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Paul R.
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Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th.
      #6245588 - 12/10/13 07:38 PM Attachment (111 downloads)

The attached is an image of Jupiter a close friend of mine composed during a recent, all night observing session.

Is this a sketch or actual photo?

What do you think?


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statenislanddob
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6245614 - 12/10/13 07:48 PM

wow nice

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goodricke1
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6245616 - 12/10/13 07:48 PM

I think it's a sketch, doesn't quite have the 3-D effect of a photo... very good all the same

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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6245622 - 12/10/13 07:56 PM

Both. There's discrepencies here that tell me its seems like a composite image helped in a photo editing paint program.

- the moons show no hint of atmospheric refraction - this usually comes with excellent seeing. Then why are they blurry edged but Jupiter is sharper? Moreover - Jupiter pixelates when enlarged while the moons stay smooth. The colors are right however - Io being gold - but Ganymede should be nearly twice as large while in the pic its only marginally larger.

- the details portrayed are real. This - however attenuated digitally is based on a real CCD image. Sharpening reveals deeper and deeper details. A brute sketch would never go this deep into contrasts.

Its a very very nice naturalized CCD image of Jupiter - adjusted to approximate the visual impression and the moons are add on paint-ins.
Part of what makes it appear paint-like is the gamma applied which lightens the darker limbs where illumination falls off.

My .2. However you cut the cake its a beautiful image however. Kudos to the astronomer.

Pete

Edited by azure1961p (12/10/13 08:14 PM)


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6245886 - 12/10/13 09:55 PM

Since you asked the question, I am going to say that's a sketch because if it were am photo you wouldn't ask. It's a sketch and quite possibly the best one this observer has ever seen by anybody. I mean anybody. The colors are pretty much spot on, too.

What amazing clarity and detail for an 8" scope. Seeing and observing conditions must have been perfect. I'd say it's a sketch but it looks more like a photo.

During the best moments Jupiter looks something like that, but those moments are to quick to capture all that detail. And I could never (well, never say never) sketch that level of detail with that level of clarity. Well done, if it's a sketch.

How does he do that? What techniques?

Is it a hybrid as Pete says? Maybe...

Edited by Asbytec (12/10/13 10:18 PM)


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6245947 - 12/10/13 10:25 PM

Lol - Norme I looked for the technical argument - you went straight to psychology! Well done.

Pete


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John Boudreau
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6245949 - 12/10/13 10:27 PM

It's a photo. It even responds to regularly practiced sharpening routines. The planet and moons were either pasted onto a totally blackened background or the background was isolated in software and then darkened.

However, it was taken closer to 0840 UT than the reported 0800UT.


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Rich (RLTYS)Moderator
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246404 - 12/11/13 06:42 AM

If it's sketch it's a darn good one.

Rich (RLTYS)


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Rich (RLTYS)]
      #6246441 - 12/11/13 07:19 AM Attachment (13 downloads)

Actually, I think it's an image.

Closer comparison with other images of that time show some amazing similarities, too similar, and some faint detail likely out of reach for an observer. The detail is not impossible, one might imagine it can be done by a very talented observer and reproduced by a skilled artist with a fantastic technique. The question is, do we have such a talented person? Maybe.

However, there are some features that are highly unlikely to be observed with the human eye. It's not visible at first glance at the image above on that scale, but closer inspection shows it. For example, in the NNTempB very near the preceding limb (left of center) there is a very faint oval. This oval shows in images of that date and meridian, too. It has a faint orangish hue with a darker ring around it. And there are other very small, faint details in the immediate area that I highly doubt almost any observer could see let along sketch correctly.

In my experience, something that faint that close to the limb is very hard to see, if at all. And in my experience, one certainly could not see the already faint object's very low contrast well enough to see that oval with is slightly brighter center and darker ring. And in my experience, even though Jupiter could look like that in an 8" scope under perfect conditions, to capture it that accurately while Jupiter is rotating is very difficult, at best.

So, playing the odds an oval like that could be observed near very much it's real state, especially very near the limb, is highly unlikely. Like DNA, if there is one in a million that could do it, this is more likely not that one in a million than it is that one in a million. Odds are, it's an image, IMO.

I don't rule it out a sketch conclusively and would certainly shake the hand of the observer if this were a real sketch. But, I feel absolutely safe betting the farm. It's an image.


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Paul R.
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Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246513 - 12/11/13 08:31 AM

This image, and level of detail, is EXACTLY what was seen that night. The seeing was about as close to a 10 as one can get. The instrument utilized was an equal match to the seeing. The scope that was used was a COMPLETELY rebuilt Parks OTA. In fact, the only thing surviving from it's original form is its absolutely superb full thickness Pyrex primary mirror. The mirror cell was replaced, the secondary was replaced with a Protostar quartz mirror and holder, and the tube was replaced with an over sized fiberglass tube to ensure proper baffling, and lastly, a *Feathertouch* focuser was added as well. At the end of this excellent optical train was a Televue 6mm Delos eyepiece.

Magnification was approx. 203X.

So, having said all of this the answer is that this is an artist's impression, or a sketch processed through Photoshop. The artist name who created this image as depicted in the illustration is Mr. Adolf Schaller, an Emmy awarding wining staff artist who worked with Carl Sagan during the Cosmos years.

Downright brilliant wouldn't ya say? The dude's work repeatedly over the past 2.5 decades that I have known him has consistently left me speechless..

Edited by Paul R. (12/11/13 09:17 AM)


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246534 - 12/11/13 08:44 AM

Paul, I was just coming back to say, if that's a sketch, it is certainly an inspiring one. Inspiring in the full meaning of the word, something to strive for in my own work.

I have no doubt Jupiter resembled the above image in perfect seeing with an excellent 8" aperture. And no doubt an Emmy award winning artist could pull off such a fantastic rendition. I'm not doubting any of that. But, when you say an, "artist's impression," is it an impression from a view through the eyepiece or of another image?

If you got a view like that, man, those are nights to live for. Congratulations. Living in the tropics surrounded by ocean, I can fully attest to the jaw dropping effect excellent seeing has when viewing Jupiter. Surely many of us can. I just wish for more skill at really getting it on paper more accurately.

Inspiring, yea, you bet.


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246547 - 12/11/13 08:51 AM

Par - with all due respects, its an impossible feat, beyond superhuman to put that together with any accuracy on a rotating object. Its a digital image adjusted to approximate the visual impression. It could have been painted as a layer over an original image - but no other way. Its an age old technique. Back in the day artist painted on photos - now its layers in photoshop. One thing is certain - draw an outside sketch then do this inside on the computer. Nor was it an outside sketch at the computer. Its a painted overlay of CCD image of Jupiter - the moons are equally dropped with a round brush tool - I should say - too diffused at that. I'm an illustrator. It is a fairly accurate detail level for perfect or near perfect seeing with an 8" .

The overlay photo edit is infact current illustrating among other ways.


