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Equipment Discussions >> Reflectors

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droid
rocketman
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Reged: 08/29/04

Loc: Conneaut, Ohio
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Dennis_S253]
      #5552030 - 12/03/12 01:07 PM

Quote:

maybe I should have stayed in the beginner forum, my 6" don't sound big enough for you.




Im either case a inch scope is plenty large, never owned a 6 inch refractor ,but had a deep space conquerer that blew my socks off. The double stars, galaxys, planets, the moon. Oh yeah


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5552041 - 12/03/12 01:18 PM

Quote:

Just think of the gasps (awe, astonishment, disbelief, who knows; they're refractor folk) when you mount that $8K refractor to the Newt/Dob as a finder scope.......

at least they can console themselves that at $8K, the coloring should be minimal...unlike us poor dob folks, whose idea of coloring involves paper and crayons........




I know this thread is mixed with both humorous and serious posts...

This is a serious post...

I own a refractor that cost someone about $4000 and I own a reflector that cost someone considerably more than $4000.

I use them side by side. Comparing them to each other would be like doing a comparison between a 1000cc MV Augusta motorcycle and a Peterbuilt... If you want to go 175mph, the MV Augusta is a good choice. If you want to haul 30 tons over the mountains, I would go with the Peterbuilt...

A formal comparison between the two is not really necessary to make this determination.

Jon


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Sean Cunneen
Let Me Think
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Reged: 08/01/07

Loc: Blue Island Illinois
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5553012 - 12/03/12 10:37 PM

Sometimes I come here and I'm like "Why are they all on ladders?" or "what the heck is collimation and why are there always 6 threads at once on it?"

The last thing I coated glass with was Budweiser...
and last but not least...

Did you here about the guy that mixed up his tent poles and his truss poles? It took him an hour to collimate his air mattress.


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Mike B
Starstruck
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Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Sean Cunneen]
      #5553067 - 12/03/12 11:10 PM



Quote:

It took him an hour to collimate his air mattress.



This is best left to professionals: the Mattress Police... airborn division.


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cheapersleeper
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 01/22/10

Loc: Sachse TX
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Mike B]
      #5553096 - 12/03/12 11:27 PM

Telrads wwere invented so that we can avoid touching refractors.

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///^**^\\\
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Reged: 12/25/10

Loc: Deep Dark Blackness of central...
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: cheapersleeper]
      #5554559 - 12/04/12 08:07 PM

Yup happened to me. So I figured "What what the heck I'll post something here and see if they can help me out."

They didn't seem too responsive to my looking for a 4" finderscope for my Dob.


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echoes1961
member


Reged: 09/14/12

Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Meadeball]
      #5554570 - 12/04/12 08:16 PM

Whats a ReeeFraCtoR??

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orion61

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Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5554619 - 12/04/12 08:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A far fairer argument would be a dollar for dollar scope comparison like an$8000 refractor versus and $8000 reflector.

Pete



30" vs 7"
that 10" off axis mask would still beat the refractor

That I'd like to See!!!!!!




What would the point be? They would be such different scopes that the result would be obvious from the outset.

Jon




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d.sireci51
Arachnoid
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Reged: 11/19/09

Loc: The Tholian Web [S. Wisconsin]
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: orion61]
      #5554785 - 12/04/12 10:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

A far fairer argument would be a dollar for dollar scope comparison like an$8000 refractor versus and $8000 reflector.

Pete



30" vs 7"
that 10" off axis mask would still beat the refractor

That I'd like to See!!!!!!




What would the point be? They would be such different scopes that the result would be obvious from the outset.

Jon







There wouldnt be any point. But those guys would sure try to find one to argue! I would figure its time to break out the Popcorn!!!!!


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auriga
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/02/06

Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: d.sireci51]
      #5556147 - 12/05/12 06:32 PM

Quote:

A far fairer argument would be a dollar for dollar scope comparison like an$8000 refractor versus and $8000 reflector.

Pete





That I'd like to See!!!!!!





Jon,
I have seen something like that. A friend with a supreb TEC 140mm f/7 Apo compared it to my 11" Dob side by side, on M13. The view was much brighter and more detailed, and equally contrasty, in the Dob.And it is stil better in my 16" Dob though I have not made a direct comparison to the TEC. The TEC 140 plus mount costs about the same as my 16" Dob and a few thousand more than my 11"Dob.

