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Paul R.
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Loc: Northern Illinois
Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th.
      #6245588 - 12/10/13 07:38 PM Attachment (112 downloads)

The attached is an image of Jupiter a close friend of mine composed during a recent, all night observing session.

Is this a sketch or actual photo?

What do you think?


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statenislanddob
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6245614 - 12/10/13 07:48 PM

wow nice

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goodricke1
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6245616 - 12/10/13 07:48 PM

I think it's a sketch, doesn't quite have the 3-D effect of a photo... very good all the same

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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6245622 - 12/10/13 07:56 PM

Both. There's discrepencies here that tell me its seems like a composite image helped in a photo editing paint program.

- the moons show no hint of atmospheric refraction - this usually comes with excellent seeing. Then why are they blurry edged but Jupiter is sharper? Moreover - Jupiter pixelates when enlarged while the moons stay smooth. The colors are right however - Io being gold - but Ganymede should be nearly twice as large while in the pic its only marginally larger.

- the details portrayed are real. This - however attenuated digitally is based on a real CCD image. Sharpening reveals deeper and deeper details. A brute sketch would never go this deep into contrasts.

Its a very very nice naturalized CCD image of Jupiter - adjusted to approximate the visual impression and the moons are add on paint-ins.
Part of what makes it appear paint-like is the gamma applied which lightens the darker limbs where illumination falls off.

My .2. However you cut the cake its a beautiful image however. Kudos to the astronomer.

Pete

Edited by azure1961p (12/10/13 08:14 PM)


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6245886 - 12/10/13 09:55 PM

Since you asked the question, I am going to say that's a sketch because if it were am photo you wouldn't ask. It's a sketch and quite possibly the best one this observer has ever seen by anybody. I mean anybody. The colors are pretty much spot on, too.

What amazing clarity and detail for an 8" scope. Seeing and observing conditions must have been perfect. I'd say it's a sketch but it looks more like a photo.

During the best moments Jupiter looks something like that, but those moments are to quick to capture all that detail. And I could never (well, never say never) sketch that level of detail with that level of clarity. Well done, if it's a sketch.

How does he do that? What techniques?

Is it a hybrid as Pete says? Maybe...

Edited by Asbytec (12/10/13 10:18 PM)


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6245947 - 12/10/13 10:25 PM

Lol - Norme I looked for the technical argument - you went straight to psychology! Well done.

Pete


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John Boudreau
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6245949 - 12/10/13 10:27 PM

It's a photo. It even responds to regularly practiced sharpening routines. The planet and moons were either pasted onto a totally blackened background or the background was isolated in software and then darkened.

However, it was taken closer to 0840 UT than the reported 0800UT.


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Rich (RLTYS)Moderator
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246404 - 12/11/13 06:42 AM

If it's sketch it's a darn good one.

Rich (RLTYS)


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Rich (RLTYS)]
      #6246441 - 12/11/13 07:19 AM Attachment (13 downloads)

Actually, I think it's an image.

Closer comparison with other images of that time show some amazing similarities, too similar, and some faint detail likely out of reach for an observer. The detail is not impossible, one might imagine it can be done by a very talented observer and reproduced by a skilled artist with a fantastic technique. The question is, do we have such a talented person? Maybe.

However, there are some features that are highly unlikely to be observed with the human eye. It's not visible at first glance at the image above on that scale, but closer inspection shows it. For example, in the NNTempB very near the preceding limb (left of center) there is a very faint oval. This oval shows in images of that date and meridian, too. It has a faint orangish hue with a darker ring around it. And there are other very small, faint details in the immediate area that I highly doubt almost any observer could see let along sketch correctly.

In my experience, something that faint that close to the limb is very hard to see, if at all. And in my experience, one certainly could not see the already faint object's very low contrast well enough to see that oval with is slightly brighter center and darker ring. And in my experience, even though Jupiter could look like that in an 8" scope under perfect conditions, to capture it that accurately while Jupiter is rotating is very difficult, at best.

So, playing the odds an oval like that could be observed near very much it's real state, especially very near the limb, is highly unlikely. Like DNA, if there is one in a million that could do it, this is more likely not that one in a million than it is that one in a million. Odds are, it's an image, IMO.

