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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6247122 - 12/11/13 01:57 PM

Quote:

BBut to render something that beautiful takes more than perfect seeing and savant like memory.


What seems to be happening is some discourse over what constitutes a sketch. It likely is an assisted sketch, not one drawn from memory or real time.

He has done other illustrations. One is Neptune. Certainly that was not a visual pencil and finger rub sketch made from memory using a perfect 8" scope on a perfect night.

His sketch work is utterly stunning, regardless.




I can assure you sir as a first hand witness to the artist at work, (I was there and have no reason to deceive) it's ONLY assisted through Photoshop after its been scanned. This image was created in roughly an hour within several hours of casual, active, real-time observing. The temperature that night was quite cold, roughly 0 with wind chills significantly below that.. We could only handle 30 minutes or so of observing at a time. We made three distinct, roughly 30 minute sessions as Jupiter rose higher in the sky.

It was AWESOME I might add! We had a ton of fun, ESPECIALLY when the atmosphere is so agreeable...Most of the time for moments we stood in disbelief as to what we were seeing. It's totally cool when you can experience your equipment operating close to its threshold of performance..its rare man...

Edited by Paul R. (12/11/13 02:14 PM)


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nirvanix
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: Saskatoon, SK
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6247246 - 12/11/13 03:03 PM

I've seen that level of detail naked eye in my 10" dob on nights of 9+ seeing. When you can see detail in the GRS you've got a good night and good equipment. My compliments to the artist.

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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6247268 - 12/11/13 03:14 PM

Quote:

. When you can see detail in the GRS you've got a good night and good equipment.




AND I might add..do you not only see it's satellites as distinct discs, but also to discern variations in size! The image ALSO depicts this experience of that night. With that comfortable, high performance Delos eyepiece, it truly was like looking out an open window into space. I LOVE when that happens which is almost never around here! UGH...


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David Gray
sage
*****

Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Co. Durham UK
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6247282 - 12/11/13 03:18 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

Is there perhaps an error with the date/time??

Apart from the GRS not being on the disk at 20:00 UT on that date (or 20:40) Ganymede is at the former UT.

WinJUPOS shows the situation; just recently downloaded latest version so should be right. GRS is somewhere near L2 200º currently not that I have looked for a while.


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EJN
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/01/05

Loc: 53 miles west of Venus
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: David Gray]
      #6247299 - 12/11/13 03:25 PM

Quote:

Is there perhaps an error with the date/time??




Only with yours.

It is at ~ 0200 Central Standard Time (US & Canada), or 0800 UT.
You are off by 12 hours


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David Gray
sage
*****

Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Co. Durham UK
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: EJN]
      #6247309 - 12/11/13 03:29 PM Attachment (5 downloads)

Cant believe I fell into that one - comes of doing things on the run
Deepest apologies.......!!

Back to what I'm supposed to be doing.

Cheers

Edit Note: But GRS still does not square with WinJUPOS or latest imagery - which does!


http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk13/j131206z.htm

Edited by David Gray (12/11/13 03:49 PM)


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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: EJN]
      #6247318 - 12/11/13 03:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Is there perhaps an error with the date/time??




Only with yours.

It is at ~ 0200 Central Standard Time (US & Canada), or 0800 UT.
You are off by 12 hours






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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6247328 - 12/11/13 03:40 PM

Quote:

AND I might add..do you not only see it's satellites as distinct discs, but also to discern variations in size!




That actually doesn't take all that big a scope to do. I can do it in my 85mm Zeiss apo, when the seeing is good.

But I am of course nowhere near that level of disk detail in the sketch, with a scope that small. I've seen near the same level of detail on a very steady night in a friend's 178mm ED apo at 320x and 400x, using some very crisp König eyepieces.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: David Gray]
      #6247330 - 12/11/13 03:41 PM

Quote:

Cant believe I fell into that one - comes of doing things on the run
Deepest apologies.......!!

Back to what I'm supposed to be doing.

Cheers

Edit Note:
But GRS still does not square with WinJUPOS or latest imagery - which does!




The time as listed in the illustration is approximate. We observed Jupiter from about 8pm CST to about 4am CST (12/6)..The actual image as depicted occurred somewhere between 1-2am CST.


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6247335 - 12/11/13 03:43 PM

BTW, here's another artist that records an incredible amount of details on Jupiter, although his sketching technique is very different:

Main page: http://fredburgeot.fr/

Jupiter page: http://picasaweb.google.com/101134302181024755891/Jupiter#

Notice that many of the most detailed sketches are made with a C9.25 and binoviewer!


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6247352 - 12/11/13 03:50 PM

And yet another: http://www.lesia.obspm.fr/perso/nicolas-biver/

Jupiter observations: http://www.lesia.obspm.fr/perso/nicolas-biver/jupiternews.html

Direct link to some Jupiter drawings: http://www.lesia.obspm.fr/perso/nicolas-biver/JUPITER/jup1911-20112011.jpg


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6247360 - 12/11/13 03:55 PM

Nice attempts, good detail and information, but extremely amateur in comparison...

