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David Gray
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Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Co. Durham UK
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: telescopemullet]
      #5692804 - 02/21/13 01:48 PM

"He did not write that he saw a belt(s), big difference."

I lost this bit somewhere in my editing - my response:

When a guy like Sheehan commits to such a remark maybe the difference is not that great.

He was also there in 1995 with David Graham and David told me that he and a couple of others were getting detail on Uranus (the 36") and Sheehan refused to look as he said they had influenced him....!!


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stanislas-jean
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: leviathan]
      #5692830 - 02/21/13 02:03 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

May I re-issue the following tablesheet already given, "the scope factor".
This express the contrast transfer of a characterised scope for features as line with a given width (assimilited as banding).
The improvement bring by the diameter is expressed for 2 hypothesis:
left column transfer ratio considering the FTM evolution with a sinusoidal pattern
right column transfer ratio considering the same but with a patern of black and white lines (assimilited to banding also).
The transfer ratio never reach the ratio 1 but less.
For a 12" sct (as mine) the ratio transfer is 50% for a 24" 74% and for the famous 40" not more than 87%.
THis mean having a 2% on the planet, at the eyepiece it is just necessary to combine the 2% with the ratio transfer to get the contrast at the eyepiece.
Therefore if the personal equation of the observer is not able to assum 2% for the least, bad hope for capturing something and good hope for declaring Uranus disk is featureless.
Anybody as also said can visit a lab for testing his personnal equation.
Just do it Pete.
The results of the tablesheet was well tested also on the sky with scopes from R150mm until the 12" cassegrain and also, you remember under the schematic drawing for testing given 4 or 5 posts above (some comments about?).
According me any problem needs to be well quoted to see where we are. It's done.
Stanislas-Jean


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

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Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: stanislas-jean]
      #5693831 - 02/22/13 12:11 AM

There you go again Stan. No I'm not going to saturate my preconceived notions on lists, and figures and percentages. There's a lot to be said for keeping the slate clean so to speak. I haven't given up on Uranus much as I haven't given up on the current white spots on Jupiter with my 8" in mediocre seeing. In the same token Im certain beyond anything it isn't going to show with calendar regularity. Information is good in locating threshold detail but it can also be a bad thing in excess. It's a fine line .

David G. Thanks for your comments. Funny enough I just bought a Sheehan book on the planets a couple hours ago on iBooks.'

Pete


Edited by azure1961p (02/22/13 12:14 AM)


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stanislas-jean
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5693913 - 02/22/13 01:36 AM

May I suggest the practice by you of the tests drawn above, this will help you to locate your personal equation and for knowing where you are in face of the Uranus problem.
This shall be quantified in an other manner than through just words.
Good hope.
Stanislas-Jean


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

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Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: stanislas-jean]
      #5694250 - 02/22/13 09:17 AM

Lol I don't have a problem with Uranus.

Cheers.

Pete


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telescopemullet
professor emeritus
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Reged: 11/16/09

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5696284 - 02/23/13 10:17 AM

Here is a great quote from Phyicist Dr. Lisa Randall that captures why those of us posting here from a scientific background do not give any credibility to Stan's "observations:"

“Although our instinct might be that observations made unaided with our eyes are the most reliable and that we should be suspicious of abstraction, science teaches us to transcend this all too human inclination. The measurements we make with the instruments we design are more trustworthy than our naked eyes, and can be improved and verified through repetition.”

Excerpt From: Randall, Lisa. “Knocking on Heaven's Door.” HarperCollins. iBooks.


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stanislas-jean
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: telescopemullet]
      #5696327 - 02/23/13 10:44 AM

Is that personal psychology or a kind of science?
My dear, always crosscheck what is reported by different ways and make a status at final to see convergence, even for this kind of sentence given isolated and placed freely when needed for getting right only.
Sorry you get nothing more, nothing roughly in fact since the beginning here.
Stanislas-Jean


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telescopemullet
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Reged: 11/16/09

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: stanislas-jean]
      #5696352 - 02/23/13 10:55 AM

Quote:

Is that personal psychology or a kind of science?
Stanislas-Jean




That is a quote from one of the most influential and prominent physicists practicing today. She aptly and succinctly describes with that one paragraph the essence of science. You are alone in your observations.


