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Equipment Discussions >> Reflectors

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apolloadama
member


Reged: 05/17/12

Loc: Sacramento, CA
Aperture fever, when does it end?
      #5470393 - 10/14/12 07:32 PM

When does aperture fever end? 15"? 22"? 30"? Empty bank account? Grave? Never?

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DavidC
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/24/05

Loc: Mesa, Arizona
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5470404 - 10/14/12 07:42 PM

It ends when you don't have any more money after paying for your house, utility bills, and all the other piddley other stuff you have to pay for every month. Saving 20.00 a month sounds do-able 'till you find a sale on ep's or any other astronomy related object.
David


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GlennLeDrew
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: DavidC]
      #5470424 - 10/14/12 07:58 PM

It *can* end when you realize there's lots to see and enjoy in our celestial backyard which doesn't require a monstrosity of a telescope.

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Old Rookie
sage


Reged: 09/05/08

Loc: North Central Ohio
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5470504 - 10/14/12 08:35 PM

It ends when you decide that climbing up and down a ladder, in the dark a couple hundred times a night, just isn't worth it.

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star drop
Snowed In
*****

Reged: 02/02/08

Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Old Rookie]
      #5470518 - 10/14/12 08:44 PM

Big, bigger, biggest!

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whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: star drop]
      #5470537 - 10/14/12 08:50 PM

i say keep going as big as you can until you cant no more!!! hahaha seeing objects is awesome but seeing more and more detail is even better!!! and if i had a 40" scope i would walk up and down that ladder as many times as need to get those picture quality views with my own eye!!!

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*skyguy*
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 12/31/08

Loc: Western New York
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5470552 - 10/14/12 08:58 PM

It ends when you are observing with your 26" F4.5 dob at the top of a 12' ladder with wind gusts of +20 MPH and temperature below 20 degrees F ... and the scope is shaking as bad as you are! The 26 is gone now and I'm very happy with my 18" dob for visual and 12" SCT for imaging (from the comfort of a heated family room). I've also gotten into wide-field binocular observing ... something the old 26 couldn't do!

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dsohunter
sage


Reged: 08/14/09

Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5470553 - 10/14/12 08:59 PM

For me, >15 minutes setup/tear down

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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5470555 - 10/14/12 09:00 PM

For me, it ended due to the logistical hassle factor. The largest telescope I can easily move, set up, store and view flat footed is a 12.5 incher. Less than that was too small, larger and the hassle was too much a bother for me to overcome.

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whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus
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Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5470571 - 10/14/12 09:10 PM

I did like my 12'' orion xti alot!! it was so much more easier to set up than my 16" now and i didnt need a step ladder darnet!!!!

When i get older though and move to the atacama desert ( dreams do come true ahahaha) i am going to build my own observatory that permanetly houses a 45" starstructure telescope hahaha and i am going to make the whole thing moterized so i can just plop my butt down in a custom chair at the eyepiece and push a buttom to move me and the scope around hahahaha


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5470574 - 10/14/12 09:12 PM

Quote:

It *can* end when you realize there's lots to see and enjoy in our celestial backyard which doesn't require a monstrosity of a telescope.






Personally I enjoy viewing our corner of the universe with telescopes of all sizes... small and big... I am OK climbing ladders and I am OK kneeling in the dirt. I appreciate the capabilities of both small and large telescopes and understand that what is most important is what I bring to the eyepiece...

So, here is a question to ponder: Exactly what is "Aperture fever?"

Not long ago I acquired a 25 inch Dob... There was no fever about it. I never really considered the possibility of owning something that big but after my wife and I purchased own dream hideaway with reasonably dark skies, 4 acres of land and a big garage, I realized I was in a situation that was well suited to owning a large telescope. I casually kept my eye open for a year or two.. One day I was looking at the Astromart ads and saw a 25 inch at a very reasonable price...

I think of aperture fever as a dissatisfaction with smaller scopes, a driven need for bigger and better... A 10 inch is not big enough, I need a 15 inch... My attitude is a 60mm is good, a 16 inch is good...

Jon


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tezster
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 07/14/09

Loc: Missisauga, Canada
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5470609 - 10/14/12 09:37 PM

Often times, hard limits which we don't have any direct control over dictates the maximum scope size one can own. It could be a set budget, or lack of space. So in that sense, circumstances -not personal desire- dictate the maximum scope size, so the choice becomes quite simple

Edited by tezster (10/14/12 09:38 PM)


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Jeff Porter
super member
*****

Reged: 09/03/10

Loc: Utah
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: tezster]
      #5470638 - 10/14/12 09:53 PM

A friend of mine told me that it does not matter how big your scope is, because you will always be looking at the faintest objects possible with your scope.

Hmmmmmm..... Maybe now I can see all five galaxies in Stephens Quintet now that I have...

-Jeff P


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george golitzin
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/24/06

Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jeff Porter]
      #5470720 - 10/14/12 10:52 PM

For me, it pretty much ends with my 18-inch, which is the largest scope I feel comfortable transporting. Only way I'd consider something bigger is if I had a permanent observatory in a dark location. The 18 shows so much detail on DSOs, I don't feel compelled to go bigger.

-geo


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mark cowan
Vendor (Veritas Optics)
*****

Reged: 06/03/05

Loc: salem, OR
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5470728 - 10/14/12 10:57 PM


Some might say never...

Best,
Mark


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Jason D
Postmaster
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Reged: 10/21/06

Loc: California
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5470746 - 10/14/12 11:10 PM

It ends after successful completion of AA classes

P.S. “AA” stands for "Aperture Anonymous"

“Hi, my name is John and I am Aperturolic”


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johnnyha
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jason D]
      #5470748 - 10/14/12 11:10 PM

"Hi John."

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GlennLeDrew
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5470816 - 10/14/12 11:59 PM

Many responses highlight external factors which impose limits, such as setup/teardown time, mass, rickety ladders, etc. But this doesn't necessarily address the *fever* itself, where the dissatisfaction with one's current aperture leads to the continued desire for bigger, even if impractical. A change in mindset is required to overcome this.

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ThreeD
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/23/08

Loc: Sacramento suburbs
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5470924 - 10/15/12 01:58 AM

But I don't think it always comes from a true dissatisfaction with what one currently has -- it may simply be a desire to see more.

I still think the XT8i I started with is great but to be honest most of my viewing is with my LB16. While some part of me would love to own a larger scope, I know it won't likely happen. I could go a bit larger and stay within the weight and logistics limits I have with the LB16 if I bought the right scope but it wouldn't be within the budget range that would please my wife and thus is a non-starter. I guess what I'm saying is I have the desire to see as much as I have the means to achieve. I enjoy what I have knowing that it is a much larger scope than most will ever have but also knowing that their are some objects that are out of reach. None of this means that I can't or don't enjoy the views through my 8".


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5471052 - 10/15/12 07:49 AM

Quote:

Many responses highlight external factors which impose limits, such as setup/teardown time, mass, rickety ladders, etc. But this doesn't necessarily address the *fever* itself, where the dissatisfaction with one's current aperture leads to the continued desire for bigger, even if impractical. A change in mindset is required to overcome this.

Quote:

But I don't think it always comes from a true dissatisfaction with what one currently has -- it may simply be a desire to see more...

I guess what I'm saying is I have the desire to see as much as I have the means to achieve. I enjoy what I have knowing that it is a much larger scope than most will ever have but also knowing that their are some objects that are out of reach. None of this means that I can't or don't enjoy the views through my 8".







Again, it comes down to the question of what is aperture fever?

I realize that the limitations on what I see are my own skills and not the particular telescope I am looking through. I think this is the mindset that Glenn is referring to. A "hero": J Reynolds Freeman knocked off the Hershel 400 with a 55mm Vixen refractor. I see what people like Don Pensack and David Knisely do with their scopes and Glenn does with his homemade binoculars... From my point of view, seeing more is about developing my skills and developing my skills means looking more...

In my mind, there is a distinction between the emotion driven dissatisfaction that I think of as aperture fever and a calm appreciation of the virtues of aperture, these are two different animals...

Jon


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maltydog
member


Reged: 09/13/12

Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5471074 - 10/15/12 08:11 AM

for me, it ends at 16 inch, unless i win the lottery and can have a permanent observatory with permanently mounted big boy scope.

the 16 (truss) is fairly quick and easy to setup by myself. i do have a small step stool (one step) needed for zenith viewing. i can see a lot with this scope. at this time i have no desire to go bigger. i use the wheel barrow handles and have a little ramp i roll it in and out of my suv.


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GOLGO13
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/05/05

Loc: St. Louis area
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5471077 - 10/15/12 08:15 AM

I think it really depends on one's situation. I find I'm very comfortable with my 10 inch dob. I don't want a scope that requires a ladder toward zenith...even a small one. Not that I won't look through a scope like this. I just don't want that for myself. A friend of mine had a 12.5 inch obsession which I felt was a really nice setup. I feel 12.5 F5 would probably be my ideal size scope. But I would certainly like to mooch off other folks with larger scopes.

I know I had some crazy good views through a 30 inch dob which didn't even have great coatings. My friend's 16 inch also was quite good. Premium optics can make a big difference. But, those are not for me in my current situation.

I have to admit though...I'm more than happy viewing with my 6 inch dob. I personally find 6 inches (reflector wise) to be the minimum aperture for observing DSOs. And I find 10+ is where things get really fun. Pair that with a small refractor and you are good to go.


