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Equipment Discussions >> Reflectors

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ckwastro
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/05

Loc: Tempe, AZ
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5652167 - 01/30/13 12:00 PM

Quote:

Stars are brighter, working at the limit, faint objects are doable in the 12.5 inch that I just couldn't see in the 10 inch. (emphasis mine) Greater magnifications are possible.
Jon Isaacs




Hi Jon,

This is what I meant by edge of seeing. Yes there are some things working at the limit that the 12.5 could pick up and the 10 could not, but it wasn't necessarily a heck of a lot in the grand scheme of things.

Perhaps the question of whether or not the upgrade is worth it would depend upon how much of our observing time would be used "at the limits". If one is pushing the scope to its maximum detection limits all night, every night, then yes it might be worth it. If one is looking at a variety of objects from bright to faint, and spending a smaller percentage of time observing at the edge of detection, then perhaps not. Either way, whether or not this "working at the limit" or "edge of seeing" - whatever we want to call it - is worth the upgrade is going to vary between individuals.

For me, if I were looking for a "new scope" I would certainly choose the 12.5 over the 10, but if I already had a 10", I would not upgrade to a 12.5, but rather look at moving up to at least a 16". For some that extra 2.5" might be worth the time and effort of selling the 10", probably at a loss, and the additional cost of acquiring a 12.5. For me, the differences would be too small to be worth it. YMMV.

Edited by ckwastro (01/30/13 12:03 PM)


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BigC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/29/10

Loc: SE Indiana
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5652262 - 01/30/13 12:52 PM

Quote:

I have 10" tuned dob using for binoviewing, so is worth to upgrade it with 12"" mirror?

Will be difference noticable, and how much?

I am not interest for 14" or larger mirrors because of weight, size....




If of equal quality ,then with a 12" you will pick up quite a few fainter objects that were just at the limit of the 10";that is my experience going from a Z10 to a Z12.

If they sold a Z14 I would get one!

If you are going for a custom scope then go right to the max of your physical limits because the bigger glass WILL gather more light.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5652268 - 01/30/13 12:55 PM

Quote:


Perhaps the question of whether or not the upgrade is worth it would depend upon how much of our observing time would be used "at the limits". If one is pushing the scope to its maximum detection limits all night, every night, then yes it might be worth it. If one is looking at a variety of objects from bright to faint, and spending a smaller percentage of time observing at the edge of detection, then perhaps not. Either way, whether or not this "working at the limit" or "edge of seeing" - whatever we want to call it - is worth the upgrade is going to vary between individuals.




A few thoughts:

It's not just when working at the limits that one benefits from the larger aperture. For example, M-13 is brighter, more resolved, takes higher magnification. There is a benefit on most any object.

As far as a recommendation on a larger scope, our individual situations are unique, I own a 10 inch, a 12.5 inch and a 16 inch Dob, I think in terms of thresholds, a 12.5 inch is about the largest size that is an easy sit down for any part of the sky.. It's just a great size, big but not too big.

When one starts looking at 16 inch scopes, the effort, the size, the increased effort, standing or using a tall chair, it's another commitment. If one does the math, the gain in terms of light gathering and resolution in going from a 10 inch to a 12.5 inch essentially the same as going from an 12.5 inch to a 16 inch. But the effort is not so evenly distributed. a 12.5 inch, particularly a truss, is about the same effort as a 10 inch, a 16 inch represents a major step up.

If a 12 inch or 12.5 inch is the right size for someone, then it's definitely worth the effort...

Jon Isaacs


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ckwastro
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/05

Loc: Tempe, AZ
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5652313 - 01/30/13 01:22 PM

Quote:

A few thoughts:

It's not just when working at the limits that one benefits from the larger aperture. For example, M-13 is brighter, more resolved, takes higher magnification. There is a benefit on most any object.




I know you've been doing this longer than I have, and I certainly value and respect your opinions, but I have been observing for 17 years myself, so I do understand this. I certainly agree that when conditions allow, the 12.5 will show more of what's there on any object. But we're discussing an upgrade, not an outright addition to the equipment inventory. I too consider all of the aspects you listed, which is why I feel the step up to a 12.5" is not worth it "if" one already has a 10". I realize this is completely subjective.

