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KBP
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Reged: 02/23/08
Posts: 31
Loc: NorthCentral PA
Light pollution issues cause legal threats!
      #2230479 - 03/02/08 02:21 AM

I live in a rural and fairly dark sky area of NorthCentral PA and when its not raining, snowing or cloudy, the sky is amazing. Its so dark that the stars seem to light up the ground! I have had many years of great observation until I got new neighbors. They moved from the city. I introduced myself and all seemed well until they started putting up lights like it was Las Vegas! They were afraid of the dark at night! Flood lights went up all around their house, spot lights on their garage and the worst of all, a big power company high pressure 40 foot pole light. It was fully unshielded and on from dusk to dawn! This is a rural area!No urban street gangs or prowlers! I went down to them and offered to pay for a shield to be put on the light or buy them a shielded light and they said they would think about it. I explained about my hobby and invited them up to see the stars! Three days later I received my answer in the form of a letter from their lawyer! It said I was going to be sued for harrasing them and trespassing on their property if I ever came on their property again! Nice neighbors! Needless to say, I was supprised at the reaction of my new neighbors. Astronomy was difficult for about a year and a half until my less than friendly "urban" neighbors moved because it was "to dark outside at night" Finally, I said a prayer of thanks when they left. This is what you face when you want dark skies!

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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 1914
Loc: Arctic
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: KBP]
      #2230497 - 03/02/08 02:45 AM

Sorry to hear that. That's really awful. I have noticed that some of the most light polluted cities in America have the highest crime rate, like Las Vegas and Miami. Crime is a very complex issue for one. I recalled reading that some school had problems with vandalism and they decided to remove all the lighting on the building. The vandalism stopped. I do not see how more lighting would deter crime. Most reported crimes are committed in the daytime.

--------------------
Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly


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Carpathia
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Reged: 02/22/08
Posts: 24
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Ptarmigan]
      #2230505 - 03/02/08 02:56 AM

See post below.

Edited by Carpathia (03/02/08 12:45 PM)


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Carpathia
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Reged: 02/22/08
Posts: 24
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Carpathia]
      #2231151 - 03/02/08 12:45 PM

Since I have access to it, I decided to do a quick Lexis legal search. I looked up statues in Pennsylvania for Harassment, Trespass, and Nuisance. I believe that this post will be useful for anyone who finds themselves in the same situation as you, as the applications are somewhat broad reaching, even outside of Pennsylvania. If you (or any other readers) want to skip past the legal discussion of the original post, skip to the last paragraph.

Your state defines harassment as (18 Pa.C.S. § 2709 (2007))
  • (1) strikes, shoves, kicks or otherwise subjects the other person to physical contact, or attempts or threatens to do the same;
  • (2) follows the other person in or about a public place or places;
  • (3) engages in a course of conduct or repeatedly commits acts which serve no legitimate purpose;
  • (4) communicates to or about such other person any lewd, lascivious, threatening or obscene words, language, drawings or caricatures;
  • (5) communicates repeatedly in an anonymous manner;
  • (6) communicates repeatedly at extremely inconvenient hours; or
  • (7) communicates repeatedly in a manner other than specified in paragraphs (4), (5) and (6).

Now, presuming that you read the above, you probably did not violate sections 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. I’m going to guess you didn’t ring their doorbell while they were eating dinner repeatedly or after, say, midnight, you didn’t violate 6. But what about 7? Well, it depends on how you define “communicates.” What matters is that Pennsylvania defines “communicates” as follows:

“Communicates – Conveys a message without intent of legitimate communication or address by oral, nonverbal, written or electronic means, including telephone, electronic mail, Internet, facsimile, telex, wireless communication or similar transmission.”

What does all this mean? Well, your neighbors cannot sue you for harassment because you did so in a convenient manner, and had a legitimate communication; their lights annoyed the hell out of you and you wanted them to turn them off. This is evidenced by your possession of astronomical gear (my state requires that a star gazing permit holder hold astronomical gear to prove they have legitimate intent).

