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Equipment Discussions >> Reflectors

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TFiebig
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Reged: 07/29/09

Loc: Gamma Quadrant, Sector 4
You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake?
      #5547661 - 11/30/12 06:44 PM



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Gastrol
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/04/11

Loc: los angeles
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: TFiebig]
      #5547674 - 11/30/12 06:50 PM

All the time. The words look similar and one's directly on top of the other.

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FirstSight
Duke of Deneb
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Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Gastrol]
      #5547691 - 11/30/12 07:00 PM

We go there not by mistake, but quite deliberately for discussions on how best to chose and use our casual grab n'go toys for the nights when it's not worthwhile bringing out our "serious" big-aperture reflectors.
*sniff*


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auriga
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/02/06

Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: TFiebig]
      #5547705 - 11/30/12 07:06 PM

There are always far more people logged in to the refractor forum. They seem to start with small refractors and gradually increase the size until they end up with three or four refractors, none of which is large enough to satisfy them for visual work. A few are affluent enough to get a seven or eight inch apo, and they are the envy of the others.

We on the reflector forum have the same longing for larger aperture but the difference is that we are at the same time well pleased with the aperture we do have since it is typically ten inches or more.

Bill


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ThreeD
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Reged: 12/23/08

Loc: Sacramento suburbs
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: TFiebig]
      #5547715 - 11/30/12 07:09 PM

Yup. Once in a while I click the wrong link and I go then quickly hit the back button...

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cliff mygatt
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 01/27/09

Loc: Kitsap County, WA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: ThreeD]
      #5547798 - 11/30/12 08:10 PM

I do go by accident but I do have 2 refractors!

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d.sireci51
Arachnoid
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Reged: 11/19/09

Loc: The Tholian Web [S. Wisconsin]
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: auriga]
      #5547873 - 11/30/12 08:59 PM

Quote:

There are always far more people logged in to the refractor forum. They seem to start with small refractors and gradually increase the size until they end up with three or four refractors, none of which is large enough to satisfy them for visual work. A few are affluent enough to get a seven or eight inch apo, and they are the envy of the others.

We on the reflector forum have the same longing for larger aperture but the difference is that we are at the same time well pleased with the aperture we do have since it is typically ten inches or more.

Bill




OH????????? I get it NOW!!!!!!!! Not to punt any phrases but is it: Size doesnt matter??? OR; Bigger is better???????


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ausastronomerModerator
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/30/03

Loc: Kiama NSW (Australia)
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: d.sireci51]
      #5547881 - 11/30/12 09:04 PM

Won't ever happen. The 4 refractors I own are all sitting on newtonians as finderscopes.

Cheers,


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Ed D
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Reged: 04/30/10

Loc: Sunny South Florida
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: ausastronomer]
      #5547918 - 11/30/12 09:30 PM

Guess which one I prefer!

<=====<<< (hint)

Ed D


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kfiscus
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Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: Albert Lea, MN, USA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Ed D]
      #5547975 - 11/30/12 10:20 PM

I've gone over there to cause trouble a couple of times.

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careysub
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Reged: 02/18/11

Loc: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: d.sireci51]
      #5547981 - 11/30/12 10:29 PM

To me, in the refractor world, smaller and shorter is better.

Reflectors are challenged in the wide-angle viewing world. You just can't fill an ES100 25mm field stop (43.6 mm IIRC) with an acceptably small secondary mirror on an F/4 450 mm FL scope. To get real wide angle you need to go with a refractor.

I started with these handy small binoviewing refractors ("binoculars" I believe they are called), going as large as an 80mm there. For single scopes I started with a large 102mm F/9.8 achromat ($200 at Costco right now) and am now moving back down to a 80mm F/5 (the Orion ST80) and am contemplating moving farther down to an even wider-angle build using a 70mm F/4.3 objective (formerly a Celestron SkyMaster binocular objective).

Someday I may follow Mr.Bill's 127mm f/5.5 Istar achromat bino-box build. Probably the biggest (and most expensive) refractor I would ever own.

For true apochromats though nothing beats the reflector.

Edited by careysub (12/01/12 12:20 AM)


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mark cowan
Vendor (Veritas Optics)
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Reged: 06/03/05

Loc: salem, OR
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: TFiebig]
      #5548018 - 11/30/12 11:04 PM

There's a Refractor forum?

Best,
Mark


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: mark cowan]
      #5548043 - 11/30/12 11:28 PM

I rarely go to the refractor forum by mistake though it happens, but I go there on purpose a great deal.