Pete

Edited by azure1961p (12/11/13 09:08 AM)


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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6246583 - 12/11/13 09:11 AM

Quote:

Par - with all due respects, its an impossible feat, beyond superhuman to put that together with any accuracy on a rotating object. Its a digital image adjusted to approximate the visual impression. It could have been painted as a layer over an original image - but no other way. Its an age old technique. Back in the day artist painted on photos - now its layers in photoshop. One thing is certain - he did not sit there with a pencil - draw an outside sketch then do this inside on the computer. Nor was it an outside sketch at the computer. Its a painted overlay of CCD image of Jupiter - the moons are equally dropped with a round brush tool - I should say - too diffused at that. I'm an illustrator.

Pete




Pete,
I can appreciate the reply, and I do agree it does seem quite impossible, but I can assure you that it INDEED is completely a drawn image from scratch! The artist is a close friend of mine, and a mentor in some regard, that I have known since 1987. His techniques have evolved over the years beginning with simple pencil and paper, air brushing, and lastly modernized with computer automation.. The technique in that past that produced IDENTICAL results, those of what you see here in the image, were originally done by pencil and paper, scanned into a computer, and then simply by reversing the pixel colors from black and white using photoshop.

This was NOT drawn over an actual photo. A a visual memory of extreme accuracy, one that I can validate through my own visual memory of Jupiter, is exactly that. This is simply the work of a brilliant artist whose galvanized his techniques over multiple decades of practice.

If the artist were to give me his 'OK', I could show you scores of deep-sky and solar system objects produced through similar method.

Lastly, I've SEEN him draw these drawn out on paper with nothing but a pencil and smearing thumb.


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246590 - 12/11/13 09:13 AM

Then Adolf is indeed spectacular. As is the mirror! Thanks for clarifying.

Pete


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Paul R.
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Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6246603 - 12/11/13 09:20 AM

Quote:

Then Adolf is indeed spectacular. As is the mirror! Thanks for clarifying.

Pete




This is just the *proverbial* tip of the iceberg with respect to this dude's work man. Simply google his name...you'll see! The only thing I regret is that I didn't have my larger instrument out that night!


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EJN
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6246878 - 12/11/13 11:53 AM

Let me preface this by saying that I first met Adolf Schaller about 15 years
ago, and had known of his work since Cosmos first came out, and if you
have the book, many of the illustrations are by him. I've known Paul (the OP)
for about 20 years.

Paul sent me the image to have me guess before posting it here. Having seen
much of Adolf's more recent work, I was pretty sure it was a sketch. I confirmed
it 2 ways - I cropped just the disk of Jupiter and uploaded to Google image
search, and found no matching images.

Secondly - I adjusted the image using the curve tool in Photoshop, and
the limb darkening was too perfect for an image, I suspected it was done
with a gradient tool. I emailed Paul saying it was a sketch, & he confirmed it.
I suggested he post it here.

As for the amount of detail, Paul's 8" has a Parks mirror, I remounted the
optics in a new tube for him. I have used the scope, I would put the mirror
up against any Zambuto mirror. Which is why I sneer whenever anyone claims
that no other mirrors can possibly match Zambuto.

I have an 8" f/5 (GSO mirror, way above average) and last January, on a night of
exceptional seeing, saw this amount of detail on Jupiter with it. It was unreal.


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6246880 - 12/11/13 11:54 AM

Yes nice work. Ill post my illustration of Titan sometime. At anyrate Im still of the strong notion he supplemented that illustration with a CCD image. I respect your finds here and I can paint dandy too. But there's a limit to how much a fella can record on a rotating disc with spots recorded down to a third of a second of arc. Even if it were extraudinarily easy to see every single detail - the placement would be quite awry.

I'm not doubting what you saw - he had steps added however that he may not have disclosed.

Don't hate me - you asked for opinions!

And not to detract from his work. I see a different origin.

Pete


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EJN
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6246887 - 12/11/13 12:00 PM

See post directly above yours.

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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: EJN]
      #6246912 - 12/11/13 12:21 PM

Below is some of his work. Im looking for his tecnique, I'm pretty sure this was not pencil and finger rubbing. No doubt at all about his skill and God given abilities. But to render something that beautiful takes more than perfect seeing and savant like memory.

http://www.planetary.org/connect/our-experts/profiles/adolf-schaller.html

Ivam not doubting the quality of the Parks mirror, the conditions, nor the skill of anyone involved. And I am even sure its a sketch. Or better yet, a rendition. I beluce this because of the technical argument concerning the tiny northern oval near the limb above. It is very very unlikely any one can even see it there. Yet its drawn perfectly in the sketch.

What seems to be happening is some discourse over what constitutes a sketch. It likely is an assisted sketch, not one drawn from memory or real time. There are so many details that even a perfect aperture and perfect observer most likely could not see nor note and sketch to such precision in the 30 minute window useful for observing and sketching Jupiter.

He has done other illustrations. One is Neptune. Certainly that was not a visual pencil and finger rub sketch made from memory using a perfect 8" scope on a perfect night.

His sketch work is utterly stunning, regardless.

Edited by Asbytec (12/11/13 12:38 PM)


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6246971 - 12/11/13 12:49 PM

Thanks again for the clarifying EJN. I too have a dandy PARKS mirror - truly. On those nights - the details is undrawable but that's me. I think the awe just floors me!!!! At anyrate thanks for taking the time to clarify - Ive always appreciated your input.

Pete


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Paul R.
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Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6247122 - 12/11/13 01:57 PM

Quote:

BBut to render something that beautiful takes more than perfect seeing and savant like memory.


What seems to be happening is some discourse over what constitutes a sketch. It likely is an assisted sketch, not one drawn from memory or real time.

He has done other illustrations. One is Neptune. Certainly that was not a visual pencil and finger rub sketch made from memory using a perfect 8" scope on a perfect night.

His sketch work is utterly stunning, regardless.




I can assure you sir as a first hand witness to the artist at work, (I was there and have no reason to deceive) it's ONLY assisted through Photoshop after its been scanned. This image was created in roughly an hour within several hours of casual, active, real-time observing. The temperature that night was quite cold, roughly 0 with wind chills significantly below that.. We could only handle 30 minutes or so of observing at a time. We made three distinct, roughly 30 minute sessions as Jupiter rose higher in the sky.

It was AWESOME I might add! We had a ton of fun, ESPECIALLY when the atmosphere is so agreeable...Most of the time for moments we stood in disbelief as to what we were seeing. It's totally cool when you can experience your equipment operating close to its threshold of performance..its rare man...

Edited by Paul R. (12/11/13 02:14 PM)


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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6247246 - 12/11/13 03:03 PM

I've seen that level of detail naked eye in my 10" dob on nights of 9+ seeing. When you can see detail in the GRS you've got a good night and good equipment. My compliments to the artist.

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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6247268 - 12/11/13 03:14 PM

Quote:

. When you can see detail in the GRS you've got a good night and good equipment.




