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General Astronomy >> Light Pollution

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AcesDJD
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Reged: 10/06/13

Which number on the scale best correlates with
      #6126622 - 10/09/13 09:40 AM

http://stellarium.org/img/screenshots/0.10-bortle.jpg

your darkness conditions, and what can you see? To standardize things let's say under good, but not exceptional conditions. Although my wife disagrees, we're definitely about a 7 here, and that's under good conditions. I can make out the big dipper, the constellation Orion (I can see that Betelgeuse is definitely red, mistook it at first for mars being far away lol) and Cancer. There's probably more I can see but no telescope or binonculars and still trying to learn the constellations under trying light conditions.

You don't have to necessarily address my post here, but I think it would be fun for members to post their number, maybe scope size, and some of the notable objects they can see just for fun.


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obin robinson
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Loc: League City, TX
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6126634 - 10/09/13 09:49 AM

Bortle 9.

obin


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AcesDJD
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Reged: 10/06/13

Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6126647 - 10/09/13 10:00 AM

Does the emoticon mean you can't see anything....?

Anyway, at least in TX you can't be too far away from a dark sky. It doesn't get any better than 3 in the whole country here, and that would be hours from me.


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obin robinson
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6126661 - 10/09/13 10:09 AM

The light pollution from the baseball parks, sports fields, plazas, and car dealerships is so bad that I can barely see the core of M31! The only salvation is when I get the gear out at 5 AM. The baseball parks and sports fields turn their lights off and I can see a tiny bit more.

Most constellations are completely missing several stars with the naked eye. I can't wait until a hurricane kills the power around here for a week or two. I think that only then will people realize just how much light pollution there is.

I have semi-dark skies about 20 minutes away and fairly dark skies an hour away. Other than that our Bortle 9 skies can ONLY be explored with astrophotography.

obin


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AcesDJD
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Reged: 10/06/13

Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6126750 - 10/09/13 10:53 AM

Might be worth a longer commute in the future, maybe. What's your personal sense of satisfaction when you're out in a fairly clear 9 sky? That's its worth it overall...?

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obin robinson
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6126795 - 10/09/13 11:23 AM

Certainly! You just have to shift your interest into satellites, double stars, planets, clusters, and brighter nebula. After seeing something like TOPEX/Poseidon, a bright ISS pass, Saturn, Jupiter, or even the Orion Nebula it's well worth it though.

obin


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AcesDJD
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Reged: 10/06/13

Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6126823 - 10/09/13 11:36 AM

If I am able to distinguish the bands on Jupiter, the rings on saturn, some of the sattelites, find some nebulae and star clusters, and be able to split some doubles which will show their color difference right into my eye I think I'd be happy.

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Tony Flanders
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6126962 - 10/09/13 01:06 PM

Quote:

If I am able to distinguish the bands on Jupiter, the rings on saturn, some of the sattelites, find some nebulae and star clusters, and be able to split some doubles which will show their color difference right into my eye I think I'd be happy.




Aside from nebulae -- and to a lesser degree star clusters -- all of those are every bit as easy in a bright city as in the most remote rural location.


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wargrafix
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Reged: 04/10/13

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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6127150 - 10/09/13 02:28 PM

This may seem like a voice of discontentment, but its a sad state of affairs when we begin to settle for less and less and even less. I live is not so good skies and its very frustrating. I am trying to see if I can improve things where I am but its a rough uphill battle. Everyone afraid of the dark.

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obin robinson
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6127154 - 10/09/13 02:32 PM

Quote:

If I am able to distinguish the bands on Jupiter, the rings on saturn, some of the sattelites, find some nebulae and star clusters, and be able to split some doubles which will show their color difference right into my eye I think I'd be happy.




You should be able to without a problem. With an 80mm apo refractor and a 9mm eyepiece I can clearly split doubles and see color differences even from my front yard (which is far more light polluted than the back yard).

obin


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BrooksObs
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Reged: 12/08/12

Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6127177 - 10/09/13 02:45 PM

Currently, a 4 bordering on a 5.

20 years ago a 3.

40 years ago 1-2 and at 50+ years it must have been a solid 1 here...all at the very same location! Yet, I'm regarded as lucky by many!

BrooksObs


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richard7Moderator
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: BrooksObs]
      #6127349 - 10/09/13 04:18 PM

On an average night, 7.
On a rare, very good night, 5.


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AcesDJD
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Reged: 10/06/13

Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: richard7]
      #6127775 - 10/09/13 08:03 PM

To the person who posted earlier, I wouldn't say I'm satisfied at all, but personally considering I live in a metro area of 20 million or so I'm thankful for what I can see. Just a five mile ride towards the center of the city would let me see only a few dozen stars under good conditions. Under bad conditions people there can only see objects less than magnitude 1.

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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6127779 - 10/09/13 08:04 PM

Would those of you who replied mind stating what are some favored objects that you are able to see from your mostly mediocre conditions

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wargrafix
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Reged: 04/10/13

Loc: Trinidad
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6128698 - 10/10/13 10:02 AM

you know things are bad when a local power blackout makes things from 9 to just 8.

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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: wargrafix]
      #6128845 - 10/10/13 11:12 AM

Ouch, well its definitely a 9 here most of the summer if not worse because of air pollution, as I'm doing more naked eye observations, I'm also realizing it's at least partly cloudy a lot more nights than I realized. You don't think much about a partly cloudy night when you aren't observing...

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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6134860 - 10/13/13 11:57 AM

Well let's see hear I'd like to finish this off by comparing the amount of stars we can cover with one hand, naturally in theory only. My hand's on the small side and if I hold it up high it will end blocking on average 5 stars. I heard Betelgeuse is *BLEEP* about this so be careful around him.

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Tony Flanders
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6134931 - 10/13/13 12:40 PM

Quote:

Well let's see hear I'd like to finish this off by comparing the amount of stars we can cover with one hand, naturally in theory only. My hand's on the small side and if I hold it up high it will end blocking on average 5 stars. I heard Betelgeuse is *BLEEP* about this so be careful around him.




