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General Astronomy >> Light Pollution

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amicus sidera
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6082835 - 09/15/13 09:19 PM

Welcome to small-town America, Okiestarman56, where the folks can be ever so reasonable and accommodating to those with interests differing from their own.

I don't know your personal situation and so have no advice to offer, but were I in a similar position I would move well outside of town, if at all possible. Best to be as far from the insular, generally ill-educated folks who make up a substantial portion of the population as one can get. Anyone differing from their societal norms will be subject to endless gossip and finger-pointing at best, and open hostility at worst; owning an astronomical telescope and objecting to light trespass is certainly more than sufficient to qualify one as "different" by their standards. Been there, done that, got the pictures back...

That said, what has appalled me in reading this thread is not so much the actions of the neighbor(s) in question, or the obviously facetious remarks regarding tit-for-tat behavior, but the Pollyanna, lay-down-and-be-walked-on attitude expressed in a few posts. Appeasing bullies is a proper course of action only if one desperately desires to be further bullied... or at least it is in the real world.

Fred


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #6083750 - 09/16/13 11:38 AM

Sometimes bullies only understand one thing........amazing how doscile they become afterwards.....call his bluff and get the court order......

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obin robinson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: court order new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #6083867 - 09/16/13 12:35 PM

Quote:

In court you might want to make the point it's your daughters bedroom they are illuminating. Might help with the order.




Ditto. All the judge needs to hear is "this guy has a bright light shining into my daughter's bedroom window at night" and that's all the judge needs to hear. Something tells me that light won't be on after that.

obin


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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6086224 - 09/17/13 03:15 PM

Quote:

went back the next day as he was cutting down some trees to offer some help and apologize for any misunderstanding we had on our first meeting--BIG MISTAKE. Did not want my help and did I have a court order yet. His brother owns the house and he just takes care of the property for him, no one lives in the home. Home has been broke into before, lights (3) are on 24-7 North porch light, North west corner 2 floods, lights up 3 yards. No city ordinance on lights. After a night at the Tallgrass prairie, it is more work to load and drive but after Okie-Tex I will be going to the city council to start talks with them about saving our skies, oh yea police already have had calls about a guy with a rocket launcher, got to love this town.




Okie,
Here's a thought:
As everyone knows, it's not uncommon for a mundane civil situation to turn into a raging disaster because of simple miscommunication. The real problem could very well be the brother's interpretation of the issue and what appears to be a lack of tactful communication on his part. Assuming that you are dealing with the property owner/s brother (or someone who is conveniently claiming not to be the property owner/s), and if the brother is being used as the communication conduit between you and the property owner/s, maybe it would be to your benefit to seek out the actual owner/s and contact them directly to plead your case, explain your situation, and issues . Remove the middle man, so to speak.
Who the current property owners are should be a matter of public record(County recorder?). Before seeking a court order, I'd start there. A very diplomatically worded and thought out letter can go a great deal further in getting what you need when dealing straight with the pertinent party/s.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6086277 - 09/17/13 03:52 PM

or write the local gov't a letter about that empty house next to you with it's lights on all the time.....seems he's really going out of his way to get broken into again anyways......Nothing says "Nobody Home" like lights on 24hrs a day.....besides, it's not just his house they'd be scoping out (pun not intended)....they know he's not home, and see that nice shiney telescope you have setting in your back yard...or your daughter......He's actually putting you and your neighbors in danger..........and not just from light pollution.

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Tom and Beth
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/08/07

Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6086322 - 09/17/13 04:23 PM

To the original poster:

The suggestion above to contact the OWNER of the home and try to smooth over ruffled feathers is a good suggestion. Failing that, might I suggest you just build a non assuming roll off roof Observatory? One that blocks his lights and just let you move on with your love of the sky? I would suggest you document your current situation with some night pictures, should they then turn vindictive and INTENTIONALLY shine a bright light on your new building (and which then is much easier to have the local magistrates deal with trespass)

Life is short. I truly hope you can work out a good neighbor solution. But the stress, cost and aggravation of "fighting" will hurt YOU more than the dent to your wallet.


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calypsob
sage
*****

Reged: 04/20/13

Re: court order new [Re: Tom and Beth]
      #6086775 - 09/17/13 08:51 PM

Suggestions

1. Call the power company and get a quote for a price on adding on off timers to the light posts. Print up the bill, write up a contract, go to the atm and take out cash in $100 increments and clip this to the top of the contract, throw in an extra $100. Cash is king.

2. If you are an astrophotographer, build a printed portfolio in a giant portfolio folder. Take your portfolio to your neighbor and tell him that you are trying to do work for your local university and that on the precious days that the sky is clear you need to do your work in the dark.

3. This is what I actually did to get a farmer to use his property for astrophotography whenever I want. I wrote up a contract saying that I would pick up roadside trash on the second Saturday of every month if I could use his property at night. I knocked on his door one afternoon and he was so happy because he is getting old and the local rednecks out in the sticks throw beer bottles and cans out on the side of his property all the time. It takes me about an hour to complete the job, he has 30 acres of property. Of course you could always substitute trash with mowing the lawn, raking leaves, or whatever else.

My last idea would be to either build a wall from 4x4's and roofing aluminum to block the light, or plant a row of Leland cypress trees as a barrier.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: calypsob]
      #6087534 - 09/18/13 09:08 AM

Quote:

1. Call the power company and get a quote for a price on adding on off timers to the light posts.




Depending on the power company, this may not be allowed. Here, no on/off switches or timers are allowed on any of the power company lights. Not even if it's on private property, and owner is paying monthly for the service. How do I know? I had a yard light; and I asked about this & was told absolutely nothing can be done with the light. So, the power company was told to come up & get their light.