I don't go in much for direct comparisons, though, and I always compliment people on their scopes, I am glad if they enjoy what they have. But if they don't have a scope, I recommend a Dob of appropriate size.

On the other hand, if I wanted to see the entire Veil in one field of view, I would choose a small refractor with an OIII filter.

A small refractor could show M12 and M14 in the same field of view.
But a larger premium Dob gives a far more sastisfying image of each globular, in separate fields of view.

I think that in the desert or mountainous southwest, a small refractor will show a lot, but in average Midwest conditions, it is not too good for deep sky. I found that al friend's fine 90mm Apo showed much too faint an image of IC 4565 to suit me, so I canceled my order for a similar scope.

Many years ago I first saw Saturn through a small refractor, with the Junior Astronomy Club of New York's Hayden Planetarium. from a site in Sheep Meadow in Central Park. I was transfixed by the image and immediately hooked on amateur astronomy. The image was stunning.

Many years laster I looked at Saturn through a 3.5 inch Questar and I was surprised at how sharp the image was. Then, out of curiosity, I walked over the the club scope, a 14" reflector with a Wessling mirror. I was shocked at how much sharper the 14" was, the little Questar image seemed blurry by comparison.

I had a friend who was a fine maker of reflector optics, who called small refractors "toy telescopes." I am told that Albert Highe, a very innovative telescope designer, won't look through an aperture smaller than six inches. I am pretty sympathetic to these views, given my Midwestern skies.

I will say, though, that the 4.5 inch aperture of my Starblast has proven very good for grab and go views and for views of very widefield objects like the Perseus OB association.

But I think scopes, reflectors or refractors, with apertures less than about 3.5 inches will prove disappointing to most people in most observing situations.

But, chacun a son gout, everyone to this own taste and his own situation.

Bill

Edited by auriga (12/05/12 06:34 PM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: auriga]
      #5556979 - 12/06/12 07:28 AM

Quote:


But I think scopes, reflectors or refractors, with apertures less than about 3.5 inches will prove disappointing to most people in most observing situations.




For me, avoiding disappointment is a question of having reasonable expectations and sufficient understanding to choose the right scope for the task.

My most recent love affair is with a "lowly" 80mm F/5 iOptron achromat. When I finally figured out I could replace the plastic focuser with a 2 inch Crayford from my parts box, I was in love. Sure, it can't do some of the things that a large Newtonian can but the it is also very true that the large Newtonian can't do some of the things this little scope does so well. The 31mm Nagler provides a full 6 degree TFoV at 13x with a 6.2mm exit pupil. For those who only want to observe small objects from a list, not a good scope. For those who are interesting in seeing the sky beyond what the old masters saw with their narrow field eyepieces and long focal length scopes, it's a whole new world...

Last night I watched Ganymede's shadow transit Jupiter. It was near the edge and Jupiter was low on the horizon when it began but my 6 inch RV-6 was providing wonderful, high contrast views. On a whim I took out the 80mm F/5 and sure enough, I could see the shadow...

"Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do." John Wooden

Jon


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JimMo
I'd Rather Do It Myself


Reged: 01/08/07

Loc: Under the SE Michigan lightdom...
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5556995 - 12/06/12 07:44 AM

Quote:


Last night I watched Ganymede's shadow transit Jupiter. It was near the edge and Jupiter was low on the horizon when it began but my 6 inch RV-6 was providing wonderful, high contrast views. On a whim I took out the 80mm F/5 and sure enough, I could see the shadow...
Jon




I also looked at Jupiter last night with my TV85. Seeing was very good for my location and the shadow of Ganymede was distinct and inky black. I believe it was the best view of Jupiter I've had with this scope in my backyard.

Back OT and the original question: I just did.


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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: JimMo]
      #5557057 - 12/06/12 08:35 AM

I looked at Jupiter last night too. Just as it came up over the horizon in the East....but the cloud patrol quickly responded and saved me from a first light with my new refractor. But a few years from now, when a clear nite sneaks in.....i'll be ready.