Your neighbors believe that they could bring a suit of trespass against you. Whereas harassment is spelled out in 7 points, trespass is broken into 4 sections (18 Pa.C.S. § 3503): Criminal Trespass, Defiant Trespass, Simple Trespass, and Agricultural Trespass.

Criminal trespass requires that a person “break into” a “secured” building. You didn’t do that. Since I highly doubt they put fences and anti-trespassing signs up, you were not a “Defiant” trespasser. Agricultural trespass is right out; you weren’t wandering around farmland. Now lets get to the gist: what is “Simple Trespass.”

Simple Trespass requires that you “enter(s) or remain(s) in any place (where you are not licensed to do so) for the purpose of a) threatening or terrorizing the owner or occupant of the premises; b) starting or causing to be started any fire upon the premises; or c) defacing or damaging the premises.”

What does all this mean? Well, their lawyer has no case; you didn’t violate any of these statues, and you certainly didn’t threaten them, where as they were trying to intimidate you! Your position is further bolstered by your attempts to offer, at your expense, a solution to the issues.

Pennsylvania requires that, for light to be a nuisance, it must “The private nuisance light cases, considered as a whole, seem to warrant the generalization that if the intensity of light shining from adjoining land is strong enough to seriously disturb a person of ordinary sensibilities or interfere with an occupation which is no more than ordinarily susceptible to light, it is a nuisance; if not, there is no cause of action. The courts will not afford protection to hypersensitive individuals or industries (Fontanella v. Leonetti). A nuisance is further defined as “A nuisance is an unreasonable use of property which causes injury or damage to another in the legitimate enjoyment of his rights of person or property": 28 P. L. Encyc. 140, § 1.” You have a reasonable use of your property: stargazing. By lighting their house up (needlessly, it seems), your neighbors are interfering with that reasonable use. For lighting, however, Pennsylvania requires “that if the intensity of light shining from adjoining land is strong enough to seriously disturb a person of ordinary sensibilities or interfere with an occupation which is no more than ordinarily susceptible to light, it is a nuisance; if not, there is no cause of action.” This concerned a business, and the people complaining of excess lights were found to have no case. However, the court then required that the defendants (a golf course with a load of lights) install shielding on six different poles.

I think this is important because there is no crime in asking your neighbor in a polite and courteous manner, to turn their exterior lights off if they bother you. At the same time, we as astronomers are more sensitive to exterior lights, however, we should be free from overly intensive light coming from our neighbors. Basically, as long as you act in good faith in dealing with your neighbors, they will most likely be unable to bring any suits against you.


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nabziF
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Reged: 03/03/06
Posts: 18
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Carpathia]
      #2231305 - 03/02/08 01:55 PM

That's ridiculous; I can't imagine why anyone would be so bitter toward the world that they would go to all the trouble of calling up their lawyer, having them draw up a cease & desist or whatever, all over absolutely nothing...if they want to be reclusive hermits and light up their property like a penitentiary, fine whatever...but if they didn't care to see you again, they should have just said as much when you spoke to them. Although I don't see why they'd be so uptight; it's not like you demanded that they modify their lighting at their own expense (even though they should have). Sheesh some people

--------------------


Edited by nabziF (03/02/08 02:05 PM)


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Tom L

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Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29880
Loc: Sunny Oregon
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: nabziF]
      #2231357 - 03/02/08 02:21 PM

I don't think we can try to understand their motivation so lets not go there, please.

Also, as a moderator for Cloudy Nights, let me remind you that Carpathia's previous post is his own opinion and I suggest that you research this on your own or hire a lawyer to draw your own conclusions. Not that Carpathia's information is wrong, it's just that we are not a legal forum and there really isn't a complete view of the situation here. Let's try to be careful on the legal advice.

Thanks, TomL, the layman mod of the west.