I appreciate both small scopes and large scopes and find that in general, refractors are the best small scopes and reflectors are the best large scopes. Telescopes are like camera lenses, it is important to pick the tool for the job. A pristine 4.5 degree TFoV just ain't gonna happen in a reflector... one is not going to resolve small globulars in a refractor.

Jon


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frito
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Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5548085 - 12/01/12 12:04 AM

haha i just did that twice in a row. the second time i was like ahh how did i do that again!!

Edited by frito (12/01/12 12:04 AM)


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george golitzin
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/24/06

Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: frito]
      #5548171 - 12/01/12 01:30 AM

Yes but I don't stay long.

-geo


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Meadeball
sage


Reged: 10/22/12

Loc: Midlothian, Virginia
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: george golitzin]
      #5548224 - 12/01/12 02:44 AM

Ooops! How did I get here? I was looking for telescopes that aren't made out of plywood and cardboard, and don't need to be painted each year when I seal the deck ...

Edited by Meadeball (12/01/12 02:45 AM)


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Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
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Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Meadeball]
      #5548293 - 12/01/12 04:58 AM

In the other forum, 6" is pretty big.

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Meadeball]
      #5548299 - 12/01/12 05:10 AM

Quote:

Ooops! How did I get here? I was looking for telescopes that aren't made out of plywood and cardboard, and don't need to be painted each year when I seal the deck ...




They're here, the scope in the photo, it's original and more than 30 years old.

But you're probably looking for pea-shooters and spit-wad straws... Best to head over to the refractor forum for those.



Jon



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Jeff Morgan
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Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: careysub]
      #5548429 - 12/01/12 08:54 AM

Quote:

To me, in the refractor world, smaller and shorter is better.





And it is galaxy-free


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Meadeball
sage


Reged: 10/22/12

Loc: Midlothian, Virginia
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5548454 - 12/01/12 09:14 AM

Jon, j/k of course. That's a beautiful scope.

Look at my signature; you'll see I swing both ways. And remember, you reflector guys get your guidance from leeeeetle refractors ...

Meade


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5548590 - 12/01/12 11:02 AM

Quote:

And it is galaxy-free




Nonsense!



Markarian's Chain, observed with my WO 72mm f/6 ED, April 2011. Baader Maxbright binoviewer, 21x - 53x, single eyepiece 67x and 84x, to get the faintest little buggers. Field is about 2.5° wide, as seen with my 25mm TS Kellners, at 21x.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Jim Romanski
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Reged: 01/02/05

Loc: Guilford, Connecticut
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: TFiebig]
      #5548628 - 12/01/12 11:38 AM

It's really weird there. They talk about taking their scopes out and seeing planetary detail and splitting the double double before having to wait for the scope to cool down or be collimated.

They even claim to be able to see M31 and the Pleiades within 4 degrees FOV. Like anybody can really see that much.


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rguasto
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 11/18/10

Loc: Long Island, NY
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5548663 - 12/01/12 12:00 PM

They're all just rationalizing aperture issues.

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Pinbout
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: nj
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5548665 - 12/01/12 12:01 PM

Quote:



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And it is galaxy-free


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Nonsense!






but it was still funny.


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Astrojensen
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Pinbout]
      #5548672 - 12/01/12 12:06 PM

Quote:

but it was still funny.




It was. It just wasn't true.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Jon Isaacs
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Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5548691 - 12/01/12 12:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

but it was still funny.




It was. It just wasn't true.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




No doubt about it... I think we are just trying to be as silly as the SRFs.

(SRF = Slobbering Refractor Freaks)

Jon


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Astrojensen
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Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5548723 - 12/01/12 12:36 PM

Quote:

I think we are just trying to be as silly as the SRFs.




We're not doing a very good job at it, are we?


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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howard929
Member
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Reged: 01/02/11

Loc: Low End of High Ground
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: TFiebig]
      #5548774 - 12/01/12 01:11 PM

Only twice by mistake and I got outta there both times as fast as I would falling in boiling water.

Though I did get loads of help and support there with a 60mm refractor I used to have. IMO they're a good group and why wouldn't they be.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5548779 - 12/01/12 01:15 PM Attachment (34 downloads)

Say Wha?

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careysub
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/18/11

Loc: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5549388 - 12/01/12 08:54 PM

Exactly! Viewing the Markarian Chain & etc. is a favorite of mine. Best galaxy concentration visible from Earth.

