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General Astronomy >> Light Pollution

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okiestarman56
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/10/08

Loc: 36.40'10.30"N 96.20'04.90" W
court order
      #6074408 - 09/11/13 04:59 AM

30 days ago moved to another town with darker skies, shoot 15 miles north puts me into a black zone. Only problem is I can not observe from my house due to light trespass from neighbor who does not even live in his house, nobody lives in it! I was very diplomatic and nice when I talked with him about adding some shields to the two lights, offered to buy them and install them, he said not to worry that he would take care of them and thanked him and went back to work in my yard. 15 minutes late he came over with an offensive attitude and told me the only way he would shield them is if I got a court order. What do I do know get a court order?, packing my gear and driving to the black zone when I want to observe is out of the question as I observe 3 to 4 nights a week. Or do I pack up and move back to the yellow zone I left. Any ideas.

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6074701 - 09/11/13 09:56 AM

First, check to see if the town has any ordinances regarding light trespass. If there is, talk with an official of the town to see how to proceed.

I would possibly approach this guy again, and ask nicely what you did for him to change his attitude so abruptly; and if something can be worked out between you & him so that both parties are happy.

If neither works, perhaps build some light shields.


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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6075411 - 09/11/13 03:48 PM

Quote:

If neither works, perhaps build some light shields.




The fight, and it some respects it is a fight, to stop or reduce light pollution and trespass, requires active not passive tactics. If we assume the burden of mitigating the (impact light shields), it is yet another loss. Education and persuasion are the best approach, but frankly most people just do not care. That makes the legislation the best action tool.

If your local government does have a lighting ordinance, in most states, you cannot compel enforcement, you can only ask. When you ask having others join with you is more effective.

After that try small claims courts. You have a legal right to the peaceful enjoyment of your property (in every state). If all else fails small claims might work. One of my neighbors used a small claims filling to get the attention of a commercial property owner. The result was a compromise, but an improvement.

If you have a lot of money, get a lawyer to write a letter, and then prepare to spend a lot more if you want to go to court for injunctive relief.

Good luck.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: barbarosa]
      #6075434 - 09/11/13 03:57 PM

I'm not suggesting to rely on "passive tactics". However, if trying to reason with this individual, nor any codes to assist him, rather than having to move, LP panels would at least help him observe.

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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6075489 - 09/11/13 04:30 PM

and light bulbs have been know to burn out......

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6075709 - 09/11/13 07:13 PM

Quote:

I'm not suggesting to rely on "passive tactics". However, if trying to reason with this individual, nor any codes to assist him, rather than having to move, LP panels would at least help him observe.






There are bigger issues that the world faces.

Jon


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richard7Moderator
Not Quite
*****

Reged: 11/02/07

Loc: Sacramento
Re: court order new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6075763 - 09/11/13 08:03 PM

Always try to live with your neighbors, not against them

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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
*****

Reged: 01/04/04

Loc: AR
Re: court order new [Re: richard7]
      #6075989 - 09/11/13 10:19 PM

Build some light shades with bright colored tarps, with the bright side facing out, and leave them up 24/7. He might ask you to remove them, and then you will have negotiating power.

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1965healy
The Snarkster
*****

Reged: 06/23/07

Loc: San Antonio, TX
Re: court order new [Re: John Fitzgerald]
      #6076061 - 09/11/13 11:10 PM

Most people see lighting as a blessing rather than a curse. Darkness means the potential for danger. If no one lives in the house I'm sure he sees them as added security against trespassers or burglars. It probably means nothing to him when you talk about them interfering with your hobby, trying to explain it in terms of dark adaptation may help but I doubt it. If they shine in your bedroom windows you have an argument that most folks understand.

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Brent Campbell
sage


Reged: 02/09/10

Loc: Olympia, WA
Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6076417 - 09/12/13 06:56 AM

Quote:

and light bulbs have been know to burn out......




Very true!


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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
*****

Reged: 01/04/04

Loc: AR
Re: court order new [Re: Brent Campbell]
      #6076514 - 09/12/13 08:29 AM

Nobody lives in the house. I missed that the first time. Why not unscrew the bulbs a bit while you are out and tighten them back when you are done?

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: John Fitzgerald]
      #6076618 - 09/12/13 09:38 AM

Quote:

Nobody lives in the house. I missed that the first time. Why not unscrew the bulbs a bit while you are out and tighten them back when you are done?




I would definitely ask the owner first. With the attitude shown, if someone else reports back to the neighbor, the OP could be charged with tresspassing.


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FirstSight
Duke of Deneb
*****

Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6076728 - 09/12/13 10:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Nobody lives in the house. I missed that the first time. Why not unscrew the bulbs a bit while you are out and tighten them back when you are done?




I would definitely ask the owner first. With the attitude shown, if someone else reports back to the neighbor, the OP could be charged with tresspassing.




I'm curious whether, the OP unwittingly made some mis-steps in approaching his semi-absentee neighbor about the lights, despite believing he was doing so in a polite, diplomatic manner. How much did he chat up, i.e. schmooze a bit with the neighbor first before broaching the subject of the lights? Did he first create the vibe where the neighbor's first impression of the OP living next door is reassuringly positive rather than indifferent or concerning? Was the issue of the lighting practically the first thing out of the OP's mouth?

By saying this, I'm not at all conclusively presuming the OP did go about it all wrong; some people, some property owners are simply cantankerous and mercurial PITAs to reasonably deal with. However, the OP's description does leave open the possibility that despite what he perceived as the neighbor's initial momentary receptiveness to his proposal, he nevertheless somehow rubbed the neighbor wrong, and while the neighbor stepped away for a few minutes, irritation from the wrong-way vibe prevailed over his superficial initial agreeableness. Maybe the guy IS also a bit mercurial and cantankerous to boot, but those are the sort of folks whom it's especially important to schmooze up a bit first before making any negotiating demands upon them.

Think about it: the OP's reaction to the abrupt turn-around turn-down by his neighbor was to think "court orders" rather than trying first to fix a relationship that had inadvertently got off on the wrong foot.

Edited by FirstSight (09/12/13 10:47 AM)


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Thomas Karpf
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 02/09/09

Loc: Newington, CT
Re: court order new [Re: FirstSight]
      #6077018 - 09/12/13 01:33 PM

Assuming that 'security' is the issue, point out that bad guys need to see as well.

A darkened house, with light bulbs loosened inside, makes it EASIER for someone outside to see that someone is snooping around when someone has to use a flash light to look around.

Also, point out that as YOU are living there and HIS house is unoccupied most of the time,

IF HE TURNS OFF THE OUTSIDE LIGHTS OFF WHEN HE IS AWAY, you will call the police if you see/hear anything out of the ordinary.

IF HE LEAVES THE LIGHTS ON, you will just chuckle that the annoying neighbor is getting what he deserves when the bad guys break in.


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Jesus Munoz
sage


Reged: 03/09/07

Loc: Querétaro, México
Re: court order new [Re: Thomas Karpf]
      #6077453 - 09/12/13 05:22 PM

Make him this offer: Put movement sensors and offer you to check his house when it lights up. Win-win.

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Phil Cowell
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/24/07

Loc: Southern Tier NY
Re: court order new [Re: John Fitzgerald]
      #6077520 - 09/12/13 05:58 PM

Quote:

Build some light shades with bright colored tarps, with the bright side facing out, and leave them up 24/7. He might ask you to remove them, and then you will have negotiating power.




Maybe there needs to be a hall of light pollution shame website where folks could post pictures and location information on. Bad publicity works.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #6077812 - 09/12/13 09:47 PM

View Naked....have the entire neighborhood beg him to turn off the lights!

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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6078178 - 09/13/13 02:59 AM

Quote:

I'm not suggesting to rely on "passive tactics".


Understood and gentle persuasion is always good. However, but in the middle ground between passivity and malicious mischief, we should tend to move toward activism of a peaceful sort.

