panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2072
Loc: 43.88 n 79.17 w
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I just found out from an electrical contractor that there has been a dark sky by law passed that all new lighting has to be directed down and shaded so as not to project light upwards.      
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10"Sky watcher dob
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
Edited by panhard (06/18/08 10:42 PM)
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o1d_dude
o1der than dirt
Reged: 10/03/07
Posts: 1185
Loc: The Big Tomato, California
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You mean the new lights have to look like the one in front of my house? The one that lights up my backyard and both sideyards?
A ban against lighting in the skyward direction isn't enough. There also has to be a restriction against lighting in the horizontal direction as well. The very newest cobra heads have both upward and horizontal restrictions on their lighting pattern. Hopefully those are what you're referring to when you say the light has to be directed downwards.
Now if only I can have mine replaced as well...
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Kit
"There's only two things that excite a man, expensive toys and real expensive toys." - Red Green
* A bunch of old ATM stuff that cost me next to nothing
* A bunch of new commercial stuff that cost me an arm and a leg
Edited by o1d_dude (06/19/08 12:45 AM)
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panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2072
Loc: 43.88 n 79.17 w
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I saw one of these lights yesterday when I was out. I am going to check it out further to night and see what pattern the light is. All of our lights are on an angle pointing towards the middle of the street. The new light that I saw was not like yours at all.
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10"Sky watcher dob
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
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o1d_dude
o1der than dirt
Reged: 10/03/07
Posts: 1185
Loc: The Big Tomato, California
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The one in front of my house is approximately 30 years old and was installed back when my subdivision was built. I know this because I'm the original occupant.
At the time, I'm sure this was considered a step in the right direction with respect to light pollution as it radiates no light upward. The problem is that the lighting is not focused or directed downward at all; it's radiated outward in all directions and I've still not been able to get anyone to own up to supporting these fixtures. In spite of this, the bulbs get replaced when they burn out. Now I'm going after the County as I spotted one of their trucks working on one. No luck yet.
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Kit
"There's only two things that excite a man, expensive toys and real expensive toys." - Red Green
* A bunch of old ATM stuff that cost me next to nothing
* A bunch of new commercial stuff that cost me an arm and a leg
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Remy Bosio
Zeit-Meister
Reged: 03/02/04
Posts: 7802
Loc: Kenner, LA.
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I live in a fairly old subdivision. Most of the homes here were built in 1970's. We have overhead wiring and the cheapest light fixtures you gan get. They don't shine up but man, do they have a large horizontal area! The only good thing is the bulb is LPS. Years ago I asked the city to replace the poles with underground wiring and cobra fixtures and they said I was completly crazy!
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REMY
Meade ETX 125PE
Sears Discoverer 60mm.
15X70(Obie),7X35,7X50,10X25
Canon XT (350D)
Oly C750uz
******************
"Life Member" Pontchartrain Ast. Soc. Inc.
http://pasnola.org/
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, and a dark side, and it holds the universe together." -Carl Zwanzig
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panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2072
Loc: 43.88 n 79.17 w
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Quote:
I live in a fairly old subdivision. Most of the homes here were built in 1970's. We have overhead wiring and the cheapest light fixtures you gan get. They don't shine up but man, do they have a large horizontal area! The only good thing is the bulb is LPS. Years ago I asked the city to replace the poles with underground wiring and cobra fixtures and they said I was completly crazy!
I remember those fixtures when I was kid in the city.
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10"Sky watcher dob
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
Edited by csa/montana (06/20/08 06:09 PM)
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Joe Lalumia
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 2368
Loc: Rockwall, Texas, USA
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If you will read my editorial on "lighting" here;
http://www.neighborsgo.com/index.php?page_id=1000&site_page_id=301&post_id=10310&sblog_id=412
I have pictures at the top of the page of both types of cobra lights--
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LX90 8" LNT, SV Nighthawk & TelePOD, SV 80/9D & M4 mount, ETX 90, Orion XT10i, 20x80 binoculars, SV-BV3s.
"I'm so old they've canceled my blood type." Bob Hope
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David L
super member
Reged: 11/12/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Lee County Iowa
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From my observation of the light shining upwards on nearby trees, that style of light sends about a third of its light upwards.
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panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2072
Loc: 43.88 n 79.17 w
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Quote:
If you will read my editorial on "lighting" here;
http://www.neighborsgo.com/index.php?page_id=1000&site_page_id=301&post_id=10310&sblog_id=412
I have pictures at the top of the page of both types of cobra lights--
The newer style that they are installing here look like the second style that you mentioned. Thanks for pointing that out to me. 
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10"Sky watcher dob
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
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mazzefr
I'll take door number three...
