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General Astronomy >> Light Pollution

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mountain monk
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/06/09

Loc: Grand Teton National Park
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: northernontario]
      #5707614 - 03/01/13 06:31 PM

The March, 2013, issue of National Geographic Magazine contains an article--"American Strikes New Oil"--that serves as a good introduction to fracking and its many ramifications.

Dark skies.

Jack


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BoldAxis1967
sage
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Reged: 10/11/12

Loc: Kentucky
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: northernontario]
      #5707988 - 03/01/13 11:42 PM

Just saw this thread. Very late, but had to write something.

The larger point here is: What can we do about it? Who will listen and who will even care. These problems require solutions that are on a massive scale. Large sums of money are required to fund political interests groups that can influence politicans at all levels of government. The problem is so massive that the ball is half way down the hill and picking up steam. Consider this: For all the efforts put into the environmental movement success has been minimal if one looks at the whole. Forest, bird populations, amphibian populations etc. are crashing. I hate to sound so negative but without someone or group with the energy (physical and mental)to start a movement the only thing we can do is complain. What is needed is an Al Nagler type to start a movement. But, we should be under no illusion, 99% of people do not know there is a problem and if they did I doubt that more than 3 or 4% would care.


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George N
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: BoldAxis1967]
      #5708918 - 03/02/13 02:25 PM

Quote:

....... I hate to sound so negative but .....we should be under no illusion, 99% of people do not know there is a problem and if they did I doubt that more than 3 or 4% would care.




Well, we need to remember: there have been some successful anti-LP efforts related to frack’ing in PA. For example, the gas companies have agreed to not do “burn-off flaring” in the general area of Cherry Springs Dark Sky Park during dark-of-the-moon weekends. Also, the state has made some considerable effort to buy up drilling rights in the immediate vicinity of the park, (and owns much of the land around it). They plan on not allowing frack’ing near the park. My understanding of “near” is as being within about 10 miles or so.

I remain cautiously optimistic that anti-LP efforts related to frack’ing can be successful in PA. At least at this point the gas companies want to be as accommodating as possible, and the local governments in Potter County are well aware of the economic importance of the many visitors that Cherry Springs brings in. The park manager noted recently, that before the Dark Sky Park designation, the park’s camping area was often empty, and now it is full every weekend – even full moon weekends.


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BoldAxis1967
sage
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Reged: 10/11/12

Loc: Kentucky
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: George N]
      #5708946 - 03/02/13 02:48 PM

That is good news! Maybe there is at least a ray of sunshine in all of this. Winning small battles does account for something and is very meaningful. It sounds like you were directly involved and I commend your efforts.

We, the country, need policies and to set long-term goals. Unfortunately, the past 30 has seen an unwillingness to do so. To a certain extent our failure to set long-term energy and environment goals has led to the need for Fracking and hence the light pollution problem is part of the mix.


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hokkaido53
sage


Reged: 05/07/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: BoldAxis1967]
      #5712055 - 03/04/13 08:19 AM

Quote:

Just saw this thread. Very late, but had to write something.

The larger point here is: What can we do about it? Who will listen and who will even care. These problems require solutions that are on a massive scale. Large sums of money are required to fund political interests groups that can influence politicans at all levels of government. The problem is so massive that the ball is half way down the hill and picking up steam. Consider this: For all the efforts put into the environmental movement success has been minimal if one looks at the whole. Forest, bird populations, amphibian populations etc. are crashing. I hate to sound so negative but without someone or group with the energy (physical and mental)to start a movement the only thing we can do is complain. What is needed is an Al Nagler type to start a movement. But, we should be under no illusion, 99% of people do not know there is a problem and if they did I doubt that more than 3 or 4% would care.




From what I've read lately, much of America's "new oil strike" isn't going to be used by Americans. It will be sold and shipped overseas. In other words, it won't affect the price of gas or decrease our dependence on foreign oil.

Here are some articles on the subject:

http://ecowatch.org/2012/fracking-industry-export-natural-gas/

http://www.dontfractureillinois.net/oil-and-gas-industry-aims-to-build-19-new...


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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: hokkaido53]
      #5712384 - 03/04/13 12:05 PM

It is a common misconception that producing a commodity locally means local lower prices. Commodity pricing is global, and only government price controls/export restrictions (all contrary to free market capitalism/socialism) will result in prices that are below market.