I write that as one who is very frustrated with the small gains we make locally and the constant pressure from the land and business groups to move backwards. LEDs undercut the resource conservation argument; almost no one sees sea turtles or the fate of migratory birds. The health argument is not persuasive (at least not yet). Concern for astronomy does not make the list.

There are three nearby observatories. One is urban for public education. One is on college campus, and the director says the sky is so bad he does not worry about his own lights, let alone any ohthers. The third belongs to the University of California. It has a semi-working 30" and and a broken 20" and is in a fairly protected valley. No effort was ever made to deal with light pollution so we have this.

There are literally thousands of acres of open space (parks, watersheds, reservoirs, and some vineyards and grazing land nearby. The land is rural according to the Census, but the sky is increasingly urban (red headed for white). None of the abutting cities or the county requires zero uplight fixtures. We have some strong open space groups, and they all say that they do not want to dilute their main efforts with a lighting controversy. Neither of the two active astronomy groups in the area pursues a darker sky agenda. Things are as they are, seems to be the motto.

California has a reputation for liberal, green, etc, rules, causes, and policies. I live in an upper income (them not me) area with a very high percentage of college grads and professionals. However, light is tough subject, and that won't change if we are timid.

Every neighbor won over by whatever means is a victory, but in our modern world not much can be done one person at a time. Dark sky is now a politcal issue and will require legislated solutions. It might be sad, but one planning director or city coucilman is worth more than a neigbhor.

In my case if it was only the neighbors, the problem would not be a problem, any of them would turn out a light, even the ones who barely know each other.

The OP has dark sky and I wish him well with the neigbor, but whether he wins or not very little changes. If we look at this as individual cases with individual solutions we are doomed. . I really urge everyone to make some effort and to expand on any effort that you do make.

I will post later on some recent gains and setbacks by a disparate group of homeowners seeking some limits on light growth by the largest single entity in town. But they made gains, and it required politcal action.



Edited by barbarosa (09/13/13 04:01 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: court order new [Re: Thomas Karpf]
      #6078291 - 09/13/13 07:04 AM

Quote:

Also, point out that as YOU are living there and HIS house is unoccupied most of the time,

IF HE TURNS OFF THE OUTSIDE LIGHTS OFF WHEN HE IS AWAY, you will call the police if you see/hear anything out of the ordinary.

IF HE LEAVES THE LIGHTS ON, you will just chuckle that the annoying neighbor is getting what he deserves when the bad guys break in.





Indeed.. whether it is explicitly or implicitly stated, there is some real truth here. We have small second home in an isolated part of the county. We love the place dearly but the best thing about it, our neighbor... he watches the place like it was his.

For a property owner who is mostly somewhere else.. a solid relationship with your neighbor is the best security there is.

Jon


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Seanem44
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/22/11

Loc: Woodbridge, VA
Re: court order new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6078304 - 09/13/13 07:26 AM

They call me a cleaner. I fix things... or in some cases, break them. I can infiltrate this guy’s property and "fix" the issue before he knows anyone was there. And, I'll make it look like his cat did it. If he doesn't have a cat, I'll make it look like some type of indigenous wildlife did it. The fact of the matter is, by the time I'm through, your skies will be very dark indeed.


But seriously though, the guy is being a little crazy. If there is no recourse for you, throw up some tall trees, poplars, lelylands or something that will grow fast and block out the light. Either that or when he is home aim a floodlight in his living room. Some people can't be reasoned with. Some people just want to watch the world burn.

Edited by Seanem44 (09/13/13 07:29 AM)


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6078351 - 09/13/13 08:48 AM

Poison ivy is a beautiful climbing plant.....

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obin robinson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6078364 - 09/13/13 09:00 AM

If the guy is being a dork about it why not get a pin spot and aim it at his bedroom? Two can play at this game.

http://www.stagelightingstore.com/American-DJ-PL-1000-Pinspot?sc=25&categ...

Nobody lives in the house? Get a gobo that says "nobody lives here" and shine it on the house.

obin

Edited by obin robinson (09/13/13 09:02 AM)


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6078395 - 09/13/13 09:25 AM

Retaliating against a neighbor (or anyone) is never a good idea! I don't think this is what CN wishes to represent.

While we all wish to have dark skies, bullying others to suit our needs will do nothing to further our goal to reduce LP.


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Seanem44
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/22/11

Loc: Woodbridge, VA
Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6078436 - 09/13/13 09:51 AM

Quote:

Retaliating against a neighbor (or anyone) is never a good idea! I don't think this is what CN wishes to represent.

While we all wish to have dark skies, bullying others to suit our needs will do nothing to further our goal to reduce LP.




My response, as I have a feeling that the others are mostly the same, was firnly tongue-in-cheek. I assure you.


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: barbarosa]
      #6078482 - 09/13/13 10:27 AM

Quote:

Neither of the two active astronomy groups in the area pursues a darker sky agenda. Things are as they are, seems to be the motto.




Yes, this is my frustration with the astronomy clubs I am a part of. The discussion is 100% on, "Where can we find a dark sky?" rather than "How can we MAKE a dark sky?" Path of less resistance apparently is just driving farther and farther. The point I try to make is, "What are you going to do when the light catches up to you, and there's no where left to drive?" Sadly, it falls on deaf ears, mostly. Or, "Great idea Dave - YOU go do it."

Quote:

However, light is tough subject, and that won't change if we are timid.




TRUE.

Quote:

Every neighbor won over by whatever means is a victory, but in our modern world not much can be done one person at a time.




On that point I disagree. Having good lighting present as an example matters. "Look at the good lights that the Dodge car dealership has up." Or, "Ever notice how Joe just leaves his light off, despite having that expensive car? There's a reason for that..." It allows us to have a conversation with others. YES, we need political action too - I'm not disagreeing with your later point about that. But one at a time matters as well. We need a both/and strategy.

Quote:

Dark sky is now a politcal issue and will require legislated solutions. It might be sad, but one planning director or city coucilman is worth more than a neigbhor.




Yes, and this can be an even steeper uphill battle than one neighbor at a time (though you're right that getting one good political person on board can reap huge rewards for us).

My story: I got one neighbor to turn off her lights simply by asking. My wife got the library to change their lights when one burned out. I am still waiting - 2 years later - for either the electric company or the village to get something done about one of my other neighbor's lights, and the streetlight which both shine into my daughter's window.

And here's the point on that: We can then lobby both political leaders and neighbors on both the benefits, AND be able to SHOW them what is good about better light. My neighbor laughed/scoffed at me when I mentioned getting the streetlight changed, "HA! They'll never change it!" he declared. Of course, he doesn't know me well enough to realize how persistent I am. So if I can get even that one streetlight changed, I will be able to approach him again, and say, "Okay, the streetlight got changed... now what about YOUR light? Marie turns her lights off, the library changed theirs... see?" (Not that bluntly of course, but something along those lines.) It let's me point to examples for the prickly/stubborn ones.

Quote:

If we look at this as individual cases with individual solutions we are doomed. . I really urge everyone to make some effort and to expand on any effort that you do make.




I've been making astronomy videos for 2.5 years to get more people looking up at the night sky, so that light pollution is on their radar, and they will then DO something about their own lights.

We need to start by making the changes at our own homes. "Hi neighbor - look at the lights on my house. See how there's no glare? All the light goes down, and I can still see everything I need to see at night to walk, look for burglars, etc." An example matters.

And beyond that, we need to not talk about how it affects US, as amateur astronomers. "Oh, you can't see the stars? Go drive out into the country!" No one cares about OTHER people's issues. People care about what matters to THEM. So we need to focus on the reduction in crime stats when cities have turned off lights (Bristol and Essex UK are great examples), or how even the tiniest bits of light at night can disrupt your sleep (Dr. David Blask and Dr. George Brainard's work). If we say, "Do you know you could sleep better if it were darker - no pills, no sleep aids, no expensive curtains that don't block all the light - just DARKNESS?" we might get some people's attention. The U.S. spends 9 BILLION on sleep medications. Of course, everyone likes a secret too, so we can't just scream, "Turn off the lights!!" we need to approach like, "Hey, I discovered the secret to a great night's sleep... call me if you're interested."