That's too vague; the star density varies immensely from one part of the sky to another. At a typical suburban location it could easily vary from 20 in and around Orion to zero in parts of Aquarius.


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6136848 - 10/14/13 12:27 PM

Well you're right about that, especially when you have a washed out horizon to boot. Don't have twenty in any part of the sky here tho. But yes even straight up I can see a variance. I'm working on talking my wife into us moving to one of the few green zones in the country, she seems suprisingly receptive so far but we'll see how long that lasts

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obin robinson
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6138084 - 10/14/13 11:24 PM

Just for sake of discussion I just went outside 5 minutes ago and counted all the stars visible from my backyard with the naked eye. Mind you I only gave myself about two minutes to acclimate to the darkness. Also the moon is quite full but not totally full. In any case I counted every star I could see. The grand total: 27. Yep. I can only see 27 stars with the naked eye. You guys that live in areas with less light pollution don't know just how good you have it. I remember looking up at a full moon sky and seeing countless hundreds of stars still visible. Not here.

obin


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6138101 - 10/14/13 11:39 PM

Well last night I looked up and I couldn't see any. So there Of course it was cloudy...

Seriously though what time was this? I have to do a test when the weather clears out, but I suspect with the moon out around 8/9 pm I might get similar results. 11pm is when things start getting a lot better.


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obin robinson
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6138361 - 10/15/13 06:15 AM

This was at about 9:30PM local time. It is cloudy now and the mornings are better because many lights which stay on until midnight are finally off. In the morning I estimate that I can see a hundred or so stars with the naked eye.

obin


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6138561 - 10/15/13 08:53 AM

Quote:

http://stellarium.org/img/screenshots/0.10-bortle.jpg

your darkness conditions, and what can you see?




It's a little hard to say. I don't find that Stellarium site helpful at all. But going by John Bortle's original criteria, I would have to classify the skies of my local urban park in Cambridge, MA, as Class 8 on a typical night of good transparency -- which is fairly common here in New England except in the summer.

It correlates pretty well: My limiting magnitude is a bit better than 4.5; I can see M31 and M44 naked-eye, but only with considerable effort, and many of the stars making up the traditional constellations are missing, especially low in the sky.

However, all of the Messier objects are detectable through my 7-inch scope, which is certainly modest by modern standards. And many of them are quite pleasing -- though that's bound to be a subjective judgment.

By the way, this is 4.5 miles from the center of Boston, a metropolis of several million people.

My country home (halfway between Albany, NY and Pittsfield, MA) is harder to classify. It meets most of the criteria for Bortle Class 4. But the zodiacal light is pretty hard to detect, because it just happens that Albany is to the west and Pittsfield is to the east, and those are the directions where the zodiacal light is strongest.

If the dominant light sources were north and south rather than east and west, but the level of light pollution overall was the same, then the zodiacal light would be easy to see, but the southern Milky Way would be much harder to see. On the whole, I think I have the better deal!

The worst location where I have done much time stargazing is Manhattan, which is a good match for Class 9 in most ways. Limiting magnitude just about 4.0, only the Pleiades readily visible naked-eye. (This assumes being on a balcony or in a park where there are few or no lights shining in my eyes.)

However, most of the Messier objects are still visible through modest-sized telescopes, and several of them aside from open clusters are quite attractive. That list is headed by, but not restricted to, the Orion Nebula.

Judging by posts on Cloudy Nights, the biggest problem for most American stargazers is direct glare from nearby lights rather than skyglow. The Bortle Scale is really couched in terms of skyglow, so it's not necessarily applicable in a typical suburban backyard.


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6138626 - 10/15/13 09:36 AM

Obin, I think our conditions are similar. I think I'm going to look at living in a white zone as a challenge rather than focus on the negative side too much.

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Tony Flanders
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6138652 - 10/15/13 09:45 AM

Quote:

This was at about 9:30PM local time. It is cloudy now and the mornings are better because many lights which stay on until midnight are finally off. In the morning I estimate that I can see a hundred or so stars with the naked eye.




It's also because of the sky itself. During evenings in autumn, the southern sky is filled with faint constellations; the only really bright stars are Fomalhaut and Deneb Kaitos.

Before dawn you're seeing the winter sky, which is by far the brightest sector, including the brightest constellation (Orion) and the brightest star besides the Sun (Sirius).

What fraction of the sky can you see, and do you have lights shining directly into your backyard? Those are more likely to limit the number of visible stars than skyglow is.


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AcesDJD
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Reged: 10/06/13

Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6138663 - 10/15/13 09:47 AM

Tony, I know the new england area quite well. I grew up outside of Providence which is supposedly a red zone on the map, but is definitely not significantly better than my current white zone. Hale-Bopp was an incredible dissapointment just looked like a star and couldn't make out a tail at all. I later lived in the Berkshires on the NY line, and my interest in astronomy had kind of fallen off at that point, but there was not an impressive amount of stars in the night sky and I never saw the Milky Way there. The main difference with my former red zone was there were more stars closer to the horizon but Albany and Pittsfield's light domes didn't make it all that impressive.

A somewhat impressive location I spent some time at was central Vermont. I'd guess it was a green zone, didn't see the Milky Way either but there were at around a couple thousand stars visible on a good night I'd say and quite a lot near the horizon as well. The best skies I ever saw where in Eastern Kentucky in the mountains and I can't find the small town on the light map, but I bet it was a blue zone easily. I still didn't see the Milky Way, but that may have just been my lack of experience in having seen it before. An unbelievable amount probably 5,000 stars and tons near the horizon too. Would love to live in an area like that.

Anyhow, I've been a bit of gypsy, I also lived in Brookline for a short time, so what you wrote is encouraging to me as I should be able to approach your results with experience. I'm looking to purchase some books are there any particular ones you recommend for white zone people?