AND I might add..do you not only see it's satellites as distinct discs, but also to discern variations in size! The image ALSO depicts this experience of that night. With that comfortable, high performance Delos eyepiece, it truly was like looking out an open window into space. I LOVE when that happens which is almost never around here! UGH...


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David Gray
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6247282 - 12/11/13 03:18 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

Is there perhaps an error with the date/time??

Apart from the GRS not being on the disk at 20:00 UT on that date (or 20:40) Ganymede is at the former UT.

WinJUPOS shows the situation; just recently downloaded latest version so should be right. GRS is somewhere near L2 200º currently not that I have looked for a while.


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EJN
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: David Gray]
      #6247299 - 12/11/13 03:25 PM

Quote:

Is there perhaps an error with the date/time??




Only with yours.

It is at ~ 0200 Central Standard Time (US & Canada), or 0800 UT.
You are off by 12 hours


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David Gray
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: EJN]
      #6247309 - 12/11/13 03:29 PM Attachment (5 downloads)

Cant believe I fell into that one - comes of doing things on the run
Deepest apologies.......!!

Back to what I'm supposed to be doing.

Cheers

Edit Note: But GRS still does not square with WinJUPOS or latest imagery - which does!


http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk13/j131206z.htm

Edited by David Gray (12/11/13 03:49 PM)


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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: EJN]
      #6247318 - 12/11/13 03:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Is there perhaps an error with the date/time??




Only with yours.

It is at ~ 0200 Central Standard Time (US & Canada), or 0800 UT.
You are off by 12 hours






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Astrojensen
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6247328 - 12/11/13 03:40 PM

Quote:

AND I might add..do you not only see it's satellites as distinct discs, but also to discern variations in size!




That actually doesn't take all that big a scope to do. I can do it in my 85mm Zeiss apo, when the seeing is good.

But I am of course nowhere near that level of disk detail in the sketch, with a scope that small. I've seen near the same level of detail on a very steady night in a friend's 178mm ED apo at 320x and 400x, using some very crisp König eyepieces.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Paul R.
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/08/07

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: David Gray]
      #6247330 - 12/11/13 03:41 PM

Quote:

Cant believe I fell into that one - comes of doing things on the run
Deepest apologies.......!!

Back to what I'm supposed to be doing.

Cheers

Edit Note:
But GRS still does not square with WinJUPOS or latest imagery - which does!




The time as listed in the illustration is approximate. We observed Jupiter from about 8pm CST to about 4am CST (12/6)..The actual image as depicted occurred somewhere between 1-2am CST.


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Astrojensen
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6247335 - 12/11/13 03:43 PM

BTW, here's another artist that records an incredible amount of details on Jupiter, although his sketching technique is very different:

Main page: http://fredburgeot.fr/

Jupiter page: http://picasaweb.google.com/101134302181024755891/Jupiter#

Notice that many of the most detailed sketches are made with a C9.25 and binoviewer!


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Astrojensen
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6247352 - 12/11/13 03:50 PM

And yet another: http://www.lesia.obspm.fr/perso/nicolas-biver/

Jupiter observations: http://www.lesia.obspm.fr/perso/nicolas-biver/jupiternews.html

Direct link to some Jupiter drawings: http://www.lesia.obspm.fr/perso/nicolas-biver/JUPITER/jup1911-20112011.jpg


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Paul R.
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6247360 - 12/11/13 03:55 PM

Nice attempts, good detail and information, but extremely amateur in comparison...

Adolf Schaller is hands down the Franz Liszt of astronomical artists today...NO ONE comes even close man! (that I know of anyway)


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Astrojensen
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6247372 - 12/11/13 04:00 PM

Quote:

Nice attempts, good detail and information, but extremely amateur in comparison..




I merely tried to support the original image, by showing that there are others out there who also see a tremendous amount of details on the planets.

Before the drawing in the opening post, I considered, perhaps foolishly, I am but an amateur, that these French observers had made some of the finest drawings and observations I had seen. I frankly find your remark about their skills rude. Not everyone is a world-class artist.

My contribution to this thread is over.


Thomas, Denmark


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David Gray
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6247410 - 12/11/13 04:19 PM

Quote:

The time as listed in the illustration is approximate. We observed Jupiter from about 8pm CST to about 4am CST (12/6)..The actual image as depicted occurred somewhere between 1-2am CST.




If it is presented as a work of art/illustration fair enough and superb.

In the 30 minutes (some say 10) or so that Jupiter (rotationally) allows for accurate placing of features at the eyepiece I could not hope to handle that level of detail - even in perfect conditions.

It is however good practice to record the mid-time of drawing to the nearest 5 minutes.

Cheers.


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EJN
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: David Gray]
      #6247431 - 12/11/13 04:31 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

Quote:

Edit Note: But GRS still does not square with WinJUPOS or latest imagery - which does!




The depiction is probably closer to 0700 UT, also I noticed in your screenshot
you have your lat. & long.

I did this screenshot using 0700 UT and the lat. & long. NW of Chicago, where
I am, and is a few hours drive from Soldiers Grove WI where the observation
was made.


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David Gray
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: EJN]
      #6247444 - 12/11/13 04:40 PM

Indeed: but UT is UT and independent of where we look from!

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EJN
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: David Gray]
      #6247457 - 12/11/13 04:50 PM

True.

BTW - I had never heard of WinJUPOS until I saw your screenshot, so I downloaded
it & installed it. Pretty slick!


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David Gray
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: EJN]
      #6247477 - 12/11/13 04:58 PM

Quote:

True.

BTW - I had never heard of WinJUPOS until I saw your screenshot, so I downloaded
it & installed it. Pretty slick!




Glad something good came from my cringe-worthy entrance here! Must change my very old a.m/p.m.(Timex) observatory clock for a 24 hour one

Cheers,
Dave.


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: David Gray]
      #6247910 - 12/11/13 09:31 PM

There is little discrepancy in the GRS position at about 0800UT on Dec 6, that puts the GRS between the limb and the central meridian at system I ~200. EJN seems to be correct, this was closer to 0700UT on that day. No biggie, close enough.

At first glance, no doubt, the image shows what can be seen in a very good 8" in very good seeing. But if you look very closely at the image, there are many details that simply cannot be seen well enough to sketch as accurately regardless of the skill of the observer, the conditions, or quality of the instrument.

It is a world class illustration, no doubt to some degree from memory, and it may well have been put together that fine night. But on the finest levels, it is not a sketch made during one 30 minute session (at that CM) at the eyepiece, of that I'm convinced. Additional 30 minute sessions during the night would show completely different face so are irrelevant to the longitude presented.

No doubt seeing was excellent, the scope is beautiful, the artist is world class, and the observation was memorable. No doubt Jupiter exhibits great detail in such an instrument in those conditions. I simply doubt it can be sketched from memory or from the eyepiece view with that level of low contrast, hi resolution detail by anybody in 30 minutes. It is a sketch, sure, but it's assisted (from memory or an image.) By the way, Jupiter rotates and it's winds blow too hard for memory to remain that current for more than a few days.