BAM! You have their attention - you've got a secret, and have information they want.

I plan to do just that by talking about better sleep at library presentations. Imagine how much more we could accomplish if we approach it that way. Yes, the political side - totally agreed. But we need to get citizens on board too. Politicians listen to squeaky wheels, and if squeaky wheels are only hearing, "We need more light because CRIME!" (even if there is effectively no crime, like where I live, yet we have hundreds of lights - and it's not because of them we have no crime), they will do what will get them VOTES - or more accurately, they will do what will not LOSE them votes.

In other words, educate EVERYONE. And be in it for the long haul, too.

So that's a really long way of both responding to your points, and saying to the OP "Take the long view." I know it's frustrating. I've been dealing with lights spewing onto my yard for years, and haven't made a ton of progress. But I've made some, and will make more. It just takes time. Be patient, work out a positive approach to get the changes made. And in the meantime, put up light shields.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6078661 - 09/13/13 12:34 PM

Yes, hopefully you can work things out with the neighbor...but if not, that's what the laws and court orders are for.....and you should not feel bad about using them...because truthfully, he's the one with a problem, not you...

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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6078912 - 09/13/13 03:16 PM

I think that you and I are in substantial agreement. I like what you are doing. All lawfully methods are open to us, grass roots and up, and we must use them or watch the sky brighten.

The medical secret idea is great.

I was wathing a Universal release the other night. I always liked their evolving hallmark globe. The latest version is the globe moves to the globe at night, lights and more lights and in both hemisphers.

We have a tough row to hoe.


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Seanem44
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/22/11

Loc: Woodbridge, VA
Re: court order new [Re: barbarosa]
      #6078931 - 09/13/13 03:25 PM

I do not consider myself a tree hugger or an environmentalist by any stretch of the imagination. My Silverado 1500 and NRA sticker alone is a dead giveaway.

However, light pollution is a cause I readily take up. While I was on the HOA board for my neighborhood I grilled a car dealership next to our neighborhood that was expanding on the types of lights they planned to install. They're plan seemed adequate and the lights are of the cut off variety.

This is a war that I feel can only be won in the political realm.

Edited by Seanem44 (09/13/13 03:26 PM)


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dce21b
member


Reged: 09/12/13

Re: court order new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6079477 - 09/13/13 09:49 PM

This

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Brett Carlson
sage


Reged: 12/12/11

Loc: Rochester, NY
Re: court order new [Re: dce21b]
      #6079499 - 09/13/13 10:09 PM

I text my neighbors and ask them to "please turn off the sun" and the couple that have strong front lights shut them down.

It's also their cue to come out and view if they want to. We have a pretty close knit neighborhood. I guess I'm lucky in that respect.


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bunyon
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: court order new [Re: Brett Carlson]
      #6079980 - 09/14/13 08:48 AM

Brett has it right; if you know your neighbors well, help them out occasionally, etc., its much easier to ask a favor.

As to political action, sure that's the only way to solve the problem long term. But one a crystal clear Friday night, if much rather be out with my scope than lobbying someone.


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: bunyon]
      #6080122 - 09/14/13 10:28 AM

Quote:

Brett has it right; if you know your neighbors well, help them out occasionally, etc., its much easier to ask a favor.

As to political action, sure that's the only way to solve the problem long term. But one a crystal clear Friday night, if much rather be out with my scope than lobbying someone.




So would I. However, favors are certainly easier to ask if you help out, but - they are no guarantee.

With the one set of neighbors I have which leave a 60W incandescent bulb on all night (and all day - yes, really), I have tried the "you catch more flies with honey" approach. My wife and I have

1) Helped them out with yardwork over the years
2) Patronized their businesses (with quite a bit of money)
3) Repeatedly talked to them about what I do outside with telescopes and invited them to observe (they don't care)

And yet, they pretty much told me to go jump in a lake when I asked them to change their bulb (a bulb I provided TO them, even) simply to one that shines down on their driveway and not up into my daughter's second floor window, or in my higher-than-bulb-level living room windows.

So what exactly DOES one do when "the honey doesn't attract the fly" anymore?

I have asked nicely three times now (and dropped subtle and not so subtle hints many more times), and been rebuffed every single time. I am out of "asking a favor" options with them, except to use the local ordinance of "nuisance lighting" which will still be an uphill battle since there is no enforcement mechanism. So yes, I too don't want to spend time at local political meetings, but if I am going to have an impact on my community in a positive way, and hopefully help others by sharing those experiences, I need to get involved.

Sometimes, even with honey, you aren't going to catch all the flies. So yes, we need to be lobbying and getting involved politically. If not us, who will do it? And what will be left of the nighttime sky for our children and grandchildren? Not every Friday night is clear - hence this site's name.

I see it this way: When loud music is playing, a call to law enforcement is placed, and the music generally gets turned down within an hour (unless a permit was obtained, and even then, it's usually just one night). With lights, it's non-stop, always on. We are forced to run our air conditioning on cool nights rather than leave the windows open because my daughter must leave her light block curtains closed (which STILL don't block all of the light). We ought to be able to sleep in peace, and make the case to our municipalities based on solid evidence that lighting is deleterious to both health and sleep, and more light doesn't reduce crime (all backed up by studies and real-life experiences of other cities).

Slow, not fun, and not my idea of a fun Friday night. But I'm willing to get involved and make a difference. I hope others will "sacrifice" their cloudy nights and do 1/2 as much in their local area. Imagine what we could accomplish if a whole lot of people even half-heartedly worked at this, instead of finding 'better things to do'?


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Mittag56
sage


Reged: 07/08/09

Loc: West Amboy, N.Y.
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6080210 - 09/14/13 11:23 AM

In a way I'm glad to see others have the same problems I do...but that being said there are some people that are impervious to any kind of being approach... Good or bad....my problem seems like a reasonable fella but the wife is so scared of living in the country I'm wondering why they do.....when I put my building and deck in he was there every day..even helping at one point...he was aware what it was etc....he has lived there for years outside lights were in place and I there for chose the placement of my new digs to make everything friendly for all involved....first week was OK...second week found a pole lamp half way across the lawn and right where it burned my eyes out...story goes his weed Wacker was stolen.....he left it next to the main road on the edge of the ditch and went inside for a 2 hour nap...guess he figgered it would still be there next day.....not sure what frappin good this light will do him but I've erected shades of studio lighting cloth....and once in a while. My laser or flashlight will flash cross a window.....and my new app of coyote and wounded rabbit calls sounds real nice on my speaker system.....I've asked...talked...explained...to no avail some people just won't think or compromise..... So I do my thing best I can....and he thinks that 150 watt bare bulb lamp post will protect his stuff...that's his thing....just say in...got to get it out of my system somehow... Thanks for letting me do that.

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: Mittag56]
      #6080249 - 09/14/13 11:40 AM

Quote:

and once in a while. My laser or flashlight will flash cross a window.




Wow!! I definitely think that using a laser in this manner is very innapropriate & irresponsible & possibly dangerous to the people in the house, and leads to why many hate lasers!


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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6080292 - 09/14/13 12:20 PM

Quote:




So what exactly DOES one do when "the honey doesn't attract the fly" anymore?

I see it this way: When loud music is playing, a call to law enforcement is placed, and the music generally gets turned down within an hour (unless a permit was obtained, and even then, it's usually just one night). With lights, it's non-stop, always on. We are forced to run our air conditioning on cool nights rather than leave the windows open because my daughter must leave her light block curtains closed (which STILL don't block all of the light). We ought to be able to sleep in peace, and make the case to our municipalities based on solid evidence that lighting is deleterious to both health and sleep, and more light doesn't reduce crime (all backed up by studies and real-life experiences of other cities).