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obin robinson
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6138722 - 10/15/13 10:21 AM

Quote:

Obin, I think our conditions are similar. I think I'm going to look at living in a white zone as a challenge rather than focus on the negative side too much.




That is the way I look at it as well. You have seen the pictures that I can do with basic gear in a heavily polluted suburban yard. The tough part is finding the deep sky objects to photograph. Goto is a necessity for some of them. I only found the whirlpool galaxy using astrophotography. Even through my 10 inch telescope it was pretty much invisible.

I find the greatest challenge in suburban observing to be hunting geostationary satellites. They are extremely dim but finding one is like locating a needle in a hay stack. It is satisfying and lots of fun just to search for the "star" that is not moving.

obin


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6138820 - 10/15/13 11:19 AM

Yeah that's why I think I'm going sct. If I was in a dark zone I think I'd try the dobsonian. It would be fun to locate objects on my own, but here I think I'd eventually lose interest. Never thought about looking for sattelites or the space station or things like that, but that would be a pretty neat find.

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Tony Flanders
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6138872 - 10/15/13 11:52 AM

Quote:

I grew up outside of Providence which is supposedly a red zone on the map, but is definitely not significantly better than my current white zone. Hale-Bopp was an incredible dissapointment just looked like a star and couldn't make out a tail at all.




That surprises me greatly. Hale-Bopp was quite prominent, with a beautiful tail, from here in Cambridge.

Quote:

I later lived in the Berkshires on the NY line ... there was not an impressive amount of stars in the night sky and I never saw the Milky Way there.




That surprises me even more. Did you have bright lights around?

I know every road that crosses the MA/NY line, and from every one of them, from Connecticut to Vermont, the Milky Way should be instantly obvious at the state line, as soon as you turn off your headlights. (Obviously, on I90, you would also have to wait for a break in the traffic.)

Sure, there's ample light pollution all around. But the summer Milky Way is ultrabright, shining easily even through pretty heavy suburban light pollution. And nowhere on the MA/NY line could reasonably be called suburban by any normal definition.

Quote:

I'm looking to purchase some books are there any particular ones you recommend for white zone people?




Rod Mollise's Urban Astronomer's Guide is the classic.


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6139809 - 10/15/13 08:59 PM

I think I was a bad observer in VT because there was a ton of stars there, but didn't see the milky way. I wasn't far from Pittsfield so maybe that's why the Berkshires weren't good? Not exactly a big city so dunno. Yeah Hale-Bopp ticked me off because I was reading the papers about all these great observations and didn't see all that much from where I was. Oh well, maybe Ison will be better for me.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll have to get that book off ebay.


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6140322 - 10/16/13 06:12 AM

Quote:

I think I was a bad observer in VT because there was a ton of stars there, but didn't see the milky way.




Yes, I can't make any sense of that. All I can imagine is that you saw the Milky Way and didn't recognize it. Or perhaps you were never away from light long enough to become dark adapted.

Some of the houses near my country home have "security" lights on all the time. Very likely the people who live there have never seen the Milky Way -- though they easily could at the flick of a switch.

If you were only there for a few months, it might have to do with the time of year. The summer Milky Way is unmistakable, but the winter Milky Way is much subtler. I can easily imagine somebody overlooking it if they didn't know what to expect. And in spring, the Milky Way lies close to the horizon and is quite hard to see -- especially if the horizon is blocked by trees.

Yet another possibility is that your night vision is severely defective. Have you asked your eye doctor about this?

Quote:

Yeah Hale-Bopp ticked me off because I was reading the papers about all these great observations and didn't see all that much from where I was.




Again this baffles me, because my wife and mother-in-law, both of whom have quite poor vision, found Hale-Bopp quite impressive from heavily light-polluted surroundings.

Quote:

Oh well, maybe Ison will be better for me.




Extremely unlikely. We'll be lucky if ISON ever becomes visible at all to the unaided eye.

Edited by Tony Flanders (10/16/13 07:38 AM)


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6140520 - 10/16/13 09:41 AM

I don't know about my night vision I don't tend to trip over things when I'm out and about in the dark, I wasn't even aware there was a specific test for it. One possible explanation for the aforementioned mysteries was perhaps I needed glasses a lot earlier than I got them? After getting married in my mid twenties my wife suggested I get my eyes checked, I forget why, and the doctor said my eyes were somewhat weak. I don't have thick glasses, but they're a few levels up from the weakest that are sold.

If you don't mind I have a couple of observation questions somewhat related to this: I hate my glasses so as usual I was being stubborn and observing without them. My wife suggested I try them and see what the difference would be. I can't quite say how many more stars began popping into vision, but I had definitely been missing some. Around 11pm at roughly zenith at 37.5 north I found this beautiful yellow star with glasses on. When I took my glasses back off I couldn't see anything there at all. I'm guessing this star is between Mag 5-6, although it could be as low as 4.5 I'm still learning this stuff. Anyways I'd love to know the name.

As for VT I was well adapted I was hanging out some nights with my girlfriend at the time to watch the August meteor showers, which were a site I hadn't seen before. I doubt my vision was anywhere near as bad as it is now, but it likely wasn't 20/20, but from pics I don't get the impression it is hard to see.

Edited by AcesDJD (10/16/13 09:43 AM)


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6140572 - 10/16/13 10:14 AM

Obin, I went out at 10pm your time to do a count under an almost full moon. Without the full moon, I'd say the weather would be ideal. I just did a count of the bright stars that I can see sans glasses rather than take a long time getting dark adapted and all that. I counted a 102 stars. Not great, but not awful considering it's still early here. I can only barely see delphinus tonight and probably wouldn't have recognized it at all if I hadn't known where to look for it. I also found I think another one which looks either like a W or an M and is getting close to zenith. It's a pretty big one, much bigger than delphinus.

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Tony Flanders
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6140577 - 10/16/13 10:18 AM

Quote:

One possible explanation for the aforementioned mysteries was perhaps I needed glasses a lot earlier than I got them?