--------------------
Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount


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nabziF
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Reged: 03/03/06
Posts: 18
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Tom L]
      #2231426 - 03/02/08 02:48 PM

Quote:

I don't think we can try to understand their motivation so lets not go there, please.




Yeah it doesn't sound like they made their motivation known...which is a shame. Not understanding others' motivation is a major cause of conflict in the world, large and small. We can but try.

--------------------


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Tom L

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Posts: 29880
Loc: Sunny Oregon
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: nabziF]
      #2231462 - 03/02/08 03:03 PM

Darned hidden agendas!

--------------------
Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount


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Carpathia
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Reged: 02/22/08
Posts: 24
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Tom L]
      #2231638 - 03/02/08 04:45 PM

Tom L: More than understood; the entire point of my post is that people shouldn't be afraid that their neighbors will run around bringing lawsuits against them for asking them to turn their lights off (or offering to shield them). I forgot the whole "talk with a lawyer before bringing a suit" thing.

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Spaz
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/19/07
Posts: 758
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: nabziF]
      #2231992 - 03/02/08 08:10 PM

Quote:

That's ridiculous; I can't imagine why anyone would be so bitter toward the world that they would go to all the trouble of calling up their lawyer, having them draw up a cease & desist or whatever, all over absolutely nothing...if they want to be reclusive hermits and light up their property like a penitentiary, fine whatever...but if they didn't care to see you again, they should have just said as much when you spoke to them. Although I don't see why they'd be so uptight; it's not like you demanded that they modify their lighting at their own expense (even though they should have). Sheesh some people




To people outside of the USA, it seems as if one half of America is suing the other half of America at any given point in time.

Why work when you can sue?


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Tom L

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Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29880
Loc: Sunny Oregon
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Spaz]
      #2232357 - 03/02/08 11:25 PM

Spaz, living in the US, it(suing each other) is not the norm. I was as surprised as everyone else on these people's reaction. Seemed really strange. Most Americans are very friendly and open to each other. These people must of had something to hide.

Carpathia, thanks for the understanding.

--------------------
Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount


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Scott Horstman
Vendor- Backyard Observatories
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Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Tom L]
      #2233520 - 03/03/08 02:44 PM

Quote:

living in the US, it(suing each other) is not the norm.




Respectfully Tom, The two major products of the US are quickly becoming law suites and hamburgers.

--------------------
Scott.
12.5" f/8 Cave, 8" f/8 Edmund, 6" f/10 Jaegers, Meade 102ED.
My Gallery
www.backyardobservatories.com
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galaxyman
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Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: KBP]
      #2233787 - 03/03/08 04:43 PM

Quote:

I live in a rural and fairly dark sky area of NorthCentral PA and when its not raining, snowing or cloudy, the sky is amazing. Its so dark that the stars seem to light up the ground! I have had many years of great observation until I got new neighbors. They moved from the city. I introduced myself and all seemed well until they started putting up lights like it was Las Vegas! They were afraid of the dark at night! Flood lights went up all around their house, spot lights on their garage and the worst of all, a big power company high pressure 40 foot pole light. It was fully unshielded and on from dusk to dawn! This is a rural area!No urban street gangs or prowlers! I went down to them and offered to pay for a shield to be put on the light or buy them a shielded light and they said they would think about it. I explained about my hobby and invited them up to see the stars! Three days later I received my answer in the form of a letter from their lawyer! It said I was going to be sued for harrasing them and trespassing on their property if I ever came on their property again! Nice neighbors! Needless to say, I was supprised at the reaction of my new neighbors. Astronomy was difficult for about a year and a half until my less than friendly "urban" neighbors moved because it was "to dark outside at night" Finally, I said a prayer of thanks when they left. This is what you face when you want dark skies!




Have you checked with the codes of your local township?

Sometimes there are some outdoor lighting codes, though they may not say much. If there are, please post them here or send me a PM.

Can you also take some pics of these lights at night from you property, and post them here?