Please understand that my suggestion/s are simply my passive-aggressive nature at work:

Forget the honey and turn the Quid Pro Quo you've been attempting around.
Since you have to use A/C anyways, maybe you can install a "cheap" heat exchanger system that has an obnoxiously loud outside unit. Mount the unit close to the property line between you and the neighbor and direct the noise generated by it in their direction. If the outside unit isn't loud enough to get the point across, you can always "modify" it till it does. No loud music or law enforcement involved.
Better and cheaper yet, Go on Craigslist and obtain an old outside unit that time has modified for you already, do the same as above, and just run the fan and compressor 24/7/365. When they complain about the noise, tell them that you were forced to install the unit due to the steps you had to take to keep the light from intruding into your home and that you also have every right to your own comfort.


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6080377 - 09/14/13 01:11 PM

Quote:

Since you have to use A/C anyways, maybe you can install a "cheap" heat exchanger system that has an obnoxiously loud outside unit. Mount the unit close to the property line between you and the neighbor and direct the noise generated by it in their direction.




That might be useful if:

1) Their A/C unit wasn't already louder than ours
2) Their A/C unit wasn't already closer to their bedroom window than any unit I could install on my property, which would be blocked by their garage and/or vehicles in their driveway
3) It weren't closer to my daughter's window than theirs



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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6080446 - 09/14/13 01:48 PM

Quote:



That might be useful if:

1) Their A/C unit wasn't already louder than ours
2) Their A/C unit wasn't already closer to their bedroom window than any unit I could install on my property, which would be blocked by their garage and/or vehicles in their driveway
3) It weren't closer to my daughter's window than theirs






Dang! I tried.


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richard7Moderator
Not Quite
*****

Reged: 11/02/07

Loc: Sacramento
Re: court order new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6080760 - 09/14/13 05:02 PM

Have you ever invited the family over for a BBQ and some evening stargazing? This talk about revenge can get out of hand.
There is one rule that always holds true. Revenge brings on retaliation which brings on hatred which brings on a war which brings on a bad neighborhood and ulcers and, and.
Bottom line, IT DOESN'T WORK.


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: richard7]
      #6080812 - 09/14/13 05:39 PM

Richard, not sure if you were addressing me or not, but if so, yes, I have tried that approach, several times, to no avail. And no worries, I am not considering going the revenge/retaliation route - as satisfying as that can feel when the thought crosses my mind, I know that long-term it is not a viable option. I just want to go the route of results, which may take time, and which may not make them as happy as they'd like to be (spewing light every which way 24/7/365), but this will be a long process of education for a lot of people around town, not just them.

I plan to make the most of it, not myopically focus only on getting one single lamppost changed.


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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: richard7]
      #6080884 - 09/14/13 06:36 PM

Well Richard, Dave has communicated in this thread, and in another associated thread, that his neighbor has made it abundantly clear that they have absolutely no interest whatsoever in cooperating with regard to the issue and is only willing to be a good neighbor on his terms only. If you scroll back up the page you'll see that Dave has gone out of his way to do his part of being more than just a good neighbor. Apparently the neighbor just doesn't care about anyone else but themselves.

It could be matter of semantics when it comes to our differing views, but If you go by the current definition, you'll clearly see that I was not suggesting revenge in any way, shape, or form. I was simply suggesting to Dave a subtle manner in which he might let his neighbor know that if they can be nuisance, Dave could do likewise. Just a way for Dave to create a bargaining position to use. Nothing more. Maybe the neighbor would get the message, but most likely he wouldn't.
I'm sorry if you felt that I was trying to make a bad situation worse, but for Dave to simply take what's being dished out to him is obviously going to get him no where. Not knowing what his neighbor may do next to exacerbate the situation, Dave needs to put his foot down and let the them know that enough is enough.

Your call sign reminds me that in the HAM world(BTW, KE6LDN), that when RF is being transmitted by one individual and that RF gets into the neighbors equipment and causes a ruckus, by law, it's the neighbor's problem. However, it's extremely poor when the individual broadcasting the RF does not to attempt to mitigate the situation. Being that RF and light are the same thing, I think you can see the similarity here. However, in most states there are laws on the books that address the issue of light trespass. Using the law should be a last resort and that's what Dave has been trying to avoid.

Edited by Jeff Phinney (09/14/13 07:49 PM)


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darknesss
sage


Reged: 09/05/13

Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6080981 - 09/14/13 07:32 PM

Get some young pigeons and train them to sit on the lamps by putting food on the lamps. Then figure out a way to make them wipe their behinds by using the light bulbs.



On the other hand, it's a bad idea. Better replace pigeons with woodpeckers.

Edited by darknesss (09/14/13 07:34 PM)


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Daniel Guzas
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 11/20/10

Loc: Bethlehem NH/ Boston MA
Re: court order new [Re: darknesss]
      #6081134 - 09/14/13 09:36 PM

It's such a shame that others can be so brash. I mean " you will have to get a court order". ?? Come ON??! What is he,...12 years old or something...? Grow up and be a man and work with your fellow neighbor for goodness sake! 

What happened to being respectful and treat others the way you want to be treated? If I were approached by a neighbor that something of mine was bothering them, I would at least attempt to make adjustments to address the situation. Unfortunately there are many out there who really don't care and this is why there is so much fear and loathing in our world today. And people like that will live miserable lives under the shroud of paranoia and loneliness.  Even if they don't admit it, it will be there, never able to let the finer gentler things in life penetrate their facade and being. It really is a shame. Having said that not everyone has the capacity to be nice or play nice so it is up to us who have to be the grown ups and work out a solution, even if it means getting a court order. It is insane, but if that is his response then what the heck! What other choice is he leaving you?? You are pushed into a corner.... Sigh....

If people just stepped back and off their high horse and thought for a minute before they acted, the world would be a much better place. The person that you describe really burns me up!! There is no need to act that way no matter what the circumstance.

Now I am fired up!!!    I wish you luck!


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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6081215 - 09/14/13 10:30 PM

Ok Dave, I'm going to give it one more try:

Going back to your original idea of using the silver crown bulbs, how about doing this? Since your neighbor seems to want to use CFLs maybe you can try modifying some CFLs( http://www.genesislamp.com/cacofllibutb.html ) using white spray paint applied on the side of the bulb that faces towards your house.

That way the light goes where they want it, all over their yard, house. and driveway and not in your direction. They'll get even more of what they want or you might even get away with using a lower wattage bulb. Don't really see how they could argue with that strategy. Unless of course they feel lighting up the entire neighborhood makes them feel safer.


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6081259 - 09/14/13 11:03 PM

Quote:

Ok Dave, I'm going to give it one more try:

Going back to your original idea of using the silver crown bulbs, how about doing this? Since your neighbor seems to want to use CFLs maybe you can try modifying some CFLs( http://www.genesislamp.com/cacofllibutb.html ) using white spray paint applied on the side of the bulb that faces towards your house.




Believe me, I gave this a lot of thought already. In fact, I already bought some "Silver Crown CFL's" FROM Genesis Lamp.

I really think it has less to do with the light, and more to so with what "they" want. Seriously. They are the type of people who don't want to be "told" what to do. Of course, I'm not telling them - I'm just asking them. I've even said - explicitly - "I am not asking you to turn your light off; just keep your light on YOUR property so it lights up your driveway and vehicles." But they don't see it that way; they want to be able to put whatever light bulb up they want, in whatever fixture, and run it all day, and all night, and shine wherever it goes.

I asked why. You know what I was told? "We like our light. If you don't like it, buy curtains."

Seriously.

They said the silver crown bulbs are 'too dim,' despite the fact that I KNOW the silver crown put out as many lumens as their old CFL did. In other words, if they don't get glare in their face, then it's not bright enough. I truly believe that's the key: They WANT the light shining at them, so they FEEL like it's bright - where it goes from there, they really, truly don't care.

It's frustrating for me. But I will work to make headway, so I can share with others if I find a route to success. We need to figure these things out, so we can all make some individual headway in these circumstances.

Quote:

Unless of course they feel lighting up the entire neighborhood makes them feel safer.