No, that wouldn't explain it. Glasses make a huge difference for the visibility of stars, which are point sources. But I'm pretty myopic, and I can see the Milky Way equally well with or without glasses. It's huge and fuzzy either way.

Quote:

Around 11pm at roughly zenith at 37.5 north I found this beautiful yellow star with glasses on. When I took my glasses back off I couldn't see anything there at all. I'm guessing this star is between Mag 5-6, although it could be as low as 4.5 I'm still learning this stuff.




Impossible to guess. The star -- or whatever it was -- was surely brighter than mag 4.5, otherwise it wouldn't have stimulated color vision. (Mag 5 and 6 are fainter than mag 4.5.) But there are so many reasonably bright yellowish stars that I wouldn't even venture to guess.

Quite likely it was something ephemeral -- an airplane or satellite, or possibly even a head-on meteor.

Quote:

As for VT I was well adapted I was hanging out some nights with my girlfriend at the time to watch the August meteor showers.




OK, now I'm really baffled! How you can fail to see the Milky Way when you're observing the Perseids from a dark site is a mystery to me. No doubt you saw it but didn't notice it.


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6140638 - 10/16/13 10:42 AM

Maybe my mind was on other beauties.....:)

The yellow/orange star I'm seeing is definitely a star I've seen it multiple times with glasses now, same location. I can rule out Betelgeuse and mars, but that's about it, I need to get some of these books soon.


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6140887 - 10/16/13 01:04 PM

Quote:

The yellow/orange star I'm seeing is definitely a star I've seen it multiple times with glasses now, same location. I can rule out Betelgeuse and mars, but that's about it.




Okay, I was thrown off by your talk of magnitudes. Mag 5 and 6 are very faint, and mag 4.5 is barely visible in a typical suburb. If it's a star that could be mentioned in the same sentence with Betelgeuse -- and appear yellow -- it must be much, much brighter, around magnitude 1 or even 0.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the star was actually Capella, even though that's less than halfway up the sky at 11 p.m.


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obin robinson
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Loc: League City, TX
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6142383 - 10/17/13 07:41 AM Attachment (7 downloads)

Quote:

Obin, I went out at 10pm your time to do a count under an almost full moon. Without the full moon, I'd say the weather would be ideal. I just did a count of the bright stars that I can see sans glasses rather than take a long time getting dark adapted and all that. I counted a 102 stars. Not great, but not awful considering it's still early here. I can only barely see delphinus tonight and probably wouldn't have recognized it at all if I hadn't known where to look for it. I also found I think another one which looks either like a W or an M and is getting close to zenith. It's a pretty big one, much bigger than delphinus.




You might actually have better skies than I do! This morning it is cloudy so I took a photo at 6AM (about an hour before sunrise) of the sky to give you an idea of the sky glow and light pollution.

This is a 1/2 second photo taken with my point-and-shoot camera. These are lights which are about 1km away reflecting off the clouds. These lights are on from before sunset until after sunrise every day of the year. This is the kind of excessive light pollution I have to deal with here.

obin


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6142469 - 10/17/13 08:58 AM

Yuck, that's what we deal with here to about 30 degrees up the horizon I'd guesttimate and at times its even worse. I'd say the first 30 degrees are washed out of all but magnitude 1 maybe 2 if I'm being generous, basically the heavy hitters like sirius, betelgeuse and the like are the only ones that really cut through.

Wonder if you could help me with something...I'm looking at two telescopes currently one is an 8" celestron SE with no accesories and the cheap stand (I understand it isn't great anyways) and the other is the 9.25 xlt with a strong tripod and several different lenses, laser collimator the basic accesories essentially. I can get the 8se for 1400 shipped or the 9.25 xlt for 2100 shipped. I've decided I'm not going to factor in weight, hopefully a heavy telescope will bulk me up. Neither would be a grab and go.

I'll take a look at the sky here later if you're interested at all, I think it may have clouded over though.


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6142476 - 10/17/13 09:04 AM

Tony,

I located Capella at about exactly where you described it, so it definitely wasn't the one I was referring to. It's not a standout star like Capella or Betelgeuse at all, it's actually hard to see (from here anyway) but it's got this beautiful yellow color to it. I can see several reddish stars but this is the only yellow one. Wish I had a more unobstructed view here and could see more constellations and unfortunately I have a piece of garbage chromebook which won't let me download stellarium.

Edited by AcesDJD (10/17/13 09:08 AM)


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obin robinson
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Loc: League City, TX
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6142515 - 10/17/13 09:29 AM

Quote:

Wonder if you could help me with something...I'm looking at two telescopes currently one is an 8" celestron SE with no accesories and the cheap stand (I understand it isn't great anyways) and the other is the 9.25 xlt with a strong tripod and several different lenses, laser collimator the basic accesories essentially. I can get the 8se for 1400 shipped or the 9.25 xlt for 2100 shipped. I've decided I'm not going to factor in weight, hopefully a heavy telescope will bulk me up. Neither would be a grab and go.

I'll take a look at the sky here later if you're interested at all, I think it may have clouded over though.




The cost difference between those two I am not sure justifies the increase in aperture. If it was my money I would go for the 8" and then get the DIY skills working to make a better tripod. Tripods are very easy to make and if you want a cheap but strong pier get a bench grinder mount from a home improvement store. Here is a link to one:

http://www.tooltopia.com/sunex-tools-5003.aspx?utm_source=pricegrabber&ut...

You can make some longer legs for it or just bolt it into the ground if you want a permanent pier. In my washed out skies I have found that more aperture helps with astrophotography. With visual all it does it make the sky go from dark blue to medium grey and some of the stars that were invisible are now visible in the medium grey. I could get a 24" telescope but it would be wasted in skies like this.

obin


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6142533 - 10/17/13 09:40 AM

Would a red zone be the same deal? I have a friend with a farm outside of town here with no local lights at all, but its still going to be heavily affected by Seoul's lightdome but at zenith shouldn't be bad at all.