I would like to have your situation discussed at a upcoming POLC (Pa. Outdoor Lighting Council). I will tell you that your not alone with this type of situation. The POLC has been made aware of other situations similar to yours over the years.


Karl
E.O.H.

Chesmont Astronomical Society
Telekit (Swayze optics) 22" F/4.5 Dob
Homemade (Parks Optics) 12.5" F/4.8 Dob
TMB 8" F/9 Refractor(The Beast)
Antares 6" F/6.5 Refractor(Mini-Beast)

--------------------
So many galaxies, so little time!


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Mike I. Jones
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Reged: 07/02/06
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Loc: Fort Worth TX
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: KBP]
      #2234066 - 03/03/08 06:50 PM

Sounds like their lawyer was either a family member and tough-guy bully, or the same lawyer that won them a previous lawsuit that awarded them the money to afford to move to the country in the first place.

Why doesn't unwanted light on your property constitute harassment? Given PA law, could that have been the basis of a countersuit? If they were playing their stereo system loudly at 3AM, that would be acoustic trespass and you could have had them stop it. Why is unwanted light any different? If it is different, then the law needs to be expanded.

Mike

--------------------
56 mirrors, lenses, 16" f/6 Newt, 6" f/10 refractor, TOA-130S, Tinsley 5" f/15 Mak, 6" f/4 RFT, Coronado PST. Still to build: 24" f/10 Modified Dall-Kirkham, 10" f/26 Mak, 8" f/12 apo, spectrohelioscope, Herrig, Schupmann, and a new design you'll like.


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Tom L

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Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29880
Loc: Sunny Oregon
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #2234151 - 03/03/08 07:24 PM

Most townships have an ordinance for loud music after a certain time in the evening. I know mine does.

--------------------
Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount


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Carpathia
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Reged: 02/22/08
Posts: 24
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Tom L]
      #2234409 - 03/03/08 09:41 PM

Mike: I think you'd have to prove #3 (the no legitimate purpose); however, most "reasonable" people consider lighting to be a good thing.

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Tombstone Sky
One-Eyed Jack
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Reged: 12/18/06
Posts: 1588
Loc: Tombstone Arizona
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Carpathia]
      #2234415 - 03/03/08 09:45 PM

Quote:

Mike: I think you'd have to prove #3 (the no legitimate purpose); however, most "reasonable" people consider lighting to be a good thing.



...but not everyone. "Light trespass" translated says "You have a right to illuminate your property, but you do not have the right to illuminate mine."

--------------------
MJ "Morg" Staley
--------------------
M5 Dark-Site Observatory
Meade 12" f/10 LX90GPS "River"
Meade 8" f/10 LX90GPS "Fat Chance" (like to sell)
WO 2" Dielectric Diagonal
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glowplug
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Posts: 207
Loc: lexington ky
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Scott Horstman]
      #2234489 - 03/03/08 10:18 PM


Respectfully Tom, The two major products of the US are quickly becoming law suites and hamburgers.



both will give ya a heart attack!

--------------------
8"orion intelliscope dob
26mm Q70,2"gso barlow, 32mm, 12.5mm,10mm plossl,2x barlow
Around Lex, KY? Lets star party! PM me!


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ckhd
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Reged: 11/28/07
Posts: 24
Loc: St. Johns, Arizona
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Carpathia]
      #2236247 - 03/04/08 06:59 PM

Quote:



This is evidenced by your possession of astronomical gear (my state requires that a star gazing permit holder hold astronomical gear to prove they have legitimate intent).






What? You have to have a star gazing permit? Anyone know which states require this? Is Arizona or New Mexico one of them?

Talk about stupid statutes... have to have a permit to look at the stars.


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FirstSight
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/26/05
Posts: 2668
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: ckhd]
      #2237519 - 03/05/08 11:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

This is evidenced by your possession of astronomical gear (my state requires that a star gazing permit holder hold astronomical gear to prove they have legitimate intent).





