Greyhoundman
sage
Reged: 11/20/07
Posts: 289
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This is what was built across the street from me at the end of 2007. They now have all the lights working. Two very big and bright signs, 9 double and quad street lights. And around thirty halogen ground lights to light the building.
This mess is in my south sky.
I've tried to talk to them...zero results. Tried going to the township trustees....less than zero results.
I now have to pack up and drive to a distant spot to get reasonable skies. These mega churches are popping up every where. I live out in the country on a dead end road!
Excuse the mismatched pics, I was in a hurry. 
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/greyhoundman/
http://greyhoundman.blogspot.com/
Edited by Greyhoundman (04/23/08 08:38 AM)
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bsim
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 688
Loc: New York City
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You should tell them being green and using shielded lights is next to godliness.
On a more serious note, in the near future there will be few dark places. I really can't see Astronomy growing when kids look up in the sky and see nothing but sky glow.
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Teeter's 10" F/6 Truss Dob / Sky Commander DSC / Round Table Platform
Celestron C80ED / MoonLite CF Tri-Knob
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Astro-Tech Voyager, Bogen 3011 & 3036, UA MicroStar Deluxe
Howie Glatter Laser & tuBlug
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jrw11
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 509
Loc: U.S.A.
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If they would use the proper lighting, their electric bill wouldn't be as high as it will with what they have now.
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Skyscout
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Greyhoundman
sage
Reged: 11/20/07
Posts: 289
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Money doesn't seem to be a problem for them. They managed to get the zoning people to OK both signs. The signs are double the normally allowed size and brightness.
In my talk with them, I pointed out the savings, and the astronomy viewpoints. The answer was definitely non-cooperative.
They are very rude and suffer from swollen heads.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/greyhoundman/
http://greyhoundman.blogspot.com/
Edited by csa/montana (04/23/08 02:06 PM)
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bsim
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 688
Loc: New York City
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Quote:
They are very rude and suffer from swollen heads.
So much for the Golden Rule. These clowns are obviously running the "mega-mart church" like a big business. I hope your dark site is close by. I live in New York City and have to travel an hour to my favorite "dark" site. So I feel your pain.
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Teeter's 10" F/6 Truss Dob / Sky Commander DSC / Round Table Platform
Celestron C80ED / MoonLite CF Tri-Knob
William Optics ZS66, Orion XT8i, Orion XT4.5
Canon 10x30 IS, Constellation View 2.3x40 Bino
Astro-Tech Voyager, Bogen 3011 & 3036, UA MicroStar Deluxe
Howie Glatter Laser & tuBlug
13 & 8 Ethos, 35 & 24 Panoptic, Nagler 3-6 Zoom, TV 8-24 Zoom
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FirstSight
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/26/05
Posts: 2668
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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One of the factors you are working against with respect to some churches is that central to their mentality is the need to promote themselves as visibly as possible, completely apart from any safety angle. It's viewed as a form of marketing mission necessary to both further God's work and help assure survival and growth of the congregation. I say this by way of explaination rather than criticism of religion.
On the upside, an increasing proportion of churches, even those whose theology and congregations have up to now been considered otherwise very conservatively inclined, are developing growing sensibilities toward environmental stewardship as being connected with their core religious missions as a church. I don't want to go too far down this road of discussion here at CN, except to point out that even if the particular church at issue in this thread may not be at this point be favorably attuned to this approach(especially just having made their investment of resources in building and lights) - that nonetheless this may prove to be a more fertile common ground for constructive approach in other, future instances, especially if you can constructively engage them before the congregation has irreversibly committed unrecoverable financial investment toward poor lighting.
Note that NONE of the observations or advice in this thread required any criticism or analysis of religious issues, beyond the useful observation that there are trends afoot which may open better grounds in the future for constructive engagement with churches on this issue than might have been the case in the past. But it helps also to understand why some of them think unshielded bright lighting is useful beyond just safety issues or stubborn thoughtlessness.
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Chris M., aka "First Sight"
Orion XT12i Dob with Moonlite CR-2 focuser
WO Megrez 90 refractor on UniStar Light mount
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Tombstone Sky
One-Eyed Jack
Reged: 12/18/06
Posts: 1588
Loc: Tombstone Arizona
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Put a sign on your lawn by the street
ENVIRONMENTALLY INSENSITIVE JERKS
TURN HERE
with an arrow pointing to the 'church'.
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MJ "Morg" Staley
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M5 Dark-Site Observatory
Meade 12" f/10 LX90GPS "River"
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WO 2" Dielectric Diagonal
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Filters I never use
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jrw11
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 509
Loc: U.S.A.
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Years ago, I had the same problem with a hospital.Their field was behind us to the south. And, my neighbor to the east had a street light over their pool.It was so bad, I sold my homemade 6", and took up building musical instruments. It took me years to get back into it.
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Celestron C6n -HD Reflector
dual axis drive motors added
Orion 80mm Short tube refractor
Skyscout
Early 70's Pentax 7x50
Garrett Optical 12x60
Garrett Optical 15x70
Oberwerk 20x80 Standards
Canon Rebel Ti (film)
4 Minolta Srt cameras
Mamiya RB67 Pro-s with 180 lens
127mm KL lens for RB, Bellows hood for RB67
Mamiya M645 Pro
Cambo SCII 4x5 view camera
over 50 other film cameras
several eyepieces
too much stuff
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Greyhoundman
sage
Reged: 11/20/07
Posts: 289
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When we moved out here 5 years ago. You could run into a tree in the front yard it was so dark. Now I can read a newspaper by that same tree at midnight.
I'll never understand why they have to pick the rural spots. I live at the end of a deadend road, that is only one lane. It's fun on Sunday when 500 cars are fighting to get in and out of here.