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mark cowan
Vendor (Veritas Optics)
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Reged: 06/03/05

Loc: salem, OR
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: auriga]
      #5557522 - 12/06/12 01:10 PM

Quote:

I am told that Albert Highe, a very innovative telescope designer, won't look through an aperture smaller than six inches.




Ah, that explains the black tape over the finder scope objectives in his recent book.

Best,
Mark


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Jeff Morgan
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Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5557707 - 12/06/12 03:08 PM

Quote:


I know this thread is mixed with both humorous and serious posts...

This is a serious post...

I own a refractor that cost someone about $4000 and I own a reflector that cost someone considerably more than $4000.

I use them side by side. Comparing them to each other would be like doing a comparison between a 1000cc MV Augusta motorcycle and a Peterbuilt... If you want to go 175mph, the MV Augusta is a good choice. If you want to haul 30 tons over the mountains, I would go with the Peterbuilt...

A formal comparison between the two is not really necessary to make this determination.

Jon





With the current economic outlook, I'm not too excited about putting much new money into the hobby. So when I think about the money tied up in my refractor and GEM it occurs to me what an awesome 8" RFT I could make, starting with a Zambuto primary. I'd probably have money left over for an equatorial table. Optically it would offer wider field and aside from double stars it could probably do everything better and be a better grab-n-go.

But there is something about that refractor image and closed tube performance. I guess it's best to have a foot in both worlds.

For now.


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5558747 - 12/07/12 07:20 AM

Quote:




With the current economic outlook, I'm not too excited about putting much new money into the hobby. So when I think about the money tied up in my refractor and GEM it occurs to me what an awesome 8" RFT I could make, starting with a Zambuto primary. I'd probably have money left over for an equatorial table. Optically it would offer wider field and aside from double stars it could probably do everything better and be a better grab-n-go.




Jeff:

When you say the 8 inch RFT could provide a wider field of view and be more portable, in comparison to what?

In my comparison between the two scopes, though I made no mention of the exact scopes, in my mind, I was thinking of the NP-101 and my 25 inch. An 8 inch RFT might provide wider fields than some larger refractors but a fast 4 inch Petzval.

Jon


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Patrick
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/16/03

Loc: Franklin, Ohio
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5558902 - 12/07/12 09:30 AM

Quote:

Markarian's Chain, observed with my WO 72mm f/6 ED, April 2011. Baader Maxbright binoviewer, 21x - 53x, single eyepiece 67x and 84x, to get the faintest little buggers. Field is about 2.5° wide, as seen with my 25mm TS Kellners, at 21x.




You may have detected the galaxies in the chain, but I seriously doubt they looked like the photograph you posted.

Patrick


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jgraham
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Reged: 12/02/04

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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5559263 - 12/07/12 01:00 PM

Hmmmm, I dunno. I've built quite a few RFTs and I was surprised how well my 6" f/8 achro performs in this role. Without the shadow of the secondary to fool with I can easily max-out the exit pupil. Also, nutt'n cools faster than my achro and for a big scope it's surprisingly easy to setup and put away. Okay, my LightBridge 16 comes in a close second, but I keep it outdoors, so that's cheating.

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Mark Costello
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 03/08/05

Loc: Matthews, NC, USA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Patrick]
      #5559338 - 12/07/12 01:49 PM

Dunno, looks like a sketch to me....

I've been able to see and study some of the brighter galaxies (M31, M51, M63, M64, M81, M82, ... and once M33) with 4" and 5" achros. I'm going to need a good bit larger scope to see more and if/when I get one it'll work mostly or all with mirrors....


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Jeff Morgan
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Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5559455 - 12/07/12 02:58 PM

Quote:

When you say the 8 inch RFT could provide a wider field of view and be more portable, in comparison to what?




I have one of the old Star12 ED's, a 120 mm f/8.5 doublet. Focal length is just a bit over 1000 mm.

If I were to assemble a RFT, I would go with a 8" f/4.5 Newtonian. It would be better at wide fields by virtue of shorter focal length, given the same eyepiece. And at 900 mm focal length I could frame almost all of the larger "showpiece" DSO's.

The extra aperture would be agreeable, and the fast Newtonian is something I've not had on my equipment roster for almost ten years. There would be quite a lot of overlap in the ways I use them though, and I think about the efficiency of that when I plan my budget for the next year.


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