I don't rule it out a sketch conclusively and would certainly shake the hand of the observer if this were a real sketch. But, I feel absolutely safe betting the farm. It's an image.


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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246513 - 12/11/13 08:31 AM

This image, and level of detail, is EXACTLY what was seen that night. The seeing was about as close to a 10 as one can get. The instrument utilized was an equal match to the seeing. The scope that was used was a COMPLETELY rebuilt Parks OTA. In fact, the only thing surviving from it's original form is its absolutely superb full thickness Pyrex primary mirror. The mirror cell was replaced, the secondary was replaced with a Protostar quartz mirror and holder, and the tube was replaced with an over sized fiberglass tube to ensure proper baffling, and lastly, a *Feathertouch* focuser was added as well. At the end of this excellent optical train was a Televue 6mm Delos eyepiece.

Magnification was approx. 203X.

So, having said all of this the answer is that this is an artist's impression, or a sketch processed through Photoshop. The artist name who created this image as depicted in the illustration is Mr. Adolf Schaller, an Emmy awarding wining staff artist who worked with Carl Sagan during the Cosmos years.

Downright brilliant wouldn't ya say? The dude's work repeatedly over the past 2.5 decades that I have known him has consistently left me speechless..

Edited by Paul R. (12/11/13 09:17 AM)


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246534 - 12/11/13 08:44 AM

Paul, I was just coming back to say, if that's a sketch, it is certainly an inspiring one. Inspiring in the full meaning of the word, something to strive for in my own work.

I have no doubt Jupiter resembled the above image in perfect seeing with an excellent 8" aperture. And no doubt an Emmy award winning artist could pull off such a fantastic rendition. I'm not doubting any of that. But, when you say an, "artist's impression," is it an impression from a view through the eyepiece or of another image?

If you got a view like that, man, those are nights to live for. Congratulations. Living in the tropics surrounded by ocean, I can fully attest to the jaw dropping effect excellent seeing has when viewing Jupiter. Surely many of us can. I just wish for more skill at really getting it on paper more accurately.

Inspiring, yea, you bet.


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246547 - 12/11/13 08:51 AM

Par - with all due respects, its an impossible feat, beyond superhuman to put that together with any accuracy on a rotating object. Its a digital image adjusted to approximate the visual impression. It could have been painted as a layer over an original image - but no other way. Its an age old technique. Back in the day artist painted on photos - now its layers in photoshop. One thing is certain - draw an outside sketch then do this inside on the computer. Nor was it an outside sketch at the computer. Its a painted overlay of CCD image of Jupiter - the moons are equally dropped with a round brush tool - I should say - too diffused at that. I'm an illustrator. It is a fairly accurate detail level for perfect or near perfect seeing with an 8" .

The overlay photo edit is infact current illustrating among other ways.


Pete

Edited by azure1961p (12/11/13 09:08 AM)


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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6246583 - 12/11/13 09:11 AM

Quote:

Par - with all due respects, its an impossible feat, beyond superhuman to put that together with any accuracy on a rotating object. Its a digital image adjusted to approximate the visual impression. It could have been painted as a layer over an original image - but no other way. Its an age old technique. Back in the day artist painted on photos - now its layers in photoshop. One thing is certain - he did not sit there with a pencil - draw an outside sketch then do this inside on the computer. Nor was it an outside sketch at the computer. Its a painted overlay of CCD image of Jupiter - the moons are equally dropped with a round brush tool - I should say - too diffused at that. I'm an illustrator.

Pete




Pete,
I can appreciate the reply, and I do agree it does seem quite impossible, but I can assure you that it INDEED is completely a drawn image from scratch! The artist is a close friend of mine, and a mentor in some regard, that I have known since 1987. His techniques have evolved over the years beginning with simple pencil and paper, air brushing, and lastly modernized with computer automation.. The technique in that past that produced IDENTICAL results, those of what you see here in the image, were originally done by pencil and paper, scanned into a computer, and then simply by reversing the pixel colors from black and white using photoshop.