I've thought of the sign idea. Your wording is better. 
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/greyhoundman/
http://greyhoundman.blogspot.com/
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bsim
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 688
Loc: New York City
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Post deleted by bsim
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Teeter's 10" F/6 Truss Dob / Sky Commander DSC / Round Table Platform
Celestron C80ED / MoonLite CF Tri-Knob
William Optics ZS66, Orion XT8i, Orion XT4.5
Canon 10x30 IS, Constellation View 2.3x40 Bino
Astro-Tech Voyager, Bogen 3011 & 3036, UA MicroStar Deluxe
Howie Glatter Laser & tuBlug
13 & 8 Ethos, 35 & 24 Panoptic, Nagler 3-6 Zoom, TV 8-24 Zoom
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dasein668
member
Reged: 02/28/08
Posts: 36
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Do the lights enter into your home through windows? You could certainly file a light trespass complaint if that is the case. It is sad that these people were both unresponsive and impolite.
You might also try a letter to the editor of your local paper. That might help raise awareness about astronomy and the impact of light pollution on these activities. You may even find that the paper has interest in doing more than just printing a letter, but might even do a story about the situation.
Good luck!
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Nathan
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Greyhoundman
sage
Reged: 11/20/07
Posts: 289
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Letter has been sent by the wife.
Light trespass is not a valid legal complaint here. Especially since the zoning guys okayed them to start with.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/greyhoundman/
http://greyhoundman.blogspot.com/
Edited by csa/montana (04/23/08 04:56 PM)
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dasein668
member
Reged: 02/28/08
Posts: 36
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Another thought: maybe you could pass out leaflets to (or otherwise educate) the congregation in some way? Leave them under the windshield wipers or something? I don't know how these mega churhes tend to operate, but maybe if you get some of the congregation on your side, they may be able to influence the church management.
Just brainstorming here... 
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Nathan
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Greyhoundman
sage
Reged: 11/20/07
Posts: 289
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Now you are being very logical and reasonable.
But I would have to go on the property to do that.
And it has been made clear that I am not welcome there.
I intend on moving up the government ladder to see if I can get some relief.
Otherwise I need to start earning extra for the soon to be $4.00 a gallon gas needed to drive to a dark spot.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/greyhoundman/
http://greyhoundman.blogspot.com/
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 30194
Loc: montana
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In order to keep this thread from being locked, please be more respectful (required by CN's Terms of Service).
Clowns, Jerks, and worse are not respectful.
Carol (Moderator Team)
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
AstroTech 66ED / Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Tak LE 5mm B/TMB 3.2
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jrw11
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 509
Loc: U.S.A.
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Maybe the letter to the local newspaper could not be from an astronomy viewpoint. But, how proper lighting saves energy costs, fuel sources, etc. That would hit more people's interest.
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Celestron C6n -HD Reflector
dual axis drive motors added
Orion 80mm Short tube refractor
Skyscout
Early 70's Pentax 7x50
Garrett Optical 12x60
Garrett Optical 15x70
Oberwerk 20x80 Standards
Canon Rebel Ti (film)
4 Minolta Srt cameras
Mamiya RB67 Pro-s with 180 lens
127mm KL lens for RB, Bellows hood for RB67
Mamiya M645 Pro
Cambo SCII 4x5 view camera
over 50 other film cameras
several eyepieces
too much stuff
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Achernar
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3837
Loc: Alabama, USA
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There's tons of mega-churches in my area, and one reason why some are lit up like a maximum security federal prison is the incredibly high crime rates in my city. At the youth center I'm working at now, thieves walked right in, despite lights and security cameras and stole a lot of tools. And they surrounded the place with dozens of those atrocious high pressure sodium lights, the ones that wipe out much of the visible spectrum at one time. Thieves are even ripping out the copper wiring from churches now. There's a lot of people who feel that lighting up their property at all hours with day bright searchlights is the only way to keep thieves from taking everything that's not welded or bolted down.
Taras
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10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
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dasein668
member
Reged: 02/28/08
Posts: 36
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Quote:
But I would have to go on the property to do that.
And it has been made clear that I am not welcome there.
Just because you asked them about turning down the lights?! Sounds like a great church... "We don't want your kind 'round here!" ::sigh::
I guess you could try to get folks attention from just outside their property. It is your own road, after all... But that may not be an effective use of your time and energy. I'm vicariously frustrated for you!
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Nathan
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jrw11
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 509
Loc: U.S.A.
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What is a bummer is that if people want to have outdoor lighting. They can use the international dark sky approved lighting. Where everyone would benefit. But, most people could care less about the stars. and,most don't even know that there are lighting that would not only save the sky,but, cut down on their energy bills. I have never seen or heard a non astronomer hobbyist even mention light polution.
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Celestron C6n -HD Reflector
dual axis drive motors added
Orion 80mm Short tube refractor
Skyscout
Early 70's Pentax 7x50
Garrett Optical 12x60
Garrett Optical 15x70
Oberwerk 20x80 Standards
Canon Rebel Ti (film)
4 Minolta Srt cameras
Mamiya RB67 Pro-s with 180 lens
127mm KL lens for RB, Bellows hood for RB67
Mamiya M645 Pro
Cambo SCII 4x5 view camera
over 50 other film cameras
several eyepieces
too much stuff
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 30194
Loc: montana
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Strange thing, a person can see pretty well in darkness. When I had my yardlight removed; I found I could see outside after I went to bed better than I had thought. Probably better than someone up to no good; because they wouldn't be familiar with the surroundings. I have a sensor light; & that's all I need or want.
Carol
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
AstroTech 66ED / Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Tak LE 5mm B/TMB 3.2
7mm Pentax XL, 10mm Pentax XW
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
22mm Pan, 35mm Pan
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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