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stanislas-jean
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: telescopemullet]
      #5696477 - 02/23/13 12:06 PM

Alone, are you sure?
Check the data already given and published and go to the psychanalyst.
You are on making everything as autosuggestion with your idea sorry pseudo-science of 2 peanuts.
Sorry my name is not Galileo!
Stanislas-Jean


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telescopemullet
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Reged: 11/16/09

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: stanislas-jean]
      #5696480 - 02/23/13 12:08 PM

Yes, I am quite sure Stan.

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blb
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Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: telescopemullet]
      #5696490 - 02/23/13 12:13 PM

After five months plus, you all are still arguing with someone who sees what no one else can see. Only a few can ever see what he does and those are the ones who probably saw the canals on Mars, if they had lived back then. How many of us have seen any detail in a plenatary nebula of the same size? or any other planet for that mater. With abilities like his, we should look at Mercury and contribute to our knowledge of this inner planet, but it can't be done. Yes it is possible to see some detail on Uranus occasionaly but not to see banding every time you look at the planet. If you could see this then others would see it too, but they can't. So I would say just stop arguing with him and let him do his own thing. We can argue when his work is published in a profesional journal. Until then, so what.

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stanislas-jean
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: telescopemullet]
      #5696546 - 02/23/13 12:46 PM

I am pretty sure also, because here in team.
You are alone, pretty sure also, in your head in first.
And not alone by also the data published by some other observers at the sites given, during the present opposition.
Pretty sure and probably more at the next opposition.
This is what I aimed by and through this forum.
You will not be.
Stanislas-Jean


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: stanislas-jean]
      #5696895 - 02/23/13 04:03 PM

Stan your getting a little personal here. Mr. Mullet in quoting an important person in the field on a point of view that supports his beliefs. That's fair game Stan. In the face of it though you are making personal jabs which is unfair to others who don't want this locked up.

What you might want to consider is that no observer artist can PROVE their drawing is 100% accurate. It's a faith issue and a lot of things come together to form that. Lashing out (and granted Mr. M has been pointed too) isn't supporting your purposes. At some point you have to realize you will have some detractors. So long as you are posting in a public forum that is part of the public element.

I don't give up on Uranus personally ( though it takes gumption to bother) and Im not convinced you have seen nothing real either. It's an interesting point of interest positive or negative.

At anyrate when a person can read your blood pressure in a post - you are standing to close.

Pete


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stanislas-jean
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5696946 - 02/23/13 04:37 PM

Be honest with your self.
It's a matter of confidence not faith my dear and the best way to be confident is to see globally where you are on a problem.
And for knowing where you are it is necessary to synthetise the situation. And for synthetise the situation this is for the practice of analyse, practice contradictory tests, make comparison with results, compare with other observing data, etc....
What's for your famous lady is doing here? To get doubt or managing situation for refutting easily;
May I object with claiming to you for considering the views given since the beginning by me that are not autosuggestion results. Goto a lab for getting your own personal equation for viewing, it's not imagination from mind but positive action.
This is a public forum, is it not!
You have to admit the question well possible physically.
Tell me your technical argument against? Never given since the 500 posts taken place here on 2 forums. Still waiting.
Stanislas-Jean


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Rick Woods
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: telescopemullet]
      #5697216 - 02/23/13 08:12 PM

Quote:

That is a quote from one of the most influential and prominent physicists practicing today. She aptly and succinctly describes with that one paragraph the essence of science. You are alone in your observations.




Well, I don't see any observing credentials there. Has she ever observed Uranus? Or, is this another yawn-inspiring instance of someone who can't do something, explaining why nobody else can - the "Sour Grapes" syndrome?

We have had several heavyweight observers weighing in here (directly and indirectly) on the side of seeing details on Uranus; people like David Gray, David Graham, William Sheehan, and Steve O'Meara (or haven't you read those posts?)

Perhaps Stan isn't as alone as you seem to think. Maybe the problem is in your own lack of visual acuity. To paraphrase an old quote: Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it ain't there. Although, I doubt that you, personally, have ever tried with an open mind, and for long enough to come to any sort of intelligent conclusion.
If you're going to be a doubter, you might emulate David K., who has gone out and tried.