What? You have to have a star gazing permit? Anyone know which states require this?




The only situation I can think of where a "stargazing permit" might be an issue would be where public parks that are normally closed to visitors after sunset will allow visitors for bona fide astronomical use to be on premises after-dark, provided they know your identity and bona fides in advance. The way this works at one of our club's two observing sites (on state park land) is that blanket permission is given on a group basis to anyone in our astronomical club, with the proviso that at least one among a limited set of known key members must be on-premises with any other users. At our other site (either a county or state park, not sure which), you're expected to sign in at a log when coming onto the premises, stating your affiliation with the astro club. In either case, I would imagine if you showed up at normally closed/vacant park premises at night *without* any sort of astro gear, park personnel might be justifiably suspicious about your purposes at an otherwise closed park.

--------------------
Chris M., aka "First Sight"
Orion XT12i Dob with Moonlite CR-2 focuser
WO Megrez 90 refractor on UniStar Light mount
Nikon 10x50 Binoculars


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Carpathia
member


Reged: 02/22/08
Posts: 24
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: FirstSight]
      #2237529 - 03/05/08 11:50 AM

My state's Department of Parks gives out a star gazing permit. It requires a trip to the regional headquarters, which, in my case, was an hour and fifteen one way. It allows the use of certain public parking lots for a handful of state parks, provided you remain within fifty feet of the car you had registered. This only applies to New York. It doesn't apply to all state parks, nor does it apply to any county or national parks.

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FirstSight
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/26/05
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Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: FirstSight]
      #2237619 - 03/05/08 12:40 PM

One of the unfortunate facts of life is that most of us eventually come across some people who are simply jerks who are hard to get along with - too quick to read provocation into the actions of others, too slow to see inconsideration in themselves, too aggressive about asserting their will in situations, too insecure about being run over and imposed upon if they show flexibility or accomodation. AND - if they are affluent enough to afford a few thousand dollars in legal fees each year - WATCH OUT! Finding a stable of one or two dozen people like this is a significant part of what helps keep lots of small-time general-practice lawyers afloat. Fortunately, the interest in grinding an axe more often than not burns out short of actually filing litigation (the prospective price tag is a deterrent even to jerks), with the threat in practice amounting to little more than their having a lawyer they've worked with whom they're willing to pay a consultation fee to discuss (and do a little legal research) on the situation about you.

--------------------
Chris M., aka "First Sight"
Orion XT12i Dob with Moonlite CR-2 focuser
WO Megrez 90 refractor on UniStar Light mount
Nikon 10x50 Binoculars


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2682
super member


Reged: 02/18/08
Posts: 198
Loc: The Heartland
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: FirstSight]
      #2238024 - 03/05/08 04:00 PM

Quote:

One of the unfortunate facts of life is that most of us eventually come across some people who are simply jerks who are hard to get along with - too quick to read provocation into the actions of others, too slow to see inconsideration in themselves, too aggressive about asserting their will in situations,...




Good point, up to here I wasn't really sure who you were talking about. Has it occurred to anybody that the OP, rightly or wrongly, but understandingly, may have been seen as being this way by the other party? We really do not know their story and motivations.
I may post here further on specifics after hearing from a moderator I have contacted. Generally, I will state right now that I am appalled at some of the thinking and assertions made on this thread.
And, yes, I do need to drive 30 miles to greatly improve my observing situation.

--------------------
Benders 900/9 1180/9.29
Folder LB8 1219/6
"(Sigh!) I sold it for a song. But, that song was 'White Christmas.' I made millions!" - Montgomery Burns



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KBP
member
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Reged: 02/23/08
Posts: 31
Loc: NorthCentral PA
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! *DELETED* new [Re: FirstSight]
      #2238853 - 03/05/08 10:23 PM

Post deleted by KBP

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KBP
member
*****

Reged: 02/23/08
Posts: 31
Loc: NorthCentral PA
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: FirstSight]
      #2238864 - 03/05/08 10:31 PM