They really are of the, "More light must be better" belief, based on previous conversations, regardless of the fact that 1) we have negligible crime / vandalism here and 2) less light has shown in many other cities to be more effective at reducing crime anyway.

They really don't care what I think or feel, or if their light intrudes on my property.

It's an uphill battle for me, but I won't give up. Funny thing is, they were so adamant about their last bulb and swapped out the silver crown I gave them in less than 48 hours, but their current CFL has been burned out for 5 days now (I was just outside looking at the Moon) and they still haven't noticed it's out.

Crazy, right?

I don't plan on telling them anytime soon.


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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6081312 - 09/14/13 11:56 PM

It seems I'm at a disadvantage in this discussion by not understanding the physical layout of where this light is positioned in the yard relative to everything else.
I was under the impression that it was mounted vertically on a lamppost somewhere out in your neighbors yard. If thats the situation, the silver top is going to force all of the upward radiated light downwards. You no doubt already know that and I can understand why they feel that the light is dimmer.
To clarify, what I'm suggesting is that you make a half silver top bulb that gives them what they want. It blocks off the light that would be headed your way and instead is sent back towards them.

If they haven't noticed that the light has been out for the last 5 days, just do it. They no doubt won't notice that anything has changed.

Edited by Jeff Phinney (09/15/13 12:02 AM)


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6081321 - 09/15/13 12:01 AM

I truly believe they do not want ANY light blocked on the bulb whatsoever. Their light that shines on my property is MY problem, in their eyes. So there is no solution to be had from any suggestion originating with me (that was made pretty darn clear - not explicitly, but implicitly).

Therefore, I am working on other routes for a successful outcome.


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okiestarman56
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/10/08

Loc: 36.40'10.30"N 96.20'04.90" W
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6081365 - 09/15/13 12:48 AM

went back the next day as he was cutting down some trees to offer some help and apologize for any misunderstanding we had on our first meeting--BIG MISTAKE. Did not want my help and did I have a court order yet. His brother owns the house and he just takes care of the property for him, no one lives in the home. Home has been broke into before, lights (3) are on 24-7 North porch light, North west corner 2 floods, lights up 3 yards. No city ordinance on lights. After a night at the Tallgrass prairie, it is more work to load and drive but after Okie-Tex I will be going to the city council to start talks with them about saving our skies, oh yea police already have had calls about a guy with a rocket launcher, got to love this town.

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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6081417 - 09/15/13 01:40 AM

Quote:

I truly believe they do not want ANY light blocked on the bulb whatsoever. Their light that shines on my property is MY problem, in their eyes. So there is no solution to be had from any suggestion originating with me (that was made pretty darn clear - not explicitly, but implicitly).





Hate to say it, but I'd say your dealing with a bully and in situations like that, being nice only gets you so far,... if anywhere at all.
I'm no lawyer, so don't take my word, but It may be time for you to take the issue before a judge or arbitrator,... or at least threaten as if you are. Warn your neighbors what it is that you're planning to do about the situation. Make sure that they know that you're serious and that you're going to WASTE THEIR TIME having been forced to deal with the issue in this manner. At this point odds are they will be willing to negotiate in coming to an amicable solution. If they want to be hard nosed about it, you need to be prepared to be just as hard nosed.

You need to make it THEIR problem!

And whatever you do, DO NOT BACK DOWN!

You need to document everything that you have done to mitigate the situation and be prepared to present it,... including your dealings with the power company regarding the street light. Regardless of any light trespass laws that may or may not exist in your area, by DIRECTLY, and what now appears to be BLATANTLY AND INTENSIONALLY illuminating your property, you're neighbors are deliberately violating your right to the peaceful use your property and have in fact created a nuisance with the light shining DIRECTLY into your yard and into your daughters window. Curtains and blinds are NOT a solution, especially during hot weather when you have to pick up the tab for running the A/C. Your requests are no where near unreasonable.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6081711 - 09/15/13 09:12 AM

Quote:

I was very diplomatic and nice when I talked with him about adding some shields to the two lights, offered to buy them and install them, he said not to worry that he would take care of them and thanked him and went back to work in my yard. 15 minutes late he came over with an offensive attitude and told me the only way he would shield them is if I got a court order. What do I do know get a court order?




What I don't understand is the very quick change in attitude going from nice to belligerent in a matter of minutes. Perhaps he called his brother (the owner), and the brother said no.


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Ian Robinson
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/29/09

Loc: 33S , 151E
Re: court order new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6081739 - 09/15/13 09:30 AM

He sounds like an ignorant jerk to me , IMO if he wants to go all legalistic, call his bluff.

Get the court order (if it's not going to be expensive to get it and send him the bill), else find a way to stop his lights without actually going onto his land.

Or move.


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Ian Robinson
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/29/09

Loc: 33S , 151E
Re: court order new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6081775 - 09/15/13 10:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I truly believe they do not want ANY light blocked on the bulb whatsoever. Their light that shines on my property is MY problem, in their eyes. So there is no solution to be had from any suggestion originating with me (that was made pretty darn clear - not explicitly, but implicitly).





Hate to say it, but I'd say your dealing with a bully and in situations like that, being nice only gets you so far,... if anywhere at all.
I'm no lawyer, so don't take my word, but It may be time for you to take the issue before a judge or arbitrator,... or at least threaten as if you are. Warn your neighbors what it is that you're planning to do about the situation. Make sure that they know that you're serious and that you're going to WASTE THEIR TIME having been forced to deal with the issue in this manner. At this point odds are they will be willing to negotiate in coming to an amicable solution. If they want to be hard nosed about it, you need to be prepared to be just as hard nosed.

You need to make it THEIR problem!

And whatever you do, DO NOT BACK DOWN!

You need to document everything that you have done to mitigate the situation and be prepared to present it,... including your dealings with the power company regarding the street light. Regardless of any light trespass laws that may or may not exist in your area, by DIRECTLY, and what now appears to be BLATANTLY AND INTENSIONALLY illuminating your property, you're neighbors are deliberately violating your right to the peaceful use your property and have in fact created a nuisance with the light shining DIRECTLY into your yard and into your daughters window. Curtains and blinds are NOT a solution, especially during hot weather when you have to pick up the tab for running the A/C. Your requests are no where near unreasonable.




The light is taking away YOUR PRIVACY , don't back down.


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: court order new [Re: Ian Robinson]
      #6081792 - 09/15/13 10:16 AM

No worries, I won't be backing down, but I do live right next door to them, so I can't go all nuclear on them either. I do have to live next to them as long as both of us own our homes. A level of diplomatic forcefulness is required here.

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aatt
sage


Reged: 07/26/12

Loc: CT
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6081834 - 09/15/13 10:47 AM

Wow-some people are just too much.Sorry to hear that you live next to an intractable jerk. It amazes me that you can present a reasonable request hinging on a genuine quality of life issue and be completely and rudely disregarded. Can't imagine what it would be like to live inn the same house with this guy...My neighbor has a light that shines directly into my backyard, but 99 nights out of 100 he leaves it off. I have yet to talk to him about it, but he is a reasonable guy and courteous.When the time comes for that conversation, he will no doubt adjust it.Stay focused and don't back down-I think the idea of wasting his time will work.

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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: aatt]
      #6081856 - 09/15/13 11:04 AM

Honest, I thought it was a lightbulb factory....When mine burned out, I used their exchange program.....

...need any burned out bulbs?

Edited by csrlice12 (09/15/13 11:06 AM)


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darknesss
sage


Reged: 09/05/13

Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6082099 - 09/15/13 01:53 PM

Quote:

oh yea police already have had calls about a guy with a rocket launcher, got to love this town.




Someone was carrying a telescope on the shoulder in your town?


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: darknesss]
      #6082278 - 09/15/13 03:27 PM

Nope, a rocket launcher...waiting for a used rocket to show up on Astromart.....