The guy with the 9.25 has six lenses with it as well, are lots of lenses pretty easy to come by? Also he has the weights with it, does the 8se not need weights? I've read posts about the motor getting ruined without weights but I think that was for bigger scopes.

You've got me leaning towards the 8se, but this is going to be the only scope I buy for years so its a tough call..


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6142563 - 10/17/13 09:55 AM

Well the 8se is gone now, snooze you lose I guess. I took an observation under near full moon and partly cloudy conditions a grand total of ten stars/

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obin robinson
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Reged: 10/25/12

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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6144008 - 10/17/13 11:55 PM

The 9.25 doesn't sound like a bad deal. It would be worth investigating.

obin


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Live_Steam_Mad
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Reged: 07/24/07

Loc: Moss Bank, St.Helens, England
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6154006 - 10/23/13 04:10 PM

For me here in St.Helens, 12 miles from Liverpool, England I seem to have a sky that looks like a 6 at best on a Moon less light when clear. On the map of ;-

https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/dlorenz/web/astronomy/lp2006/overlay/dark.html

...I am in a darker red area.

I found it interesting that most *very* large cities like London have an inner White core, that inner white core is *several* times larger in e.g. Chicago or Manhattan. Then most large cities such as Birmingham or Manchester, England have a large area of light grey, Toronto, Canada has a very large area of light grey compared to e.g. Manchester, which already has rediculously bad LP.

Then, areas which have a TON of light pollution such as central Liverpool (2 Million people in the whole city), are shown as bright red, no grey, and areas like the centre of St.Helens (186,000 people, 23,500 street lights ) are shown as dark red.

What is interesting also is that in the St.Helens town centre the ability to see anything at all is almost impossible (1 star on a clear night was about all I saw) but that is because of all the unshielded lights pouring orange light and glare into my eyes from large amounts of High Pressure Sodium SON-T 70W lamps (like one every 10 metres or it seems).

And yet here in Hillbrae Avenue, Moss Bank on the "border" between urban / industry and suburban / rural (Pilkington's Glass Cowley Hill plant 1.5 miles away, major source of many huge BRIGHT orange lights pouring into the sky, WAY brighter than any street lights I ever saw, and Pilkington Glass Ravenhead plant 2.5 miles away ( 5 large white BRIGHT lights, again brighter than street lights), and the many many bright lights of British Oxygen Company's industrial plant just a few streets away - and yet there are green fields stretching for miles to my North West and North, the sky is WAY better than in central St.Helens from here, an awesome large difference. At the rear of my home, when I observe from one particular place on the patio, I have no direct lights of any kind visible near me at all.

Also when I go to my friend Jon H's house 2 miles away at Billinge, to use his 8" LX90 ACF, the Southern sky (and the rest as well) gets very much darker and it can be mesmerising from there on a clear night. But even there after 30mins of dark adaptation you can still see you are under a bright suburban sky, just on the verge of starting to be rural. Maybe almost a 5 on that simulation shown on the 1st post in this topic.

And yet all 3 areas above (central St.H, Moss Bank, Billinge) are all shown as dark red! But the skies are nothing like each other! Must be a lot to do with the amount of lights directed towards you, not all to do with the actual sky glow as such. BUT there are no direct lights on me here and neither are there at Jon's house but his sky is quite different from mine (darker) yet both of us are in the dark red zone

So there are areas of St.Helens that (and I can't believe I am saying this) have radically different amounts of visible light pollution even though it's all graded as the same dark red on that map.

As a guide, when I used my 19.5" dob some years ago, M13 globular cluster looked just like a photo taken with a 100" reflector in an old book I had, absolutely awesome, possibly several thousand stars directly visible without needing hardly any averted vision, a very large twinkling ball of sugar dust, rather bright as well, M57 Ring nebula was just awesome too and quite bright. The limiting magnitude is about 4.4 from here at the very best, judgeing by what stars I can see in Corona Borealis when I last checked. It's a very bright suburban sky here. Ground is very dark, sky is very bright, and that's on a clear moonless night.

M31 is impossible to see with direct vision of unaided eyes here when it's directly overhead on a clear moonless night with good transparency. I checked several times. I can see it easily in binoculars though. Even in the 19.5" I never saw ANY dust lanes or detail, I was so dissappointed that it hardly looked any different from the view in my 10x50 bino's

BTW I seem to have quite "noisy" night vision, not exceptional at all. AND I have severe Astigmatism (3+ dioptres) and am forced to wear glasses.

What is really sickening is that some years ago when there was a blackout of the street lights for more than 2 miles in every direction due to a local substation blowing out, the sky did NOT change at ALL overhead It was still as bright orange as when the power was ON...

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

Edited by Live_Steam_Mad (10/23/13 04:29 PM)


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Live_Steam_Mad
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Reged: 07/24/07

Loc: Moss Bank, St.Helens, England
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Live_Steam_Mad]
      #6154075 - 10/23/13 04:59 PM

Forgot to mention, this is what my Bortle level 6 / dark red zone sky looks like here in Moss Bank, St,Helens, England, UK ;-

https://picasaweb.google.com/101932667412801910198/LightPollutionFromStHelens...

Regards,

Alistair G.

Edited by Live_Steam_Mad (10/23/13 05:24 PM)


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Live_Steam_Mad]
      #6154356 - 10/23/13 08:17 PM

When I first looked at your pictures I was thinking it looked lit up like Christmas even worse than here, but when I took a closer look at the skyglow, I see that yours is much lower on the horizon. Was this an evening picture? I suspect a lot of those house lights get turned off and you could get some good viewing very late at night.

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Live_Steam_Mad
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Reged: 07/24/07

Loc: Moss Bank, St.Helens, England
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6154697 - 10/24/13 12:59 AM

Hi, Yes these were a set of evening pictures taken out of my upstairs house windows (I live 1/2 way up a hill) at maybe 8PM if I remember right. Nope those lights NEVER get turned off during the night. The reason is that they are NOT house lights, they are all the lights of streets or roads or industry (I labelled most pictures to say which).