Thanks to everyone for their ideas and support! I found out later, that the lawyer was a family friend! I really am intrigued at the insane idea of a StarGazing permit! Really it should be retitled to a "Heavenly Body Gazing permit!" HA HA! But getting back to more serious issues, The situation has reversed itself with the crazy neighbors moving. It was just too dark at night for them even with all the lights. I even saved the threatening letter the lawyer sent me! What a "nightmare" that was. The new neighbors are great! They are from Nevada and are not afraid of the dark. The first thing they did is remove the blinding power company high pressure light! This unshielded power company light was the worst offender. It should be illegal for a power company to put these things up. Chuck(my new neighbor) said he and his wife hated that bright annoying light! Crazy as it seems, before the light was up, I could walk my dog at night and see good by the light of the moon and other nights even by starlight! When the high pressure light went up, it blinded me and the only way I could see to walk my dog was by taking a bright flashlight with me! I told my new neighbors about my bad experience and invited them up to see my telescope and the stars. Hopefully they will accept my invitation and enjoy our once again dark skies! Ken

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Mike I. Jones
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1158
Loc: Fort Worth TX
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: KBP]
      #2238881 - 03/05/08 10:42 PM

Congratulations, Ken, on a wonderful and fortunate outcome for an otherwise horrific problem. Sounds like they would have been rotten neighbors, lights or not, and the source of other problems and battles as well. I like your new Nevada neighbors already and I haven't even met them! I believe I'd toss in a good home-cooked dinner for them as well.

In about 1973 or so our neighbor the next farm over put up a mercury light just a hundred feet or less from our property and my observing site. I did the same thing as you, walking over and explaining that the new light was causing problems with my astronomical hobby, and offered to pay for having a switch installed. Not only did he agree, but he paid for the switch! He asked only that if he was loading and spreading hay at night, he would need it on for that. I said I'll do you one better, I'll go over and turn it on when I'm not observing, and even help with the hay! I basically tried to meet his generosity and understanding with mine, and it worked wonderfully for the rest of the three years we lived next to them.

Mike

--------------------
56 mirrors, lenses, 16" f/6 Newt, 6" f/10 refractor, TOA-130S, Tinsley 5" f/15 Mak, 6" f/4 RFT, Coronado PST. Still to build: 24" f/10 Modified Dall-Kirkham, 10" f/26 Mak, 8" f/12 apo, spectrohelioscope, Herrig, Schupmann, and a new design you'll like.


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csa/montanaModerator
Den Mother
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Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #2238927 - 03/05/08 10:59 PM

It's great to read about these two happy endings! Congratulations to both Ken & Mike!

Carol

--------------------
Carol


AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
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Tak LE 5mm B/TMB 3.2
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2682
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Reged: 02/18/08
Posts: 198
Loc: The Heartland
Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: KBP]
      #2239448 - 03/06/08 08:16 AM

Quote:

They were afraid of the dark at night! I explained about my hobby and invited them up to see the stars! Three days later I received my answer in the form of a letter from their lawyer! It said I was going to be sued for harrasing them and trespassing on their property if I ever came on their property again!




I'm a little perturbed by your attitude, feeling that one's astronomy should take precedence over another's fear of the dark. Explaining your hobby and nicely inviting them to see the stars does not make it incumbent on them to comply with your request. Their response seems to be quite correct, they put you on notice since they did not desire for you to return to their property. When you spoke to them, they may have misperceived you as being intemperate and reacted accordingly. Why should anybody tolerate one more visit from anybody on their private property they do not wish to be there?
The Group Think on this thread has shown a real lack of imagination and empathy for the other party, imo.

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"(Sigh!) I sold it for a song. But, that song was 'White Christmas.' I made millions!" - Montgomery Burns



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Mike I. Jones
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Reged: 07/02/06
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Re: Light pollution issues cause legal threats! new [Re: 2682]
      #2239487 - 03/06/08 08:47 AM