Personally I don't find the differences in showpiece objects significant enough to warrant a change from 10 to 12.5. If you do that's great, and if the OP decides he does that's wonderful. Again, if it were just a matter of adding a scope, then sure I'd go for the 12.5 without hesitation. But a small upgrade of 2.5" at this size? Not for me.

Right now for backyard lunar/planetary use I have the Mewlon 210. I "wish" I had the M250, but I got a smoking deal on the 210 so I grabbed it. I had given some thought about trying to find a used 250, but in the end didn't feel the small step up was worth at least double the cost of what I paid for the 210. Granted, the dob upgrade differential probably won't be that drastic, but I've held off because for me, the performance increase isn't justifiable for the price. In fact, I'm currently considering my options for a solid-tube 12.5 or a 16" - 18" truss rather than going to a 10". I haven't figured out what I want to do at this point, but I know since I will be keeping the M210, the 10" is out of the question.

Edited by ckwastro (01/30/13 01:31 PM)


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Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5652344 - 01/30/13 01:36 PM

The key to the question here lies in the words "worth it." Obviously and irrefutably a 12 inch scope (assuming equal quality optics) will provide more than a ten inch scope. That's an objective fact. The "worth it" component is a subjective judgment, however, involving one's personal attitude towards spending money, lifting a larger and heavier scope, and just generally going to the effort to make a change.

Personally I happen to be resistant to spending money on hobbies, prefer not to lift heavy objects that might put out my back, and try to avoid hassles when it comes to equipment. But it was very much worth it for me to move from an 8 inch scope to a 12.5 inch scope. The difference meant seeing structure in galaxies like M51 and not seeing structure and that was a very nice improvement. I wouldn't bother moving to a 14" or even 16" scope, however, though there would also be an improvement (I have viewed side by side with a 14 inch scope and my own 12.5 inch scope and there is indeed a difference). But my point is that the answer to the question very much depends on the personal predilections of the original poster.


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oldtimer
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 11/13/08

Loc: Lake County Illinois
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5652372 - 01/30/13 01:46 PM

I made this move and really didn't see much of a difference. Then my 12.5 mirror met with a major accident (car crash) and I moved to a 14" . Now that was a definite WOW!

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ckwastro
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/05

Loc: Tempe, AZ
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Joad]
      #5652379 - 01/30/13 01:48 PM

We should probably simplify things:

I there a difference between the 10" & 12.5"? Yes, absolutely.

Is that performance difference significant? A matter of personal opinion. For some yes, for others no.

Is the performance difference "worth it"? Again a matter of personal opinion.

The best thing that could happen is for the OP to find someone with a 12 or 12.5 who is willing to spend a little time letting him compare directly to his 10" side-by-side. Then he would know for certain whether or not that upgrade would be worth it to him.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5652573 - 01/30/13 03:40 PM

Quote:

We should probably simplify things:

I there a difference between the 10" & 12.5"? Yes, absolutely.

Is that performance difference significant? A matter of personal opinion. For some yes, for others no.

Is the performance difference "worth it"? Again a matter of personal opinion.

The best thing that could happen is for the OP to find someone with a 12 or 12.5 who is willing to spend a little time letting him compare directly to his 10" side-by-side. Then he would know for certain whether or not that upgrade would be worth it to him.




My thinking:

We both seem to agree how what that difference is, some but not a lot, not a WOW but rather but maybe an "ah yes."

I try to avoid making the judgment whether it is "worth it", that depends on the individual. Rather I hope to provide someone enough information that they have a sense of the difference, get a feel for what that difference is and then so they make a decision based on knowing what they are looking for. Reasonable expectations are the key to satisfaction...

Jon


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stratocaster
sage
*****

Reged: 10/27/11

Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5652580 - 01/30/13 03:42 PM

Now that I've been seriously back into the hobby a couple of years I have a bit different perspective on scope size. 10 years ago, or so, a 10" seemed to be considered the first entry into the "large" aperture arena. Now it is often labeled "not quite large enough."