This was NOT drawn over an actual photo. A a visual memory of extreme accuracy, one that I can validate through my own visual memory of Jupiter, is exactly that. This is simply the work of a brilliant artist whose galvanized his techniques over multiple decades of practice.

If the artist were to give me his 'OK', I could show you scores of deep-sky and solar system objects produced through similar method.

Lastly, I've SEEN him draw these drawn out on paper with nothing but a pencil and smearing thumb.


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246590 - 12/11/13 09:13 AM

Then Adolf is indeed spectacular. As is the mirror! Thanks for clarifying.

Pete


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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6246603 - 12/11/13 09:20 AM

Quote:

Then Adolf is indeed spectacular. As is the mirror! Thanks for clarifying.

Pete




This is just the *proverbial* tip of the iceberg with respect to this dude's work man. Simply google his name...you'll see! The only thing I regret is that I didn't have my larger instrument out that night!


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EJN
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6246878 - 12/11/13 11:53 AM

Let me preface this by saying that I first met Adolf Schaller about 15 years
ago, and had known of his work since Cosmos first came out, and if you
have the book, many of the illustrations are by him. I've known Paul (the OP)
for about 20 years.

Paul sent me the image to have me guess before posting it here. Having seen
much of Adolf's more recent work, I was pretty sure it was a sketch. I confirmed
it 2 ways - I cropped just the disk of Jupiter and uploaded to Google image
search, and found no matching images.

Secondly - I adjusted the image using the curve tool in Photoshop, and
the limb darkening was too perfect for an image, I suspected it was done
with a gradient tool. I emailed Paul saying it was a sketch, & he confirmed it.
I suggested he post it here.

As for the amount of detail, Paul's 8" has a Parks mirror, I remounted the
optics in a new tube for him. I have used the scope, I would put the mirror
up against any Zambuto mirror. Which is why I sneer whenever anyone claims
that no other mirrors can possibly match Zambuto.

I have an 8" f/5 (GSO mirror, way above average) and last January, on a night of
exceptional seeing, saw this amount of detail on Jupiter with it. It was unreal.


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246880 - 12/11/13 11:54 AM

Yes nice work. Ill post my illustration of Titan sometime. At anyrate Im still of the strong notion he supplemented that illustration with a CCD image. I respect your finds here and I can paint dandy too. But there's a limit to how much a fella can record on a rotating disc with spots recorded down to a third of a second of arc. Even if it were extraudinarily easy to see every single detail - the placement would be quite awry.

I'm not doubting what you saw - he had steps added however that he may not have disclosed.

Don't hate me - you asked for opinions!

And not to detract from his work. I see a different origin.

Pete


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EJN
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6246887 - 12/11/13 12:00 PM

See post directly above yours.

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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: EJN]
      #6246912 - 12/11/13 12:21 PM

Below is some of his work. Im looking for his tecnique, I'm pretty sure this was not pencil and finger rubbing. No doubt at all about his skill and God given abilities. But to render something that beautiful takes more than perfect seeing and savant like memory.

http://www.planetary.org/connect/our-experts/profiles/adolf-schaller.html

Ivam not doubting the quality of the Parks mirror, the conditions, nor the skill of anyone involved. And I am even sure its a sketch. Or better yet, a rendition. I beluce this because of the technical argument concerning the tiny northern oval near the limb above. It is very very unlikely any one can even see it there. Yet its drawn perfectly in the sketch.

What seems to be happening is some discourse over what constitutes a sketch. It likely is an assisted sketch, not one drawn from memory or real time. There are so many details that even a perfect aperture and perfect observer most likely could not see nor note and sketch to such precision in the 30 minute window useful for observing and sketching Jupiter.

He has done other illustrations. One is Neptune. Certainly that was not a visual pencil and finger rub sketch made from memory using a perfect 8" scope on a perfect night.

His sketch work is utterly stunning, regardless.

Edited by Asbytec (12/11/13 12:38 PM)


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6246971 - 12/11/13 12:49 PM

Thanks again for the clarifying EJN. I too have a dandy PARKS mirror - truly. On those nights - the details is undrawable but that's me. I think the awe just floors me!!!! At anyrate thanks for taking the time to clarify - Ive always appreciated your input.

Pete


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