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General Astronomy >> Light Pollution

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Nop
Vendor (iPushto)


Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Netherlands, Valkenburg
Dark Sky Meter Live map now online
      #5898973 - 06/03/13 03:06 AM

Dear all,
Our Dark Sky Meter map is online. The map contains all valid night sky measurements made with the Dark Sky Meter for iPhone. It's fully automated.
Feel free to explore
http://www.darkskymeter.com/map/
Regards
Norbert

PS Note that this is a 'semi-live' map. All the data is refreshed every hour.


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cuivienor
professor emeritus


Reged: 10/07/10

Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #5899016 - 06/03/13 04:18 AM

Hi Nop,

This is excellent! Thank you, I'm already waiting for some new neat data in Tokyo - now if the app can also measure the frequency of light pollution, maybe we could find cities where phase of the streetlights is the same, and this skyglow peaks could be filtered out by blocking out light at the peaks

OK the above was a bit "out there", some on a more feasible angle, I think this app could also turn into a great way to find nice observation places - my understanding is that locations are rounded to 800 meters. Wouldn't it be a good idea to allow users to disclose the exact location (from a public park for example) should they chose to do so? This would turn into a great dictionary of observation sites.

This would be particularly useful for city dwellers like me, in Tokyo, to know where we could travel by train to which park to get the best skies possible! Under that mode, if submitters could also rate their location (streetlights, public lights, etc.) it would make it even more powerful.

Yannick


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dcbrown73
member


Reged: 06/23/12

Loc: Lower Connecticut
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: cuivienor]
      #5899216 - 06/03/13 09:09 AM

Pretty cool. Though, I'm an Android guy. I don't have any iOS devices.

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REC
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #5899239 - 06/03/13 09:25 AM

Oh, that's cool. Just saw my post of 18.42 here in Gastonia, NC.

Bob


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pfile
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/14/09

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: REC]
      #5899881 - 06/03/13 02:40 PM

i wish you would fuzz the locations on the map a little bit... bit of a privacy concern.

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Nop
Vendor (iPushto)


Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Netherlands, Valkenburg
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: pfile]
      #5901072 - 06/04/13 02:33 AM

Thanks!
A quick note on location:

- The locations are rounded (about 110 meters for privacy reasons.
- Uploading is not obligatory. The app doesn't do any 'sneaky uploading':) . So you are in control.
- If you don't want your location on the map. Simply erase it from the 'My Data' menu (swipe and delete)


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Qwickdraw
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #5901161 - 06/04/13 05:43 AM

It would be nice if the moon phase could somehow be calculated out of the number so that all locations show actual LP factors regardless of moon phase.

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Nop
Vendor (iPushto)


Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Netherlands, Valkenburg
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5901206 - 06/04/13 07:16 AM

Yes, we are discussing that. But, it is and will be an estimated result. There's a lot of side effects measuring with moon (dirty sensor, bad transparency etc).

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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #5901398 - 06/04/13 10:03 AM

If I uncheck the markers for data that appears less useable, there's not much left. Wrong/no time, low angle, clouds...you're getting many more less useful readings than useful ones. Any way to imrpove those percentages?

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Nop
Vendor (iPushto)


Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Netherlands, Valkenburg
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5903228 - 06/05/13 04:58 AM

@derangedhermit
It will need some time. Keep in mind that the app is released only 2 months ago and for the Northern hemisphere the nights are getting shorter. Here in Europe the weather has been terrible. So there's a lack of good readings. I'll expect to have a good number of readings coming this fall and more amateur astronomers will provide useful SQM measurements. And I hope we get a lot of users on the southern hemisphere.
With over 2000 downloads worldwide (lite+pro) the app has a good potential.


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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #5903404 - 06/05/13 08:38 AM

I know it will. I hope the app or server provides feedback to users about no/wrong time, pointing angle - whatever it can to improve the readings.

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audioaficionado
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/24/12

Loc: Medford, Orygun, USA
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5908261 - 06/07/13 04:09 PM

Quote:

Dark Sky Meter for iPhone




There are also a lot of Android phone users who could be recruited to add more data points.


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Dark Sky Scott
super member


Reged: 01/06/12

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: audioaficionado]
      #5908673 - 06/07/13 07:59 PM

Android phones have a lot of variability in their cameras. A different app was developed for them. Check it out here:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cosalux.welovestars


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StarDaddy
member


Reged: 05/10/13

Loc: Eastern Shore, Maryland
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: pfile]
      #5921155 - 06/14/13 07:57 PM

Quote:

i wish you would fuzz the locations on the map a little bit... bit of a privacy concern.