No doubt it is a sketch done on that night, /how/ it was accomplished is the topic I am having trouble buying into. The OP may well have seen him compose it, but missed something on how he composed such a detailed and accurate sketch. There are just too many small, low contrast details included that could not be seen by the human eye, memorized, and placed that accurately in such a short time without the assistance of a current image or accurate and current memory of detail seen either in an image or maybe at the eyepiece.

No doubt he made the wonderful sketch, per the original question posted. How he pulled it off is the only question, IMO. Regardless, it is still an inspiring piece of work - nothing is taken from that aspect of a very beautiful image.


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6248030 - 12/11/13 10:48 PM

I can attest to that being all 8" aperture applicable under 9-10 Pickering. There's no question as to the level of detail - I for one couldn't begin to draw that in accurately that densely and again I'm hardly a stranger to representative art in a number of media. Though admittedly not digital.
I don't think there's an intent of deception at all here by any party. It IS a fine example of max detail through an 8" aperture though .

Pete


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Paul R.
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6248087 - 12/11/13 11:15 PM

Exactly Pete...the person who composed this image is well versed in this specific exercise. I do not know how to more clearly state that this is COMPLETELY by memory with only the assistance of Photoshop as the tool of choice.

I forgot two other points to make. First of all it should be known that the sky was not extremely clear. There was actually an extremely thin stratus layer of clouds that actually *improved* the view by acting as a very opaque filter minimizing the overt glare of which usually inhibits visual acuity while observing such a bright object like Jupiter.

I also wanted to point out to those *doubting Thomas* whom still think this is an actual image or photograph, that if it WAS a photograph, do you think you could image its satellites at their apparent distances utilizing the focal length you would need to render such planetary/image scale?

NO...

This is a drawing entirely from memory composed by a brilliant artist of an experience in where everything that could go right in fact actually did.


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6248178 - 12/12/13 12:22 AM

Quote:

I don't think there's an intent of deception at all here by any party. It IS a fine example of max detail through an 8" aperture though.




Yea, Pete, there's no conspiracy here. And the level of detail visible in a good 8" is astounding on a good night and easily resembles the initial smaller scale image. And it can be sketched, very likely perfectly by a skilled artist and observer.

My doubting Thomas lies only in the level of finer low contrast detail seen in places it can't be seen, such as near the limb, despite the conditions, the instrument, and the observer. Some of it can't be seen, yet it appears in the sketch. This speaks to a rapidly outdated and precise memory being updated that night or the use of an image to get every bit of minutia that the eye will miss. Only then can it be observed and sketched in.

Anyway, I am not trying to steal anyone's thunder. Again, it's a very inspiring piece of work for me, personally, as a digital sketcher. I just want to know how the sketch was rendered, this level of fine low contrast detail is beyond a 30 minute view in the eyepiece. That's all I'm saying. Everything else is fine.

Quote:

The attached is an image of Jupiter a close friend of mine composed during a recent, all night observing session.




It's not worth beating into the ground to set the record straight on how such a fine, highly detailed sketch was achieved. Again, his illustration of Neptune is even more stunning, but that was not an telescopic observation on a fine night with a flawless instrument, either.

Anyway, I do appreciate Paul posting the sketch. It's beautiful in it's own right. With that, that's my final word on the subject...hopefully.

Edited by Asbytec (12/12/13 12:35 AM)


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6248218 - 12/12/13 01:02 AM

Quote:

Exactly Pete...the person who composed this image is well versed in this specific exercise. I do not know how to more clearly state that this is COMPLETELY by memory with only the assistance of Photoshop as the tool of choice.

I forgot two other points to make. First of all it should be known that the sky was not extremely clear. There was actually an extremely thin stratus layer of clouds that actually *improved* the view by acting as a very opaque filter minimizing the overt glare of which usually inhibits visual acuity while observing such a bright object like Jupiter.

I also wanted to point out to those *doubting Thomas* whom still think this is an actual image or photograph, that if it WAS a photograph, do you think you could image its satellites at their apparent distances utilizing the focal length you would need to render such planetary/image scale?

NO...

This is a drawing entirely from memory composed by a brilliant artist of an experience in where everything that could go right in fact actually did.




Paul no one can get that many points if detail correct by memory. I'm an artist too my friend and none too shabby. You can't do that from memory or in realtime and have that much threshold detail accurately placed.

Again though - opinions were asked - and were given. Don't be hatin'!!!

Pete


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azure1961p
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6248223 - 12/12/13 01:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

. When you can see detail in the GRS you've got a good night and good equipment.




AND I might add..do you not only see it's satellites as distinct discs, but also to discern variations in size! The image ALSO depicts this experience of that night. With that comfortable, high performance Delos eyepiece, it truly was like looking out an open window into space. I LOVE when that happens which is almost never around here! UGH...




You'd also see Io smaller than he drew it and Ganymede would certainly have shown details.

Pete


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CPellier
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6248735 - 12/12/13 10:40 AM

Quote:

Nice attempts, good detail and information, but extremely amateur in comparison...

Adolf Schaller is hands down the Franz Liszt of astronomical artists today...NO ONE comes even close man! (that I know of anyway)




The comparison is not relevant. Burgeot and Biver's drawings are astronomical views of the planets, I mean realistic. You can actually compare them with true CCD images if you find some (I did the comparison several times) . Schaller's paintings are purely artistical and imaginary (no critic here). The purpose is just not the same.


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stanislas-jean
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: CPellier]
      #6248748 - 12/12/13 10:48 AM

Fully agree.
A document with data (in other words data measured) is not a paint.
Stanislas-Jean


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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6248786 - 12/12/13 11:04 AM

Quote:


Paul no one can get that many points if detail correct by memory. I'm an artist too my friend and none too shabby. You can't do that from memory or in realtime and have that much threshold detail accurately placed.

Again though - opinions were asked - and were given. Don't be hatin'!!!

Pete




I'd have to disagree here. I saw a documentary about a young man in Europe with just such an incredible talent. He was flown over Paris in a helicopter for about a half hour then set to work on a large canvas reproducing every single detail that his eyes took in on that flyover. Every window, brick, nook and cranny on every building, and all other details were reproduced in his rendering without omission or error. Such is the human mind - at least some of them!

I think his name is Stephen Wiltshire.


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6248864 - 12/12/13 11:37 AM

There are differences between observations and art. This is great art and many observers, especially me, are not world class artists. They do have different purposes but both often involve sketches.

No doubt some human capabilities are simply astounding. Such talent could manifest as memory, art, or observing. Rarely do such skills come in bunches. Its possible someone could remember every nook and crany of Paris. But only if he can see it.

The op is a world class illustration, but not an observation through an 8" even though at a glance it looks like what a good 8" will show. Its a memorable night spent with a close, talented friend and a very nice scope under ideal conditions. Its a great story and a memory to cherish culminating in a wonderful illustration many of us mistook for an image.