Reged: 02/12/07
Posts: 1465
Loc: Behind the Wheel in PA
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Quote:
Years ago I asked the city to replace the poles with underground wiring and cobra fixtures and they said I was completly crazy!
Underground in New Orleans? I might agree with the city on this one, Remy.
You are
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Franco
Orion XT12i
Celestron Omni XLT150
Hyperions(5,8,17,24)mm, Scopos 35mm
Lumicon UHC, Baader M&S
DIY- Denver Chair, Light shields, solar filter
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Remy Bosio
Zeit-Meister
Reged: 03/02/04
Posts: 7802
Loc: Kenner, LA.
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Franco, the subdivision where I lived prior had all underground wiring, latest aluminum fixtures and was built in the late 70's. It was a higher end area and that's the neighborhoods who get the good lighting "daun heah en da deap sauth". Money begets lifestyle and municipal environs. It's not right but it's the way local government does business.
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REMY
Meade ETX 125PE
Sears Discoverer 60mm.
15X70(Obie),7X35,7X50,10X25
Canon XT (350D)
Oly C750uz
******************
"Life Member" Pontchartrain Ast. Soc. Inc.
http://pasnola.org/
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, and a dark side, and it holds the universe together." -Carl Zwanzig
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mazzefr
I'll take door number three...
Reged: 02/12/07
Posts: 1465
Loc: Behind the Wheel in PA
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just trying to have some fun with ya Remy. Sorry.
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Franco
Orion XT12i
Celestron Omni XLT150
Hyperions(5,8,17,24)mm, Scopos 35mm
Lumicon UHC, Baader M&S
DIY- Denver Chair, Light shields, solar filter
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Dave440
sage
Reged: 11/19/05
Posts: 419
Loc: So. FL
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We still have the old style here like in Remys photo.
I'm curious Joe...on the new style cobras. While the bulb itself may not be visible xcept if you're under it...what is the angle of ground coverage? I'm a corner house and the light right outside my house illuminates a blind corner so it does need to project to the sides as well for safety so you can see the entire curve. There's also been a gradual increase in break-ins, drugs and gang activity in s.florida in ALL neighborhoods including mine. I would welcome lights that are energy efficient and do not project upwards but still allow for a wide angle of coverage on the ground. Even though those old style surround lenses diffuse to the sides...they do project down the street a few houses. Do the new cobras achieve this?
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1965healey
Enginurse
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 2548
Loc: San Antonio, TX
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Dave, I asked the city to install one of the "new" cobra style lights as pictures in Joe's editorial link and no they don't project down the street "a couple of houses". They illuminate a typical residential intersection very well and maybe 15 feet beyond it. Walking towards it after dark you cannot see the light lens at all until you are AT the intersection. There is NO upward lighting and essentially no light thrown on houses or yards nearby. It is NOT meant to be a security light, it's meant to light an intersection. Since it's been in for about seven months now no one has tagged my neighbors garage door. They used to tag her every couple of weeks.. Seems that since the stage is no longer well lit all the funs gone out of it. No increase in prowlers, crime or accidents either. A definite decrease in kids hanging out at the corner, riding skateboards and jumping their bikes off the curbs as well.
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1965Healey (Karen)
Woodlawn Lake Observatory
Celestron CPC 800/FT MIcro/APT Wedge
SV NHNG 80mm #0261/CG5-GT
Losmandy rails/rings
Starizona CWeight system
Celestron Neximage
Sony a100 DSLR/ZigView S2
Meade DS60's w/Autostar (2)
Meade LPI/Meade DSI-C/DSI ProII
750cc Honda Shadow Spirit (Thanks Dad!)
1965 Austin Healey 3000 MKIII
A little too much money and NO SELF CONTROL!
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o1d_dude
o1der than dirt
Reged: 10/03/07
Posts: 1185
Loc: The Big Tomato, California
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So it turns out the troublemakers like security lighting, too. Provides them with good lighting for loitering, littering, tagging, and such.
Who knew?
--------------------
Kit
"There's only two things that excite a man, expensive toys and real expensive toys." - Red Green
* A bunch of old ATM stuff that cost me next to nothing
* A bunch of new commercial stuff that cost me an arm and a leg
|
panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2072
Loc: 43.88 n 79.17 w
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Quote:
Dave, I asked the city to install one of the "new" cobra style lights as pictures in Joe's editorial link and no they don't project down the street "a couple of houses". They illuminate a typical residential intersection very well and maybe 15 feet beyond it. Walking towards it after dark you cannot see the light lens at all until you are AT the intersection. There is NO upward lighting and essentially no light thrown on houses or yards nearby. It is NOT meant to be a security light, it's meant to light an intersection. Since it's been in for about seven months now no one has tagged my neighbors garage door. They used to tag her every couple of weeks.. Seems that since the stage is no longer well lit all the funs gone out of it. No increase in prowlers, crime or accidents either. A definite decrease in kids hanging out at the corner, riding skateboards and jumping their bikes off the curbs as well.