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JayinUTModerator
I'm not Sleepy
*****

Reged: 09/19/08

Loc: Utah
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GOLGO13]
      #5471162 - 10/15/12 09:45 AM

I've found 14 to 15 is good for me unless something larger is in an observatory. For the field, I love a 14 and am anxious to get my new DobStuff structure. I look forward to pushing the scope and Zambuto mirror to see how much more detail and how faint I can go with what I have. I've spent my discretionary money from our budget and the focus is on saving so my wife and I can retire by 62 and 60. Thus my spending in the hobby is in line with that overall goal. For me, that is the key for curing aperture fever.

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RogerRZ
Whatta you lookin' at?
*****

Reged: 01/09/06

Loc: West Collette, NB, Canada
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: JayinUT]
      #5471176 - 10/15/12 09:55 AM

For me, it ends when I do an honest assessment of how long it would take for the setup/takedown of a large dob to get old, and I give my head a good shake. I'm lazy.

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whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: RogerRZ]
      #5471219 - 10/15/12 10:24 AM

You could just replace apeture fever with dark sky fever!!!

If it wasnt for light pollution i do not think apeture fever would be much of a problem to some as it is these days. If i could walk out my back door every night to see the milky way and a a sky full of stars , i would still have my 4" starter refractor!!!!


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5471323 - 10/15/12 11:18 AM

In the beginning, we had 60mm refractors on lightweight tripods, because that was all that was available, and we got our first "shakey" view of the heavens above. Later on, we expanded to bigger, faster, monster scopes and observatories'. Late in life, we are back to small refractors on light mounts, as that is all we can physically manage and can't drive any longer...The difference: Later in life, we're gonna know HOW to make that small scope perform to its utmost.

When we are younger, we want to "see it all", later in life, we will have our favorite friends that we always spend a little time with (Mine is the Lagoon Nebula); and still find time to visit "new friends".


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5471335 - 10/15/12 11:22 AM

Quote:

I did like my 12'' orion xti alot!! it was so much more easier to set up than my 16" now and i didnt need a step ladder darnet!!!!

When i get older though and move to the atacama desert ( dreams do come true ahahaha) i am going to build my own observatory that permanetly houses a 45" starstructure telescope hahaha and i am going to make the whole thing moterized so i can just plop my butt down in a custom chair at the eyepiece and push a buttom to move me and the scope around hahahaha




We are the borgscope, you will be assimillated...Resistence is Futile


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Photoner
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/06/06

Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GOLGO13]
      #5471352 - 10/15/12 11:31 AM

4" APO (TV102)

8" SCT (C8 Edge HD)

12.5" DOB (Obsession 12.5)

Have to say I'm done...18" components too heavy & cumbersome.


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jgraham
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/02/04

Loc: Miami Valley Astronomical Soci...
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Photoner]
      #5471652 - 10/15/12 02:05 PM

For me it ground to a halt at 16.5", whish is about as large as I want to set up. Maybe if I had an observatory and a wealthy relative who has lived a full life and is in poor health I could ponder larger. In the mean time I've extended my light grasp by using my cameras to observe with. I discovered my first night out with my shiny new CCD camera (a dinky little Meade DSI) that I could easily see more with my 4.5" StarBlast on a marginal DS-2000 mount than I could with my 16.5". Since then my imaging and visual gear has gotten along pretty well.

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TechPan6415
sage
*****

Reged: 07/29/12

Loc: Aspen, Co
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5471663 - 10/15/12 02:16 PM

That's easy to answer, the fever never has to start if you pick the right scope out of the gate. For me it is the 16" I have because it is still light enough, short enough at the zenith, compact enough to fit in a trunk, big enough to gobble the light and priced right.

I would love to have a 24"-30" in a dome when I get older and want to retire in my last home, but I don't really need it. I have darker skies than 99% of those on here and plenty of aperture to start with. To me, where I live will always be 1000x more important than what I do or do not own.


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Gastrol
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/04/11

Loc: los angeles
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5471703 - 10/15/12 02:38 PM

One reason why I never look though scopes bigger than mine at star parties. I'm always happy with what I've got.
Just this last Sat night up at Mt Pinos I was surrounded by 6 and 8 foot stepladders everywhere. Tempting, but I was faithful to my 12" dob. I kept my feet on the ground the entire night.


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AlBoning
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/06/11

Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Photoner]
      #5471713 - 10/15/12 02:44 PM

When I think of Aperture Fever I am reminded of George Ellery Hale who apparently found a 40" refractor insufficient to cure the "Fever," and it would seem equally ineffective a 60" reflector, and died before seeing the completion of a 100" reflector. (Someone surely knows this story better than I.)

So I'm inclined to think that Aperture Fever comes to an end while one's largest is on order and ends up not as a telescope but as a monument emblazoned with a brass plaque reading, "Beloved Astronomer."

I like to delude myself by assuming people are well motivated and when it comes to Astronomy that one is motivated to acquire aperture because of a desire for light grasp and resolution. However, it seems humans are more often driven by baser motives that, in this instance, might be more accurately described as ...

Aperture Envy, Aperture Embarrassment (I resemble this remark), or Aperture Competition.

I have to wonder how many, happy with their 130 mm f/5, went to their first star party only to find themselves dwarfed by an 8" XT on one side and a 12" LightBridge on the other; and before going to bed were in the throes of the "Fever."


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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5471807 - 10/15/12 04:03 PM

Quote:

When i get older though and move to the atacama desert ( dreams do come true ahahaha) i am going to build my own observatory that permanetly houses a 45" starstructure telescope hahaha and i am going to make the whole thing moterized so i can just plop my butt down in a custom chair at the eyepiece and push a buttom to move me and the scope around hahahaha




Chase your dreams, and when you get this telescope, invite me over.


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Dick Jacobson
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/22/06

Loc: Plymouth, Minnesota, USA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: maltydog]
      #5471868 - 10/15/12 04:46 PM

I will never be satisfied with the size of my scope when looking at galaxies or other faint objects. You can be too rich or too thin, but you can never have too much light coming through your eyepiece unless you're looking at the Sun. (Maybe some day someone will go blind looking at Vega.) Practical difficulties may suppress the fever, but they do not cure it.

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JMW
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/11/07

Loc: Nevada
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Dick Jacobson]
      #5472058 - 10/15/12 06:29 PM

I am fortunate to figure out my limits without draining my bank account. I have hauled around our clubs 20 in F5 Obsession for 3 years. It is a joy to look through but the logistics of packing it up, having room in the car for much else and setting it up for viewing at a dark site has helped me gain wisdom without financial pain. We use the Obsession on a equatorial platform so it takes two people to move the base onto or off of the platform.

My next (last) dob will be between 16 to 18 inches, fast enough to be ladder free, include the Feathertouch SIPS, 10K encoders, Argo Navis and have a tailgate removable mirror so I can pick up the base without the mirror. I want to be able to pick it up and put it in the SUV or RV without ramps. I will skip the goto or tracking for the lower total weight. I want it small enough so I can fit my TEC 140 APO, DM6 and Planet tripod in the back of the same SUV. Currently I need to tow a trailer if I want to use both. Until then I will enjoy the outstanding views of a good 20 inch mirror even though I have to put up with some hassles.

If you live at a dark site with great horizons and can put up a roll away shelter, go as big as you want. If you have to travel to a dark site, consider well where you should to compromise.


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Mike Spooner
Vendor (mirrors)


Reged: 08/06/10

Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5472095 - 10/15/12 06:50 PM Attachment (23 downloads)

Quote:

When does aperture fever end? 15"? 22"? 30"? Empty bank account? Grave? Never?




Perhaps a "graphical" answer will help.


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FirstSight
Duke of Deneb
*****

Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Mike Spooner]
      #5472113 - 10/15/12 06:56 PM

Aperture fever ends for me when either of the following are true:
1) my feet can no longer stay on the ground at zenith; or
2) I cannot pay cash for the larger-aperture telescope without any reliance on credit.

There is an excellent, available (with a six to twelve month wait) solution to problem #1 (specifically, a 20" Starmaster f/3.3). Problem #2 is the sticking point, not sure I'll successfully solve it, but hey...I'm working on it.

Edited by FirstSight (10/15/12 09:55 PM)


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Achernar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: ThreeD]
      #5472191 - 10/15/12 07:51 PM

That was why I built my 15-inch, but at the same time having looked through much larger telescopes, I decided a 15 or 16-inch will probably be the largest telescope I'd want to lug around, set up and tear down. I am strong enough to lift 100 pounds and carry it, but I am middle aged and not getting any younger. I work on ladders all the time, and I don't want to use a ladder while stargazing. I have also fallen off a ladder, and the stars I saw were not the ones you want to see when you hit concrete, let alone the ground. I live in a cloudy and dank part of the nation too, there just isn't much benefit for me to go bigger unless my fortunes change and I can spend the rest of my years in a higher, drier and dark area where it would be worth considering a larger telescope. Even then, I have seen how a 10-inch at the Okie Tex Star Party can pull incredibly dim objects into view, and put my 15-inch to shame under the typical skies here. Aperture rules, but dark skies rule too. To go bigger for me is probably not worthwhile, even if I could afford to, and right now I cannot.

Taras


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mountain monk
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/06/09

Loc: Grand Teton National Park
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Achernar]
      #5472541 - 10/15/12 11:52 PM

"Aperture rules but dark skies rule too."

+1

Dark skies.

Jack


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Aperturefever
super member


Reged: 12/12/10

Loc: Lake Macquarie, Australia
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: mountain monk]
      #5472589 - 10/16/12 12:22 AM

Aperture fever?? Never heard of it ...