Edited by Asbytec (12/13/13 06:10 AM)


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David Gray
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6248907 - 12/12/13 12:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Paul no one can get that many points if detail correct by memory. I'm an artist too my friend and none too shabby. You can't do that from memory or in realtime and have that much threshold detail accurately placed.



Again though - opinions were asked - and were given. Don't be hatin'!!!

Pete




I'd have to disagree here. I saw a documentary about a young man in Europe with just such an incredible talent. He was flown over Paris in a helicopter for about a half hour then set to work on a large canvas reproducing every single detail that his eyes took in on that flyover. Every window, brick, nook and cranny on every building, and all other details were reproduced in his rendering without omission or error. Such is the human mind - at least some of them!

I think his name is Stephen Wiltshire.




Yes saw him on TV too - some years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wiltshire

Cheers.


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Paul R.
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: CPellier]
      #6248963 - 12/12/13 12:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Nice attempts, good detail and information, but extremely amateur in comparison...

Adolf Schaller is hands down the Franz Liszt of astronomical artists today...NO ONE comes even close man! (that I know of anyway)




The comparison is not relevant. Burgeot and Biver's drawings are astronomical Schaller's paintings are purely artistical and imaginary (no critic here). The purpose is just not the same.




Oh geezz, crack me up..Did you happen to even LOOK at the original image in this thread? You are going to tell me that its not realistic? You couldn't have as if you did, then you've never seen reality...

Evidently you have clue what you're talking about. Or, it is possible that I don't understand your point. Schaller's impressions are premised in scientific accuracy. This has been his forte since his beginnings with the Cosmos series dating back to 1979. I can only assume that you've never seen his work, and certainly not the image in this thread!

Those other sketches that were posted in thread, if that is what you are referring to, and designed to illustrate actual, or empirical information. I get that. Schaller's are as well..and intended to not only ACCURATELY describe empirically the observation, but to look as real as possible. Is being 'artistic' not being 'realistic'? Is THAT what you are trying to convey? Are we going to now discuss semantics with respect to the word 'artistic'? Schaller's motivations FIRST for the creation of this image was to accurately describe how Jupiter really looked that night. And let me tell you IT DOES. Are you going to tell me that because it doesn't look 'cartoonish' like those other Jupiter drawings (in comparison) that it simply cannot be accurate? NUTS! Of course it can and it does..and is far greater in all aspects then those other drawings PRECISELY because it appears real! Others here continue to doubt that the detail as shown couldn't possibly have been created from memory. That's nuts! That's synonymous with someone telling you what you are seeing when its in direct contradiction to what YOU KNOW you are seeing. I HATE that notion. Its ignorant.

Sorry for the rant...that post struck an F#m with me..a key of aggression.

Edited by Paul R. (12/12/13 01:23 PM)


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CPellier
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6249113 - 12/12/13 01:45 PM

Don't go mad at me, it was by no mean an agression . The picture on the front page is indeed realistic in the sense that it reproduce quite closely the visual feeling at the eyepiece.
But his other painting you can see on the web are on the pure artistic views (again this is not a critic word). I was reacting in comparisons with those paintings.
Burgeot and Biver try to render all possible details they see at the eyepiece, more the way would do a CCD camera with processing. In that sense they are scientific, but not artistic, and do not pretend to render the view at the eyepiece. But they are accurate considering the reality of details, and the rendering of colors (especially Burgeot's)


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stanislas-jean
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6249258 - 12/12/13 02:42 PM

It is always some risks to employ some software for generating drawings, sketches at the eyepiece.
Your picture of your 1st post is a little too soft, not representing what is seen at an eyepiece with moltened features of different colors of different contrasts and different intensities right located.
Precisely these are these aspects in the report that are interresting to note in order to catch data for location on the disk, photometry of features in different color channels or even in white light.
The picture is beautiful but not enough realistic of what there is on.
I would say this is a warm picture for sure but a "cold " picture is rather needed for studies. This is a difficult exercise to be undertaken in diffrent manners with regards to the subject to be studied.
The reinforcement of the contrasts is not a problem, respect of the scaling of the contrasts or the tones is more the subject to be respected.
A lot of factors are influencing this scaling, the observer and the scope in use for a first approach.
On a tiny disk we try to perform astrometry and photometry applied on features so small in order to collect data.
How to represent the tiny contrasts of Uranus of about 1-2% levels on a sketch, features at the right location with the actual contrast scaling? Similar for Venus, also Mars to-day on the un-featured zone seen this morning, etc...
Personally I make all at the eyepiece, no draft, for avoiding modifications later.
I knew in past a swiss observer with no ability to draw, but his sketches were acurate, with the right locations, adequate tones scaling. Features were only lines, dots, circle curves,..., basic shapes only. Data collected gave the best drift charts of features on Jupiter. Just matter of methodology and methods in use for measurement performance.
Stanislas-Jean


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: stanislas-jean]
      #6249942 - 12/12/13 09:34 PM

Quote:

...and intended to not only ACCURATELY describe empirically the observation, but to look as real as possible...Schaller's motivations FIRST for the creation of this image was to accurately describe how Jupiter really looked that night. And let me tell you IT DOES.



It does, absolutely resemble Jupiter in an 8" scope when you look at his sketch. No doubt. I observe Jupiter almost nightly in excellent seeing - religiously, metaphorically and literally speaking. I can vouch for the appearance of the sketch, it is as you say. At a glance, it is the most accurate, beautiful, and realistic sketch I have seen of Jupiter by anybody.

You experienced a wonderful, and most memorable night with Jupiter and a close friend. I get that and believe you and am happy for you without condition. It's a wonderful story. The rub is when you assert the OP sketch was what was seen that night. It more resembles an image (per the OP challenge to distinguish the difference) with the level of fine low contrast detail and hues rendered beyond the cursory appearance of the sketch.

On closer inspection there are features that, I'm sorry, just cannot be seen to that level of accuracy in terms of hues portrayed and the positions plotted. Yet these features are included in the sketch accurately and with the proper hues (or close enough). This means it was certainly a sketch, a wonderful illustration, but not an observation of Jupiter on that night. In this sense it looses it's realism as an observation but excels with realism as an illustration. Few people could produce such fine work.

The other observations above are far more realistic in terms of being the type of sketch made by an observer during an observation. They lack the beauty of the OP, but they accurately portray what an observer will render. And, in this sense, they are quite good and more realistic as a sketch accompanying an observation by a planetary observer at the eyepiece.

So, it is a sketch, we can appreciate that immensely. But it was not a sketch made at the eyepiece. It was assisted in some way. However, this in no way detracts from it's beauty and scientific accuracy, it's just not realistic in what was seen at the eyepiece that night by anybody.


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Paul R.
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6250142 - 12/13/13 12:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

...and intended to not only ACCURATELY describe empirically the observation, but to look as real as possible...Schaller's motivations FIRST for the creation of this image was to accurately describe how Jupiter really looked that night. And let me tell you IT DOES.