=========

Don't worry my friend, the NSA knows exactly where you are! (and the fact that we are having this correspondence)


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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: StarDaddy]
      #6006323 - 08/04/13 05:31 PM

I have installed the Pro version yesterday. Here is a comparison with a "hardware" SQM.

a) Today at my home.
I took 5 SQM readings, which were: 18.88, 18.89, 18.87, 18.87, 18.87. Mean 18.876 and SD < 0.01
I took 5 Dark Sky Meter readings which were: 18.78, 18.82, 18.73, 18.75, 18.84. Mean 18.784, SD 0.046.
The difference between the two means is less than 0.1mpsas, ie less than the claimed accuracy of standard SQM (mine is a little bit optimistic). HOWEVER the repeatability of the Dark Sky Meter is nearly 5 times worse.

b) Yesterday at dark site.
The SQM was averaging at 21.6, with deviations of the order of 0.1. But the DSM, in such low lights, had very large fluctuations, from 21.4 to 22.2 (nearly one magnitude).

It seems that in low lights (ie what is more interesting for me) the DSM is loosing accuracy.

Hopefully tomorrow I will be on a dark site again and I will record carefully the readings of both.

Edited by Mauro Da Lio (08/04/13 05:32 PM)


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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6006390 - 08/04/13 06:21 PM

Mauro: is the close agreement with the SQM after you "calibrated" the app against the SQM? Is the SQM the narrower FOV version, or the original?

Also, very good information, thank you; and I look forward to your further tests.


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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #6007106 - 08/05/13 06:35 AM

No, I did no particular calibration. My SQM is on average 0.1 mg optimistic and is the standard version. However the sky at my home is pretty uniformly polluted so the difference in the FOV is in influential.

However, despite the agreement at ~SQM 19, there is no longer agreement above SQM 21, and, what is worse, the DSM gives non repeatable readings.


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Tony Flanders
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6007304 - 08/05/13 09:50 AM

Quote:

However, despite the agreement at ~SQM 19, there is no longer agreement above SQM 21, and, what is worse, the DSM gives non repeatable readings.




That's exactly what I would expect. The DSM has to rely on the built-in camera, which is designed for compactness and high pixel count -- precisely the qualities that make a camera work poorly at low light levels. On the whole, it's amazing that it works as well as it does.


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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6008826 - 08/06/13 05:31 AM

This is quite obvious. There is no detail about how the sensor data are processed, but I believe that by lumping all the pixel together one may reduce noise and increase signal. After all the CCD of the iPhone is similar in size to the sensor element of the SQM. So it looks to me that a clever processing might obtain similar results.

Use in Dark sites is important. Moreover another useful feature might be that of collecting readings at intervals the whole night and producing a chart (similar to the SQM-LE).

Edited by Mauro Da Lio (08/06/13 05:32 AM)


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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6010093 - 08/06/13 06:46 PM

Mauro, the phone gets *hot* inside, the SQM does not. The heat you know makes a lot of noise in the image.

Kill all the unneeded apps and services, see if there is a way to turn off the mobile radio hardware (big problem), turn off the display hardware (big problem), etc. Wrap a cold pack around it and let it chill.

It may help in both variance and going deeper.


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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #6010902 - 08/07/13 06:32 AM

That is a good advice! I will shut down everything not needed (I think the the "airplane use" switch shuts down every radio link) and test it for repeatability the next time I go to a dark site.

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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6014293 - 08/08/13 06:20 PM

Quote:

That is a good advice! I will shut down everything not needed (I think the the "airplane use" switch shuts down every radio link) and test it for repeatability the next time I go to a dark site.



Since you will likely be at the site for a while, you might also at one point try turning the phone off for 30 min to let it cool to ambient, then turn on and immediately try it.


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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #6019024 - 08/11/13 01:13 PM

Yesterday I went to this site in the middle of the Alps. http://goo.gl/maps/eqOFW

The sky was clear. A traditional (non-L) read abut 21.64 in the first part of the night aiming the Cygnus (at zenith overhead). The SQM was mine, which is probably 0.1 mags optimistic (so the correct readings might have been ~ 21.55).

Turning the iPhone off did not work much probably because as soon as the iphone is turned on and used to gather data, it undergoes a temperature transient. However the ambient temperature was ~6 C and i worked in a way to keep the iPhone activity constant and at minimum.