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drollere
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 02/02/10

Loc: sebastopol, california
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5472650 - 10/16/12 01:26 AM

Quote:

It *can* end when you realize there's lots to see and enjoy in our celestial backyard which doesn't require a monstrosity of a telescope.




bingo.

also, diminishing returns for your dollar and your backache.

at some point you realize that it's not that you can't get what you want. it's that you want something you can't have. you can't have hubble views and you can't see the spiral arms in more than a handful of nearby galaxies. you just can't.


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bilgebay
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: drollere]
      #5472674 - 10/16/12 02:01 AM

Couldn't say it better Bruce. This is the reason why I've started with imaging...it enables me to see the faintest objects even before stacking and processing the subs.

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rik ter horst
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5472691 - 10/16/12 03:02 AM

It's a matter of mindset maybe... Generally, the most pleasant and aesthetic (planetary!) images I had in my life were with very modest telescopes with 130, 200 and 250 mm diameter. My 400 mm is capable of showing me the finest details, however this happens only a few times a year due to the (sometimes terrible) climat here in the Netherlands. Sometimes people seem to forget what good small instruments can show. One of my personal challenges is trying to get the most out of an instrument, regardless its size, and it's fun to see that this happens more often with smaller telescopes than with large ones...
Although I'm able to capture finer detail with my 400 mm Dobson, imaging with my 130 mm Schmidt-Cassegrain can be at least equally satisfying!

Cheers,
Rik


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sopticals
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: rik ter horst]
      #5472717 - 10/16/12 03:55 AM

"The eyes of a man are never full".

Its human nature to want to see more,further,deeper. AF can be relentless,with the promise of more intoxicating LIVE views of the Cosmos.

Stephen.


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: sopticals]
      #5472738 - 10/16/12 04:43 AM

The grass is always greener on the other side. I can all too easily imagine the ultimate extension of this 'sickness.' A rabidly infected enthusiast desires to see details in, say, the edge-on galaxy NGC891, and so invests in a truly monstrous light bucket. But a naked eye view of our own galaxy puts such a view utterly into the shade. The telescopist has lost all sense of proportion in his desire to eke out detail in some enormously distant object, overlooking the lifetime-consuming structure presented to the smallest of instruments in our cosmic backyard.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5472954 - 10/16/12 09:45 AM

Quote:

The grass is always greener on the other side. I can all too easily imagine the ultimate extension of this 'sickness.' A rabidly infected enthusiast desires to see details in, say, the edge-on galaxy NGC891, and so invests in a truly monstrous light bucket. But a naked eye view of our own galaxy puts such a view utterly into the shade. The telescopist has lost all sense of proportion in his desire to eke out detail in some enormously distant object, overlooking the lifetime-consuming structure presented to the smallest of instruments in our cosmic backyard.




A few thoughts:

- Large telescopes are also effective viewing objects in our galaxy. My favorite example is M7... a pretty open cluster that seems well suited for a 3-4-5 inch refractor. But when I turn a large telescope towards M7, it suddenly shows quite a different side, there are things to be seen that are hidden there, a globular to resolve.... Omega Centauri is interesting in a 4 inch but in a 16 inch or 25 inch.. oh my, my... And I see nothing wrong with hunting down faint galaxies with a large scope if that is what you like to do... wandering around the Virgo cluster with a big scope at low powers, it's just plain fun... This is a hobby, we don't have to justify our pleasure.

- I consider aperture fever to be lusting after larger and larger telescopes when one hasn't really learned to properly use and appreciate what one currently has. In my view, the reason to purchase a larger scope is because one is satisfied with their current scope and wants more of the same rather than being dissatisfied and frustrated and feeling bigger will be satisfying.

Some nights I spend with my 60mm F/7 refractor.. I have fun... some nights I spend with a 4 inch and a much larger scope... I have fun then too.

- We all have different desires, different situations, different opportunities. As many have said, a 15-18 inch scope is a reasonable combination of capability and portability. It takes me about 10 minutes to setup my 16 inch, it fits in my car or mini-truck and doesn't take up a great deal of room. My 25 inch lives in a garage out where the skies are reasonably dark and clear, it can be ready to go in less than 10 minutes...

- Big telescopes are good, small telescopes are good, there is a place for both... Not everyone has a place but if one does, why not???

Jon Isaacs


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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5472967 - 10/16/12 09:56 AM

We will keep building bigger ones as long as they keep showing us more and more....it's our curiousity...it's in our nature.....

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omahaastro
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5473163 - 10/16/12 11:46 AM

I had the means, so I bought a second hand 30", and I'm glad I did, because I imagine each decade that passes, I'll be that much closer to not being able to handle such an instrument (hoping I'll have the means a little further down the road to move to a dark sky situated home and build a roll off roof observatory, where I can leave it setup).

My 18" is still my 'grab and go' scope. I think it's the ultimate aperture/portability balance. It's easier/quicker to move around and setup than my GEM mounted SCT.


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amicus sidera
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: omahaastro]
      #5473493 - 10/16/12 03:54 PM

As long as one can afford (and house, if necessary) an instrument of any given aperture, the pursuit of a large instrument is a fairly harmless pastime... as long as the means are at hand, satisfying one's desire for something as edifying as a large telescope is an innocent matter.

However, problems arise when the large instrument is not bought so much for aesthetic or edificational purposes, but for the inflating of one's sense of self. To those with damaged egos, and whose self-worth requires constant reinforcement, the large-aperture telescope (or for that matter, the smaller yet absurdly-expensive refractor) fills the role that a Maserati, mansion and/or trophy wife might play for others. In purchasing what might be considered extravagant or Veblen goods, the buyer perceives that he has raised himself in the eyes of his peers - whether they be Wall Street bankers or the local astronomy club - and hence receives his "payoff" in the form of peer approval, audulation and increase in rank among his fellows. If the telescope in question has a waiting list one must endure prior to obtaining one, so much the better for the ego when it finally arrives.

"Fevers" come in many and varied guises, and it's useful to be able to separate those which are caused by a passionate pursuit of knowledge and aesthetic tastes from those fueled by lesser motives.


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jeff heck
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5473550 - 10/16/12 04:33 PM

Fever implies a sickness, while aquiring a larger telescope is not. Seek out and pursue your passions while you can, plus a little cowbell can't hurt.

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auriga
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5474285 - 10/17/12 12:20 AM

Jon,
I agree with you in that each type of scope has its merits and is enjoyable but I have such a strong preference for one of my scopes that I don't use the others anymore.

For me, the limit on aperture madness is set by several factors:

1. How easy is it for me to transport a scope of a given size?

2. Can I still see all objects, even at the zenith, sitting down?

3. Does the contemplated added aperture significantly improve my views over what I have now?

My 16"f/4 jpastrocraft gives me much more satisfying views than my 11" f/4.5 did, even though the latter gave great views, and the 16 can be used for all objects while seated, as could the 11".

I think that a 22" f/3 would give even more satisfying views, and could be used sitting down, but the components are too heavy for me to transport.

I find that at home and for dark skies, the 16 has completely replaced the 11, which is no longer used at all. My wife's fine 10" f/6 by Mark Wagner, with its excellent folding base, is never used at all either. The 16 is that good. And since it has wheels in the right place it is easier to wheel in and out of my garage. A key feature for transport is that my 16 has an easily removable mirror, which makes makes moving the mirror box much easier.

This is different from your own experience, I gather, since you enjoy using a variety of apertures.

Like you, I enjoy wide field observing but I use the Nagler 31 in the 16" for that. Or I use my 8.5x44 Swift Audubon widefield binoculars.

A few years ago I ordered a quite good 90 mm refractor for wide field viewing, but before it arrived I looked at NGC 4665 in Ophiuchus, a 4th mag cluster, in a friend's 90 mm refractor, and found it disappointingly dim, so I cancelled the order. Last weekend I viewed the Double Cluster through another friend's quite good 111mm refractor, and while the view was sharp and pretty, I much preferred the view through my 16, the stars were so much more brilliant, the view was dazzling.

My binocs, on the other hand, have such a huge field, 8 degrees, that they are a good supplement to the 16.

I understand your point that each scope and each aperture is best for certain objects, but I am too entranced with the 16 and the binoculars to use anything in between.

Bill Meyers


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Darenwh
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: auriga]
      #5474701 - 10/17/12 09:21 AM

Just remember, you know it's gone overboard when you need a lead vehicle and a follow vehicle along with the vehicle carrying the scope all with Wide Load signs attached.

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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5474709 - 10/17/12 09:28 AM

Sorry, the vehicle is being used to move the Space Shuttle currently....

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drollere
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: auriga]
      #5475111 - 10/17/12 01:32 PM

Quote:

I understand your point that each scope and each aperture is best for certain objects, but I am too entranced with the 16 and the binoculars to use anything in between.




i can certainly empathize with this point of view, although to me it strongly suggests that you are not a double star astronomer!

i think anyone with dire aperture fever needs to get a good binocular, lie on their back in the evening grass, and tour the summer milky way at culmination. here is a very large and active galaxy, close at hand, with intricacies of structure and dynamics on full display in a depth and detail that cannot be seen in any other galaxy at any visual aperture ... dozens of matched binary pairs throughout cygnus to cassiopeia, and if you have a steady grip you can even split 61 cygni; brilliant OB associations, gas clouds and freshly formed galactic clusters, clouds of sheets of stars.

as i and others have said, it's a matter of resetting perspective. it's possible to get so obsessed with the equipment that you no longer enjoy what you're looking at. that's when you need to look at yourself.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: auriga]
      #5475158 - 10/17/12 01:57 PM

Quote:

I understand your point that each scope and each aperture is best for certain objects, but I am too entranced with the 16 and the binoculars to use anything in between.