It does, absolutely resemble Jupiter in an 8" scope when you look at his sketch. No doubt. I observe Jupiter almost nightly in excellent seeing - religiously, metaphorically and literally speaking. I can vouch for the appearance of the sketch, it is as you say. At a glance, it is the most accurate, beautiful, and realistic sketch I have seen of Jupiter by anybody.

You experienced a wonderful, and most memorable night with Jupiter and a close friend. I get that and believe you and am happy for you without condition. It's a wonderful story. The rub is when you assert the OP sketch was what was seen that night. It more resembles an image (per the OP challenge to distinguish the difference) with the level of fine low contrast detail and hues rendered beyond the cursory appearance of the sketch.

On closer inspection there are features that, I'm sorry, just cannot be seen to that level of accuracy in terms of hues portrayed and the positions plotted. Yet these features are included in the sketch accurately and with the proper hues (or close enough). This means it was certainly a sketch, a wonderful illustration, but not an observation of Jupiter on that night. In this sense it looses it's realism as an observation but excels with realism as an illustration. Few people could produce such fine work.

The other observations above are far more realistic in terms of being the type of sketch made by an observer during an observation. They lack the beauty of the OP, but they accurately portray what an observer will render. And, in this sense, they are quite good and more realistic as a sketch accompanying an observation by a planetary observer at the eyepiece.

So, it is a sketch, we can appreciate that immensely. But it was not a sketch made at the eyepiece. It was assisted in some way. However, this in no way detracts from it's beauty and scientific accuracy, it's just not realistic in what was seen at the eyepiece that night by anybody.




UGH..LOL...You win...


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6250152 - 12/13/13 12:18 AM

LOL...not about winning Paul, I'm just a little over anal retentive on the record of how that wonderful sketch came about and whether it was an image or a sketch since you asked. My apologies for being a retentive Jupiter observer, you know...I wish I was that good at rendering Jupiter.

Plus, being a moderate, it's easy to see all sides of a story...the other half of the story, cuz moderates are in the middle. But, it comes at a price of alienating almost everyone else. I run into this all the time, this guy and that guy are both right.

You actually win having a wonderful experience that night. Observing alone, I do not get to share those great moments with someone knowledgeable and appreciative of what we see. Cherish the moment, I congratulate you.

My Regards,
A moderate, anal retentive Jupiter observer who can't sketch that well...

Edited by Asbytec (12/13/13 12:24 AM)


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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6250159 - 12/13/13 12:30 AM

Quote:


On closer inspection there are features that, I'm sorry, just cannot be seen to that level of accuracy in terms of hues portrayed and the positions plotted. Yet these features are included in the sketch accurately and with the proper hues (or close enough). This means it was certainly a sketch, a wonderful illustration, but not an observation of Jupiter on that night. In this sense it looses it's realism as an observation but excels with realism as an illustration. Few people could produce such fine work.




It seems what you're really saying is that you've never seen this level of detail and color hue at the eyepiece so no one else has? I state with complete sincerity that every detail and hue in that sketch and more I've been able to observe in an excellent large aperature dob on nights of great seeing.

As for finishing the sketch, I'm no artist but it seems like there could be work done after the observing to achieve the quality represented?


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6250165 - 12/13/13 12:39 AM Attachment (5 downloads)

Quote:

[It seems what you're really saying is that you've never seen this level of detail and color hue at the eyepiece so no one else has? I state with complete sincerity that every detail and hue in that sketch and more I've been able to observe in an excellent large aperture dob on nights of great seeing.




Yes, I am saying I have never seen such a level of detail in a 6" aperture, close enough to an 8" aperture, and I have diffraction limited seeing and much experience with Jupiter. I am highly doubtful anyone can see such things, such as that oval in the north (LRS-1) on the preceding limb. Both in real world experience and theoretically, it's very likely not possible to observe that object in that location and get the hues almost perfect as well as it's position. Yes. And a plethora of other low contrast, small details that show in the sketch, as well, which give it an image like quality. Only an image can deliver that level of resolution, very unlikely visual can deliver it.

I have a challenge for you with a modest aperture of 6" to 8 inches. Observe oval BA and tell me what you see. Or sketch it. Oval BA is currently embedded in darker cloud. I nearly blew an eyeball out just to see it at all, it's much harder than last year. If you can sketch that much larger feature accurately, even on the central meridian, with hue and position being even close, to include the outer darker cloud structure with as much clarity as the oval feature on the northern limb, I will publicly eat crow and hand bathe your feet. And I like my crow best served cold, please.

Quote:

...so no one else has?



I learned long ago never to tell people what they can nor cannot see. I avoid that by classifying objects, such as that northern oval, as to whether they are likely to be seen or not in a given aperture. This one might present itself as, more or less, a dim smudge on the meridian in an 8" scope. Detectable? Yea, okay, maybe so. Put it on the limb and the probability of detection drops considerably. Expecting to see hue and structure on the limb of an already low contrast oval, the probability drops so low as to have practically a zero chance of observing it that well in a modest aperture by anybody, including myself. Observe the larger oval BA feature and see for yourself how difficult it is on the meridian then estimate how much more difficult this small northern oval will be on the limb.

I am talking about the detail extracted from the sketch below, primarily that oval which is exactly where it should be according to images of that same date and time. It is all over the OP image, even in the GRS trailing wake. No way. But again, this detail is what gives his sketch that admirable and inspiring image-like quality. It just wasn't done from the eyepiece, that's all.

Edited by Asbytec (12/13/13 04:07 AM)


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stanislas-jean
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6250268 - 12/13/13 04:05 AM

I think this is very optimistic views.
Frankly, this is not what is captured at the eyepiece.
In an 8" on fix images you get so many details on diffrent tones and colors, and sizes with different shapes, etc...
I think you will convince us when the data collected will be compared with others. I donot speak about the locations of the features on one sketch but on a serie performed on a period in order to draw drift charts, tones/ contrast variation charts because we draw or image features for collecting data and then data over a year of observation, over a synodic period of a planet, so for trying to get long term variations and data that represents the planet itself with its own characteristics.
That is an other story. Until this such exercise is not achieved, this is simple curiosity.
In the clubs here the tendency is to show pictures of planets on showrooms as we can visit exposition of paints. This is interresting for making some vocation to be astronomer or simple amateur but this bring no data for construction.
Every thing is done with strong efforts and not for free and sometimes.
Frankly in a respectable 8" there are more details strongly more contrasted.
Stanislas-Jean


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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: stanislas-jean]
      #6250330 - 12/13/13 06:17 AM

Asbytec, it seems to me you are saying the sketch was made from (or augmented from) looking at photo? Well, I wasn't there so I can't speak to that.

If the artist had provided a sketch like this I'd tend to agree!

jupiter


As for me, I'm one of those folks that can see the phases of Venus naked eye, but not sure if that translates to a better view at the eyepiece. Seems probable. If you look at that link I provided, you'll notice how the GRS goes from tan to rust in the center, but also that there is a darker brown splotchy/whirly pattern overlayed - well I've noted that at the eyepiece. It's very subtle but it's there. I always assumed everyone could see what I was seeing, maybe not.