Adolf Schaller is hands down the Franz Liszt of astronomical artists today...NO ONE comes even close man! (that I know of anyway)


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6247372 - 12/11/13 04:00 PM

Quote:

Nice attempts, good detail and information, but extremely amateur in comparison..




I merely tried to support the original image, by showing that there are others out there who also see a tremendous amount of details on the planets.

Before the drawing in the opening post, I considered, perhaps foolishly, I am but an amateur, that these French observers had made some of the finest drawings and observations I had seen. I frankly find your remark about their skills rude. Not everyone is a world-class artist.

My contribution to this thread is over.


Thomas, Denmark


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David Gray
sage
*****

Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Co. Durham UK
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6247410 - 12/11/13 04:19 PM

Quote:

The time as listed in the illustration is approximate. We observed Jupiter from about 8pm CST to about 4am CST (12/6)..The actual image as depicted occurred somewhere between 1-2am CST.




If it is presented as a work of art/illustration fair enough and superb.

In the 30 minutes (some say 10) or so that Jupiter (rotationally) allows for accurate placing of features at the eyepiece I could not hope to handle that level of detail - even in perfect conditions.

It is however good practice to record the mid-time of drawing to the nearest 5 minutes.

Cheers.


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EJN
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/01/05

Loc: 53 miles west of Venus
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: David Gray]
      #6247431 - 12/11/13 04:31 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

Quote:

Edit Note: But GRS still does not square with WinJUPOS or latest imagery - which does!




The depiction is probably closer to 0700 UT, also I noticed in your screenshot
you have your lat. & long.

I did this screenshot using 0700 UT and the lat. & long. NW of Chicago, where
I am, and is a few hours drive from Soldiers Grove WI where the observation
was made.


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David Gray
sage
*****

Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Co. Durham UK
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: EJN]
      #6247444 - 12/11/13 04:40 PM

Indeed: but UT is UT and independent of where we look from!

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EJN
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/01/05

Loc: 53 miles west of Venus
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: David Gray]
      #6247457 - 12/11/13 04:50 PM

True.

BTW - I had never heard of WinJUPOS until I saw your screenshot, so I downloaded
it & installed it. Pretty slick!


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David Gray
sage
*****

Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Co. Durham UK
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: EJN]
      #6247477 - 12/11/13 04:58 PM

Quote:

True.

BTW - I had never heard of WinJUPOS until I saw your screenshot, so I downloaded
it & installed it. Pretty slick!




Glad something good came from my cringe-worthy entrance here! Must change my very old a.m/p.m.(Timex) observatory clock for a 24 hour one

Cheers,
Dave.


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Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: David Gray]
      #6247910 - 12/11/13 09:31 PM

There is little discrepancy in the GRS position at about 0800UT on Dec 6, that puts the GRS between the limb and the central meridian at system I ~200. EJN seems to be correct, this was closer to 0700UT on that day. No biggie, close enough.

At first glance, no doubt, the image shows what can be seen in a very good 8" in very good seeing. But if you look very closely at the image, there are many details that simply cannot be seen well enough to sketch as accurately regardless of the skill of the observer, the conditions, or quality of the instrument.

It is a world class illustration, no doubt to some degree from memory, and it may well have been put together that fine night. But on the finest levels, it is not a sketch made during one 30 minute session (at that CM) at the eyepiece, of that I'm convinced. Additional 30 minute sessions during the night would show completely different face so are irrelevant to the longitude presented.

No doubt seeing was excellent, the scope is beautiful, the artist is world class, and the observation was memorable. No doubt Jupiter exhibits great detail in such an instrument in those conditions. I simply doubt it can be sketched from memory or from the eyepiece view with that level of low contrast, hi resolution detail by anybody in 30 minutes. It is a sketch, sure, but it's assisted (from memory or an image.) By the way, Jupiter rotates and it's winds blow too hard for memory to remain that current for more than a few days.

No doubt it is a sketch done on that night, /how/ it was accomplished is the topic I am having trouble buying into. The OP may well have seen him compose it, but missed something on how he composed such a detailed and accurate sketch. There are just too many small, low contrast details included that could not be seen by the human eye, memorized, and placed that accurately in such a short time without the assistance of a current image or accurate and current memory of detail seen either in an image or maybe at the eyepiece.

No doubt he made the wonderful sketch, per the original question posted. How he pulled it off is the only question, IMO. Regardless, it is still an inspiring piece of work - nothing is taken from that aspect of a very beautiful image.


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azure1961p
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6248030 - 12/11/13 10:48 PM

I can attest to that being all 8" aperture applicable under 9-10 Pickering. There's no question as to the level of detail - I for one couldn't begin to draw that in accurately that densely and again I'm hardly a stranger to representative art in a number of media. Though admittedly not digital.
I don't think there's an intent of deception at all here by any party. It IS a fine example of max detail through an 8" aperture though .

Pete


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