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christheman200
sage


Reged: 06/12/13

Loc: Toronto, Canada
Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6082367 - 09/15/13 04:28 PM

I think you meant a grenade launcher... clearly it was loaded with ES 30mm 100*s!
I'm actually pretty lucky... none of my neighbours have any light shining into my backyard, other than one light that I haven't seen on in a while, and it's maybe 3 or 4 houses down. Most of my neighbours are nice people as well.


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Jeff Phinney
super member


Reged: 02/20/13

Loc: CA
Re: court order new [Re: darknesss]
      #6082495 - 09/15/13 05:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

oh yea police already have had calls about a guy with a rocket launcher, got to love this town.




Someone was carrying a telescope on the shoulder in your town?




Yup, In Oklahoma, it's imperative that the cops and the rest of the citizenry keep a sharp out for Terrorist Astronomers. First those radicals will want all the lights out and then,...
.... they'll expose the children to actual science.

Edited by Jeff Phinney (09/15/13 06:14 PM)


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richard7Moderator
Not Quite
*****

Reged: 11/02/07

Loc: Sacramento
Re: court order new [Re: magic612]
      #6082624 - 09/15/13 07:01 PM

Quote:

Richard, not sure if you were addressing me or not, but if so, yes, I have tried that approach, several times, to no avail. And no worries, I am not considering going the revenge/retaliation route - as satisfying as that can feel when the thought crosses my mind, I know that long-term it is not a viable option. I just want to go the route of results, which may take time, and which may not make them as happy as they'd like to be (spewing light every which way 24/7/365), but this will be a long process of education for a lot of people around town, not just them.

I plan to make the most of it, not myopically focus only on getting one single lamppost changed.




I apologize if any body took this personally. I wasn't trying to single out any one individual but rather the tone of the replies that I read was, I thought, leaning toward a confrontational stance. That kind of bothered me.
Again, my apologies.
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.


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Phil Cowell
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/24/07

Loc: Southern Tier NY
Re: court order new [Re: Daniel Guzas]
      #6082726 - 09/15/13 08:05 PM

In court you might want to make the point it's your daughters bedroom they are illuminating. Might help with the order.

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amicus sidera
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6082835 - 09/15/13 09:19 PM

Welcome to small-town America, Okiestarman56, where the folks can be ever so reasonable and accommodating to those with interests differing from their own.

I don't know your personal situation and so have no advice to offer, but were I in a similar position I would move well outside of town, if at all possible. Best to be as far from the insular, generally ill-educated folks who make up a substantial portion of the population as one can get. Anyone differing from their societal norms will be subject to endless gossip and finger-pointing at best, and open hostility at worst; owning an astronomical telescope and objecting to light trespass is certainly more than sufficient to qualify one as "different" by their standards. Been there, done that, got the pictures back...

That said, what has appalled me in reading this thread is not so much the actions of the neighbor(s) in question, or the obviously facetious remarks regarding tit-for-tat behavior, but the Pollyanna, lay-down-and-be-walked-on attitude expressed in a few posts. Appeasing bullies is a proper course of action only if one desperately desires to be further bullied... or at least it is in the real world.

Fred


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csrlice12
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Re: court order new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #6083750 - 09/16/13 11:38 AM

Sometimes bullies only understand one thing........amazing how doscile they become afterwards.....call his bluff and get the court order......

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obin robinson
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Re: court order new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #6083867 - 09/16/13 12:35 PM

Quote:

In court you might want to make the point it's your daughters bedroom they are illuminating. Might help with the order.




Ditto. All the judge needs to hear is "this guy has a bright light shining into my daughter's bedroom window at night" and that's all the judge needs to hear. Something tells me that light won't be on after that.

obin


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Jeff Phinney
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Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6086224 - 09/17/13 03:15 PM

Quote:

went back the next day as he was cutting down some trees to offer some help and apologize for any misunderstanding we had on our first meeting--BIG MISTAKE. Did not want my help and did I have a court order yet. His brother owns the house and he just takes care of the property for him, no one lives in the home. Home has been broke into before, lights (3) are on 24-7 North porch light, North west corner 2 floods, lights up 3 yards. No city ordinance on lights. After a night at the Tallgrass prairie, it is more work to load and drive but after Okie-Tex I will be going to the city council to start talks with them about saving our skies, oh yea police already have had calls about a guy with a rocket launcher, got to love this town.




Okie,
Here's a thought:
As everyone knows, it's not uncommon for a mundane civil situation to turn into a raging disaster because of simple miscommunication. The real problem could very well be the brother's interpretation of the issue and what appears to be a lack of tactful communication on his part. Assuming that you are dealing with the property owner/s brother (or someone who is conveniently claiming not to be the property owner/s), and if the brother is being used as the communication conduit between you and the property owner/s, maybe it would be to your benefit to seek out the actual owner/s and contact them directly to plead your case, explain your situation, and issues . Remove the middle man, so to speak.
Who the current property owners are should be a matter of public record(County recorder?). Before seeking a court order, I'd start there. A very diplomatically worded and thought out letter can go a great deal further in getting what you need when dealing straight with the pertinent party/s.


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csrlice12
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Re: court order new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6086277 - 09/17/13 03:52 PM

or write the local gov't a letter about that empty house next to you with it's lights on all the time.....seems he's really going out of his way to get broken into again anyways......Nothing says "Nobody Home" like lights on 24hrs a day.....besides, it's not just his house they'd be scoping out (pun not intended)....they know he's not home, and see that nice shiney telescope you have setting in your back yard...or your daughter......He's actually putting you and your neighbors in danger..........and not just from light pollution.

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Tom and Beth
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Reged: 01/08/07

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Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6086322 - 09/17/13 04:23 PM

To the original poster:

The suggestion above to contact the OWNER of the home and try to smooth over ruffled feathers is a good suggestion. Failing that, might I suggest you just build a non assuming roll off roof Observatory? One that blocks his lights and just let you move on with your love of the sky? I would suggest you document your current situation with some night pictures, should they then turn vindictive and INTENTIONALLY shine a bright light on your new building (and which then is much easier to have the local magistrates deal with trespass)

Life is short. I truly hope you can work out a good neighbor solution. But the stress, cost and aggravation of "fighting" will hurt YOU more than the dent to your wallet.


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calypsob
professor emeritus
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Reged: 04/20/13

Re: court order new [Re: Tom and Beth]
      #6086775 - 09/17/13 08:51 PM

Suggestions

1. Call the power company and get a quote for a price on adding on off timers to the light posts. Print up the bill, write up a contract, go to the atm and take out cash in $100 increments and clip this to the top of the contract, throw in an extra $100. Cash is king.

2. If you are an astrophotographer, build a printed portfolio in a giant portfolio folder. Take your portfolio to your neighbor and tell him that you are trying to do work for your local university and that on the precious days that the sky is clear you need to do your work in the dark.

3. This is what I actually did to get a farmer to use his property for astrophotography whenever I want. I wrote up a contract saying that I would pick up roadside trash on the second Saturday of every month if I could use his property at night. I knocked on his door one afternoon and he was so happy because he is getting old and the local rednecks out in the sticks throw beer bottles and cans out on the side of his property all the time. It takes me about an hour to complete the job, he has 30 acres of property. Of course you could always substitute trash with mowing the lawn, raking leaves, or whatever else.

My last idea would be to either build a wall from 4x4's and roofing aluminum to block the light, or plant a row of Leland cypress trees as a barrier.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: calypsob]
      #6087534 - 09/18/13 09:08 AM

Quote:

1. Call the power company and get a quote for a price on adding on off timers to the light posts.




Depending on the power company, this may not be allowed. Here, no on/off switches or timers are allowed on any of the power company lights. Not even if it's on private property, and owner is paying monthly for the service. How do I know? I had a yard light; and I asked about this & was told absolutely nothing can be done with the light. So, the power company was told to come up & get their light.


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bunyon
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Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6087599 - 09/18/13 09:44 AM

I had the same experience as Carol. I was told that the light is city property and their policy is it is on as long as it is dark.