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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: dpwoos]
      #5712398 - 03/04/13 12:13 PM

Folks, let's remain on the subject of LP, caused by fracking; not the political aspects of it.

Thanks!


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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5712559 - 03/04/13 01:41 PM

I think you are confusing economics with politics.

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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: dpwoos]
      #5712581 - 03/04/13 01:50 PM

Truthfully, you can't really split the two, they're related.....

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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5712639 - 03/04/13 02:27 PM

I guess everything is related to everything somehow, and so what can be discussed and what can't? Is pointing out that the commodity market is global a political statement? I don't see how - it is simply an uncontroversial economic fact. Discussing whether or not it SHOULD be a global market can certainly be debated in a political context, but that never came up here.

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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5712788 - 03/04/13 03:55 PM

When the discussion changes to "government price controls & exportation", this is carrying the discussion away from LP.

Now back to the LP caused by fracking.


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kfiscus
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: Albert Lea, MN, USA
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5712802 - 03/04/13 04:02 PM

In southeast Minnesota and Southwest Wisconsin, frac sand MINING threatens to become an LP (and dust) problem. The companies want to go 24/7 if they can.

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: kfiscus]
      #5712847 - 03/04/13 04:25 PM

Never would have thought of the dust problem, but defintely can see where that would just add to the overall LP.

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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA [Re: csa/montana]
      #5712934 - 03/04/13 05:05 PM

Mitigating light pollution from fracking can be approached on (at least) two different fronts - 1) better lighting, and 2) less fracking. The second requires understanding something about the pricing structure of natural gas and petroleum, hence my post.

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DarkSkys
professor emeritus
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Reged: 10/11/10

Loc: In the dark desert of Eastern ...
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA [Re: dpwoos]
      #5713300 - 03/04/13 08:26 PM

Were doooooomed.

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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA [Re: DarkSkys]
      #5720237 - 03/08/13 10:39 AM

Here in Colorado, you can heat your house, run your car, and your lawnmower...all from the convenience of your Kitchen faucet!!

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George N
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: DarkSkys]
      #5723096 - 03/09/13 10:29 PM

Quote:

Were doooooomed.




Maybe…..

Personally, if it gets as bad as all that, I’m moving full-time to Indian Lake NY. There is no gas under the Adirondacks and it’s nearly all a ‘gray zone’. Of course it’s also 20 below and cloudy at night most of the winter.


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Motokid600
super member


Reged: 06/27/10

Loc: Berlin, New Jersey
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA [Re: mountain monk]
      #5724422 - 03/10/13 06:13 PM

I got a place in Tunkhannock, PA. Used to be a small, quiet town. In the last few years its since become a boom town because of the gas. And its a mess. My skies went from green ito yellow quite easily.
Aaaand then came the gas line.. 50 feet next to my property. It.. was quite amazing actually. In just months they cleared thousands of acres of trees all the way up and over the mountain. But in the process I lost my second home. The property has gone to hell. I give it a few more months before the retaining wall of my lake blows out. They removed all the trees so there's nothing to hold the ground together. Just needs a good rain storm.
I'm sorry if that's off topic a bit but I wanted to share that. I'm really bumbed about it. Place was my childhood and now its destroyed. And there's nothing I can do. All for more fossil fuels... MORE.. FREAKING fossil fuel.

Edited by Motokid600 (03/10/13 06:17 PM)


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George N
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: Motokid600]
      #5726762 - 03/11/13 08:15 PM

Quote:

I got a place in Tunkhannock, PA. ....... My skies went from green ito yellow quite easily.
.....in the process I lost my second home. .....Place was my childhood and now its destroyed. And there's nothing I can do. All for more fossil fuels...




I'm sorry to hear this. It's really sad. I've been to your town and it *was* a wonderful place.

Alas, I fear that you are describing the future of rural New York as well.


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Joe Bergeron
Vendor - Space Art


Reged: 11/10/03

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Fracking & Light Pollution in PA new [Re: George N]
      #5727118 - 03/11/13 11:24 PM

I don't think I'll be able to stand it if they start fracking here. I'll have to get out. Witnessing the destruction day by day would be too depressing. For many years I was grateful there was nothing here that the extractive industries wanted. How naive. They will stop at nothing.

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