I got the following three series:

a) between 00.55 and 00.58: 21.77, 22.03, 21.93, 21.80, 22.07, 21.92, 21.96, 21.77, 21.72, 21.71, 22.00. i.e. 21.88 +/- 0.39 (mean 21.88 standard deviation 0.13).

b) between 02.10 and 02.15: 21.99, 21.50, 21.82, 21.54, 22.26, 21.62, 21.85, 22.06.
i.e. 21.83 +/- 0.80 (mean 21.83 standard deviation 0.27)

c) between 03.24 and 03.26: 21.84, 21.82, 21.54, 21.48, 22.07, 22.07.
ie: 21.80+/- 0.76 (mean 21.80 standard deviation 0.25)

The mean value is consistent with a systematic error of say (+0.25 mags) which may be corrected in the calibration settings. Fluctuations are large (typically +/- 0.8 mags at 3 sigma) but can be averaged.

It might be useful having a systems that takes a series of reading (necessarily with only one dark) and averages.


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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6021199 - 08/12/13 04:38 PM

Tonight I made 6 measurements in my backyard.

Between hours 22.15 and 22.19: 18.95, 18.83, 18.85, 18.94, 18.91, 18.91.
ie 18.9 +/- 0.15 (Mean 18.9, standard deviation 0.05

My SQM reads: 19.08, 19.11, 19.13, 19.11, 19.12.
ie 19.1 +/- 0.05 (Mean 19.11, standard deviation 0.019

Edited by Mauro Da Lio (08/12/13 04:44 PM)


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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6022050 - 08/13/13 12:54 AM

If I understand your results
app = 21.84, SQM = 21.64 (app +0.2)
app = 18.9, SQM = 19.1 (app -0.2)

So the app calibration needs to have at least two offset points, since it seems to be at best a linear slope difference v. the SQM, not a constant offset, and 0.4 mag over a range of 2.6 mag is, to me at least, significant.

If this is repeatable, of course.


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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #6022171 - 08/13/13 03:38 AM

Yes, but there are two calibration settings for above and below 21. However it is not clear how they works (maybe there are two different algorithms?).

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Nop
Vendor (iPushto)


Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Netherlands, Valkenburg
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6026731 - 08/15/13 09:22 AM

@Mauro,
Your measurements and comparisons are great. I'm wondering what kind of device are you using?
Please note that a unihedron SQM is made for dark sky measurements, with dedicated hardware. The DSM software is made to correct a lot of camera-specific items like gamma correction, dark noise etc. Because an iPhone programmer doesn't have direct access to hardware and cannot stat things like temperature the reading will always be a little fuzzy compared to a dedicated hardware SQM meter.


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Nop
Vendor (iPushto)


Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Netherlands, Valkenburg
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #6026739 - 08/15/13 09:25 AM

And a little update about the map. The map visible in the app is live. The map on the website ( www.darkskymeter.com/map ) is updated weekly. This is because i am validating measurements. The map now contains 1500+ measurements. The amount of measurements is growing rapidly because most of the users are in the Northern Hemisphere and darkness is coming back

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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #6028568 - 08/16/13 05:09 AM

Hi No, I think the DSM has an advantage compared to the SQM, which is immediate transparent data logging (try to input measurements by hand to the Unihedron Database!).

One feature that would be very useful wold be the possibility to query all reading in a location (all within a give radius) and plot them against time.

I am using a standard SQM. Mine seems to be a bit optimistic. Compared to others it reads on average 0.05-0.1 mags darker.

As for the SQM if it were possible to close the camera diaphragm and shot (ie to take a dark automatically) then it would also be possible to take 5 darks and 5 readings in a row, and by averaging to get a much better estimate.

The spectral response of the SQM is likely to be different from that of the camera, and thus the two devices will respond differently to polluted skie (mostly polluted in red) and pristine skies. So far it seems that if I take 5 readings and average them, and correct for the bias i can get a good estimate of the sky.


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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6028873 - 08/16/13 10:33 AM

Quote:

One feature that would be very useful wold be the possibility to query all reading in a location (all within a give radius) and plot them against time.
[...]
As for the SQM if it were possible to close the camera diaphragm and shot (ie to take a dark automatically) then it would also be possible to take 5 darks and 5 readings in a row, and by averaging to get a much better estimate.
[...]
So far it seems that if I take 5 readings and average them, and correct for the bias i can get a good estimate of the sky.



I too hope this feature comes, and also building a map as the number of readings greatly increases.

I think Mauro meant DSM app above where he wrote SQM. I too hope you can add a function where you automate taking 5 consecutive readings and averaging them together. Then, if calibrated, you seem to get a quite consistent result.

It would be nice to hear about what the calibration actually does to readings of various levels.


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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #6029130 - 08/16/13 12:47 PM

Well, if the dark can be automated, nothing prevents to take continuous measurements (may the battery life L;-) thus getting something like the SQM-LE logs.

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Nop
Vendor (iPushto)


Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Netherlands, Valkenburg
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6048236 - 08/27/13 06:13 AM

Yes, more readings and averaging will make the app much more reliable. The problem still is that Apple doesn't allow us to control exposure and shutter directly, otherwise we could trigger a series of measurements. I'll think about it. The consequence is that the reading will take much longer than a unihedron reading.
We are aware that the number of pins grows every day. Almost 300 readings a week now. So we might port the map to fusion tables (if possible). And yes, i really like to experiment with a query tool. But it will take some time.
FYI: we've split the R, G, B channels in the database, the separate values will be used for evaluation by scientists.


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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #6048759 - 08/27/13 12:47 PM

Hi,

Splitting the RGB channels may bee a good way to evaluate the light pollution. Polluting light is redder that the natural airglow (which is green). Thus the G-R, B-R information is related to artificial skyglow.
See here one example. This was may last might (the one related to the readings above).
http://oi39.tinypic.com/2cxj85u.jpg
This is another site ~30 km south (nearer to populated areas)
http://oi41.tinypic.com/5kgaq8.jpg
The two pictures point the same direction (Aquarius). You can notice the greenish background (airglow) in the first and the reddish background in the second. The sky was 21.6-21.7 in the first (Cygnus Milky Way) whereas it was 21.4-21.5 in the second one year before.

However there is no to link the G minus R reading to the amount of artificial skyglow to my knowledge.

PS There apps like NightCamera, ProCam and Camera+ that look like being able to control the shutter speed. In Particular Night Camera allows to set the exposure time up to 1 s and reduce di ISO speed. If it takes longer than the SQM that is not much important compared to advantage of having automatic logging (and in the future the ability to study LP in one location). This is a feature that can be obtained only with a SQM-LE and it is not so simple (I mean I do not want to bring my MacBook at minus 20 to find out that the battery dies).

Edited by Mauro Da Lio (08/27/13 12:50 PM)


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Nop
Vendor (iPushto)


Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Netherlands, Valkenburg
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6050054 - 08/28/13 04:53 AM

Hi Mauro,
Thanks for your interesting links! My app sums up all channels (except l). It might be interesting to experiment with addition of only G-R or R-B, and see if results get better. Apple probits long exposures (by simply not letting us developers control the exposure time). My workaround is stacking (and averaging) single frames. I suspect that other apps do that too. Harro found another interesting 'issue'. The FOV of the DSM is so small that a single bright star (say Wega) can influence the reading with 0.2 . So we'll start experimenting with a new version and a slightly wider FOV and separate channels. ( I already started with a gamma correction). that way we hope to improve the readings and the reliability. Which is not bad wih multiple measurements.


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Mauro Da Lio
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/12/04

Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #6050102 - 08/28/13 06:13 AM

Hi, I suspect there is some workaround for the exposure time. Have a look at Night Camera: you can set up to 1 s time (may write them).

As for the FOV issue, why not summing up all pixels in say two-thirds central area of the detector (leave out the border which might be more noisy and suffers vignetting). By summing the signal of more pixel you may hopefully reduce noise.

Having three readings for R, G and B might be a plus compared to the SQM. In particular the difference G-B might be very informative of the actual amount of artificial light.

I am waiting to see the update.


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Nop
Vendor (iPushto)


Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Netherlands, Valkenburg
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #6073456 - 09/10/13 03:43 PM

@Mauro, thanks for the info. If you want to be a beta tester please let me know, i'll be happy to send you test versions!
@All
The map has been updated and zoom levels (groupings) have been implemented. Now with more than 2000 measurements! Dark skies are returning


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the1andonlyfinn
member


Reged: 07/17/11

Loc: Rancho Cucamonga, California
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #6104738 - 09/27/13 06:39 PM

Question: I downloaded the Pro app and have submitted readings for Rancho Cucamonga California and Fontana California, they show up on MY map on the app, but online neither reading shows up. How long before they go onto the "big map" ?

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Nop
Vendor (iPushto)


Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Netherlands, Valkenburg
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: the1andonlyfinn]
      #6108639 - 09/30/13 03:21 AM

I'm updating the map on the site by hand (mostly every day).
So stay tuned. I'm working on an automated process for validation and submitting. Until then the map is 'semi-live'


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the1andonlyfinn
member


Reged: 07/17/11

Loc: Rancho Cucamonga, California
Re: Dark Sky Meter Live map now online new [Re: Nop]
      #6108968 - 09/30/13 09:57 AM

Thanks! You might see a bump in readings from Southern California: I've been wandering about the Inland Empire to "flesh it out".

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