Bill Meyers




Bill:

It all comes down to personal choices, personal situations. Most nights when I am out at our place in the mountains, I do find myself using the 16 inch, it's capable and yet comfortable. At the same time, the 12.5 inch is plenty capable and more comfortable, some nights I just enjoy it. It is also capable of a significantly wider field of view, being F/4 rather than F/4.4. Some nights I drag out the 25 inch but that is really a 2 person night and it's real work.

In terms of binoculars versus a small higher quality refractor... I suspect that if I had a pair of binoculars with right angle eyepieces that provided the sort of perfection possible with an NP-101, I would prefer them. But studying an object with straight-through binoculars is just uncomfortable even with some sort of a mount. A 16 inch F/4 fitted with a Paracorr and a 31mm Nagler provides a 1.3 degree TFoV, a NP-101 with that same eyepiece provides a 4.5 degree field of view and the objects will be of very similar brightness if not size... Some are better in the small scope, most in the large scope.

There are a lot of ways to enjoy this hobby. The important things are finding out what you enjoy doing, finding out the equipment that is reasonable for doing what you like to do and then of course, just doing it.

Jon


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Galicapernistein
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5475412 - 10/17/12 04:33 PM

For me it ended at a star party where there were lots of other big scopes to look through. Seeing the Sombrero Galaxy in a 22" scope was nice, but it wasn't the knock out view I expected. It basically looked like a scaled up version of the view I get in my scope. The same with M81 and M82. Larger scopes show nebulas and globular clusters more dramatically, but for galaxies the improvement is more incremental. And since galaxies are what I most prefer to look at, I can't see myself giving up the convenience and ease of use of my 12" dob. Teasing out details from a galaxy in a 12" scope is just as much fun as doing it with a big dob, just a little more challenging, and easier on the back.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Galicapernistein]
      #5475572 - 10/17/12 05:54 PM

Quote:

Teasing out details from a galaxy in a 12" scope is just as much fun as doing it with a big dob, just a little more challenging, and easier on the back.




One difference is that a 22 inch goes about 1.3 magnitudes deeper, it's not so much about teasing details as seeing galaxies you would not see in a 12 inch scope. I don't look at it as a "12 inch or a 22 inch" but rather as a "12 inch and a 22 inch."

Jon


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ZRX-Steve
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5475627 - 10/17/12 06:17 PM

I started with an XT10i, then moved to Mallincam on an 8" F4 on a GEM, and then a 12" F4 on a GEM. I had a good opportunity to buy an Obsession 20" so I jumped on it for visual. I found that I use the Mallincam/scopes so much more than the Obsession. I passed the Obsession on to a much more deserving observer than I where it is well used and appreciated. So I think I found my aperature fever limit.

On the other hand, if I could afford a much larger Mallincam scope and mount, I'd probably do so.


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auriga
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: drollere]
      #5475929 - 10/17/12 09:39 PM

Agreed.
Our galaxy is so near that we sometimes forget to take advantage of it.

I am quite interested in the structure and beauty of our galaxy, and I have found two very good guides to it:

One is "Sky Vistas" a wonderful book by Craig Crossen with great photos by Gerald Rhemann, Published by Springer.

The other is "Where is M13?" A three dimensional digital guide our galaxy and its contents. This is a free download from the Internet thanks to the author, Bill Tschumy.

Bill Meyers


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auriga
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5475963 - 10/17/12 10:06 PM


I agree that straight through binoculars are hold to hold acceptably steady, particularly at higher magnifications than 8x.:
I tried a device called Sky Window, which allows you to sit at a table with the binoculars supported and pointed downward at a large mirror, This gives a very steady view of the sky.The problem for me is that with my vision, I get double images of stars under these circumstances, so I had to give up on Sky Window, which now sits unused on my shelf. I called the manufacturer to try to buy their higher quality mirror thinking that that might help the problem, but they didn't ever follow through on their promise to sell me one.

Actually, objects don't look of very similar brightness to me in a 4" as in a 16" The Double Cluster and the Pleiades for example seem to me much brighter in a 16 inch than in a 4 inch. The individual stars seem much brighter. It's similar to looking at Vega in a 16 inch, it looks much brighter to my eye than in a 4 inch.

Perhaps what you are saying here is meant to apply to extended objects?

I agree that it's different strokes of different folks, in amateur astronomy. No question about it, there is diversity here.

Bill


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mark cowan
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Galicapernistein]
      #5476151 - 10/18/12 12:36 AM

Quote:

Seeing the Sombrero Galaxy in a 22" scope was nice, but it wasn't the knock out view I expected.




Galaxies through "Hercules", Dan Bakken's 41.2" scope, the one time I've had the opportunity, were definitely a knockout view. Like having them in your living room. So aperture fever still cooks for me.

Best,
Mark


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: auriga]
      #5476273 - 10/18/12 02:32 AM

Quote:

Actually, objects don't look of very similar brightness to me in a 4" as in a 16" The Double Cluster and the Pleiades for example seem to me much brighter in a 16 inch than in a 4 inch. The individual stars seem much brighter. It's similar to looking at Vega in a 16 inch, it looks much brighter to my eye than in a 4 inch.

Perhaps what you are saying here is meant to apply to extended objects?




Bill:

You are right, I should have qualified that with "extended objects", stars are a different story, they are brighter in a large scope. But extended objects, nebulae, galaxies, planets... these are not.

There are some objects that require a wide field of view to be seen at their best but also, a scope like the NP-101 allows one to view the sky on a different scale, while a 4.5 degree TFoV is about 3.5x the diameter, it represents about 12x the area, it's just a different view, not so much objects as relationships between objects and structures that are generally not identified as objects because they do not fit in the field of view of many telescopes...

My sister is a geologist.... she says that if you take 100 geologists and show them a 300 foot granite wall with a single red rock in the middle, 99 of them will look at the red rock and ignore the granite.

Jon


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5476484 - 10/18/12 07:45 AM

Jon,
I'm the 'geologist' who looks at the red rock AND the granite wall.


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helpwanted
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5476562 - 10/18/12 09:05 AM

When does aperture fever end? When your back says so!
If your back starts to hurt just thinking about moving a big scope, it's time to downsize!


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Darenwh
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5476569 - 10/18/12 09:11 AM

I try not to take things like that for Granite....



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Darenwh
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: helpwanted]
      #5476573 - 10/18/12 09:14 AM

Quote:

When does aperture fever end? When your back says so!
If your back starts to hurt just thinking about moving a big scope, it's time to downsize!




In this day of automation, when we have so much technology available to us, why would you move something manually if you can create a mechanical or automated way to lift it. If you can afford that 50" scope you can likely afford the 42" scope with the mechanism to load it into and unload it from your vehicle. That way you don't have to do much heavy lifting (beyond todays modern eyepiece case) to view the wonders of the universe in a truly big scope.


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omahaastro
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5476633 - 10/18/12 10:07 AM

That's the race I'm in... earn enough of a retirement nest egg... so I can afford to live farther and farther from society, so I no longer have to even bother moving/setting my equipment... I can just flip the switch and open my ceiling to the mag 7+ skies.

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ZRX-Steve
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: omahaastro]
      #5476728 - 10/18/12 11:05 AM

Quote:

That's the race I'm in... earn enough of a retirement nest egg... so I can afford to live farther and farther from society, so I no longer have to even bother moving/setting my equipment... I can just flip the switch and open my ceiling to the mag 7+ skies.




You're in Omaha? Pffft, try the light dome of Phoenix @ 4 million! You'll appreciate Omaha.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5476735 - 10/18/12 11:07 AM

Quote:


In this day of automation, when we have so much technology available to us, why would you move something manually if you can create a mechanical or automated way to lift it. If you can afford that 50" scope you can likely afford the 42" scope with the mechanism to load it into and unload it from your vehicle. That way you don't have to do much heavy lifting (beyond todays modern eyepiece case) to view the wonders of the universe in a truly big scope.




First you have to have the vehicle that can handle a 50 inch scope. Then you have to want a 50 inch scope... I have neither and want neither. My Nissan Frontier mini-truck barely handles the 25 inch and that's ok with me, I have only moved it one time with no plans to move it again.

Jon


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omahaastro
sage


Reged: 08/30/06

Loc: Omaha, NE
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5476794 - 10/18/12 11:46 AM

Quote:

You're in Omaha? Pffft, try the light dome of Phoenix @ 4 million! You'll appreciate Omaha.




Oh I know... the rest of my family lives down there, so I'm well familiar with the situation (although there's something to be said for clear skies and warmth).

I'm looking forward to retiring to the Land of Enchantment.


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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: omahaastro]
      #5476837 - 10/18/12 12:14 PM

Quote:

That's the race I'm in... earn enough of a retirement nest egg... so I can afford to live farther and farther from society, so I no longer have to even bother moving/setting my equipment... I can just flip the switch and open my ceiling to the mag 7+ skies.




and then they tell you you're too old to be living out in the middle of nowhere like that.....doesn't matter, we're always either too young or too old....


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csa/montana
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5476928 - 10/18/12 01:09 PM

Quote:

When does aperture fever end? 15"? 22"? 30"? Empty bank account? Grave? Never?




Mine has ended with my AT 16". It just clears the walls of the observatory by about 6" or so. Plus, I'm absolutely thrilled with the views I get from it, so have no desire to ever go bigger.