What do you mean by tag?
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10"Sky watcher dob
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
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o1d_dude
o1der than dirt
Reged: 10/03/07
Posts: 1185
Loc: The Big Tomato, California
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Tag = Graffiti
The term comes from spray painting/magic marking one's nom du plume or "tag" on a convenient surface to mark or claim a territory. Kind of an in your face thing. Lowest of the low in the world of graffiti artistes.
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Kit
"There's only two things that excite a man, expensive toys and real expensive toys." - Red Green
* A bunch of old ATM stuff that cost me next to nothing
* A bunch of new commercial stuff that cost me an arm and a leg
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jrw11
sage
Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 490
Loc: U.S.A.
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I guess what 1965healey said about the no more tagging just shows that too much lighting does help the bad guys!
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Celestron C6n -HD Reflector
dual axis drive motors added
Orion 80mm Short tube refractor
Skyscout
Early 70's Pentax 7x50
Garrett Optical 12x60
Garrett Optical 15x70
Oberwerk 20x80 Standards
Canon Rebel Ti (film)
4 Minolta Srt cameras
Mamiya RB67 Pro-s with 180 lens
127mm KL lens for RB, Bellows hood for RB67
120 and 220 film backs
over 50 other film cameras
several eyepieces
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Darenwh
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/11/06
Posts: 593
Loc: Saint Francis, WI
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Just remember, even drug dealers and prostitutes need light to ply their trades. If they did not have light enough to see to do their transactions and so that people they are wanting to cater too can see them then they would be less likely to be in that area doing that business. Light does not reduce crime of this type. It provides the illumination they need to advertise.
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Daren
St. Francis, WI
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David L
super member
Reged: 11/12/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Lee County Iowa
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Now for the next step: to convince people that when it comes to lighting the night, less is more. But most people still firmly believe that turning the night into day equals safety and low crime.
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8.5 X 44 Swift Audubon binoculars
100 mm semi-apo triplet PVC spotting scope
6 inch F8 dobsonian
10 inch F4.5 dobsonian
2 2-cylinder equatorial platforms, 2-roller direct drive
22X100 Oberwerk binoculars (just received)
6" F6.5 Antares refractor
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o1d_dude
o1der than dirt
Reged: 10/03/07
Posts: 1185
Loc: The Big Tomato, California
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I have taken to referring to the various lighting some folks use as "INsecurity" lighting. This usually sparks a discussion that sometimes leads to a new point of view in the minds of those who have such lighting, particularly with respect to using sensor-triggered lighting instead of leaving the lights on all night.
With energy costs being what they are, 24/7 lighting is a very bad deal and this is an argument even the staunchest proponents of INsecurity lighting understand.
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Kit
"There's only two things that excite a man, expensive toys and real expensive toys." - Red Green
* A bunch of old ATM stuff that cost me next to nothing
* A bunch of new commercial stuff that cost me an arm and a leg
|
1965healey
Enginurse
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 2548
Loc: San Antonio, TX
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Quote:
Now for the next step: to convince people that when it comes to lighting the night, less is more. But most people still firmly believe that turning the night into day equals safety and low crime.
That's what motion detector lights are for. If it's DARK and a bright light suddenly come on crooks run and the good guys look out the window. If it's NEVER dark then why pay attention. 
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1965Healey (Karen)
Woodlawn Lake Observatory
Celestron CPC 800/FT MIcro/APT Wedge
SV NHNG 80mm #0261/CG5-GT
Losmandy rails/rings
Starizona CWeight system
Celestron Neximage
Sony a100 DSLR/ZigView S2
Meade DS60's w/Autostar (2)
Meade LPI/Meade DSI-C/DSI ProII
750cc Honda Shadow Spirit (Thanks Dad!)
1965 Austin Healey 3000 MKIII
A little too much money and NO SELF CONTROL!
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PXR-5
super member
Reged: 03/28/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Monroe, NC
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Quote:
Now for the next step: to convince people that when it comes to lighting the night, less is more. But most people still firmly believe that turning the night into day equals safety and low crime.
Is that possible? Put yourself in thier shoes, They dont care about dark sky, just protecting thier family.
