RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
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I was having a discussion on light pollution with a friend of mine the other day, and he stated that the Bortle Scale has recently been superceeded by the "Louvar Scale" (and map). I have tried looking this up in a number of search engines to no avail. Where can I find information on this new scale and map? Has anyone even heard of it? Perhaps a website could clear this up, and maybe even lead us to a better way to descibe the skies. Thanks! 
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
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Nobody?
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40253
Loc: montana
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Sorry, I for one, have not heard of this scale 
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
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DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Nightknight
member
Reged: 10/12/07
Posts: 95
Loc: The great pacific northwet of ...
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I can't find anything on it either. Frankly, I have no problem with the Bortle scale and I like the way it's tied to observational characteristics. If this Louvar scale is based more on measurement (ambient nanoLamberts or something) it may be more clinically accurate, but I wouldn't find it as useful to an observer. Having something like that to use when legislating light pollution regulations would be a good thing and probably necessary, but I'd keep the observable object-based scale at the same time.
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You can only talk astronomy with astronomers. Everybody else just yawns.
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40253
Loc: montana
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Very good points made! The Bortle Scale has been around a long while, & is very easy to use & understand for viewing purposes. I don't see it disappearing anytime soon.
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Frankly, I have no problem with the Bortle scale and I like the way it's tied to observational characteristics.
I (am most other experienced observers) have plenty of problems with the Bortle Scale, but nobody's ever offered a scale based entirely on visual observation that seems clearly superior. It's all very well to criticize, but the criticisms are a little hollow without concrete suggestions for improvement!
But since the Bortle Scale is inherently subjective, most people on Cloudy Nights have taken to using the colored zones from the Light Pollution Atlas instead. These can be determined easily through the Clear Sky Chart, the Dark Sky Finder, or various other Google overlays.
Each of these -- plus direct instrumental measurements -- has its advantages and disadvantages. Unfortunately, trying to cross-correlate them seems almost hopeless, despite the (rather poor) attempt published in Wikipedia and popularized by the Clear Sky Charts.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40253
Loc: montana
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Tony, have you heard of the "Louvar Scale"?
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 16329
Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
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An extensive web search turned up nothing for me either.
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Ted
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
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Well... I have been able to find nothing, either. Perhaps we'll hear about it in the future if it "picks up steam." Thanks for your time, everyone
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Tony, have you heard of the "Louvar Scale"?
Not a clue. I would have said if I had.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2356
Loc: Arctic
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Where did you hear about Louvar Scale?
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Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT
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magic612
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 559
Loc: Somewhere south of Chicago, IL
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Maybe it was supposed to be "Louver Scale" - as in, how many louvers does it take on your blinds to block out the unwanted light pollution.... 
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- Celestron C8+, Orion 90mm f/10, Orion ST-80, 5" f/8 Dob, 127mm f/9.4 refractor, 114mm f/8 on DS GoTo, 60mm Sears 6333-A, 127mm f4.4 refractor lens (current project), 12" f/5 mirror (future project)
- Orion Vista 10x50s (5 deg), Sears #6207 7x35 (7 deg), Jason #138 Statesman 7x35 (11.5 deg)
Yes, I'm addicted to telescopes and binoculars. I am getting help. Every time I look at the heavens, it helps.
http://www.eyesonthesky.com
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hm insulators
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 1371
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
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Yeah, perhaps it is the "Louver Scale." I heard it from a friend at the university. Apparently he heard of it from one of the professors. I'll try to find out more; this is starting to bug me!  Hopefully someone can help us out with this one.
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
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Hi, again, everyone... It looks like I might be able to meet with this professor who first brought up this Louvar Scale. I'll try to stop by and see him later this evening. I'll keep you all posted on what I find out. Like I said, this one's really getting to me. The idea of a whole new scale sounds exciting; the suspense is killing me! And to clarify some (possible?) misconceptions, I don't personally have a rift with the Bortle Scale. I'm just really curious about the Louvar Scale, and its possible implications on describing skies. Most Sincerely,
Kipp
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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GUNER
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 1615
Loc: Bedminster,NJ USA
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Is the professor's name Lou Ver per chance  I think he's publishing a book & wants to force it on someone other then his students so he started a rumor to create a buzz.
Remember if it's not on Google it doesn't exist 
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Thomas
17mm ETHOS NEAF Door Prize
THANK-YOU TELEVUE!!!!
12" SuperCharged LX-200 GPS
TAK SKY 90 on a Vixen Skypod
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Infinity 2-1 CCD Camera with Lucam Recorder
Custom Scientific 1.25" LRGB filters
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Thomas44
super member
Reged: 10/26/09
Posts: 101
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Got nothing both on "Louvar Scale" and "Louver Scale" here on my end..but there is a Dr. Joseph Louvar.
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www.laserpointers.co.uk
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
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Nope... His name is not even related to "Louvar" or "lou ver" or "Louver." I have tried contacting him with no luck thus far. I'll keep everyone posted though. I'm about to start pulling my hair out!
  
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40253
Loc: montana
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Since absolutely no information is to be found on this new scale; let alone replacing the Bortle, it seems not very likely. 
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Thomas44
super member
Reged: 10/26/09
Posts: 101
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I see. I was hoping that it has something to do with him. Keep us posted then.