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Jeff Morgan
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Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5549630 - 12/02/12 12:04 AM

Quote:


No doubt about it... I think we are just trying to be as silly as the SRFs.

(SRF = Slobbering Refractor Freaks)

Jon




Exactly.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I own a 4.7" refractor. (And it's an Astro-Physics, but I try not to slobber.)


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azure1961p
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Meadeball]
      #5549714 - 12/02/12 01:16 AM

I like all the scope forums as all designs have their advantages though the refractor camp does from time to time bash other designs but it always smacks of envy to me in most cases. Some points are valid but I see a. little too much isolation of controllable circumstances like thermals or horrendous seeing making for these hollow arguments against reflectors and the like. A far fairer argument would be a dollar for dollar scope comparison like an$8000 refractor versus and $8000 reflector.

Pete


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Dick Jacobson
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/22/06

Loc: Plymouth, Minnesota, USA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: TFiebig]
      #5550103 - 12/02/12 10:32 AM

In 2007 I participated in a brief discussion on Astromart that went as follows:

PC: ...will compete against APO refrectors in color free high power views.

DJ: "refrector" - is this a new type of catadioptric scope, or a Japanese Newtonian? Sorry, I just couldn't resist. This reminds me of when I was searching Japanese patent records, trying to use the auto-translation, and got the error message: "Cannot transrate your request."

PC: It's just my Engrish.

By the way, a couple of years ago I built a periscope accessory for my Newtonian that contains a small refractor. I suppose you could call the resulting hybrid scope a "refrector".


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d.sireci51
Arachnoid
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Reged: 11/19/09

Loc: The Tholian Web [S. Wisconsin]
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5550200 - 12/02/12 11:44 AM

A far fairer argument would be a dollar for dollar scope comparison like an$8000 refractor versus and $8000 reflector.

Pete




That I'd like to See!!!!!!


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Mike B
Starstruck
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Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5550209 - 12/02/12 11:49 AM

Quote:

And it is galaxy-free




If i saw that in a 'fractor, i'd be tempted to clean the objective & try again... rule out the most plausible first before boasting of a sighting.


Quote:

You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake?



No, but i went to the binoculars forum by mistake TWICE ... does that count?

Quote:

And it's an Astro-Physics, but I try not to slobber.



In all seriousness, if i had an 4.7" AP 'fractor, i'd be tryin' hard myself... might still need a napkin.


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Pinbout
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: nj
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: d.sireci51]
      #5550482 - 12/02/12 02:45 PM

Daniel Mounsey did a comparison of his Ceravolo HD145 against a TEC140

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Dennis_S253
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/22/11

Loc: West Central Florida
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Pinbout]
      #5551333 - 12/03/12 12:31 AM

maybe I should have stayed in the beginner forum, my 6" don't sound big enough for you.

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Jon Isaacs
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Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: d.sireci51]
      #5551480 - 12/03/12 03:43 AM

Quote:

A far fairer argument would be a dollar for dollar scope comparison like an$8000 refractor versus and $8000 reflector.

Pete




That I'd like to See!!!!!!




What would the point be? They would be such different scopes that the result would be obvious from the outset.

Jon


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5551654 - 12/03/12 08:37 AM

Just think of the gasps (awe, astonishment, disbelief, who knows; they're refractor folk) when you mount that $8K refractor to the Newt/Dob as a finder scope.......

at least they can console themselves that at $8K, the coloring should be minimal...unlike us poor dob folks, whose idea of coloring involves paper and crayons........


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Mike B
Starstruck
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Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5551916 - 12/03/12 11:59 AM

Quote:

...unlike us poor dob folks, whose idea of coloring involves paper and crayons........




Hey! I deeply represent that remark!


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droid
rocketman
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Reged: 08/29/04

Loc: Conneaut, Ohio
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Dennis_S253]
      #5552030 - 12/03/12 01:07 PM

Quote:

maybe I should have stayed in the beginner forum, my 6" don't sound big enough for you.




Im either case a inch scope is plenty large, never owned a 6 inch refractor ,but had a deep space conquerer that blew my socks off. The double stars, galaxys, planets, the moon. Oh yeah


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5552041 - 12/03/12 01:18 PM

Quote:

Just think of the gasps (awe, astonishment, disbelief, who knows; they're refractor folk) when you mount that $8K refractor to the Newt/Dob as a finder scope.......

at least they can console themselves that at $8K, the coloring should be minimal...unlike us poor dob folks, whose idea of coloring involves paper and crayons........




I know this thread is mixed with both humorous and serious posts...

This is a serious post...

I own a refractor that cost someone about $4000 and I own a reflector that cost someone considerably more than $4000.

I use them side by side. Comparing them to each other would be like doing a comparison between a 1000cc MV Augusta motorcycle and a Peterbuilt... If you want to go 175mph, the MV Augusta is a good choice. If you want to haul 30 tons over the mountains, I would go with the Peterbuilt...

A formal comparison between the two is not really necessary to make this determination.

Jon


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Sean Cunneen
Let Me Think
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Reged: 08/01/07

Loc: Blue Island Illinois
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5553012 - 12/03/12 10:37 PM

Sometimes I come here and I'm like "Why are they all on ladders?" or "what the heck is collimation and why are there always 6 threads at once on it?"

The last thing I coated glass with was Budweiser...
and last but not least...

Did you here about the guy that mixed up his tent poles and his truss poles? It took him an hour to collimate his air mattress.


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Mike B
Starstruck
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Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Sean Cunneen]
      #5553067 - 12/03/12 11:10 PM



Quote:

It took him an hour to collimate his air mattress.



This is best left to professionals: the Mattress Police... airborn division.


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cheapersleeper
Post Laureate
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Reged: 01/22/10

Loc: Sachse TX
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Mike B]
      #5553096 - 12/03/12 11:27 PM

Telrads wwere invented so that we can avoid touching refractors.

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///^**^\\\
member


Reged: 12/25/10

Loc: Deep Dark Blackness of central...
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: cheapersleeper]
      #5554559 - 12/04/12 08:07 PM

Yup happened to me. So I figured "What what the heck I'll post something here and see if they can help me out."

They didn't seem too responsive to my looking for a 4" finderscope for my Dob.


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echoes1961
sage


Reged: 09/14/12

Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Meadeball]
      #5554570 - 12/04/12 08:16 PM

Whats a ReeeFraCtoR??

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orion61

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Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5554619 - 12/04/12 08:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A far fairer argument would be a dollar for dollar scope comparison like an$8000 refractor versus and $8000 reflector.

Pete



30" vs 7"
that 10" off axis mask would still beat the refractor

That I'd like to See!!!!!!




What would the point be? They would be such different scopes that the result would be obvious from the outset.

Jon




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d.sireci51
Arachnoid
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Reged: 11/19/09

Loc: The Tholian Web [S. Wisconsin]
Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: orion61]
      #5554785 - 12/04/12 10:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

A far fairer argument would be a dollar for dollar scope comparison like an$8000 refractor versus and $8000 reflector.

Pete



30" vs 7"
that 10" off axis mask would still beat the refractor

That I'd like to See!!!!!!




What would the point be? They would be such different scopes that the result would be obvious from the outset.

Jon







There wouldnt be any point. But those guys would sure try to find one to argue! I would figure its time to break out the Popcorn!!!!!


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auriga
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/02/06

Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: d.sireci51]
      #5556147 - 12/05/12 06:32 PM

Quote:

A far fairer argument would be a dollar for dollar scope comparison like an$8000 refractor versus and $8000 reflector.

Pete





That I'd like to See!!!!!!





Jon,
I have seen something like that. A friend with a supreb TEC 140mm f/7 Apo compared it to my 11" Dob side by side, on M13. The view was much brighter and more detailed, and equally contrasty, in the Dob.And it is stil better in my 16" Dob though I have not made a direct comparison to the TEC. The TEC 140 plus mount costs about the same as my 16" Dob and a few thousand more than my 11"Dob.

I don't go in much for direct comparisons, though, and I always compliment people on their scopes, I am glad if they enjoy what they have. But if they don't have a scope, I recommend a Dob of appropriate size.

On the other hand, if I wanted to see the entire Veil in one field of view, I would choose a small refractor with an OIII filter.

A small refractor could show M12 and M14 in the same field of view.
But a larger premium Dob gives a far more sastisfying image of each globular, in separate fields of view.

I think that in the desert or mountainous southwest, a small refractor will show a lot, but in average Midwest conditions, it is not too good for deep sky. I found that al friend's fine 90mm Apo showed much too faint an image of IC 4565 to suit me, so I canceled my order for a similar scope.

Many years ago I first saw Saturn through a small refractor, with the Junior Astronomy Club of New York's Hayden Planetarium. from a site in Sheep Meadow in Central Park. I was transfixed by the image and immediately hooked on amateur astronomy. The image was stunning.

Many years laster I looked at Saturn through a 3.5 inch Questar and I was surprised at how sharp the image was. Then, out of curiosity, I walked over the the club scope, a 14" reflector with a Wessling mirror. I was shocked at how much sharper the 14" was, the little Questar image seemed blurry by comparison.

I had a friend who was a fine maker of reflector optics, who called small refractors "toy telescopes." I am told that Albert Highe, a very innovative telescope designer, won't look through an aperture smaller than six inches. I am pretty sympathetic to these views, given my Midwestern skies.

I will say, though, that the 4.5 inch aperture of my Starblast has proven very good for grab and go views and for views of very widefield objects like the Perseus OB association.

But I think scopes, reflectors or refractors, with apertures less than about 3.5 inches will prove disappointing to most people in most observing situations.

But, chacun a son gout, everyone to this own taste and his own situation.

Bill

Edited by auriga (12/05/12 06:34 PM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: auriga]
      #5556979 - 12/06/12 07:28 AM

Quote:


But I think scopes, reflectors or refractors, with apertures less than about 3.5 inches will prove disappointing to most people in most observing situations.




For me, avoiding disappointment is a question of having reasonable expectations and sufficient understanding to choose the right scope for the task.

My most recent love affair is with a "lowly" 80mm F/5 iOptron achromat. When I finally figured out I could replace the plastic focuser with a 2 inch Crayford from my parts box, I was in love. Sure, it can't do some of the things that a large Newtonian can but the it is also very true that the large Newtonian can't do some of the things this little scope does so well. The 31mm Nagler provides a full 6 degree TFoV at 13x with a 6.2mm exit pupil. For those who only want to observe small objects from a list, not a good scope. For those who are interesting in seeing the sky beyond what the old masters saw with their narrow field eyepieces and long focal length scopes, it's a whole new world...

Last night I watched Ganymede's shadow transit Jupiter. It was near the edge and Jupiter was low on the horizon when it began but my 6 inch RV-6 was providing wonderful, high contrast views. On a whim I took out the 80mm F/5 and sure enough, I could see the shadow...

"Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do." John Wooden

Jon


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JimMo
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5556995 - 12/06/12 07:44 AM

Quote:


Last night I watched Ganymede's shadow transit Jupiter. It was near the edge and Jupiter was low on the horizon when it began but my 6 inch RV-6 was providing wonderful, high contrast views. On a whim I took out the 80mm F/5 and sure enough, I could see the shadow...
Jon




I also looked at Jupiter last night with my TV85. Seeing was very good for my location and the shadow of Ganymede was distinct and inky black. I believe it was the best view of Jupiter I've had with this scope in my backyard.

Back OT and the original question: I just did.


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csrlice12
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: JimMo]
      #5557057 - 12/06/12 08:35 AM

I looked at Jupiter last night too. Just as it came up over the horizon in the East....but the cloud patrol quickly responded and saved me from a first light with my new refractor. But a few years from now, when a clear nite sneaks in.....i'll be ready.

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mark cowan
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: auriga]
      #5557522 - 12/06/12 01:10 PM

Quote:

I am told that Albert Highe, a very innovative telescope designer, won't look through an aperture smaller than six inches.




Ah, that explains the black tape over the finder scope objectives in his recent book.

Best,
Mark


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5557707 - 12/06/12 03:08 PM

Quote:


I know this thread is mixed with both humorous and serious posts...

This is a serious post...

I own a refractor that cost someone about $4000 and I own a reflector that cost someone considerably more than $4000.

I use them side by side. Comparing them to each other would be like doing a comparison between a 1000cc MV Augusta motorcycle and a Peterbuilt... If you want to go 175mph, the MV Augusta is a good choice. If you want to haul 30 tons over the mountains, I would go with the Peterbuilt...

A formal comparison between the two is not really necessary to make this determination.

Jon





With the current economic outlook, I'm not too excited about putting much new money into the hobby. So when I think about the money tied up in my refractor and GEM it occurs to me what an awesome 8" RFT I could make, starting with a Zambuto primary. I'd probably have money left over for an equatorial table. Optically it would offer wider field and aside from double stars it could probably do everything better and be a better grab-n-go.

But there is something about that refractor image and closed tube performance. I guess it's best to have a foot in both worlds.

For now.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5558747 - 12/07/12 07:20 AM

Quote:




With the current economic outlook, I'm not too excited about putting much new money into the hobby. So when I think about the money tied up in my refractor and GEM it occurs to me what an awesome 8" RFT I could make, starting with a Zambuto primary. I'd probably have money left over for an equatorial table. Optically it would offer wider field and aside from double stars it could probably do everything better and be a better grab-n-go.




Jeff:

When you say the 8 inch RFT could provide a wider field of view and be more portable, in comparison to what?

In my comparison between the two scopes, though I made no mention of the exact scopes, in my mind, I was thinking of the NP-101 and my 25 inch. An 8 inch RFT might provide wider fields than some larger refractors but a fast 4 inch Petzval.

Jon


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Patrick
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5558902 - 12/07/12 09:30 AM

Quote:

Markarian's Chain, observed with my WO 72mm f/6 ED, April 2011. Baader Maxbright binoviewer, 21x - 53x, single eyepiece 67x and 84x, to get the faintest little buggers. Field is about 2.5° wide, as seen with my 25mm TS Kellners, at 21x.




You may have detected the galaxies in the chain, but I seriously doubt they looked like the photograph you posted.

Patrick


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jgraham
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5559263 - 12/07/12 01:00 PM

Hmmmm, I dunno. I've built quite a few RFTs and I was surprised how well my 6" f/8 achro performs in this role. Without the shadow of the secondary to fool with I can easily max-out the exit pupil. Also, nutt'n cools faster than my achro and for a big scope it's surprisingly easy to setup and put away. Okay, my LightBridge 16 comes in a close second, but I keep it outdoors, so that's cheating.

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Mark Costello
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Patrick]
      #5559338 - 12/07/12 01:49 PM

Dunno, looks like a sketch to me....

I've been able to see and study some of the brighter galaxies (M31, M51, M63, M64, M81, M82, ... and once M33) with 4" and 5" achros. I'm going to need a good bit larger scope to see more and if/when I get one it'll work mostly or all with mirrors....


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5559455 - 12/07/12 02:58 PM

Quote:

When you say the 8 inch RFT could provide a wider field of view and be more portable, in comparison to what?




I have one of the old Star12 ED's, a 120 mm f/8.5 doublet. Focal length is just a bit over 1000 mm.

If I were to assemble a RFT, I would go with a 8" f/4.5 Newtonian. It would be better at wide fields by virtue of shorter focal length, given the same eyepiece. And at 900 mm focal length I could frame almost all of the larger "showpiece" DSO's.

The extra aperture would be agreeable, and the fast Newtonian is something I've not had on my equipment roster for almost ten years. There would be quite a lot of overlap in the ways I use them though, and I think about the efficiency of that when I plan my budget for the next year.


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5559459 - 12/07/12 03:02 PM

Quote:

Hmmmm, I dunno. I've built quite a few RFTs and I was surprised how well my 6" f/8 achro performs in this role. Without the shadow of the secondary to fool with I can easily max-out the exit pupil. Also, nutt'n cools faster than my achro and for a big scope it's surprisingly easy to setup and put away. Okay, my LightBridge 16 comes in a close second, but I keep it outdoors, so that's cheating.




I used to have a 6" f/5 Jaegers and I found all of those things to be true. Some of the best views of star clouds in Cygnus I've ever had. But I also found that fast achros are best not pushed in magnification. And one still needs a tall mount. Not a deal killer, but a short Dob (with a quality mirror) bypasses those limitations.


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Deep13
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5559591 - 12/07/12 04:41 PM

Nope. On purpose.

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JMW
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Deep13]
      #5559623 - 12/07/12 05:11 PM

I read both forums and don't understand why people put down views through refractors or reflectors. I typically observer with an Obsession 20F5 setup next to a TEC 140 on a DM6. I like to go back in forth between the tight view of the 20F5 and the wider view of the TEC 140. Both scope types have advantages. I also have a C11 EdgeHD so I cover all the major scope types.

I only do this under the darkest skies otherwise I just set up the TEC140 and leave the 20F5 at home. Dark skies allow my TEC 140 to have more contrast on DSOs then the Obsession 20F5 shows at home. Dark skies make all scopes work better and it is the most effective way to get better views. I like to do public outreach with both scopes at a dark site. Most people appreciate the different perspective available when both scopes are set up. It is nice to show the neighboring objects in the wide field of the TEC 140 after they see the detailed but narrow view of the 20F5. I like showing them the complete Veil or North America nebula after showing them the detailed narrow view.

The Obsession 20F5 belongs to our astronomy club but I have been hauling it to events for the last 3 years. I am looking at buying a fast 16 - 18 inch dob that wouldn't need a ladder or a ramp to load in the car. I would feel safer not having to send the public up the ladder.

I like being able to bring two scopes without hauling a trailer behind my SUV. I may stick with 16 to 16.5 so I can grow old with the scope. I figure I will be able to look through the larger 20+ inch scopes when I go to summer multi-night regional star parties.

I know this thread is mostly a gentle dig but I think Cloudy Nights forums should be supportive of all kinds of astronomy.


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jgraham
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5559942 - 12/07/12 08:41 PM

Jeff; yep, that's an issue with fast achros. I was just so happy when I found how well my "slow" achro worked. At f/8 it works well over a huge range (I originally bought it for double star work). The mount is tall (an LXD75 with a pier extension) but it is very easy to carry outside. Another bonus of the f/8 is that it has so much back focus that I can use an articulated eyepiece (2 star diagonals in series) so that it is very comfortable to use in any position.

Cool beans.


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yonkrz
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5560010 - 12/07/12 09:42 PM

Just went and came back by mistake,long week.there really is some interesting things over on that side,if you stop and take a look.

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Prof M
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: yonkrz]
      #5561748 - 12/09/12 12:28 AM

I like reflactors the best!

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Prof M
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Prof M]
      #5561750 - 12/09/12 12:29 AM

Quote:

I like reflactors the best!



Or maybe it's refracalators.


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Mike B
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Prof M]
      #5561763 - 12/09/12 12:46 AM

Quote:

Or maybe it's refracalators.




Uh-ohhh... that would make a compound scope like an SCT a refracadioptric?

And for double-trouble, standard binoculars would be refracabiporroptic??


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csrlice12
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Mike B]
      #5562132 - 12/09/12 10:14 AM

What if it goes "meow"?

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auriga
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5568327 - 12/12/12 09:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:


But I think scopes, reflectors or refractors, with apertures less than about 3.5 inches will prove disappointing to most people in most observing situations.




For me, avoiding disappointment is a question of having reasonable expectations and sufficient understanding to choose the right scope for the task.

My most recent love affair is with a "lowly" 80mm F/5 iOptron achromat. When I finally figured out I could replace the plastic focuser with a 2 inch Crayford from my parts box, I was in love. Sure, it can't do some of the things that a large Newtonian can but the it is also very true that the large Newtonian can't do some of the things this little scope does so well. The 31mm Nagler provides a full 6 degree TFoV at 13x with a 6.2mm exit pupil. For those who only want to observe small objects from a list, not a good scope. For those who are interesting in seeing the sky beyond what the old masters saw with their narrow field eyepieces and long focal length scopes, it's a whole new world...

Last night I watched Ganymede's shadow transit Jupiter. It was near the edge and Jupiter was low on the horizon when it began but my 6 inch RV-6 was providing wonderful, high contrast views. On a whim I took out the 80mm F/5 and sure enough, I could see the shadow...

"Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do." John Wooden

Jon




Jon,
My concern is for beginners who buy refractors hoping they will see galaxies and globular clusters high magnification images of the planets.

There are two levels of disappointment founded perhaps on misrepresentaton by refractor marketers.

One is the boat of hundreds of power magnification on department store refractors. This turns a lot of people away from astronomy because of the disappointments.

The second is by manufacturers of decent quality, or high quality, refractors, who try to lead the beginner to think that a small refractor is a good first telescope. I think it is not, it is much too small and will lead to disappointment.

A third case is that of experienced amateurs like yourself, who already have large reflectors, with their limited fields of view, and want a small refractor as an additional scope for wide field views. This is the kind of person a refractor can help.

The first two cases are regrettable and it is about these that I am complaining.

All the best, I always enjoy your posts,
Bill


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: auriga]
      #5568733 - 12/13/12 06:58 AM

Quote:

Jon,
My concern is for beginners who buy refractors hoping they will see galaxies and globular clusters high magnification images of the planets.

There are two levels of disappointment founded perhaps on misrepresentaton by refractor marketers.

One is the boat of hundreds of power magnification on department store refractors. This turns a lot of people away from astronomy because of the disappointments.

The second is by manufacturers of decent quality, or high quality, refractors, who try to lead the beginner to think that a small refractor is a good first telescope. I think it is not, it is much too small and will lead to disappointment.

A third case is that of experienced amateurs like yourself, who already have large reflectors, with their limited fields of view, and want a small refractor as an additional scope for wide field views. This is the kind of person a refractor can help.

The first two cases are regrettable and it is about these that I am complaining.

All the best, I always enjoy your posts,
Bill




Bill:

Your points are good ones and certainly worthy of consideration. Nonetheless, I have come to believe that essentially any passable telescope can be a good first telescope for a first time observer. What counts is not the equipment but the observer.

I do think that some telescopes are better suited for most first time observers but I also think that what determines whether this hobby of ours becomes a lifelong pursuit or just a temporary, passing fancy is really what is heart and mind of the observer... If this hobby is going to fly for someone, that first view through a 60mm scope of Saturn, of Jupiter, of Orion, that needs to enough... One can have unreasonable expectations of any scope, wanting to see full color galaxies in a 10 inch scope... wanting to see photo perfect images of Jupiter.

The virtues that this hobby requires are not learned, they are personality traits... Patience and curiosity are probably the most important virtues... As observers, our victories are small ones, there are no trophies and accolades, just the satisfaction of the view...

Expectations, disappointment, yes manufacturers sometimes over promote what is possible but in the end, it all comes down to what one sees in the eyepiece and one can be equally disappointed or thrilled with either a 60mm refractor or a 16 inch Dob.

It's really not about the equipment... if it was about the equipment, I certainly would not be observing today. My first scope was about as poor as it gets, a worn out 60mm department store scope purchased for $5 at a garage sale. I was strapped to a worn out department store photo tripod with only one eyepiece.. no finder, wobbly and shaky. But when I stumbled across the Orion Nebula, that was it...

When I see someone take an interest in cycling and then give it up after a short while, I do not blame the bicycle, I just figure that the experience of riding a bicycle did not "do it" for them. If cycling is right for someone, it's gonna happen regardless of whether they are riding a $150 bike or a $1500 bike.

Jon


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nicknacknock
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5568757 - 12/13/12 07:23 AM

Being a refractor guy who is just about to get my first Dob, but having used a Dob a few times, both types of scopes are great for different purposes.

I loved the view of the Veil Nebula through my observing partner's 18" Obsession. There was texture to what I was seeing.

I loved equally the view through my Stellarvue, which with a Nagler 31 and O III filter, brought the entire Veil in the FOV of the telescope.

Different instruments with different strengths and weaknesses. An observer can choose to specialise in particular areas. I like DSO hence the incoming Dob.

But I am in love with my 3 and 4 inch refractors for their really wide field views and framing of targets (e.g. Galaxy NGC 253 and Globular NGC 288 in the same FOV). I also had beautiful views of the Double Cluster with the 21mm Ethos 3 days ago. Can't do that with the Dob.

But the Dob will allow me to see dark lanes in galaxies, drill down into planetary nebulae, chase faint fuzzies to the limit.

I could write all day regarding the benefits of each instrument. But my AT72ED was the little scope that did it and got me hooked.

Jon pinned it down that it's not about equipment, it's whether you catch the bug or not when you first observe something. For me it was the classical Saturn snag. One view and I melted...


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Mike B
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Re: You ever go to the Refractor forum by mistake? new [Re: nicknacknock]
      #5569464 - 12/13/12 03:29 PM

Quote:

The virtues that this hobby requires are not learned, they are personality traits... Patience and curiosity are probably the most important virtues... As observers, our victories are small ones, there are no trophies and accolades, just the satisfaction of the view...



I think this point is HUGE! Insightful & well stated, Jon.

Quote:

For me it was the classical Saturn snag.



Yup, i think the same for me. This as a ~12 year-old, with my first scope- a decent quality 60mm 'fractor! I'd even done my "homework" ... before the scope arrived, i'd looked up in reference material of the day images of the planets, and using the "350x" of the ad copy, had sketched what they'd look like once the scope had arrived & was trained on 'em! Imagine my "disappointment.

Yet in actuality, Saturn DID look amazing... albeit smaller than my "calculations" might've implied. Nonetheless, i was stoked... never did sight the outer two gas-giants with it. Jupiter, Saturn, Luna, and a handful of brighter DSO's kept the fire burning, until more aperture arrived later in my teens and twenties.

Whatever it was, tho, that this humble li'l 'fractor provided, it was a match for my specific temperament. Yet i can easily see in other folks i know, both young and old(er), where such a scope's offerings would fall flat.

So a 'fractor is not, typically, what i recommend to folks looking to start out in astronomy. What that might have to do with going to the 'fractor forum...


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