Go to the hardware store and look at the flood/spot light packaging it screams that you care for your family, many even have a picture of a cute blond baby sleeping on the box. Mr customer, dont you care enough about your family to spend $12.95? Who cares about the geeky Jone's teenager looking thru a scope, he should not be outside at night. (he is probably smoking somthing anyway) 
Sorry for the rant 
I guess downward facing lamps are better but all of the lighting by me is that type and my night sky looks like Mar's daytime... orange 
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Jeff
------------------------
I hope you brought your credit card with you, and I hope you know how to
Drive on these long, lonely freeways and intersections we've got up
Here. We've got two cars in the garage, and
Drum-majorettes in white ankle socks and baton twirling on Sundays.
We've got stripes and the stars and Uncle Sam's on Mars....
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Joe Lalumia
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 2368
Loc: Rockwall, Texas, USA
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Dave-- I cannot answer your question on the exact angle of the new style "cut-off" cobra fixtures-- however it cannot be MORE than a 90 degree spread-- as the fixture itself cuts off the light and the bulb and glass do not protrude below the fixture bottom..... maybe an engineer can give us the exact cutoff angle-- although this may depend on the brand of fixture.
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LX90 8" LNT, SV Nighthawk & TelePOD, SV 80/9D & M4 mount, ETX 90, Orion XT10i, 20x80 binoculars, SV-BV3s.
"I'm so old they've canceled my blood type." Bob Hope
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1965healey
Enginurse
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 2548
Loc: San Antonio, TX
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I'll go out tonight and try and get a some pix of the light pattern. If that doesn't work I'll "walk it out" and try and sketch it.
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1965Healey (Karen)
Woodlawn Lake Observatory
Celestron CPC 800/FT MIcro/APT Wedge
SV NHNG 80mm #0261/CG5-GT
Losmandy rails/rings
Starizona CWeight system
Celestron Neximage
Sony a100 DSLR/ZigView S2
Meade DS60's w/Autostar (2)
Meade LPI/Meade DSI-C/DSI ProII
750cc Honda Shadow Spirit (Thanks Dad!)
1965 Austin Healey 3000 MKIII
A little too much money and NO SELF CONTROL!
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jrw11
sage
Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 490
Loc: U.S.A.
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Karen, what you said about the motion detectors, I agree 1,000%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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Celestron C6n -HD Reflector
dual axis drive motors added
Orion 80mm Short tube refractor
Skyscout
Early 70's Pentax 7x50
Garrett Optical 12x60
Garrett Optical 15x70
Oberwerk 20x80 Standards
Canon Rebel Ti (film)
4 Minolta Srt cameras
Mamiya RB67 Pro-s with 180 lens
127mm KL lens for RB, Bellows hood for RB67
120 and 220 film backs
over 50 other film cameras
several eyepieces
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panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2072
Loc: 43.88 n 79.17 w
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Quote:
Dave-- I cannot answer your question on the exact angle of the new style "cut-off" cobra fixtures-- however it cannot be MORE than a 90 degree spread-- as the fixture itself cuts off the light and the bulb and glass do not protrude below the fixture bottom..... maybe an engineer can give us the exact cutoff angle-- although this may depend on the brand of fixture.
The new ones that they are using here the lens is recessed by 2 or 3" also it is flat. It is much better than the ones that are flush with the fixture and has a bulb like lens that spreads the light.
--------------------
10"Sky watcher dob
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
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1965healey
Enginurse
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 2548
Loc: San Antonio, TX
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Went out to try and take a pix of the street lights "angle of illumination" but failed miserably. The street light sits about 30' above the ground on an outrigger from the pole that positions it so that if you drew a diagonal line to the opposing corner it would follow that line and protrude about 8' out from the pole. It doesn't point straight down but is angled towards that opposite diagonal corner about 20 degrees from horizontal. The street intersection is a standard residential width about 30' wide. They were nice enough to point it AWAY from my house so that the street, sidewalk and yards are only illuminated for about 30' in most directions, about 20' towards my house.
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1965Healey (Karen)
Woodlawn Lake Observatory
Celestron CPC 800/FT MIcro/APT Wedge
SV NHNG 80mm #0261/CG5-GT
Losmandy rails/rings
Starizona CWeight system
Celestron Neximage
Sony a100 DSLR/ZigView S2
Meade DS60's w/Autostar (2)
Meade LPI/Meade DSI-C/DSI ProII
750cc Honda Shadow Spirit (Thanks Dad!)
1965 Austin Healey 3000 MKIII
A little too much money and NO SELF CONTROL!
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panhard
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 2072
Loc: 43.88 n 79.17 w
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AWSOME!
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10"Sky watcher dob
8 & 17mm Hyperion eye pieces
12x50 binos
A love for this hobby
"What goes around comes around."
"She who must be obeyed."
Herb c
cloudy nights my # 1 site
43.53°n 79.17°w
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 751
Loc: Cattaraugus Co., NY
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