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www.laserpointers.co.uk
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SkyscraperJim
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/29/07
Posts: 537
Loc: Providence, RI
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Personally, I find the description of the different stages of the Bortle scale to be highly inaccurate (not the limiting magnitude, but what you can expect to see).
For example, our observatory is in a zone red, but close to the boundary with a zone orange. However, the description of zone green (a full 3 steps down the scale) is more accurate with what I can see from the site--particularly the fact that I can see the Milky Way bulge into Ophiuchus from the site. We definitely don't have mag 6.2 mag skies though, low 5's on a good night, so the limiting magnitude is accurate.
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Jim
TMB/APM 130/780 (#185) on G11
TMB/APM/Lomo 80/600
Tele Vue Pronto (#3533) on Half Hitch
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
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Hey, Jim. Yes, I agree that the Bortle scale has some inaccuracies, as I have observed myself. If you think about it, it's got to be incredibly difficult to make a fully accurate scale. Since the skies regularly affect viewing, it makes it even more difficult (i.e. what should we define as the "average" sky?)... So, this is why my interest is sparked. From what I originally heard, the Louvar Scale will actually set a "reference sky" based on the average seeing/transparancy/etc. of small regions (less than 100 square km). It would also take into effect small towns, and also differentiate between individual regions in larger towns. It sounds rather accurate, and thus exciting (especially for finding a nearby space to observe for us apartment dwellers). That's why I'm so incredibly anxious to hear more information about this scale. I'll keep you all posted.
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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mbares
member
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 33
Loc: Pilsen, Europe
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Bortle scale has nothing to do with color zones. You look at the sky and based on what you see you estimates what is appropriate Bortle class for that sky.
World LP atlas and color zones:
1) is outdated (IIRC it is based on data from years 1992-1993)
2) shows relative amount of artifical light pollution, NOT actual quality of the sky (there are other maps for that purpose)
3) its color coding was never intended to correspond with Bortle scale
Therefore it makes no sense to say that Bortle scale is highly inacurrate, because it doesn't correspond with colors of the LP atlas.
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Mike
10" truss dob just finished!, 8x42 & 7x50 binos, 70mm f/7 achro, 6" f/5 GSO eq newt
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1238
Loc: Estonia
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The bortle scale is flawed in that it doesn't predict anything. Some conditions it claims are a sign for great skies can be easily matched in rather bad ones. Some descriptions for perfect skies don't match perfect sky experiences.
It's also entirely dependent on eyesight, the season, and as such, the position of various key objects in the sky.
In short, it's a scale that doesn't relay really anything I'd consider that useful.
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Coromandel
super member
Reged: 02/27/09
Posts: 148
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The Bortle scale is quite useful imo. Even if the descriptions aren't 100% accurate or suited to every single site on every single night.
For instance if somebody asks you what your observing site is like you can tell them it's "class 3" or whatever and they immediately have a reasonable idea of what to expect.
Sure the site may not EXACTLY fit the Bortle class 3 description but it will probably be near enough to distinguish it from a class 2 or class 4 and allow others to get an idea of what to expect.
It's not like there are any other better scales that I know of!
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
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I had a meeting with the professor today regarding the Louvar Scale. Unfortunately, he had an emergency of sorts and had to leave before we got down to business. On a brighter note, the man is a professional astrophysicist with an intense interest amateur observing. We put together an observing trip for the Leonids & Orionids next week as part of an upstart for a university astronomy club. Thus, I can be sure to have the final word on the Louvar Scale for all of you by the end of next week! Alas, victory!
Regards,
Kipp
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
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Okay, the Louvar Scale does, indeed, exist! Yay! Ok, so, this is not published yet, but it is part of some side-research being done at my university (Temple University) that may provide a more "concrete" ideal than the Bortle Scale. The professor noticed my interest, so I'll begin research on the Louvar Scale with him in January! (BTW, nobody is named "Louvar"). As mentioned earlier, this would be rather useful when objectiveness is necessary (LP regulation & such). So....... I will update you when more is known. I'll be meeting with the professor once again next week to discuss this. As soon as I find out more, I'll let everyone know. So exciting!!!
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40253
Loc: montana
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It will indeed be interesting; but since it hasn't been published yet; it hardly superceeds the Bortle Scale & map. 
Congratulations for you being chosen to work on this!
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
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Quote:
It will indeed be interesting; but since it hasn't been published yet; it hardly superceeds the Bortle Scale & map.
Congratulations for you being chosen to work on this!
Thank you Carol!!! I'm really excited about working with him--he's involved with a NASA project for an orbiting observatory (future) that will be able to measure polarization of X-Ray light. As an undergrad, this is an exciting opportunity! BTW we started the "Temple Astronomical Society" and had our first meeting on Friday. Cloudy in the beginning, but for those who stayed after 10pm, we had clear skies and an amateur out with a 20" Cassegrain! What an AMAZING view!
To get back on topic: I know it may not be much now, but who knows, right? I'm studying this field because I want everyone to understand how amazing our Universe is. Whether you're religious, agnostic, or atheist, I truly belive that if everyone could understand more of the "heavens," we, as a species, would truly benefit from it--and advancing the LP scale is just one facet of that. I'm so incredibly excited! Thank you for keeping up with this thread!
Most Sincere Regards,
Kipp G.
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40253
Loc: montana
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We will certainly look forward to your updates, it's exciting to have a member that's involved in a study such as this! 
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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