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omahaastro
sage


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Loc: Omaha, NE
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5477005 - 10/18/12 01:42 PM

Quote:

and then they tell you you're too old to be living out in the middle of nowhere like that.....doesn't matter, we're always either too young or too old....




is that like, "You're going to get killed by a mountain lion, out there alone, like you observe.". Have their been any cases of amateur astronomers getting attacked by wildlife? I suppose there's a thread on here somewhere.


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MikeBOKC
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: omahaastro]
      #5477017 - 10/18/12 01:49 PM

Have been lots of those threads. Only confirmed attacks were by mosquito.

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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5477281 - 10/18/12 03:51 PM

Theres a few amateur astronomers missing in Florida that were last seen viewing in the Everglades...oddly enough, the gators are getting fat...coincidence?

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rgm40
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5493728 - 10/28/12 09:25 PM

Now with a nice 10 inch Dob, I find myself wishing more for darker skies than a larger scope. IMHO, a 10 or a 12.5 inch scope makes a nice all around compromise between portability and effectiveness on DSOs, especially if one has to travel to get to a dark site. In a different situation where one need not travel to get to a dark site, this theory AFAIAC would go out the window in favor of a larger scope.

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wirenut
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: rgm40]
      #5493750 - 10/28/12 09:35 PM

when you live at keck?

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Tom Clark
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5496445 - 10/30/12 04:18 PM Attachment (24 downloads)

Quote:

Theres a few amateur astronomers missing in Florida that were last seen viewing in the Everglades...oddly enough, the gators are getting fat...coincidence?




And some of those Florida amateurs got tired of the clouds and hazy skies and moved to the desert of New Mexico. For me aperture fever ends here…


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Sean Puett
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5496556 - 10/30/12 05:28 PM

My aperture fever, if I had it, ended once I bought my 12"solid tube dob. The black waterheater coupled with my 4"f5.4 refractor give me plenty to look at and enjoy. I get to look through bigger scope at star parties and that is nice but, I really enjoy what I have. Now if the sky would just be clear for once I could use said telescopes...

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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Tom Clark]
      #5496690 - 10/30/12 06:55 PM

Lived in New Mexico for many years. Had a small ranch outside of Edgewood, NM. The skies there were tremendous! Sadly, I wasn't into astronomy back then besides just going outside and looking up...but I did a lot of that.......New Mexico away from the cities probably have some of the best skies (and weather) in the world. I say, Go for it.....Nice pic, by the way....I hope you plan on doing some AP and posting it....

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laconicsax
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5496859 - 10/30/12 08:44 PM

It doesn't end...ever.

We all have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to what we own, but I doubt that anyone would decline an opportunity to look through a bigger scope.


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Asbytec
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: laconicsax]
      #5497053 - 10/30/12 11:02 PM

Had aperture fever most of my life. The fever finally broke. Two things ended it for me: retirement and satisfaction with the 150mm Mak.

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omahaastro
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5497656 - 10/31/12 12:06 PM

I'm actually afraid what retirement might bring me in terms of telescope fantasies... although they'll have to be 'static', as my back probably won't be able to handle much more of a mobile telescope.

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pstarr
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: omahaastro]
      #5497773 - 10/31/12 01:29 PM

Quote:

I'm actually afraid what retirement might bring me in terms of telescope fantasies... although they'll have to be 'static', as my back probably won't be able to handle much more of a mobile telescope.




Unfortunately, when you get old enough for retirement, you will be wishing for better eyes, not a bigger scope.


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tezster
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: omahaastro]
      #5497843 - 10/31/12 02:20 PM

Quote:

I'm actually afraid what retirement might bring me in terms of telescope fantasies... although they'll have to be 'static', as my back probably won't be able to handle much more of a mobile telescope.

Jeff Huston
Obsession 30" f/5 (#102)
Obsession 18" f/4.5 (#264)




Sooo.... a 30" Obsession is starting to seem a little inadequate to you?


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RAKing
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5497938 - 10/31/12 03:17 PM

Quote:

When does aperture fever end? 15"? 22"? 30"? Empty bank account? Grave? Never?




I do not think there is a cure, so aperture fever never ends. We just try to control it the best we can and that might be with a lack of money, time, health, or whatever.

I also think a lot of us use the "Two O'clock Rule" when considering a bigger scope. Anyone can set up a bigger scope at 8 PM -- but it's how you feel when you have to pack it up at 2 AM that often dictates how you feel about that scope.

I wish I could have a bigger scope, but even though I have the money I do not have the health to handle anything bigger than what I have right now. But I'll just keep saving and maybe someday.................

Cheers,

Ron


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Bill Weir
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: pstarr]
      #5498694 - 10/31/12 11:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm actually afraid what retirement might bring me in terms of telescope fantasies... although they'll have to be 'static', as my back probably won't be able to handle much more of a mobile telescope.




Unfortunately, when you get old enough for retirement, you will be wishing for better eyes, not a bigger scope.




Right, which is why I got my retirement scope a good 1/2 decade ahead of the proposed date. I work in health care and see so many people who don't do as well after retirement as they thought they would. I don't expect to be one of those people but then again who does?

When my wife insisted and forced me into buying the scope I really wanted ahead of schedule I only argued a little. I was planning on waiting until my severence package but decided to bury the cost into a reno loan. In a couple of months it will all be paid off so it's win-win. I also made the choice to get the scope in a focal length where at the zenith I only have to stand on my tippie-toes. This negates the need for those pesky ladders or step stools. This is of course as long as osteoporosis doesn't set in and I shrink.

So I'm in the camp where if you do get aperture fever get it reasonably early in the hobby (after you've gained a reasonable amount of observing skill) while you can still enjoy that aperture. I mention the gaining observing skill because I fully recognize aperture isn't everything.

Bill


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Carol L

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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5498827 - 11/01/12 01:20 AM

For me, aperture fever ended about 2 years ago. I'd used an 8" SCT for over a decade and wrung every photon out of it that was humanly possible so when i got the financial chance to increase my aperture, i figured 'what the heck' and decided to double it and go for the 16"LB - best thing i ever did. Would i ever get a larger scope? In all honesty, no. Even though the 16LB is on wheels, it's all i can physically handle but it makes me happy - can't ask for anything more than that.

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panhard
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Carol L]
      #5498832 - 11/01/12 01:25 AM

The fever stops when the body wears out or the wallet is empty and no hope of refilling it.

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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: panhard]
      #5499112 - 11/01/12 09:58 AM

The fever stops when you no longer have need of the toys...

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Bill Weir
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5499851 - 11/01/12 08:12 PM Attachment (20 downloads)

Quote:

The fever stops when you no longer have need of the toys...




So you mean when we're dead. Toys = Fun, so my reasoning is when I no longer need toys I guess I'm no longer having fun so I might as well be dead.

Right now I'm having so much fun with my toy.

Bill


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BigC
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5499867 - 11/01/12 08:27 PM

Quote:

You could just replace apeture fever with dark sky fever!!!

If it wasnt for light pollution i do not think apeture fever would be much of a problem to some as it is these days. If i could walk out my back door every night to see the milky way and a a sky full of stars , i would still have my 4" starter refractor!!!!



I believe that is why the old-timers were somewhat satisfied with their modest 3" refractors and 6" reflectors.A dark sky just lets you see so much.And no doubt the economics of what scope one can afford is another limit.


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fnowat
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Tom Clark]
      #5500264 - 11/02/12 12:41 AM

Out in the middle of no-where and NOT have those contrails stretching overhead!!

Quote:

Quote:

Theres a few amateur astronomers missing in Florida that were last seen viewing in the Everglades...oddly enough, the gators are getting fat...coincidence?




And some of those Florida amateurs got tired of the clouds and hazy skies and moved to the desert of New Mexico. For me aperture fever ends here…




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Mike Harvey
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: fnowat]
      #5500340 - 11/02/12 02:04 AM

It MIGHT end...or, at least, the symptoms may become manageable.
In my avatar is my 28" f/3.66 that I've had for over 7 years now!

Trust me when I tell you that this is a 'record' that anyone who knows me finds hard to believe. I moved up the aperture ladder, discarding smaller scopes for larger, at near warp speed!

But, 28" has been the "sweet spot" for me. Instead of more aperture, I just want DARKER SKIES!

Even at my dark-sky observing site (Chiefland Astronomy Village) the once jet-black skies are showing some gray.
Fifteen years ago, a 20" would show comparable views to the 28" today..

I can't afford the divorce that a move to New Mexico would include, so my hope is to just have the time off to take the 28" to darker skies.

In all fairness, I should also say that getting a Mallincam has probably helped reduce my "fever" the past few years. Using a high definition monitor, the deep sky views are "Hubble-esque"! In real-time (for all practical purposes) observing it shows images that simply can't be seen at the eyepiece of ANY telescope!

Come to Chiefland for the November new moon! There's a week-long star party on one of the observing fields. You'll find LOTS of aperture (including a 36"), many Mallincams, and a bunch of new friends who'll be happy to share scopes.

Mike


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omahaastro
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #5500374 - 11/02/12 03:41 AM

Quote:

Sooo.... a 30" Obsession is starting to seem a little inadequate to you?




Quote:

Unfortunately, when you get old enough for retirement, you will be wishing for better eyes, not a bigger scope.




How about a Ritchey-Chretien sitting atop a Paramount, relaying images via CCD to warm viewing room nearby.


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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: omahaastro]
      #5500553 - 11/02/12 08:45 AM

...and don't foget the remote control!