However St.Helens has a new policy in certain places where they have installed new lights as part of the BLISS project where they are starting to dim (can't believe I just wrote that ) maybe a thousand or so street lights (out of 23,500) after 10pm to 75 per cent, then down to 50 per cent after midnight, and they usually also change the High Pressure Sodium SON-T 70W lights to White CPO lights but with 50W lamps, BUT usually NO shielding (Cobra Heads), but that was a European partner project that only lasted 3 years. Also however they just passed a thing through the council saying that they are spending 1.7m GBP over the next several years to change a lot more of the lights to save energy. Probably more of the same (white light conversion, usually NOT LED's, St.Helens is a wierd place and seems to prefer White incandesent lights with NO shielding ).

The only lights I ever saw that were shielded were the ones in Queensway road just down the road where they are on short posts and have FULL CUT OFFS (I can't believe I just wrote that either), it was like a walk in a foreign country when I went down there a few nights ago for a look, and on Martindale Road on the way to Jon's house 2 miles away to use his 8" ACF at Billinge (fully shielded, HPS, very tall masts). Oh and some LED sort-of-shielded lights on trial down the road from Jon's in a Cul De Sac. Preposterously BRIGHT , but the houses were in near darkness and the road was bright white. I shuddered when I saw them.

It's odd how I look out of the landing window at Pilkington's lights and see the sky near the horizon is very, very bright, which is my ruined view to the South (unfortunate that's where all the interesting things are!! )

But that if I look about 110 degrees round to the right hand side out of the same window, facing West or just past it to NNW, the sky goes hugely darker in comparison, near the horizon. And believe me it does have an effect. My Southern sky is a washed out disaster zone, but my Northern sky is actually impressive for 5 seconds when I walk out the back door until my eyes very quickly adjust, and within 10 minutes I am starting to feel annoyed, and within 20 mins I start to feel a little physically sick at the sight of the brightness of the sky. But I am very grateful that it's not worse. I am insanely jealous of my local friend Jon H. who is 2 miles futher out from St.Helens at Billinge, his sky is remarkably different and darker than mine, and his Southern sky is very good compared to mine. Until I've spent 30 mins in the dark at his house and then realise it only really seems maybe 1/3 darker than where I live, if that, and it's really a rather depressingly bright suburban sky (if not almost rural).

I used to just about see the Milky Way from here in the late 1980's but that's LONG gone. I sometimes think I can see the Milky Way running through Perseus into Cygnus directly overhead, like I saw tonight under a 75 per cent Moon which was 45 degrees altitude, but it's very hard to tell and I think it might be my imagination? It's like an extremely subtle higher density "cloud" of stars with a very dark grey color. I've never seen the Milky Way in Summer at all, ever.

I checked the limiting magnitude here tonight with the clear sky and good transparency which we had (a clear sky being rather unusual for NW England, but good transparency is not uncommon since it rains a LOT, but we usually have terrible seeing with powerfully scintillating stars) and I was able to see the two mag 4.3 and one mag. 4.2 stars in the Small Bear's (Ursa Minor) Tail coming down below Polaris. I was outside viewing at like 1AM until 2:30AM. Those stars were only at around 40 degrees above the horizon. Not as bad as I thought, given the 75 per cent Moon destroying the contrast (which my home was shielding). I must check the LM at Zenith next time it's a clear transparent moon-less sky.

I am 39 years old and I have never seen a dark sky in my life, I have only ever lived in either Crosby / Waterloo Liverpool or Marshall's Cross, St.Helens or Moss Bank St.Helens and only ever had 2 holidays in my whole life, and they were both in Torquay, Devon (loads of LP).

If I ever see a proper dark sky I am worried I might either faint from the excitement or have a middle aged heart attack miles from the nearest hospital at the sight of thousands of stars in a high contrast sky

Seriously, I need to attend a Star Party sometime. The local Liverpool Astronomical Society has an observatory in fairly moderately badly light polluted Widnes, about 6 miles away, with a 12" Meade SCT in a dome, or there are the Side Walk Astronomy events. But that's not a dark sky Even when they go to Martin Mere (rather darker than here, orange on the map) they hold the event on a Moon lit night for the public!

My Uncle George lives about 10 miles away in Burscough and even though that's not that far from Liverpool, it's further North from here and surrounded by fields and is orange on the map (supposed to be rather darker than even my friend Jon's house) but he has BRIGHT outside security lights that he says are rigged to come on every time he opens the back door Anyway I must go round there sometime with binoculars and check out how dark it really is. It would fascinate me. Also he very occasionally visits Shetland (island far off the Coast of Scotland, used to be owned by Norway) where he does family history research and stays at the local hotel. There is virtually no light pollution there. I have asked to go with him next time he goes.

My cousin Jacqueline lives in a hamlet high on a hill outside Barrow in Furness, England, called Broughton Beck, it's rediculously remote and hard to imagine. I asked my Aunt if the sky there glowed orange at night like it did here and in Culcheth locally where she is. I was shocked and went green with envy and red with rage when she said no the sky was black when she went into the garden for 20 mins to look at all the hundreds and hundreds of stars that were visible

The other side effect of going to a dark sky site (so I am told) is that you feel like you can't observe for months afterwards from where you normally live I have yet to experience all this... Sorry I am so long-winded

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

Edited by Live_Steam_Mad (10/25/13 02:35 PM)


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Live_Steam_Mad]
      #6154881 - 10/24/13 06:47 AM

Quote:

I found it interesting that most *very* large cities like London have an inner White core, that inner white core is *several* times larger in e.g. Chicago or Manhattan.




Can you say "green belt?" Urban planning does have an effect! Also, the New York metropolitan area is much bigger than London's. Manhattan itself generates a negligible fraction of New York's light pollution.