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bunyon
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6087599 - 09/18/13 09:44 AM

I had the same experience as Carol. I was told that the light is city property and their policy is it is on as long as it is dark.

I was disappointed that I called in the end because it created a record with my name in which I wanted the light out. So if anything should "happen" to said light, they would know who to call.

I've spent a lot of time, with some success in turning it off by shining a light on it. I got lucky in that the original mercury lamp quit after I turned it off and on many times in rapid succession (I know from work that this will happen). They replaced it 4 years later with a sodium lamp that is much more robust. I have a laser that turns it off but the laser dims after about ten minutes.

Still working.

Lots of good suggestions in this thread but, in the end, it comes down to the neighbor. A reasonable neighbor would work with you. An unreasonable neighbor requires outside forces (such as the subject line court order) and that may not always be possible.

I think it illustrates that if you're ever going to move somewhere for a dark sky, you should not move to a place that has close neighbors. You need a lot of land and, preferably, some natural barrier such as hills or trees.

Good luck to the OP and everyone who is fighting this fight.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: bunyon]
      #6087632 - 09/18/13 10:01 AM

"I think it illustrates that if you're ever going to move somewhere for a dark sky, you should not move to a place that has close neighbors."

Gawd I miss my 5 acres outside of Edgewood, NM........now I'm in White Zone Denver with skyscrapers across the street....and the City JUST gave me four, counte'm FOUR new streetlights (there used to be only two). One on each corner (I'm on a corner lot). Nice, tall, bright orangish-white light.....nothing can be done. I can read a book in my back yard now without any other light......


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orion61

*****

Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6087832 - 09/18/13 11:43 AM

I think the movement sensors is the best option, and I cannot see a reason for him declining the offer especially if you offer to pay for them.
Light pollution is the same as tree branches hanging over property, You have the right to trim it, I just had a fight
with my neighbor over it this winter when a huge branch off his huge old tree fell on my camper parked in my back yard.
Video record yourself offering to put up the motion detectors or shields. If he refuses take him to small claims court for the cost of building a 10' tall fence between the properties! You have the right to enjoy your yard period! and his light IS polluting your property.
You should be able to view your yard day or night and open the windows for fresh air without having flocking drapes pulled.
If there would be someone in his yard and triggers the lights, it would scare would be invaders more than the constant "ON" welcome to my home lights.
If you provide a reasonable case the Judge has no other option than ruling in your favor! Just be prepaired for the arguement.
It would be the same for LOUD Music, Smoke from an open Fire Pit, or His pets on your property.
You will prevail.
Like I said I had to go this rout with my Neighbor. I WON!
Good Luck.


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Seanem44
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 09/22/11

Loc: Woodbridge, VA
Re: court order new [Re: orion61]
      #6087969 - 09/18/13 12:48 PM

I'm assuming you do not live in a neighborhood with an HOA. that is unfortunate.

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Kraus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6088104 - 09/18/13 01:58 PM


Herr Okie,

You moved into a house next to another house. Houses come with lights. To get the skies you want, you'll have to move 'not next' to a house. I take it you're in the city, lights everywhere?


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obin robinson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: court order new [Re: orion61]
      #6088150 - 09/18/13 02:18 PM

Quote:

If he refuses take him to small claims court for the cost of building a 10' tall fence between the properties! You have the right to enjoy your yard period! and his light IS polluting your property.




You bring up a good point. Couldn't you bring up the ordinance for lighting and then bring him to court to pay for your light blocking supplies if he doesn't obey the ordinance?

obin


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okiestarman56
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/10/08

Loc: 36.40'178" N 95.20'087" W
Re: court order new [Re: Kraus]
      #6088447 - 09/18/13 05:09 PM

do not consider next door, his lights are 133' 9" and with an alley between and small tree which is loosing leaves like crazy now. As a disabled vet on fixed income resources are limited. Use Dark sky Finder and find Pawhuska,OK and see what is just North of me, packing up every time I want to observe at 61 would sour me real quick to find a new hobby like knitting. This was to be our last move.

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Kraus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6089545 - 09/19/13 08:53 AM


Ah ha! I suggest then build a light blocker. Another thread elsewhere shows some neat ideas.

I have a light shroud attached to Big Bertha. When I get under it, my eyes thank me. Even a full moon doesn't bother me. Last Saturday I observed the Veil with an 80% gibbous moon.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: Kraus]
      #6089644 - 09/19/13 10:06 AM

Ah, the good old days, when we were children and were easily entertained with a "Y" shaped stick and some rubber bands.....even our toys were cheap....but fun.....

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schinia
member


Reged: 05/17/13

Loc: cape carteret,NC
Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6092354 - 09/20/13 07:23 PM

i knew a few so called Dr Jeckle Mr Hyde types, changing in a matter of moments. STAY AWAY FROM THAT TYPE ! as my late father used to say "*BLEEP* H*^ls are dangerous" also being nice, and always bending over backwards doesn't always work. it certainly works when your neighbor want's something, but doesn't work the moment you do ! SOOO with that said i can read people rather quick, and if i feel talking isn't going to get me any where i will become very resourceful.

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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: schinia]
      #6096529 - 09/23/13 10:14 AM

Thousands of years of human study into the sociological aspects of man has come up with the following summarized theorum:

"Don't get mad, get even."

Peace is our ultimate goal, War is the tool we have chosen to get there.......go figure....


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Gil V
sage


Reged: 09/09/12

Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6096577 - 09/23/13 10:41 AM

How old is your daughter?

Here is what to do.

Have her go over one afternoon with tears in her eyes. Have her talk to the woman of the house. In tears, let her explain to the woman how she couldn't complete her astronomy project for school because the neighbor's lights prevented her from using the scope with her dad.

Problem solved.

Oh, you might have to pay your daughter to do this, but it will be the best $100 you ever spent.


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