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6250430 - 12/13/13 08:23 AM

Or memory, he reported has a great familiarity with Jupiter. That's totally understandable. But, yes, Jupiter looks much like the sketch originally posted, until you get right up and close. From there, it's probably an artists rendition. But that was the unclear part, how much of that sketch looked exactly like Jupiter? All of it?

I cannot see Venus as crescent with the unaided eye. Not sure why, never really tried. But it's just not there. Its way too bright, too much irradiance. So, yea, some folks have great perception and others less.

It's not difficult to notice some variations in hue within the GRS, but to notice some specific hues and some patterns is within reach with nice eyeballs and some aperture. Some folks can do it in a six inch, I cannot lock down those different hues into any specific pattern or swirl. So, that you can and I have difficulty highlights differences between observers and instruments (and conditions, too.) That's why differences between observers is so hard to pin down and talk with absolutes, as you know.

Seriously, though, next time you catch oval BA report back. I'd be curious to know how well it can be seen in your 10". No doubt better than my smaller scope, but how much better. It's one tough cookie right now making LRS-1 even tougher and likely beyond reach until aperture is sufficiently large. I'd love to know if you can grab LRS-1. I'd imagine you can away from the limb. I doubt a 6" could really get anything other than a faint, fleeting, indistinct smudge at best on the meridian. An 8" a little more. A 10" should do it a even easier. But how about hue and structure?

Anyway, I feel something like a heel in this thread. As a planetary observer I love discussing observations of Jove. I was intrigued and inspired by this guy's technique and wondered how he pulled off such a detailed sketch. So, I dug a little deep into it...and just think it's a wonderful sketch if not embellished with some sharp memory or maybe an image. If so, there is nothing wrong with that. It's scientifically accurate art.

To me, the real story is the wonderful evening spent with a great instrument in excellent conditions with a close friend and shared interests. That's so cool. One can imagine a cup of coffee sitting by the fireplace enjoying a few chuckles.

By the way, WOW! That image...did you do that in a 10"? (In jest... )

Edited by Asbytec (12/13/13 09:07 AM)


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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6250532 - 12/13/13 09:37 AM

You're not a heal Norme, more like a probing finger.

Actually this long thread has brought out a lot of useful information from all involved. You got to stir the pot to get the best flavor.


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Paul R.
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6250643 - 12/13/13 10:33 AM

Man, this experience, although exceptional, is just one of *a few* that has transpired over the years with my good friend Adolf. Bottom line the man has a photographic memory when it comes to such things. My memory, although very good, but not as photographic, concurs with this image. Yes, I can indeed see detail in the GRS, (when conditions merit..including a thin cloud layer to act as a filter or 50% twilight conditions) and many varying gradient of hue, color and contrast. Hell, I see color in the Andromeda galaxy with my 20" under very dark skies when the object is placed over head! My friend and I BOTH have superb color perception, and excellent all around visual acuity for such exercise. (although I am now beginning to need reading glasses..bummer )

I could post SCORES of both planetary and deep-sky sketches that have been produced over nearly two decades using 15, 20 and 8" apertures, and all of them are of the same quality and ACCURACY of the image shown here.

As was said earlier, Mr. Schaller is the Franz Liszt of astronomical artists!

I wish I could find a sketch created back in April 1999, the first close Mars opposition utilizing my then new 20" telescope. This one evening the conditions were nearly identical to what they were last week with the exception of the extreme cold. The view of Mars was downright mind blowing resembling Hubble's image on the cover of the month's Astronomy magazine. The upper atmospheric features were stunning including a deep, blue limb haze...of which allowed you to really see in 3-D like fashion that this was a terrestrial world with a sandy surface complete with a transparent, all enveloping atmosphere.

Another outstanding observation of that same evening was Venus. Adolf and I actually saw detail in the upper atmosphere of this planet right along the terminator. Very subtle mottling was apparent..I first saw this, not really believing what I was seeing until my friend saw the same features WITHOUT me first contaminating his thoughts by telling HIM what I saw. I have NEVER seen Venus like that ever since..

btw...I had a very good six inch scope for years. A good 8" DESTROYS a six inch viewing EVERYTHING. Planetary performance is far more revealing at least. The math I believe indicates something like 125% more light comparing a 6-8"...

Edited by Paul R. (12/13/13 12:23 PM)


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6250867 - 12/13/13 12:40 PM

Paul, I'd love to see some of your work. I'm almost ashamed to post mine.

Color in Andromeda is a fine thing to see. I have not done it. Yea, if you find that Mars sketch, let's compare. I got a good one, but definitely nothing like a 20". I bet that was amazing.

Detail in the atmosphere in Venus? I usually give Venus a pass, but some people can see that detail. It's not easy as one can imagine. Too much work for little to see, IME.

Nirv, yea, I kind of enjoyed this thread. It was inspirational. Oh, and I had a chance to pull some crow from the freezer tonight. It turns out, quite ironically, LRS-1 was well placed (13 Dec/1600UT) with Jupiter near the Zenith in Ant II seeing. By George, I think I just barely glimpsed the darned thing. Scientific knowledge of knowing where to look helped a lot.

Accidentally and unknowingly picked up WSZ, too, as a indention in the NEB with something faint protruding above it. Didn't realize that was it until I confirmed LRS-1 location and noticed it just south. Anyway, since LRS-1 was as difficult as expected, I put the crow back in the freezer.

Finish the sketch (observation type, not art) in the morning. It was a descent night, so good night from Asia.


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Paul R.
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6250890 - 12/13/13 01:01 PM

Quote:

Paul, I'd love to see some of your work. I'm almost ashamed to post mine.

Color in Andromeda is a fine thing to see. I have not done it. Yea, if you find that Mars sketch, let's compare. I got a good one, but definitely nothing like a 20". I bet that was amazing.

Detail in the atmosphere in Venus? I usually give Venus a pass, but some people can see that detail. It's not easy as one can imagine. Too much work for little to see, IME.

**I have done some sketching in the 1990s, but it was NOTHING like this. I'm sure your skills far exceed mine! I am not the artist/illustrator in that fashion, my friend does all of that. I just merely assist in describing verbally or in text what I've observed. Yes, color, or as the Brits would say: 'colour' in M-31, can be seen with my 20", HIGHLY optimized (that is an essay in itself)instrument using top quality oculars under dark skies. This apparition when it occurs is fleeting, and I only see it for moments until my eye becomes saturated with light. The color I see is a purple/blue/magenta typically placed near the dust lanes. I almost *sense* this color more then actually see it... Again, like with Venus, I doubted my own observations until I saw the SAME exact color in the same approx. region within a club member's CCD image of M-31. That CCD image btw did win 'best in show' at a photo contest back in the glory days of Astrofest.My larger instrument is optically on par with my 8" and optimized in the same fashion. On nights of near perfect conditions the views are jaw dropping! The 8" scope is killer, but the 20" just completely dominates it. After all, the physics never lie man, big fish EAT little fish LOL!!