I was disappointed that I called in the end because it created a record with my name in which I wanted the light out. So if anything should "happen" to said light, they would know who to call.

I've spent a lot of time, with some success in turning it off by shining a light on it. I got lucky in that the original mercury lamp quit after I turned it off and on many times in rapid succession (I know from work that this will happen). They replaced it 4 years later with a sodium lamp that is much more robust. I have a laser that turns it off but the laser dims after about ten minutes.

Still working.

Lots of good suggestions in this thread but, in the end, it comes down to the neighbor. A reasonable neighbor would work with you. An unreasonable neighbor requires outside forces (such as the subject line court order) and that may not always be possible.

I think it illustrates that if you're ever going to move somewhere for a dark sky, you should not move to a place that has close neighbors. You need a lot of land and, preferably, some natural barrier such as hills or trees.

Good luck to the OP and everyone who is fighting this fight.


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csrlice12
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Re: court order new [Re: bunyon]
      #6087632 - 09/18/13 10:01 AM

"I think it illustrates that if you're ever going to move somewhere for a dark sky, you should not move to a place that has close neighbors."

Gawd I miss my 5 acres outside of Edgewood, NM........now I'm in White Zone Denver with skyscrapers across the street....and the City JUST gave me four, counte'm FOUR new streetlights (there used to be only two). One on each corner (I'm on a corner lot). Nice, tall, bright orangish-white light.....nothing can be done. I can read a book in my back yard now without any other light......


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orion61

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Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6087832 - 09/18/13 11:43 AM

I think the movement sensors is the best option, and I cannot see a reason for him declining the offer especially if you offer to pay for them.
Light pollution is the same as tree branches hanging over property, You have the right to trim it, I just had a fight
with my neighbor over it this winter when a huge branch off his huge old tree fell on my camper parked in my back yard.
Video record yourself offering to put up the motion detectors or shields. If he refuses take him to small claims court for the cost of building a 10' tall fence between the properties! You have the right to enjoy your yard period! and his light IS polluting your property.
You should be able to view your yard day or night and open the windows for fresh air without having flocking drapes pulled.
If there would be someone in his yard and triggers the lights, it would scare would be invaders more than the constant "ON" welcome to my home lights.
If you provide a reasonable case the Judge has no other option than ruling in your favor! Just be prepaired for the arguement.
It would be the same for LOUD Music, Smoke from an open Fire Pit, or His pets on your property.
You will prevail.
Like I said I had to go this rout with my Neighbor. I WON!
Good Luck.


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Seanem44
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Re: court order new [Re: orion61]
      #6087969 - 09/18/13 12:48 PM

I'm assuming you do not live in a neighborhood with an HOA. that is unfortunate.

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Kraus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6088104 - 09/18/13 01:58 PM


Herr Okie,

You moved into a house next to another house. Houses come with lights. To get the skies you want, you'll have to move 'not next' to a house. I take it you're in the city, lights everywhere?


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obin robinson
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: court order new [Re: orion61]
      #6088150 - 09/18/13 02:18 PM

Quote:

If he refuses take him to small claims court for the cost of building a 10' tall fence between the properties! You have the right to enjoy your yard period! and his light IS polluting your property.




You bring up a good point. Couldn't you bring up the ordinance for lighting and then bring him to court to pay for your light blocking supplies if he doesn't obey the ordinance?

obin


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okiestarman56
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 04/10/08

Loc: 36.40'10.30"N 96.20'04.90" W
Re: court order new [Re: Kraus]
      #6088447 - 09/18/13 05:09 PM

do not consider next door, his lights are 133' 9" and with an alley between and small tree which is loosing leaves like crazy now. As a disabled vet on fixed income resources are limited. Use Dark sky Finder and find Pawhuska,OK and see what is just North of me, packing up every time I want to observe at 61 would sour me real quick to find a new hobby like knitting. This was to be our last move.

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Kraus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: court order new [Re: okiestarman56]
      #6089545 - 09/19/13 08:53 AM


Ah ha! I suggest then build a light blocker. Another thread elsewhere shows some neat ideas.

I have a light shroud attached to Big Bertha. When I get under it, my eyes thank me. Even a full moon doesn't bother me. Last Saturday I observed the Veil with an 80% gibbous moon.


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csrlice12
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Re: court order new [Re: Kraus]
      #6089644 - 09/19/13 10:06 AM

Ah, the good old days, when we were children and were easily entertained with a "Y" shaped stick and some rubber bands.....even our toys were cheap....but fun.....

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schinia
member


Reged: 05/17/13

Loc: cape carteret,NC
Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6092354 - 09/20/13 07:23 PM

i knew a few so called Dr Jeckle Mr Hyde types, changing in a matter of moments. STAY AWAY FROM THAT TYPE ! as my late father used to say "*BLEEP* H*^ls are dangerous" also being nice, and always bending over backwards doesn't always work. it certainly works when your neighbor want's something, but doesn't work the moment you do ! SOOO with that said i can read people rather quick, and if i feel talking isn't going to get me any where i will become very resourceful.

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csrlice12
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Re: court order new [Re: schinia]
      #6096529 - 09/23/13 10:14 AM

Thousands of years of human study into the sociological aspects of man has come up with the following summarized theorum:

"Don't get mad, get even."

Peace is our ultimate goal, War is the tool we have chosen to get there.......go figure....


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Gil V
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/09/12

Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6096577 - 09/23/13 10:41 AM

How old is your daughter?

Here is what to do.

Have her go over one afternoon with tears in her eyes. Have her talk to the woman of the house. In tears, let her explain to the woman how she couldn't complete her astronomy project for school because the neighbor's lights prevented her from using the scope with her dad.

Problem solved.

Oh, you might have to pay your daughter to do this, but it will be the best $100 you ever spent.


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csrlice12
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Re: court order new [Re: Gil V]
      #6096609 - 09/23/13 10:56 AM

...except nobody lives there, the brother is just watching the house.......

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Gil V
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/09/12

Re: court order *DELETED* new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6096685 - 09/23/13 11:56 AM

Post deleted by Gil V

Edited by Gil V (09/23/13 10:58 PM)


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obin robinson
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: court order *DELETED* new [Re: Gil V]
      #6097137 - 09/23/13 04:52 PM

Post deleted by obin robinson

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Kfrank
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/20/08

Loc: Northern Colorado
Re: court order new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6097192 - 09/23/13 05:31 PM

Guys, you'll get this thread locked or removedmif that keeps up, I'm afraid.

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Gil V
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/09/12

Re: court order *DELETED* new [Re: Kfrank]
      #6097618 - 09/23/13 11:01 PM

Post deleted by Gil V

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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: Gil V]
      #6097993 - 09/24/13 08:49 AM

Bottom line is you have two choices:

1. Accept the situation as is....
2. Do something about it....what to do will be determined by the stregnth of the neighbors actions (or lack thereof).

The thing to remember is that HE is the one with a problem, not YOU.....put the problem where it lies.....


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Gil V
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/09/12

Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6098270 - 09/24/13 11:21 AM

Coincidentally, I was set up in the front yard last night. I wanted to get 90 minutes of viewing in before the moonlight started to wash out the sky. Neighbor's front house lights come on - obliterates any viewing from the front.

I go inside for a few minutes, then go back out and sit in a lawn chair. Neighbor pulls in his driveway. When he gets out of the car, I politely ask if he would shut off the outside lights after he is done outside. He says, "Absolutely". I say, "Thank you very much".

I love my neighbors. And people accuse us Northeasters of being cold!

Edited by Gil V (09/24/13 11:22 AM)


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seawolfe
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/26/13

Loc: N 47.11.23 W 122.20.18
Re: court order new [Re: Gil V]
      #6099789 - 09/25/13 05:38 AM

Quote:

Coincidentally, I was set up in the front yard last night. I wanted to get 90 minutes of viewing in before the moonlight started to wash out the sky. Neighbor's front house lights come on - obliterates any viewing from the front.