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jgraham
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5500656 - 11/02/12 10:18 AM

Heh, heh, I gotta tell you, a remote controller telescope can be nice, and at least a partial cure for aperture fever. My aperture fever has crested at 16.5", and has even dropped back a bit to 16". Scopes this big just get to be a handful to manage and my 16" LightBridge has hit a sweet spot (my 16.5" is the crown of my ATM days). However, I also have an itch to scratch on the imaging side of things and as an aside I also use my cameras to observe with in real-time. For this I control my cameras and telescopes from inside my house where it's comfy comfy and I can play with the real-time images on my computers all night. I can also reach really deep using small scopes. I can easily 'see' far more with a 4.5" f/4 Newtonian than I can with my 16.5". No contest, at all. However, the visual experience is decidedly different than the camera experience and I enjoy them both.

Have fun!


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: omahaastro]
      #5500657 - 11/02/12 10:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Sooo.... a 30" Obsession is starting to seem a little inadequate to you?




Quote:

Unfortunately, when you get old enough for retirement, you will be wishing for better eyes, not a bigger scope.




How about a Ritchey-Chretien sitting atop a Paramount, relaying images via CCD to warm viewing room nearby.




But then, why bother, why not just google "Hubble" and be done with it? Faster, cheaper and the images are better....

Jon


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Starman81
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5500705 - 11/02/12 11:01 AM

For me, maybe when seated observing is no longer possible. Bill Weir's f/3.3 20" looks great. I am thinking that would be the end of the aperture-fever road for me. For now, I am dreaming of an inexpensive 12" (read: Intelliscope or Skywatcher dob) scope as the next step up from my 8". IIRC, 8" to 12" will give me a 1 magnitude gain and then 12" to 20" will give me another magnitude gain. Being financially reealistic, I think a 16" Lightbridge is where I might max out.

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kfrederick
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Starman81]
      #5500720 - 11/02/12 11:12 AM

http://www.eso.org/sci/facilities/eelt/owl/ this might help

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jgraham
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Starman81]
      #5500724 - 11/02/12 11:14 AM

"But then, why bother, why not just google "Hubble" and be done with it? Faster, cheaper and the images are better...."

Ahhh, one thing that you learn real quick when you take your own images that the pictures that we're used to seeing have usually been processed beyond all recognition. Raw, unprocessed source images look a lot like the real thing and make the best darned star maps ever. Still, a camera can never capture the subtle beauty of the real thing. It's been such a joy to be able to move freely between the two worlds, imaging and visual, and how the two can drive and compliment each other. It has also tempered my aperture fever (to keep this on-topic) since my images show me exactly what to look for and where, so I get so much more out of the aperture that I have. This was a big factor in my decision to buy a LightBridge 16. I dearly love my biggo 16.5", but the LightBridge is just so comfortable to use I can relax and enjoy the view.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5500759 - 11/02/12 11:32 AM

Quote:

Ahhh, one thing that you learn real quick when you take your own images that the pictures that we're used to seeing have usually been processed beyond all recognition. Raw, unprocessed source images look a lot like the real thing and make the best darned star maps ever. Still, a camera can never capture the subtle beauty of the real thing.




I do some imaging... But it's never satisfying. When the evening is done, I have spent the evening with a telescope and a computer and not the night sky... Sitting in a warm room with a computer controlled telescope taking images... why bother?

In any event:

When Aperture Fever Ends: When one realizes there is plenty to see in any telescope, binocular or even with the naked eye.. When one realizes it is not what equipment you bring to the site but what you yourself bring as an individual, as an observer.

The magic, it's inside each of us... not in the telescope.

There are nights I spend with a 60mm F/7 refractor and there are night I spend with a 25 inch F/5 Dobsonian... Both are magical.

Jon


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omahaastro
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5501025 - 11/02/12 02:06 PM

Make no mistake... today visual astronomy is where it's all at for me. But, if there comes a time, when my eye's are becoming the weak link where my 'equipment' is concerned, I'll gladly turn to digital astronomy to continue to get my astronomy fix. And is DOES make a difference, when you're seeing the 'feed' come in first hand.

For me, aperture fever does end at 30" by the way. <gulp/>


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jgraham
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: omahaastro]
      #5501122 - 11/02/12 03:26 PM

Many, many years ago a friend of mine had a chance to use the 60" on Mt. Wilson during the wee hours of a cold clear morning. His descriptions of what he saw have kept me dreaming ever since. If I ever get a chance to use a scope of that caliber...

If I could only win the lottery!


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stratocaster
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5501661 - 11/02/12 10:10 PM

Quote:

Many, many years ago a friend of mine had a chance to use the 60" on Mt. Wilson during the wee hours of a cold clear morning. His descriptions of what he saw have kept me dreaming ever since.




Could you share those descriptions so we can dream also?


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jgraham
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: stratocaster]
      #5501734 - 11/02/12 10:51 PM

He said that the seeing and transparency was excellent. The view of Saturn was nothing short of incredible, like looking out of the window of a space ship. No ghostly detail in nebula, but wonderful wisps of smoke with beautiful, soft, pastel colors. No image can capture it. He actually had a couple of crude pictures of the Ring Nebula taken by holding a 35mm SLR up to the eyepiece. The eyepiece was a cobbled together affair of a focuser on a steel plate that mounted on the side of the scope in place of a spectrometer. They got the time on the scope because at the time the spectrometer was off of the scope for repairs.

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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5502617 - 11/03/12 04:20 PM

Quote:

When does aperture fever end? 15"? 22"? 30"? Empty bank account? Grave? Never?




In my opinion, it ends when observers spend more time discussing the nature of the objects they're looking at rather than seeing them just for their face value.


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sopticals
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5502943 - 11/03/12 08:29 PM

I think for me it may have ended. Started out with 7mm in 1944. Progressed to 30mm in 1960. Attained 180mm(7") in 1962. Long hiatus. Then 8" through to 12" 2008ish. 14" 2009 then 25" 2012. If I want to make the same jump in photon gathering as between the 14" and 25.2" my next step up would need to be to 45.4"(probably not going to happen).

The BIG downside of increased aperture is the DECREASE in size of FOV. For instance a 30"f5 dob has a FOV of 1/3 the width of that shown by a 10"f5 dob. So actual area of sky shown by the larger scope is only 1/9 (11%) of that shown by the smaller, so framing of objects of any size becomes a problem.

Stephen.(44deg.S).

Edited by sopticals (11/03/12 08:31 PM)


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sopticals
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: sopticals]
      #5507700 - 11/06/12 11:14 PM

Hope I havent killed this thread.

Stephen.(44deg.S).


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Pinbout
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: sopticals]
      #5507742 - 11/06/12 11:57 PM

I'm like a fish in a tank, I grow to the size of my environment.

I have a small house with a small car. So when I'm sitting in my basement looking at my mirror/rocker box I just put together for my 12.5" mirror, I'm saying to myself, "I don't think I want any bigger in this house."



I really like my ugly 8in, its really a nice size to throw around and its like a rat bike, trashcan art.



so I don't even think about what it can or can't show.


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Dennis_S253
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Pinbout]
      #5507812 - 11/07/12 01:18 AM

Very good question. I have been happy for years with my B&L 4" SCT. Finding all them faint fuzzy's has been a lot of fun. The scope is getting old and I realized I wasn't getting a good view of Jupiter and Saturn (a while back). SO, I just bought a new to me scope. A 6" Newt, First view of Jupiter on a not so good night was pretty nice. I always wanted a 8" newt like my dad had yrs ago, but who knows if that will ever happen. I think Aperture fever ends when you realize enough is enough. Sometimes I set here reading post that so and so cant find such and such with the 6 or 8" so they want to get a 12". Anyway, I should have been out viewing tonight but, politics took over tonight. Also, had 1 to many beers. Clear skies...tomorrow

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Starboat
member


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Loc: Texas
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Dennis_S253]
      #5513905 - 11/11/12 01:16 AM

Just remember one simple rule; never look through more aperture than you can afford.

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pstarr
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Starboat]
      #5514168 - 11/11/12 09:58 AM

Quote:

Just remember one simple rule; never look through more aperture than you can afford.




If you do, try lifting it up before you buy.


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aatt
sage


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Loc: CT
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: pstarr]
      #5514596 - 11/11/12 02:48 PM

I just got a 15" and it was a huge leap for me. Invariably I found the views not as amazing as I had thought they might be, but I am still quite happy with them.I can see that the desire to see ever more will continue to be there, but I am at my limit for $, storage space and mass. This scope will pop a vertebra or two if you don't take care. Now I simply need to learn to see better.What I have should make that job a lot easier!

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DOTrevino
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5523160 - 11/16/12 04:31 PM

How does 70 inches sounds to you?

Apparently, there is no cure. Local news story


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Starman1
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5523182 - 11/16/12 04:48 PM

Quote:

He said that the seeing and transparency was excellent. The view of Saturn was nothing short of incredible, like looking out of the window of a space ship. No ghostly detail in nebula, but wonderful wisps of smoke with beautiful, soft, pastel colors. No image can capture it. He actually had a couple of crude pictures of the Ring Nebula taken by holding a 35mm SLR up to the eyepiece. The eyepiece was a cobbled together affair of a focuser on a steel plate that mounted on the side of the scope in place of a spectrometer. They got the time on the scope because at the time the spectrometer was off of the scope for repairs.