Quote:

Toronto, Canada has a very large area of light grey compared to e.g. Manchester.




This is a know anomaly in the original Light Pollution Atlas. The satellite readings were done in winter, so areas with snow cover (Chicago, Minneapolis, Toronto, Montreal) appear much, much worse on the map than they really are.


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AcesDJD
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Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Live_Steam_Mad]
      #6156523 - 10/24/13 10:46 PM

Well it sounds like your area is at least off to a good start with having some lights shielded and dimming lights late at night. Perhaps a reason for future optimism? Here in Korea I think there's no chance of even moderate improvements at all, because environmentalism isn't even on the radar here let alone light pollution.

The one lucky stroke I have is that our appartment complex has a huge wall built of some kind of thick plastic or something that is designed to block out the road noises (which it accomplishes quite well) I don't think it does anything for the sky mag, but it blocks out many of the immediate area street lights.

I'm almost certain I can't see mag 4 stars when the moon is out here. I'm now second guessing myself, but when there was no moon I believe I made out a mag 4 constellation, well anyway I haven't been able to see it at all since the moon is over the horizon now, not even a single star from it.

Well anyhow, things could be much worse


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Live_Steam_Mad
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Reged: 07/24/07

Loc: Moss Bank, St.Helens, England
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6157645 - 10/25/13 03:13 PM

Quote:

environmentalism isn't even on the radar here let alone light pollution.




The Environment is almost entirely irrelevant to most people in the heavily populated parts of the North West of England, I have lived here long enough to know that. Hence the popularity of the SIX MILES long Blackpool Lights / Illuminations ;-

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2012-08-31/blackpools-illuminations-preparati...

...that I *loved* as a young boy and now have very mixed emotions about since I still adore the colors and styles of the illuminations and ESPECIALLY the TRAMS ;-

http://www.blackpool-illuminations.net/trams.html

...but look what it does to the astromoners in Blackpool when seen from a mile or two away ;-

http://www.ephotozine.com/articles/blackpool-illuminations---nighttime-photog...

...I feel a bit sorry for the local Astronomers (and there are some would you believe it), it's an event which has been going since virtually the invention of the electric light itself. It will never be ended. Glare shields would not be practical there I suppose, but UPLIGHT shields would be a good idea.

The late Patrick Moore (Host of The Sky At Night TV programme) once complained of the beam being sent out from Blackpool Tower which could be seen 30 miles away and I can see his point. BTW Sky at Night has just been nominally cancelled by the BBC after more than 50 years and there is a petition about it that 51,700 people have signed (Google it for those in UK) including me and some of my friends.

Most people here are afraid of the "dark" and energy must be very cheap as every 1 in 8 approx. houses has an outside unshielded light left on permanently all night. Yet people complain bitterly about the recent 10 per cent hike in energy bills. Well turn the lights off then doah! And my car was vandalised (mirror snapped off and hanging down by it's wires) right across the road from a VERY bright unshielded street light here so light does NOT deter crime in my experience.

If I am honest I don't really need it to be jet black or anything with EVERY light turned off, I am just wanting a low brightness soft glow, aimed straight down (absolutely no uplight, FULL cut off uplight and glare shields on the street lights). Then they could leave every light on and not even need to turn off every alternate light or switch them all off as some councils are doing. I would then feel a LOT happier, but I wonder how much real dfference it would make to the brightness of my night sky?

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

Edited by Live_Steam_Mad (10/25/13 03:15 PM)


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Live_Steam_Mad
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Reged: 07/24/07

Loc: Moss Bank, St.Helens, England
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6157683 - 10/25/13 03:31 PM

Quote:

The one lucky stroke I have is that our appartment complex has a huge wall built of some kind of thick plastic or something that is designed to block out the road noises (which it accomplishes quite well) I don't think it does anything for the sky mag, but it blocks out many of the immediate area street lights.

I'm almost certain I can't see mag 4 stars when the moon is out here. I'm now second guessing myself, but when there was no moon I believe I made out a mag 4 constellation, well anyway I haven't been able to see it at all since the moon is over the horizon now, not even a single star from it.




I am very interested and curious to hear from you as to whether you can see magnitude 3.8,3.9,4.0, 4.1, 4.2 or 4.3 stars from your location at all, at about 45 degrees or more altitude on a clear nearly moonless night with good transparency?

I use Skymap Pro 9 or 11 free demo, it's a simple but VERY handy and usable and intuitive planetarium program, to see what brightness certain stars are (make sure not to use variable stars if you can!) so I can do the test.

I pick fainter stars in Ursa Minor, Lyra, Draco, Pegasus, etc. since then I am familiar with the constellation shape and can see where a faint star is supposed to be. Use AVERTED VISION to detect the faintest ones, aim your eyes to the right of the faint star by about 1,2 or 3 degrees and then you will see much fainter things than by direct vision. Make sure you have been "dark" adapted by at least 15 to 20 minutes with NO direct lights shining into your eyes from anywhere.

Then finally when you have seen which is the faintest one you can see, do the same test but now pick stars overhead or close to it. That last part is one I need to do soon.

I'd be interested to hear what your results are. So far I got mag. 4.36 with a 75 per cent phase, shielded moon which was 45 degrees up, for stars 40 deg. up from my Northern horizon. I can't hardly begin to imagine what it's like from parts of Nevada or Galloway Forrest Park, Scotland (our darkest place here, even Llampeter Wales is brighter! and that's DARK) or Hawaii where you can see down to mag. 7 with the naked eye

Cheers,

Alistair G.

Edited by Live_Steam_Mad (10/25/13 03:39 PM)


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mak17
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Reged: 02/08/11

Loc: Central Florida
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Live_Steam_Mad]
      #6157703 - 10/25/13 03:46 PM

I live in bortle 7/8 but observe in bortle 4/3/2 only.

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AcesDJD
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Reged: 10/06/13

Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: mak17]
      #6159311 - 10/26/13 02:38 PM

Is this worksheet accurate? http://www.globeatnight.org/dsr/Dark_Skies_Rangers_Lessons/Constellation_at_Y...