I go inside for a few minutes, then go back out and sit in a lawn chair. Neighbor pulls in his driveway. When he gets out of the car, I politely ask if he would shut off the outside lights after he is done outside. He says, "Absolutely". I say, "Thank you very much".

I love my neighbors. And people accuse us Northeasters of being cold!




I've done the same with my neighbors' back porch lights. I even invited them to come take a look at what I'm seeing. Sometimes, it has been the Moon or Saturn. Great to see them ooh and awe and heartily agree to turn off their lights the next time (if they remember too) and I make sure to thank them as well.


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Kraus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: court order new [Re: Gil V]
      #6100692 - 09/25/13 03:38 PM

Quote:

How old is your daughter?

Here is what to do.

Have her go over one afternoon with tears in her eyes. Have her talk to the woman of the house. In tears, let her explain to the woman how she couldn't complete her astronomy project for school because the neighbor's lights prevented her from using the scope with her dad.

Problem solved.

Oh, you might have to pay your daughter to do this, but it will be the best $100 you ever spent.




That's sneaky and conniving. I love it.


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csrlice12
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Loc: Denver, CO
Re: court order new [Re: Kraus]
      #6100705 - 09/25/13 03:44 PM

Except the house next door is empty, remember what the OP said? The brother's only watching it.......and only drops by occasionally. The lights are on 24/7/365.

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: Kraus]
      #6100798 - 09/25/13 04:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

How old is your daughter?

Here is what to do.

Have her go over one afternoon with tears in her eyes. Have her talk to the woman of the house. In tears, let her explain to the woman how she couldn't complete her astronomy project for school because the neighbor's lights prevented her from using the scope with her dad.

Problem solved.

Oh, you might have to pay your daughter to do this, but it will be the best $100 you ever spent.




That's sneaky and conniving. I love it.




Encouraging a child to lie???


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Kfrank
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/20/08

Loc: Northern Colorado
Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6101043 - 09/25/13 06:34 PM

Bravo, Carol!!!!

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BluesNebula
journeyman


Reged: 09/16/13

Loc: Western Nevada
Re: court order new [Re: Kfrank]
      #6101239 - 09/25/13 08:34 PM

Random lighting at night inside the house would be just as effective, cheaper and should make everyone happy. The objective of the brother watching the house is crime prevention apparently. Perhaps he would respond to an approach that made it seem the house was occupied w/o the need for obnoxious outside lighting.

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bogg
sage


Reged: 11/17/09

Loc: Bruce County Ontario
Re: court order new [Re: BluesNebula]
      #6102721 - 09/26/13 05:26 PM

Just a thought. He has a very bright light on all of the time. Could anyone here find any articles for the opt that mentions how criminals can case a neighborhood looking for bright outdoor lights on during daylight, or lights bright enough to hide them. If its for security he may take note.

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schinia
member


Reged: 05/17/13

Loc: cape carteret,NC
Re: court order new [Re: bogg]
      #6114832 - 10/03/13 10:08 AM

my next door neighbors house has been on the market for three years. (we live in a gated subdivision) there is a street lamp in front of the neighbors house. very bright, and annoying. but i felt i couldn't do anything about it, but thought about it. it finally sold, and a day or two later the light went out ! it's been a while, but hopefully it won't go back on.

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Littlegreenman
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Reged: 05/09/05

Loc: Southern California
Re: court order new [Re: schinia]
      #6115298 - 10/03/13 02:19 PM

Quote:

my next door neighbors house has been on the market for three years. (we live in a gated subdivision) there is a street lamp in front of the neighbors house. very bright, and annoying. but i felt i couldn't do anything about it, but thought about it. it finally sold, and a day or two later the light went out ! it's been a while, but hopefully it won't go back on.




Quite a few of us amateur astronomers have requested the local governmental agency that deals with street lights to improve the situation for them. One common fix is a partial shield/shade blocking the light and/or glare in your direction. It's free to ask, and may be successful. A burnt out light will most certainly be fixed.

LGM


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Widespread
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/11/11

Loc: Bowling Green, Kentucky
Re: court order new [Re: schinia]
      #6115368 - 10/03/13 02:55 PM

Maybe someone else mentioned this, but I didn't see it.
I think the first thing to do, since talking with the neighbor has failed, is to talk to a lawyer.

He or she can tell you the best approach. A likely scenario is that the lawyer would write a letter to the property owner explaining the problem, offering to pay for the remediation of the problem by installing motion sensor lighting, and stating that if the problem is not resolved, further legal action will be taken.

A complaint from a neighbor is easily ignored, because it has no leverage. A formal letter from a law office, on the other hand, implies a costly waste of time and money.

Now the owner has a choice. He can spend money on a lawyer himself, or he can agree to a free security upgrade to his home (motion sensor lighting).

I'm no lawyer, but as a translator I see this kind of carrot/stick approach used a lot. It combines negative reinforcement (avoiding a lawsuit) with positive reinforcement (free motion sensors).

Best,
David


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Kfrank
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/20/08

Loc: Northern Colorado
Re: court order new [Re: Widespread]
      #6115521 - 10/03/13 04:03 PM

Quote:

Maybe someone else mentioned this, but I didn't see it.
I think the first thing to do, since talking with the neighbor has failed, is to talk to a lawyer.

He or she can tell you the best approach. A likely scenario is that the lawyer would write a letter to the property owner explaining the problem, offering to pay for the remediation of the problem by installing motion sensor lighting, and stating that if the problem is not resolved, further legal action will be taken.

A complaint from a neighbor is easily ignored, because it has no leverage. A formal letter from a law office, on the other hand, implies a costly waste of time and money.

Now the owner has a choice. He can spend money on a lawyer himself, or he can agree to a free security upgrade to his home (motion sensor lighting).

I'm no lawyer, but as a translator I see this kind of carrot/stick approach used a lot. It combines negative reinforcement (avoiding a lawsuit) with positive reinforcement (free motion sensors).

Best,
David




The above suggestion will work only under one condition:

That there is a statute or ordinance or other legislation, having to do with lighting or light trespass in place, covering the locality of concern and dealing with the lighting issue at hand.

Absent such legislation, a letter from a lawyer (if you can even get a lawyer to write such a letter), is nothing more than a bluff.

Granted that such a bluff might work, but the other party is just as apt to call your bluff - in which case you have no recourse but to take him to court
and hope that you draw a judge sympathetic to your cause. It may not even get to a judge though as many places routinely refer these sorts of disputes to mandatory mediation/arbitration.

If he calls your bluff and you don't sue, you've lost - big time. He's out nothing and you've paid a lawyer to write a letter. If you do take legal action, you may ( or may not ) win. There are no guarantees here.

One thing is clear. Taking someone to court over an issue such as this opens Pandora's Box. And it can Never be shut again.

I'd think long and hard befor taking this kind of action.


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obin robinson
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: court order new [Re: Kfrank]
      #6115788 - 10/03/13 06:03 PM

Get the lawyer. When you go to court say that the light shines directly into your daughter's bedroom. Boom. Case closed in your favor.

obin


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: court order new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6115814 - 10/03/13 06:23 PM

Quote:

Boom. Case closed in your favor.




Nothing is 100%. Ken explained what might happen very well in his last post here.


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germana1
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Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6115982 - 10/03/13 08:12 PM

The way the world is now Kens advice is sound. No one wants to disturb a hornets nest.
Pete


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csrlice12
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Re: court order new [Re: csa/montana]
      #6116051 - 10/03/13 08:55 PM

and when you're neighbor prints out this thread and presents it in court after you just claimed it was about your daughter's sleep to the judge....the neighbor already knows its about astronomy.....

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darknesss
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Reged: 09/05/13

Re: court order new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6148781 - 10/20/13 05:53 PM

Quote:

and when you're neighbor prints out this thread and presents it in court after you just claimed it was about your daughter's sleep to the judge....the neighbor already knows its about astronomy.....



And since the OP lists his coordinates, the burglars could find the location of the unoccupied illuminated house... if only they didn't fail geography.


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