as possible.

things like the ZEQ25 are only minor refinements to be honest.

Encoders have been around since the 1970s. Autoguiding as well.

Really the only revolutionary thing I see is direct drive. Dr Keller must be some sort of evil genius

Although lets not forget the CalPoly SiTech driven telescope is also direct drive.




Don't forget Astelco's extraordinary NTM-500.

NTM-500 review here on CN.

Certainly not for everybody (yet), but you may be surprised at just how many are in use by some seriously dedicated amateurs (and quite a few professionals).


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BKBrown
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 08/23/09

Loc: Northern Virginia, USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6361376 - 02/07/14 07:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The Atlas AZ EQ-G which, unlike its Meade predecessor, actually does work quite well in either GEM or Alt-Az configuration




I see there Atlas 'Pro' AZ/EQ-G ($1,999.99); is that the same you mention? When was this released? Looks new release. Regards




That would be the one (as seen in my picture above, sitting on a Losmandy HD tripod)...

Clear Skies,
Brian


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rkayakr
sage
*****

Reged: 10/27/10

Loc: Northeast Ohio
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: orlyandico]
      #6361417 - 02/07/14 08:22 AM

Quote:

Ed makes a very good point. Worm driven German EQ mounts have been around for 200 years. By that standard only ASA has anything revolutionary. Everybody else is using 200 year old technology.





Avalon mounts have belt drive with no worm.

Edited by rkayakr (02/07/14 08:27 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
WadeH237
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6361539 - 02/07/14 09:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

What new technology does the AVX bring?




May be not new the technology per se, but surely creative and revolutionary. A welcome participant of the revolution. Regards




I still don't get it. Try as I might, I cannot think of a single creative or revolutionary feature on the AVX.

If you take a CG5 and improve the bearings, make the packaging of the motors more efficient and fix the PEC so that it can store the data (instead of requiring a reprogram on each session), you get an AVX. Oh, and I think that they put new motors on it.

These changes are very welcome and really improve the mount. Part of its appeal is that it takes one of the most reliable and ubiquitous low end mounts out there and makes incremental improvements across the board with proven technology - the very definition of evolutionary...not creative or revolutionary.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: WadeH237]
      #6361547 - 02/07/14 09:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What new technology does the AVX bring?




May be not new the technology per se, but surely creative and revolutionary. A welcome participant of the revolution. Regards




I still don't get it. Try as I might, I cannot think of a single creative or revolutionary feature on the AVX.

If you take a CG5 and improve the bearings, make the packaging of the motors more efficient and fix the PEC so that it can store the data (instead of requiring a reprogram on each session), you get an AVX. Oh, and I think that they put new motors on it.

These changes are very welcome and really improve the mount. Part of its appeal is that it takes one of the most reliable and ubiquitous low end mounts out there and makes incremental improvements across the board with proven technology - the very definition of evolutionary...not creative or revolutionary.




The bearings are unchanged but you are correct about the rest.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more
*****

Reged: 04/30/03

Loc: NE Ohio
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: WadeH237]
      #6361558 - 02/07/14 09:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What new technology does the AVX bring?




May be not new the technology per se, but surely creative and revolutionary. A welcome participant of the revolution. Regards




I still don't get it.




Me, too. Yet another clone of an 80's Vixen mount is hardly revilutionary.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
WesC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/06/13

Loc: La Crescenta, CA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: jrcrilly]
      #6362452 - 02/07/14 05:17 PM

I don't think anything mentioned in this thread is truly revolutionary... even a different drive method, if its still a German equatorial mount, doing the same things a GEM does is evolutionary, not revolutionary. Even if it is a big improvement in the way it works.

The question "Is X revolutionary or evolutionary?" is the played out, over-hyped discussion of the decade. I really wish sometimes that folks would go back to school and learn the definition of these two words.

Like the venerable Inigo Montoya once said, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: WesC]
      #6362531 - 02/07/14 05:52 PM

Don't get hung up on GEM vs Alt/Az. Direct drive is revolutionary because of basic principles, as is modern belt drive, as is the use of absolute encoders for augmentation, as is friction drive, as is harmonic drive.

Not necessarily because they are in fact new technologies; rather because they are modern and (hopefully) cost-effective implementations of technology, bringing it to us amateurs.

Evolutionary or revolutionary? Well, those are just different degrees of the same thing. Who decides when evolutionary trips over to revolutionary. Heck, it's just an "R"

/per

/per


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mmalik
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: WesC]
      #6362544 - 02/07/14 05:57 PM

We are getting too much caught up in revolutionary/evolutionary business. The whole idea is that lot of new choices are becoming available and quite a few at more affordable prices, unlike ever before. Some of ‘em may just be creative new designs (e.g., ZEQ) and some may just be more affordable to the masses with improved performance (e.g., AVX), if not new technology. Let’s focus our efforts more on the substance of what's being discussed than trying to define terms and getting bogged down. I think most folks “get” the concept and the exciting (mount) times we are in. Regards

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Stew57
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6362566 - 02/07/14 06:05 PM

Speaking of evolutionary/revolutionary, what ever happened to the Explore Scientific mount displayed a few years back? It sure looked nice but I bet it didn't come in at the target price.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gdd
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 11/23/05

Loc: N Seattle suburb, WA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: orlyandico]
      #6362581 - 02/07/14 06:12 PM

Quote:

Here's the paper on the 18" CalPoly direct-drive (which uses SiTech by the way)

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2008SASS...27..123G

Very briefly, a direct drive mount is a mount which has no geartrain. Each axis is a massive motor that is directly driven. No geartrain equals no periodic error whatsoever, and very high slewing speed.