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

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Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5697564 - 02/23/13 11:24 PM



I get your point. I appreciate your numbers, facts and figures and percentages and I've read it all and Im not disputing the numbers .
For me though - its never happened. I'd love it too and maybe some 9/10 night it will. I can't say I've seen the planet under the best seeing I've had or the top five nights ever. So there is that. I have paltry hope though. If that 9/10 night comes when it s up and I'm out and there aren't bands Stan, you'll never hear the end of it!!!

In fun,

Pete

Edited by azure1961p (02/24/13 04:05 PM)


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telescopemullet
professor emeritus
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Reged: 11/16/09

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5697583 - 02/23/13 11:41 PM

This is not about her observing a planet, it's about one of the world's most brilliant minds describing science. Your sour grapes comment only supports her point. I suggest you read her book.

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stanislas-jean
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5697783 - 02/24/13 04:58 AM

Yes my dear.
I am of the old school manners.
Now numbers quantifications are not explanations for suiting a situation for personal agreement as you imagine with your psychanalistic science.
Numbers are rather reasons why, this is quite different and a world between.
So still no argument from you.
Rather than this kind of reading, I suggest you to take information from radioastronomer who create the JT65 mode for data transmission and recently deeper modes.
You will be surprised by the fact that data are extracted from the noise without SNR ratio. How, by the singularities supported by the radio signal modulation that is quite different from the noise pattern itself. The phase modulation of the signal is the discriminator and the SNR ratio is then applying on this criteria. This is not the signal amplitude that is the lead criteria.
Now apply this to visual observations, what can be the discriminators and how you can be trained for this?
Experience is placed also in that fields and here this shall be personal.
Imagine a flight fighter pilot now at the command in hot action with rapid and fuzzy data moving at eyes, the decision oftenly has to be performed quickly without making the read of the lady book only. They are trained and experienced so experimented.
But what can cover the term of experience and qualificative experimented?
The long distanced targets views are very interresting for studying all these facts, and we know also, being lucky, that the contrast levels on planet stand still around 2%.
Where is autosuggestion?
I am HAM.
Stanislas-Jean


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David Gray
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Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Co. Durham UK
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: blb]
      #5697817 - 02/24/13 05:53 AM

Quote:

After five months plus, you all are still arguing with someone who sees what no one else can see. Only a few can ever see what he does and those are the ones who probably saw the canals on Mars, if they had lived back then. How many of us have seen any detail in a plenatary nebula of the same size? or any other planet for that mater. With abilities like his, we should look at Mercury and contribute to our knowledge of this inner planet, but it can't be done. Yes it is possible to see some detail on Uranus occasionaly but not to see banding every time you look at the planet. If you could see this then others would see it too, but they can't. So I would say just stop arguing with him and let him do his own thing. We can argue when his work is published in a profesional journal. Until then, so what.




Seems to me over 11k views of this thread (10k+ on the “..Season”) might be indication of something worthwhile in spite of the often rather circular debate/s at times.

Planetary nebulae: Please point me to a one that truly matches Uranus in brightness and visual aspect. An unfortunate prefix, “planetary”, I believe coined by William Herschel, but I suspect not meant as an exact comparison. Does the Saturn Nebula really look a lot like that planet? If I were to start seeing Saturn looking like that I would reckon my observing days were over! NGC 6891 in Delphinus (a long-time favourite of mine) has been mentioned. I hope we would not use this (or any other) c.100x fainter object, with some comparatively coarser features, as a yardstick for Uranus. Perhaps I might revise my impressions if I was allowed to view it in the Palomar 5m, or suchlike, versus Uranus in my 415mm D-K, or even an 8” SCT – but very much doubt it! I have had many views through a friend’s 8” Celestron for the record – not Uranus so far!

As I said previously: next apparition I will put the 152mm off-axis stop (f/44!) on the (f/16) D-K and give it a fair (and cautious!) appraisal. Then hopefully post my impressions; if Uranus has not become CN’s Forbidden Planet by then!!


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: David Gray]
      #5697940 - 02/24/13 09:38 AM

Not a planet but demoted to argument!

I equate these two threads as something of a tennis match. "Your Serve" might've been a better title . Still it does bear fruit.

Pete

Edited by azure1961p (02/24/13 09:39 AM)


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