According to it, with a half moon I have mag 5 skies. Don't quite buy that. Here's the strange part is that I can just barely make out the head of Orion and yet the sword is clearly visible. I would say 4 makes more sense, the sky is more dark gray than black tonight.

Thanks for the link I downloaded it. Two questions if you don't mind...How do you set your local time and what do you do when your trial period runs out?

Edit After an additional observation with orion moving away from the moon a bit I wouldn't say the head is so hard to see, but the sword still looks somewhat brighter to me. I caught his bow this time, something I've never caught before what mag is that?

Edited by AcesDJD (10/26/13 02:57 PM)


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Live_Steam_Mad
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Reged: 07/24/07

Loc: Moss Bank, St.Helens, England
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: AcesDJD]
      #6200189 - 11/17/13 03:46 PM

Quote:

According to it, with a half moon I have mag 5 skies. Don't quite buy that. Here's the strange part is that I can just barely make out the head of Orion and yet the sword is clearly visible. I would say 4 makes more sense, the sky is more dark gray than black tonight.

Thanks for the link I downloaded it. Two questions if you don't mind...How do you set your local time and what do you do when your trial period runs out?

Edit After an additional observation with orion moving away from the moon a bit I wouldn't say the head is so hard to see, but the sword still looks somewhat brighter to me. I caught his bow this time, something I've never caught before what mag is that?




If you are asking about SkyMap Pro, you don't need to set your time in the program for just the date and time setting, but you do have to make sure your PC has the correct time zone in Control Panel / Date & Time settings / Date & Time tab / Change Date & Time and/or Change Time Zone (GMT / UT for me here in England) if you are using e.g. Windows Vista like I am on this laptop, and I use the Internet Time tab and the Change Settings button and then Update Time to synchronise the PC with an Atomic clock.

In SkyMap Pro you click on the icon of the Earth (for your location and time zone setting) on the left, then use Google Earth and zoom in and find your Longitude and Latitude in degrees, minutes, and seconds (in Google Earth, choose Tools / Options then on the 3D View tab in the Show Lat/Long section choose Degrees, Minutes, Seconds) then put it carefully into SkyMap Pro, then make sure your time zone is correct in SMPro(which would be 540 minutes ahead of UT for South Korea / Seoul, and make sure Daylight Savings is ticked or not ticked as appropriate (for us in England, Daylight Savings is now OFF) then I put in 7 Celcius and 1013 mBar for pessure (cold, fairly high pressure i.e. clear) and I put in my height of 54 meters above Sea Level as I am 1/2 way up a fair sized hill and I took my height reading from Google Earth where it says elev. just between the lat/long and eye alt at the bottom of the screen.

Then choose OK (do NOT click on home) and then select File and Save Defaults. Now your time and location will automatically be correct every time you launch the program.

From here I can see Sigma Orionis, a star of mag. 3.77 is just below to the left side of Orion's belt, and you can see Iota Orionis mag 2.75 which is the star of Orion's Sword. But that part of the sky (South) always has an unpleasant mid orange glow to Orion, from where I am, which is unfortunate as I love Orion.

See if you can make out 29 Orionis mag 4.13, 2.5 degrees left of Rigel and 2/3 degree above Rigel approx. Then try 32 Orionis mag. 4.45, 2 degrees to the left of Gamma, and 1/2 degree below approx. I'll try and do the same next time it's clear with no moon and good transparency. I very much doubt you have a mag. 5 sky, if you do then I am very jealous LOL..the best I seem to do from here is about mag. 4.3 so far in the Northern sky.

I'd be interested to know if you can see those two.

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

Edited by Live_Steam_Mad (11/17/13 03:50 PM)


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Live_Steam_Mad
sage


Reged: 07/24/07

Loc: Moss Bank, St.Helens, England
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: Live_Steam_Mad]
      #6277346 - 12/28/13 02:26 PM

OK after a few nights, checking now and then with the Moon below the horizon, I see Tau Orionis fairly easily (mag. 3.59) about 3 degrees above and 1.5 degrees to the left of Rigel (1/6 of the way between Rigel and Delta Orionis, the right most star of the Orion's belt), and I can also see 29 Orionis (mag 4.13), 2.5 degrees left of Rigel and 2/3 degree above Rigel approx.

But that's about as faint as I can see in terms of stars in the lower part of Orion. Below mag 4.13 is impossible to see from here. 29 Orionis at mag. 4.13 needs averted vision and some experience to see it, and sometimes I can just hold it with direct vision but it's very difficult.

In the Northern sky with less LP I do better from here with mag 4.3 being fairly easy with averted vision and sometimes direct.

For these people who can see down to mag. 5.5 or 6, I cannot imagine what it's like to see that. Must be wonderful.

When I was about 13 years old, Orion rose over the East in what seemed like a fairly dark sky to me, it looked magnificent. Now in the East from here the LP is horribly worse. Something has definitely gone a LOT worse in St.Helens in the last 25 years in terms of Light Pollution.

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

Edited by Live_Steam_Mad (12/28/13 02:28 PM)


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scottk
sage


Reged: 08/29/09

Loc: Tennessee
Re: Which number on the scale best correlates with new [Re: obin robinson]
      #6277542 - 12/28/13 04:37 PM

Light pollution really is a horrible disgusting thing. I use my unmodified dslr to see things I can't see visually through my scopes. Even that gets quite annoying though, because after seeing the results some people get from setups just like mine from dark skies, it makes me wish I could get images like that.

I read a post from someone not long ago who complained about only being being able to take 7 or 8 minute exposures at iso 1600 because of light pollution.... BWWAAHAHAHAAHHAAA.

My histogram is well beyond one third from left at about 30 seconds.

On an exceptionally clear night, I can count maybe 40 or 50 stars from my back yard, but I try to look on the bright side - I can count at least 64 highway street lights.


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