But you need precise motor control, because the motor is running at 1 revolution per day when tracking, and you need to maintain speed extremely accurately.

Hence you need to have relative or absolute encoders on both axes, to provide positional feedback.





The direct drive motors may be revolutionary regards allowing for more instanteous response to feedback from the encoders, but I don't see them as essential. The short periodic errors associated with the worm are gone, but the daily periodic error similar to that associated with the worm wheel remains. The daily error I am sure can be (and probably is) removed by software calibrating against a standard. I think the revolution is that the encoders can be thought of as bolt on precision that does not depend the resources of just the small amateur astomomy industry. If multiple industries require increasingly precise encoders, the size of the combined markets may allow for declining costs and increasing performance like we have seen in digital cameras and computers.

Gale


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6363116 - 02/07/14 11:13 PM

I think that it's also worth noting that capacity is the manufacturer's claimed capacity. There is no standard rating method for measuring mount capacity. I can promise you that a Mach 1 has a much higher payload capacity than a G-11 or CGE, each of which are rated by their manufacturer as having 60# of capacity, whereas the Mach 1 claims only 45# capacity.

Regards,

Jim


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Spacetravelerx
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6363223 - 02/08/14 12:54 AM

Quote:

I think that it's also worth noting that capacity is the manufacturer's claimed capacity. There is no standard rating method for measuring mount capacity. I can promise you that a Mach 1 has a much higher payload capacity than a G-11 or CGE, each of which are rated by their manufacturer as having 60# of capacity, whereas the Mach 1 claims only 45# capacity.

Regards,

Jim




One thing to add on the mount capacity, the LX850 is rated for 90 lbs, and it looks like that holds very easily for visual and astrophotography. I am running over 80 lbs with no problems at all. I am back home in New Mexico and will be loading up the LX850 tomorrow. I looks like I will have at least 7 days of good weather, heh heh heh...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
blueman
Photon Catcher
*****

Reged: 07/20/07

Loc: California
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6363290 - 02/08/14 02:43 AM

All I need is a mount that works well all the time and is able to work with any software I have. Make it easy to work on too and it is a real winner.
That is why I vote for the AP mount, all the above is true.
Blueman


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mmalik
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: BPO]
      #6363347 - 02/08/14 03:59 AM

Quote:

Don't forget Astelco's extraordinary NTM-500.




Will get that added. Thx


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mmalik
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #6363348 - 02/08/14 04:06 AM

Quote:

If you are going to discuss a mount revolution I think you have to include the go-to Dobsonians Orion has made mainstream.




May be we can tackle 'em in the later part of the discussion. Regards


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mmalik
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6363369 - 02/08/14 04:48 AM

Links to ones listed so far...

ZEQ25...
AVX...
CEM60...
Mach1...
HDX110.../EQ8...
LX850...
GM1000HPS...
1100GTO...
LFR...
DDM60 PRO...
NTM-500...
Mesu 200...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: mmalik]
      #6363373 - 02/08/14 04:56 AM

Http://10micron.de is even better and can be viewed in English.

/per


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mmalik
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Are we in a mount revolution? [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6363407 - 02/08/14 06:27 AM

On a lighter note, no discussion of revolution would be complete without coups; some very successful, some not so much.


ZEQ25 is launching a very successful campaign at the moment if they maintain the momentum. AVX campaign is slow but steady. Both ZEQ25 and AVX are grass roots campaigns recruiting commoners without much fighting skills.


CEM60 coup is in the works and highly anticipated to succeed in overthrowing the dictator.


Mach1 is the battle-hardened dictator, challenging to be toppled.


HDX110 & EQ8 forces have teamed up for a new insurgency.


LX850 coup started with LX800 commander who had to endure an epic defeat but campaign goes on; success of the current campaign remains quite dubious given their highly complex, integrated, battlefield untested, and proprietary war gadgets.


GM1000HPS is an Italian invader who has partnered up with the locals, but will be fighting at the expense of the locals.


1100GTO is a fat commander waiting in the wings who has pledged allegiance to the dictator in power.


LFR is a dubious Italian cohort working in concert with GM1000HPS to over throw the regime, again at the expense of the locals, but uses some new drive system with no gears.


DDM60 PRO is an Austrian led coup whose chances of success are slim given poor commoners may not be worthy to serve; furthermore, their direct drive system has yet to endure the test of time.


NTM-500 and Mesu 200 are little known Russian and Dutch insurgencies and have almost no chance of rising to significant power.

Happy coup-ing!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | >> (show all)


Extra information
24 registered and 38 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Dave M, richard7, bilgebay, iceblaze 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 13035

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics