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General Astronomy >> Light Pollution

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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6078351 - 09/13/13 08:48 AM

Poison ivy is a beautiful climbing plant.....

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obin robinson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6078364 - 09/13/13 09:00 AM

If the guy is being a dork about it why not get a pin spot and aim it at his bedroom? Two can play at this game.

http://www.stagelightingstore.com/American-DJ-PL-1000-Pinspot?sc=25&categ...

Nobody lives in the house? Get a gobo that says "nobody lives here" and shine it on the house.

obin

Edited by obin robinson (09/13/13 09:02 AM)


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6078395 - 09/13/13 09:25 AM

Retaliating against a neighbor (or anyone) is never a good idea! I don't think this is what CN wishes to represent.

While we all wish to have dark skies, bullying others to suit our needs will do nothing to further our goal to reduce LP.


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Seanem44
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/22/11

Loc: Woodbridge, VA
Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6078436 - 09/13/13 09:51 AM

Quote:

Retaliating against a neighbor (or anyone) is never a good idea! I don't think this is what CN wishes to represent.

While we all wish to have dark skies, bullying others to suit our needs will do nothing to further our goal to reduce LP.




My response, as I have a feeling that the others are mostly the same, was firnly tongue-in-cheek. I assure you.


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magic612
Post Laureate
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Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: barbarosa]
      #6078482 - 09/13/13 10:27 AM

Quote:

Neither of the two active astronomy groups in the area pursues a darker sky agenda. Things are as they are, seems to be the motto.




Yes, this is my frustration with the astronomy clubs I am a part of. The discussion is 100% on, "Where can we find a dark sky?" rather than "How can we MAKE a dark sky?" Path of less resistance apparently is just driving farther and farther. The point I try to make is, "What are you going to do when the light catches up to you, and there's no where left to drive?" Sadly, it falls on deaf ears, mostly. Or, "Great idea Dave - YOU go do it."

Quote:

However, light is tough subject, and that won't change if we are timid.




TRUE.

Quote:

Every neighbor won over by whatever means is a victory, but in our modern world not much can be done one person at a time.




On that point I disagree. Having good lighting present as an example matters. "Look at the good lights that the Dodge car dealership has up." Or, "Ever notice how Joe just leaves his light off, despite having that expensive car? There's a reason for that..." It allows us to have a conversation with others. YES, we need political action too - I'm not disagreeing with your later point about that. But one at a time matters as well. We need a both/and strategy.

Quote:

Dark sky is now a politcal issue and will require legislated solutions. It might be sad, but one planning director or city coucilman is worth more than a neigbhor.




Yes, and this can be an even steeper uphill battle than one neighbor at a time (though you're right that getting one good political person on board can reap huge rewards for us).

My story: I got one neighbor to turn off her lights simply by asking. My wife got the library to change their lights when one burned out. I am still waiting - 2 years later - for either the electric company or the village to get something done about one of my other neighbor's lights, and the streetlight which both shine into my daughter's window.

And here's the point on that: We can then lobby both political leaders and neighbors on both the benefits, AND be able to SHOW them what is good about better light. My neighbor laughed/scoffed at me when I mentioned getting the streetlight changed, "HA! They'll never change it!" he declared. Of course, he doesn't know me well enough to realize how persistent I am. So if I can get even that one streetlight changed, I will be able to approach him again, and say, "Okay, the streetlight got changed... now what about YOUR light? Marie turns her lights off, the library changed theirs... see?" (Not that bluntly of course, but something along those lines.) It let's me point to examples for the prickly/stubborn ones.

Quote:

If we look at this as individual cases with individual solutions we are doomed. . I really urge everyone to make some effort and to expand on any effort that you do make.




I've been making astronomy videos for 2.5 years to get more people looking up at the night sky, so that light pollution is on their radar, and they will then DO something about their own lights.

We need to start by making the changes at our own homes. "Hi neighbor - look at the lights on my house. See how there's no glare? All the light goes down, and I can still see everything I need to see at night to walk, look for burglars, etc." An example matters.

And beyond that, we need to not talk about how it affects US, as amateur astronomers. "Oh, you can't see the stars? Go drive out into the country!" No one cares about OTHER people's issues. People care about what matters to THEM. So we need to focus on the reduction in crime stats when cities have turned off lights (Bristol and Essex UK are great examples), or how even the tiniest bits of light at night can disrupt your sleep (Dr. David Blask and Dr. George Brainard's work). If we say, "Do you know you could sleep better if it were darker - no pills, no sleep aids, no expensive curtains that don't block all the light - just DARKNESS?" we might get some people's attention. The U.S. spends 9 BILLION on sleep medications. Of course, everyone likes a secret too, so we can't just scream, "Turn off the lights!!" we need to approach like, "Hey, I discovered the secret to a great night's sleep... call me if you're interested."

BAM! You have their attention - you've got a secret, and have information they want.

I plan to do just that by talking about better sleep at library presentations. Imagine how much more we could accomplish if we approach it that way. Yes, the political side - totally agreed. But we need to get citizens on board too. Politicians listen to squeaky wheels, and if squeaky wheels are only hearing, "We need more light because CRIME!" (even if there is effectively no crime, like where I live, yet we have hundreds of lights - and it's not because of them we have no crime), they will do what will get them VOTES - or more accurately, they will do what will not LOSE them votes.

In other words, educate EVERYONE. And be in it for the long haul, too.

So that's a really long way of both responding to your points, and saying to the OP "Take the long view." I know it's frustrating. I've been dealing with lights spewing onto my yard for years, and haven't made a ton of progress. But I've made some, and will make more. It just takes time. Be patient, work out a positive approach to get the changes made. And in the meantime, put up light shields.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6078661 - 09/13/13 12:34 PM

Yes, hopefully you can work things out with the neighbor...but if not, that's what the laws and court orders are for.....and you should not feel bad about using them...because truthfully, he's the one with a problem, not you...

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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6078912 - 09/13/13 03:16 PM

I think that you and I are in substantial agreement. I like what you are doing. All lawfully methods are open to us, grass roots and up, and we must use them or watch the sky brighten.

The medical secret idea is great.

I was wathing a Universal release the other night. I always liked their evolving hallmark globe. The latest version is the globe moves to the globe at night, lights and more lights and in both hemisphers.

We have a tough row to hoe.


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Seanem44
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/22/11

Loc: Woodbridge, VA
Re: court order new [Re: barbarosa]
      #6078931 - 09/13/13 03:25 PM

I do not consider myself a tree hugger or an environmentalist by any stretch of the imagination. My Silverado 1500 and NRA sticker alone is a dead giveaway.

However, light pollution is a cause I readily take up. While I was on the HOA board for my neighborhood I grilled a car dealership next to our neighborhood that was expanding on the types of lights they planned to install. They're plan seemed adequate and the lights are of the cut off variety.

This is a war that I feel can only be won in the political realm.

Edited by Seanem44 (09/13/13 03:26 PM)


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dce21b
member


Reged: 09/12/13

Re: court order new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6079477 - 09/13/13 09:49 PM

This

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Brett Carlson
sage


Reged: 12/12/11

Loc: Rochester, NY
Re: court order new [Re: dce21b]
      #6079499 - 09/13/13 10:09 PM

I text my neighbors and ask them to "please turn off the sun" and the couple that have strong front lights shut them down.

It's also their cue to come out and view if they want to. We have a pretty close knit neighborhood. I guess I'm lucky in that respect.


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bunyon
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: court order new [Re: Brett Carlson]
      #6079980 - 09/14/13 08:48 AM

Brett has it right; if you know your neighbors well, help them out occasionally, etc., its much easier to ask a favor.

As to political action, sure that's the only way to solve the problem long term. But one a crystal clear Friday night, if much rather be out with my scope than lobbying someone.


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: bunyon]
      #6080122 - 09/14/13 10:28 AM

Quote:

Brett has it right; if you know your neighbors well, help them out occasionally, etc., its much easier to ask a favor.

As to political action, sure that's the only way to solve the problem long term. But one a crystal clear Friday night, if much rather be out with my scope than lobbying someone.




So would I. However, favors are certainly easier to ask if you help out, but - they are no guarantee.

With the one set of neighbors I have which leave a 60W incandescent bulb on all night (and all day - yes, really), I have tried the "you catch more flies with honey" approach. My wife and I have

1) Helped them out with yardwork over the years
2) Patronized their businesses (with quite a bit of money)
3) Repeatedly talked to them about what I do outside with telescopes and invited them to observe (they don't care)

And yet, they pretty much told me to go jump in a lake when I asked them to change their bulb (a bulb I provided TO them, even) simply to one that shines down on their driveway and not up into my daughter's second floor window, or in my higher-than-bulb-level living room windows.

So what exactly DOES one do when "the honey doesn't attract the fly" anymore?

I have asked nicely three times now (and dropped subtle and not so subtle hints many more times), and been rebuffed every single time. I am out of "asking a favor" options with them, except to use the local ordinance of "nuisance lighting" which will still be an uphill battle since there is no enforcement mechanism. So yes, I too don't want to spend time at local political meetings, but if I am going to have an impact on my community in a positive way, and hopefully help others by sharing those experiences, I need to get involved.

Sometimes, even with honey, you aren't going to catch all the flies. So yes, we need to be lobbying and getting involved politically. If not us, who will do it? And what will be left of the nighttime sky for our children and grandchildren? Not every Friday night is clear - hence this site's name.

I see it this way: When loud music is playing, a call to law enforcement is placed, and the music generally gets turned down within an hour (unless a permit was obtained, and even then, it's usually just one night). With lights, it's non-stop, always on. We are forced to run our air conditioning on cool nights rather than leave the windows open because my daughter must leave her light block curtains closed (which STILL don't block all of the light). We ought to be able to sleep in peace, and make the case to our municipalities based on solid evidence that lighting is deleterious to both health and sleep, and more light doesn't reduce crime (all backed up by studies and real-life experiences of other cities).

Slow, not fun, and not my idea of a fun Friday night. But I'm willing to get involved and make a difference. I hope others will "sacrifice" their cloudy nights and do 1/2 as much in their local area. Imagine what we could accomplish if a whole lot of people even half-heartedly worked at this, instead of finding 'better things to do'?


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Mittag56
sage


Reged: 07/08/09

Loc: West Amboy, N.Y.
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6080210 - 09/14/13 11:23 AM

In a way I'm glad to see others have the same problems I do...but that being said there are some people that are impervious to any kind of being approach... Good or bad....my problem seems like a reasonable fella but the wife is so scared of living in the country I'm wondering why they do.....when I put my building and deck in he was there every day..even helping at one point...he was aware what it was etc....he has lived there for years outside lights were in place and I there for chose the placement of my new digs to make everything friendly for all involved....first week was OK...second week found a pole lamp half way across the lawn and right where it burned my eyes out...story goes his weed Wacker was stolen.....he left it next to the main road on the edge of the ditch and went inside for a 2 hour nap...guess he figgered it would still be there next day.....not sure what frappin good this light will do him but I've erected shades of studio lighting cloth....and once in a while. My laser or flashlight will flash cross a window.....and my new app of coyote and wounded rabbit calls sounds real nice on my speaker system.....I've asked...talked...explained...to no avail some people just won't think or compromise..... So I do my thing best I can....and he thinks that 150 watt bare bulb lamp post will protect his stuff...that's his thing....just say in...got to get it out of my system somehow... Thanks for letting me do that.

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: Mittag56]
      #6080249 - 09/14/13 11:40 AM

Quote:

and once in a while. My laser or flashlight will flash cross a window.




Wow!! I definitely think that using a laser in this manner is very innapropriate & irresponsible & possibly dangerous to the people in the house, and leads to why many hate lasers!


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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6080292 - 09/14/13 12:20 PM

Quote:




So what exactly DOES one do when "the honey doesn't attract the fly" anymore?

I see it this way: When loud music is playing, a call to law enforcement is placed, and the music generally gets turned down within an hour (unless a permit was obtained, and even then, it's usually just one night). With lights, it's non-stop, always on. We are forced to run our air conditioning on cool nights rather than leave the windows open because my daughter must leave her light block curtains closed (which STILL don't block all of the light). We ought to be able to sleep in peace, and make the case to our municipalities based on solid evidence that lighting is deleterious to both health and sleep, and more light doesn't reduce crime (all backed up by studies and real-life experiences of other cities).






Please understand that my suggestion/s are simply my passive-aggressive nature at work:

Forget the honey and turn the Quid Pro Quo you've been attempting around.
Since you have to use A/C anyways, maybe you can install a "cheap" heat exchanger system that has an obnoxiously loud outside unit. Mount the unit close to the property line between you and the neighbor and direct the noise generated by it in their direction. If the outside unit isn't loud enough to get the point across, you can always "modify" it till it does. No loud music or law enforcement involved.
Better and cheaper yet, Go on Craigslist and obtain an old outside unit that time has modified for you already, do the same as above, and just run the fan and compressor 24/7/365. When they complain about the noise, tell them that you were forced to install the unit due to the steps you had to take to keep the light from intruding into your home and that you also have every right to your own comfort.


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6080377 - 09/14/13 01:11 PM

Quote:

Since you have to use A/C anyways, maybe you can install a "cheap" heat exchanger system that has an obnoxiously loud outside unit. Mount the unit close to the property line between you and the neighbor and direct the noise generated by it in their direction.




That might be useful if:

1) Their A/C unit wasn't already louder than ours
2) Their A/C unit wasn't already closer to their bedroom window than any unit I could install on my property, which would be blocked by their garage and/or vehicles in their driveway
3) It weren't closer to my daughter's window than theirs



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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6080446 - 09/14/13 01:48 PM

Quote:



That might be useful if:

1) Their A/C unit wasn't already louder than ours
2) Their A/C unit wasn't already closer to their bedroom window than any unit I could install on my property, which would be blocked by their garage and/or vehicles in their driveway
3) It weren't closer to my daughter's window than theirs






Dang! I tried.


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richard7Moderator
Not Quite
*****

Reged: 11/02/07

Loc: Sacramento
Re: court order new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6080760 - 09/14/13 05:02 PM

Have you ever invited the family over for a BBQ and some evening stargazing? This talk about revenge can get out of hand.
There is one rule that always holds true. Revenge brings on retaliation which brings on hatred which brings on a war which brings on a bad neighborhood and ulcers and, and.
Bottom line, IT DOESN'T WORK.


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: richard7]
      #6080812 - 09/14/13 05:39 PM

Richard, not sure if you were addressing me or not, but if so, yes, I have tried that approach, several times, to no avail. And no worries, I am not considering going the revenge/retaliation route - as satisfying as that can feel when the thought crosses my mind, I know that long-term it is not a viable option. I just want to go the route of results, which may take time, and which may not make them as happy as they'd like to be (spewing light every which way 24/7/365), but this will be a long process of education for a lot of people around town, not just them.

I plan to make the most of it, not myopically focus only on getting one single lamppost changed.


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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: richard7]
      #6080884 - 09/14/13 06:36 PM

Well Richard, Dave has communicated in this thread, and in another associated thread, that his neighbor has made it abundantly clear that they have absolutely no interest whatsoever in cooperating with regard to the issue and is only willing to be a good neighbor on his terms only. If you scroll back up the page you'll see that Dave has gone out of his way to do his part of being more than just a good neighbor. Apparently the neighbor just doesn't care about anyone else but themselves.

It could be matter of semantics when it comes to our differing views, but If you go by the current definition, you'll clearly see that I was not suggesting revenge in any way, shape, or form. I was simply suggesting to Dave a subtle manner in which he might let his neighbor know that if they can be nuisance, Dave could do likewise. Just a way for Dave to create a bargaining position to use. Nothing more. Maybe the neighbor would get the message, but most likely he wouldn't.
I'm sorry if you felt that I was trying to make a bad situation worse, but for Dave to simply take what's being dished out to him is obviously going to get him no where. Not knowing what his neighbor may do next to exacerbate the situation, Dave needs to put his foot down and let the them know that enough is enough.

Your call sign reminds me that in the HAM world(BTW, KE6LDN), that when RF is being transmitted by one individual and that RF gets into the neighbors equipment and causes a ruckus, by law, it's the neighbor's problem. However, it's extremely poor when the individual broadcasting the RF does not to attempt to mitigate the situation. Being that RF and light are the same thing, I think you can see the similarity here. However, in most states there are laws on the books that address the issue of light trespass. Using the law should be a last resort and that's what Dave has been trying to avoid.

Edited by Jeff Phinney (09/14/13 07:49 PM)


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