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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6250909 - 12/13/13 01:16 PM

Quote:



Nirv, yea, I kind of enjoyed this thread. It was inspirational. Oh, and I had a chance to pull some crow from the freezer tonight. It turns out, quite ironically, LRS-1 was well placed (13 Dec/1600UT) with Jupiter near the Zenith in Ant II seeing. By George, I think I just barely glimpsed the darned thing. Scientific knowledge of knowing where to look helped a lot.

Accidentally and unknowingly picked up WSZ, too, as a indention in the NEB with something faint protruding above it. Didn't realize that was it until I confirmed LRS-1 location and noticed it just south. Anyway, since LRS-1 was as difficult as expected, I put the crow back in the freezer.






Nice one Norme. Almost sounds like you had a mental block in place with regards to getting these low contrast features

I've seen features on the earth from a couple of hundred miles distant, but sometimes I just giggle when I think about a curved piece of glass allowing me to see these things on Jupiter several hundred million miles away. I watched a documentary on Newton last night and he was most joyous about making his own telescope, but was genuinely surprised when everyone else was so enthusiastic about it. It was just 6 inches long. These little 3 inch mini dobs on a single arm base that are for sale these days (Celestron FirstScope) remind me of his scope - and they are much like the first Newt scope.


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Paul R.
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6251024 - 12/13/13 02:21 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

Here is a pic of the scope that allowed us to see Jupiter like that... I LOVE this scope...you simply cannot buy one like this...

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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6251075 - 12/13/13 02:52 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

Nice scope. I feel the same way about my 10" with its superb optics:

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Paul R.
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6251264 - 12/13/13 04:33 PM

These smaller scopes really come in handy when you've got a larger one that just requires more time to setup and use.

When I decided on making this 8" scope, I wanted it to be the best dob I could acquire without having to spend over a grand. You just cannot buy anything that comes close without having to spend at least a grand.

I wanted large altitude bearings for maximum stability with the correct contact surfaces, (teflon/formica)and real plywood construction. I also chose this design in which is actually sort of a copy of a Parks dobsonian from the early 1990s.

This design facilitates the usage of a tube cradle in which allows you to spin the tube 360 degrees in seconds, AND to slide it forward or aft to accommodate differing balance issues without having to use counter weights. It works flawlessly EXCEPT for nights when the temps drop below zero contracting the entire structure to a point in where the tube will slide downwards if raised towards zenith.

I also rebuilt with talented friends help, the OTA using old tried and true Newtonian methods, NOT that cost saving *BLEEP* that people are stuck with today when buying a common commercial dob. This includes a real Novak like mirror cell that allows for pinch free solid support, AND excellent ventilation. The spider was replaced with a traditional Novak like holder (protostar) with protostar quartz secondary mirror. All of this is placed in an over sized fiberglass tube that not only allows for excellent ventilation, but proper secondary & primary baffling as well.

With the help of a couple close friends, we built this thing in just a couple weekends including the finished woodwork.

The end result is views like the one featured in this thread and 'Obsession like' movement and stability.


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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6251435 - 12/13/13 06:00 PM

Yes they are very convenient. Glad you enjoy yours - it looks good. At 45 lbs I can carry mine around in one piece. Although it has commercial dob bearings, proper use of materials and design of the base has given me buttery smooth movement all around, even in -30C. I even went so far as to stretch the springs, cut them, and then re-coil them to give the correct tension. I can slice an arc through the heavenly dome without even thinking there is an alt and an az. Throw in a moonlite focuser and it's a real joy to use, especially since I can stay seated regardless of the object I'm viewing.

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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6251742 - 12/13/13 09:18 PM

Nirv, yea maybe some mental block was present, but mostly it was determination. After this thread, I was absolutely determined to observe and render it accurately, ala Adolf.

Paul, just the shiny appearance of you tube tells me it's a fine scope. Of course one cannot tell form the shiny paint, but it makes it easier to believe you. It's at least f/8?

Nirv, same words.

My own small commercial CAT is pretty descent, not 10th wave but pretty good. The big advantage in the tropics is very often excellent seeing, nights much like Paul spoke about. Actually, being a 6" it's a bit of a challenge, much like using my own 6" homemade Newt as a teenager. Reliving childhood, in a way. It's kind of enjoyable struggling to use every trick in the book while observing.


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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6251781 - 12/13/13 09:47 PM

My primary mirror was made in Taiwan and it's fantastic

You're in a yellow zone in Asia, so you can't be in a big city?

A few years ago I backpacked through Asia with a 4 inch achro and had a blast with it. Saw the Omega Centauri for the first time. I had lots of locals who had never even seen a telescope let alone look through one view the moon - they were blown away.


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6252002 - 12/14/13 12:20 AM

Yea, here too. Lot of folks never get to observe through a scope and are often impressed. I know what you mean, even my girlfriend seems amazed. Still.

There is an active community, mostly in Manila, and they do some nice work. Three of us live scattered about the country. One is Chris Go, he lives pretty far south. Another world class, Jack Newton quality imager further north. I'm in the middle, yea kinda small town.

If you were here in dry season, I hope the seeing was good for you. There is one local spot further north that is consistently good. Here it's more variable.

Yea, Omega! Looks like finely broken glass to me. I was in Panama, it was so high you got a kink in your neck looking at it.

Okay, boys, this is the best I got on Jupiter. It's not Adolf quality and it's not even that scientifically accurate.

Edited by Asbytec (12/14/13 12:24 AM)


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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6252167 - 12/14/13 06:36 AM

That's a beautiful sketch Norme. One of the better ones I've seen on CN.

Yes I know of Jack Newton, fellow Canuck. Didn't know he moved to the Philippines.


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6252182 - 12/14/13 06:51 AM

Thank you, no not the original Jack Newton, just a guy who's work is as good as your fellow Canuk.

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nirvanix
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6252491 - 12/14/13 11:35 AM

Quote:

Thank you, no not the original Jack Newton, just a guy who's work is as good as your fellow Canuk.




Hmm, parallel universes?

Heard of Chris Go of course, he's done some good stuff. I would have tried some Jupiter sketches this summer had he been up. Right now I'm observing in -20 to -30C so can't really sketch. You should definitely keep sketching Norme.


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Asbytec
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: nirvanix]
      #6252527 - 12/14/13 11:56 AM

Thank you, Nirv. Jupiter is fascinating.

You mean stiff fingers and intense shivering inhibit your willingness to stand outside in the dark, with your ears and the tip of your nose burning in a crisp breeze, conspire to make it difficult to draw?

In that case, just enjoy.


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Kris.
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Re: Recent Image of Jupiter from Dec. 6th. new [Re: Paul R.]
      #6309901 - 01/13/14 10:06 AM

Quote:

Nice attempts, good detail and information, but extremely amateur in comparison...





Seriously? Unbelievable...


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