I spent a night at the 60", looking at, primarily, objects better suited to smaller scopes with larger true fields of view. No one else wanted to look at the small distant galaxies I wanted to look at.
It didn't matter, because 1) the scope was poorly collimated, 2) the light pollution at mt. Wilson chopped off at least 2 magnitudes from what could be seen, such that a friend's 28" at a dark site outperformed the 60" by a good margin, 3) the extremely narrow field of view (10' max) ruled out 90% of the deep sky objects it would have been great to see in a 60", and 4) the 1900 lb mirror was not at thermal equilibrium because they make no attempt to air condition the scope to night time temperature during the day. Talk about thermal inertia!

Give me a good 12-20" scope under magnitude 22 skies any day. That 60" was VERY disappointing.


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Starman1
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: RAKing]
      #5523186 - 11/16/12 04:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

When does aperture fever end? 15"? 22"? 30"? Empty bank account? Grave? Never?




I do not think there is a cure, so aperture fever never ends. We just try to control it the best we can and that might be with a lack of money, time, health, or whatever.

I also think a lot of us use the "Two O'clock Rule" when considering a bigger scope. Anyone can set up a bigger scope at 8 PM -- but it's how you feel when you have to pack it up at 2 AM that often dictates how you feel about that scope.

I wish I could have a bigger scope, but even though I have the money I do not have the health to handle anything bigger than what I have right now. But I'll just keep saving and maybe someday.................

Cheers,

Ron



Why pack it up at 2am? Why not wait till sunrise and pack it up in the light? If you try to drive home at 2am, you'll probably fall asleep at the wheel and become a statistic. Better to view a couple more hours then sack out in the car/truck for an hour so you don't fall asleep on the way home. Safety first.


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Starman1
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5523191 - 11/16/12 04:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

When does aperture fever end? 15"? 22"? 30"? Empty bank account? Grave? Never?




In my opinion, it ends when observers spend more time discussing the nature of the objects they're looking at rather than seeing them just for their face value.




There are 2 sides to observing: Seeing, and knowing WHAT you're seeing. The first is a skill learned over a lot of years.
The second enhances the first and often prompts you to look at the object in a different way. Together, synergistically, they create a fuller, more complete, observation.
Aperture fever ends with a scope that's large enough to enable you to see what you want to see. Knowledge of what you are seeing is a process that never ends.


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Escher
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5523388 - 11/16/12 07:55 PM

I'll tell you on Sunday night if things go as planned - Got a line on the largest scope I will ever own - Meade 16 Starfinder... IF it pans out, and the weather holds - I'll be observing Sunday night from the POD.

This was an "on a whim" deal. I sold a bunch of EP's to get an imaging refractor... and then this popped up and I was like "WHy not?? I've never used a 16""... So Maybe it'll be up for sale again in a week, or maybe I'll fall in love and want to live in the POD!


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aatt
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: DOTrevino]
      #5523426 - 11/16/12 08:25 PM

70 inches sounds great if someone else moves and stores it!

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ThreeD
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: aatt]
      #5524064 - 11/17/12 10:15 AM

I think 70" is best moved once to a very dark location and stored there (with no assembly required). Preferably you also have living quarters close by so you are able to use it at every opportunity.

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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: aatt]
      #5524243 - 11/17/12 11:53 AM

Trick Question.....when you die.

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fnowat
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: aatt]
      #5524297 - 11/17/12 12:33 PM

12 Steps?

I remember an old Cheech and Chong movie where Stacy Keach ends up wearing a bed sheet and as his subordinates are tearing up some pizza pies... and Keach is told to 'go with it' and of course he gives into peer pressure and the influence of smoke. SO MAYBE WE CAN JUST "GO WITH IT" as long as nobody is hurt (including our finances are not 'hurt')?


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prestonrich
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: fnowat]
      #5524471 - 11/17/12 02:27 PM

Got lousy skies? Save your money. Aperture buys you nothing. Just sold my tricked out LB16 and now exclusively use by BIPH, C5 and Lunt solar equip. Its portable stuff too.

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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: prestonrich]
      #5524489 - 11/17/12 02:34 PM

"Got lousy skies? Save your money. Aperture buys you nothing."

That's what the Gas Filter is for.....Clear,dark skies.....


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jrbarnett
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5524502 - 11/17/12 02:45 PM

For some it ends the first time they fall off of a 9-foot ladder in the dark.

For others, it ends when they start imaging.

For still others, it ends when the scope will not fit in the house, shed or garage.

For some, though, it never ends.

- Jim


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George N
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5538115 - 11/25/12 12:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

When does aperture fever end? 15"? 22"? 30"? Empty bank account? Grave? Never?




....I also think a lot of us use the "Two O'clock Rule" when considering a bigger scope. Anyone can set up a bigger scope at 8 PM -- but it's how you feel when you have to pack it up at 2 AM that often dictates how you feel about that scope. .....
Ron



Why pack it up at 2am? Why not wait till sunrise and pack it up in the light? .....Safety first.




I agree with that one! In the 10 years I’ve owned a 20-inch Dob I’ve only taken it apart twice in the dark, both while at Cherry Springs park in PA. One time it clouded up around 2 AM and the weather radio said it would snow by dawn (which it did). I did drop the frosted up UTA, but it was unhurt.

The other time, on the 4th night of observing and sometime after 2 AM, cloud blew in and it started raining. Two friends and I (brain dead from 3.8 nights of observing) somehow got the 20 and my 5-inch APO in the back of my Tahoe…. only a little wet. We went into my friend’s RV to go to bed, but I wanted something in my truck, and came out to find a dark sky full of stars. We should have just covered the scopes for 20 minutes.

At home I leave my scopes set up for several days at a time, and always take them down in the morning, usually after breakfast. I've also left the 20 set up at a friend's house, and gone back the next day to get it.


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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: George N]
      #5538645 - 11/25/12 12:21 PM

It's why I like the 10". It tears down as quickly as it goes up, even in the dark.

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jgraham
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5538661 - 11/25/12 12:31 PM

That's another thing that I like about my LightBridge 16, it goes together and comes apart quickly and easily. I keep it outside in a small vertical garden shed under my patio cover. I can have it set up and running in just a few minutes and put away just as quickly. Very nice.

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omahaastro
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Loc: Omaha, NE
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5540531 - 11/26/12 03:34 PM

I need to do a little video showing how quickly I can roll out my 18" from the Honda Element and setup (and yes, tear down). It's a thing of beauty.

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JohnMurphyRN
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5540817 - 11/26/12 06:56 PM

My 17.5" goes from fully disassembled in the house charging to fully assembled outside and collimated in 9min. Dissassembly and return inside in about 3min. (timed it once based on posts on CN)

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astroRoy
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: JohnMurphyRN]
      #5540825 - 11/26/12 07:02 PM

The Mayans say it (and everything else) will end 21 December, 2012. You have 33 days from today.

Roy

Edited by astroRoy (11/27/12 09:33 AM)


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jgraham
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: astroRoy]
      #5540838 - 11/26/12 07:11 PM

So what you are saying is that it's okay to max-out our credit cards as long as we use overnight shipping. Cool. To maximize the time we have left we should also consider having everything shipped directly to our favorite dark sky observing site, that is of course after calling in sick for the next 4 weeks.

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Asbytec
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5541096 - 11/26/12 09:33 PM

So, if the world ends right before the Christmas rush, we gotta pay top dollar on credit. You know, I like it...

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starman876
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5542525 - 11/27/12 05:29 PM

for me it ended when I bought a 6" AP that blew away just about any reflector I have ever looked through

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nevy
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: starman876]
      #5542578 - 11/27/12 06:15 PM

Quote:

for me it ended when I bought a 6" AP that blew away just about any reflector I have ever looked through



Have you looked through a reflector with a zambuto mirror?

Edited by nevy (11/27/12 07:24 PM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: starman876]
      #5543340 - 11/28/12 07:07 AM

Quote:

for me it ended when I bought a 6" AP that blew away just about any reflector I have ever looked through




Given that a 0.5 arc-second double is well beyond the capabilities of a 6 inch scope, it won't be blowing away a certain "$240 on Astromart 10 inch GSO dob" when it comes to resolving close doubles.



Jon


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csrlice12
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5543399 - 11/28/12 08:30 AM

Yes, we use that blowing to cool down our mirrors, and that 6" AP as a finderscope.......

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Eric63
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Reged: 06/16/12

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5544519 - 11/28/12 08:46 PM

For me aperture fever ends with practicality. I find that I prefer grab and go astronomy. I like to get out and view for a few hours, and then pack it up and go to bed. This way I can get out more often. Unfortunately the views from my yard are horrible, but I can get to mag 5.0 or 5.5 skies with only a 10 minute drive. So portability and ease of set up is the deciding factor. Right now the most convenient large setup for me is my 150F5 Newt on an AZ4. Now I know many of you will say that your larger scope will fit in your car, but here is my other catch. I take my scope to the cottage on weekends where I have mag 6.5to 7.0 skies. I Travel with my wife and son in the car so the 150 scope is the largest that can come along for now. Hmmm…. A C8 could also work…ok, ok perhaps aperture fever will end at 8 inches

In short, what I lose in aperture, I make up with dark skies.

Eric


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Meadeball
sage


Reged: 10/22/12

Loc: Midlothian, Virginia
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Eric63]
      #5544563 - 11/28/12 09:13 PM

When you get old and fat, your thyroid goes to pot and that couch looks alot warmer and cozier than standing in the 25-degree front yard.

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pstarr
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Meadeball]
      #5544615 - 11/28/12 09:44 PM

Quote:

When you get old and fat, your thyroid goes to pot and that couch looks alot warmer and cozier than standing in the 25-degree front yard.




Been there, doing that.


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Atl
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: pstarr]
      #5544647 - 11/28/12 09:59 PM

My wife thought it ended with me when I bought a 12" dob two weeks ago...while I thought it was just starting...

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Eric63
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/16/12

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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Atl]
      #5544741 - 11/28/12 10:46 PM

I'm having enough trouble just explaining astronomy fever to my wife....

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Alvin Huey
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Starman81]
      #5544889 - 11/29/12 12:46 AM

I view with my friend's 48" scope once or twice a year for a week. Otherwise I use my 22" the most. Setup time is 10 minutes, including the table, etc.
Here scroll to bottom for the 48".

My 30" takes two people and 15-20 minutes, which is why I don't use it much. I'm working on a fast 28" scope that will be a one peron and 10 minute setup. That scope ill have a Kennedy mirror and a hybrid design of obsession UC and Albert Highe round mirror box.


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Alvin Huey
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: nevy]
      #5544892 - 11/29/12 12:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

for me it ended when I bought a 6" AP that blew away just about any reflector I have ever looked through



Have you looked through a reflector with a zambuto mirror?




Yeap... My 22" smoked my previously owned 8" triplet from TEC. Not even close. Another case was a gentleman who owned an AP180EDT looked through a 14.5" Starmaster with Zambuto glass. He was blown away. Both scopes were at over 1000x...looking at Jupiter and Saturn Not even close....


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Mark Costello
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: apolloadama]
      #5545149 - 11/29/12 09:16 AM

Quote:

When does aperture fever end? 15"? 22"? 30"? Empty bank account? Grave? Never?




For me it'll end where the backaches begin, when setup and teardown gets to be a real PITA.

I'll probably never own a telescope bigger than 12" and more likely my maximum aperture will top out at about 8-10". One consideration that sets this limit for me is that if I get a Dob, it'll be a solid tube version....


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Jitou
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Mark Costello]
      #5545206 - 11/29/12 10:01 AM

I believe that aperture fever ends exactly when you sell your bigger instrument and then search again for better ergonomics, better transportability, better cooling time, better optics, better wife and bank counselor acceptance factor ... however a delivery of a 12.5" Zambuto is expected second quarter next year !

Edited by Jitou (12/01/12 03:12 AM)


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panhard
It's All Good
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jitou]
      #5545326 - 11/29/12 11:02 AM

The cash has run out, so my fever has been cured.

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alancygnusx2
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Reged: 11/25/08

Loc: CA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: panhard]
      #5545716 - 11/29/12 03:28 PM

I certainly have been and am a victim of aperture fever. My fever is always fueled when I hear that objects like Hoag's ring and the components of Einstein's cross have been seen in Jimi's 48".

From the practical side, for a dark sky portable scope ( car, van, trailer), most people stop around 30". A very small number of people port a 40" range scope, but it certainly can be done, and I suspect with very careful planning, transport and set up can be done ergonomically. I am not aware of anyone porting a 50-60" scope around.

On a permanent observatory site with excellent skies, other than cost, the next major barrier for an amateur will be obtaining the mirror. I believe Mike Lockwood can make upto a 60" mirror. One could get an even larger mirror from LOMO or other source. I suppose theoretically the fever should end at 8 meters, as larger monolithic mirrors are not made, but then again, who wouldn't kill to look through the 30 meter telescope once its built if it were possible?

Hopefully we will get to hear some viewing reports from the 70" when it comes online.


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nevy
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: alancygnusx2]
      #5545893 - 11/29/12 05:39 PM

My fever will end when my 16" zambuto arrives.

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Slow Astronomer
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Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: nevy]
      #5545906 - 11/29/12 05:52 PM

My fever ended with the delivery of my 12" Sky Watcher dob a couple of years ago. The tube is 45 pounds and it tops 85 pounds with the base. It lives on a scope buggy so I can roll it in & out. Needless to say, with a bad back it doesn't travel much. But I love the views! And I refuse to get something larger that requires a ladder or even a step stool. I'll just fall off & get hurt. But I'm happy!

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Douglas Matulis
member


Reged: 08/05/10

Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Slow Astronomer]
      #5546946 - 11/30/12 10:35 AM

When one of these events occur:

1. your back tells you to stop
2. your wife tells you to stop
3. your bank tells you to stop

Doug


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B. Cook
professor emeritus
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Douglas Matulis]
      #5547427 - 11/30/12 03:46 PM

NEVER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: panhard]
      #5547497 - 11/30/12 04:42 PM

Nah, Herb. You're just in remission for a bit. When you win the next Powerball, the condition will flare up with a vengeance.

- Jim


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Achernar
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: nevy]
      #5547788 - 11/30/12 08:01 PM

For me, I think 15-inches is enough to keep aperture fever at bay. In my region of the country, milky skies limit my views most of the year. Only during the winter ane early spring months have I had very clear skies that allow me to locate very faint objects. I'm very happy with what I have now and will be happy with it far into the future.

Taras


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frito
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Achernar]
      #5548096 - 12/01/12 12:09 AM

i'm on the verge of acquiring an old 13.1 Coulter in a desperate attempt to curb my aperture fever without breaking the bank at the same time lol

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Bill Weir
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: frito]
      #5548150 - 12/01/12 01:12 AM

Those old Coulters can be heavy so it won't be the bank you need to worry about. It's something else that starts with ba.

Bill


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frito
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Bill Weir]
      #5548251 - 12/01/12 03:35 AM

yeah i'm aware of what i'm getting into with it size/weight wise. thats why i'm keeping the XT8 around for more spur of the moment drag the scope out and view type stuff. all in all i think it won't be a big deal though. from what i understand the 13.1's OTA is around 50-60 lbs. thats about what my XT8 is with the stand and i often carry it as a single unit so no big deal if thats the case.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: frito]
      #5548264 - 12/01/12 04:02 AM

Quote:

yeah i'm aware of what i'm getting into with it size/weight wise. thats why i'm keeping the XT8 around for more spur of the moment drag the scope out and view type stuff. all in all i think it won't be a big deal though. from what i understand the 13.1's OTA is around 50-60 lbs. thats about what my XT8 is with the stand and i often carry it as a single unit so no big deal if thats the case.




It might be 60 lbs if it's a red tube, if it is a Blue Tube, I believe the weight is about 85 lbs.

As far as "aperture fever", I think of aperture fever as the belief that a larger telescope will somehow result in a more satisfying experience. I enjoy viewing through telescopes of all sizes, there are interesting targets to view in all sizes of telescopes, a 25 inch will show objects and details that are well beyond the reach of an 80mm F/5 and an 80mm F/5 will provide views not possible with the 25 inch...

If one steps back a bit and thinks of a scope as a tool in the same way a photographer looks at a lens, that is as a possible choice for a particular object or situation, then I think using both small and large scopes for what they each do best can be equally enjoyable. A photographer with a fancy 1000mm ED lens does not use it for every shot...

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (12/01/12 04:23 AM)


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frito
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5548655 - 12/01/12 11:54 AM

yeah its a red tube.

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droid
rocketman
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Reged: 08/29/04

Loc: Conneaut, Ohio
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: frito]
      #5549902 - 12/02/12 07:56 AM

when your too old to move it???

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stevew
Now I've done it


Reged: 03/03/06

Loc: British Columbia Canada
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: frito]
      #5609403 - 01/06/13 10:54 PM

My aperture fever started around 1990 when a friend showed me what a 17.5 inch can do.
By 1994 I had my own 16 inch.
The 16 is certainly big enough to show me everything I have wanted to see.
Unfortunately I only get to a truly pristine dark sky for about 6 or 8 nights a year.
I would trade all of my telescopes for a good 10 inch and 365 nights under a pristine dark sky.

Steve


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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: stevew]
      #5609770 - 01/07/13 08:54 AM

It ends when you become part of the viewee rather than being the viewer.....

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dan_h
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/10/07

Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: stevew]
      #5609845 - 01/07/13 10:03 AM

Quote:

My aperture fever started around 1990 when a friend showed me what a 17.5 inch can do.
By 1994 I had my own 16 inch.
The 16 is certainly big enough to show me everything I have wanted to see.
Unfortunately I only get to a truly pristine dark sky for about 6 or 8 nights a year.
I would trade all of my telescopes for a good 10 inch and 365 nights under a pristine dark sky.

Steve




I think you have hit the nail on the head. Aperture fever ends when you realize that there is more to good observing than a bigger scope provides. If you spend 6 months under clouds with no hope of a clearing, it doesn't much matter how big your scope is.

I wouldn't need 365 nights, just some.

dan


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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: dan_h]
      #5609927 - 01/07/13 10:49 AM

Even just one would be nice for a change though......

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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Aperture fever, when does it end? new [Re: dan_h]
      #5609966 - 01/07/13 11:06 AM

Quote:


I think you have hit the nail on the head. Aperture fever ends when you realize that there is more to good observing than a bigger scope provides. If you spend 6 months under clouds with no hope of a clearing, it doesn't much matter how big your scope is.





If one does have dark skies that are normally clear nearby, having the large scope option is a nice touch. I looked up the climate of our little hideaway, it claimed it averages about 265 clear days/year. Mount Palomar which is about 50 miles to the north claims 300 clear nights/year.

To my mind, the important thing is not the size of the scope but the size of the observers spirit and curiosity. I have some pretty big scopes but I have some pretty tiny one's two and they all have something to offer.

In my mind, aperture fever is the result of believing the telescope rather than the observer is the most important factor. If one is frustrated with a 8 inch (or a 3 inch), eventually frustration will set with any scope. On the other hand, if one is satisfied with an 8 inch, (or 3 inch), then happiness is possible with any scope, large or small.

Jon


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