But I didn't realize that when I first got back into the hobby, so I started with a 10" aperture again. Knowing what I think I know now, if I had to get a new scope all over again I'd definitely go with a 12" or 12.5" truss dob from a high end manufacturer - and perhaps an 8" solid tube as a goto scope for the back yard.

But, unless I had money to burn, going from a 10" to a 12" doesn't provide enough visual bang for the buck to me. And while everyone's situation is different, the weight and bulk of a 12" solid tube would provide a pretty big disincentive for taking the scope out. I can barely get my 10" into my car comfortably for deep sky outings.

If the weight and bulk doesn't bother you and you're willing to spend the money for a definite, though modest, improvement in the views, go for it.

But 16" sounds like the next logical step for a substantial improvement in your views.

As mentioned in some previous posts, I'd only pull the trigger on a 12" or 12.5" if there are other physical improvements in the upgrade that would make the overall experience worthwhile, e.g. ease of movement, quality of focuser, balance, aesthetics, etc. And perhaps a high end mirror vs mass-produced.


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ckwastro
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/05

Loc: Tempe, AZ
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5653189 - 01/30/13 08:54 PM

Quote:

We both seem to agree how what that difference is, some but not a lot, not a WOW but rather but maybe an "ah yes."

Reasonable expectations are the key to satisfaction...






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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5653220 - 01/30/13 09:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

We both seem to agree how what that difference is, some but not a lot, not a WOW but rather but maybe an "ah yes."

Reasonable expectations are the key to satisfaction...









Of course that "ah yes" just might turn into a when you finally see a long sought after object for the first time. I hunted for Stephen's quintet in the 10 inch but never saw it. Saw it in the 12.5 inch.

Jon


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
*****

Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5653528 - 01/31/13 02:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

We both seem to agree how what that difference is, some but not a lot, not a WOW but rather but maybe an "ah yes."

Reasonable expectations are the key to satisfaction...









Of course that "ah yes" just might turn into a when you finally see a long sought after object for the first time. I hunted for Stephen's quintet in the 10 inch but never saw it. Saw it in the 12.5 inch.

Jon



I was like that with the Horsehead nebula (B33). Looked for it for 11 years with an 8" and never spotted it.
Then spotted it without a filter on my first try with the 12.5" and have seen it many times since.
When you cross the Rubicon, you better have elephant feed (i.e the DSOs not visible in smaller apertures).


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gaz-in
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/17/07

Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5653780 - 01/31/13 08:20 AM

I was in the reverse situation. I have an excellent Teeter 12 with high end optics. I wanted something slightly more grab and go. I chose a Dobstuf 10 inch with standard optics. Light enuff to quickly setup and take down. When I have the time (and eneregy), I get the Teeter 12 and EQ platform out. For me a High end optics 12 and a standard optics 10 work just great...

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RocketScientist
super member


Reged: 08/28/08

Loc: California (East Bay area)
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: gaz-in]
      #5671400 - 02/09/13 08:41 PM

"Knowing what I think I know now, if I had to get a new scope all over again I'd definitely go with a 12" or 12.5" truss dob from a high end manufacturer - and perhaps an 8" solid tube as a goto scope for the back yard."

Anyone with a large truss tube scope needs some kind of grab-n-go for the back yard, and I would suggest that that backyard scope be no larger than 10". Anything in the 6 - 10" could work (or a 4" refractor) depending on your situation.

Some nights you won't observe at all if your only choice is to assemble and collimate a truss scope.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: RocketScientist]
      #5671909 - 02/10/13 07:16 AM

Quote:

"Knowing what I think I know now, if I had to get a new scope all over again I'd definitely go with a 12" or 12.5" truss dob from a high end manufacturer - and perhaps an 8" solid tube as a goto scope for the back yard."

Anyone with a large truss tube scope needs some kind of grab-n-go for the back yard, and I would suggest that that backyard scope be no larger than 10". Anything in the 6 - 10" could work (or a 4" refractor) depending on your situation.

Some nights you won't observe at all if your only choice is to assemble and collimate a truss scope.




A fast 4 inch refractor on an alt-az mount is a great companion for a larger scope... I agree that a smaller scope is almost a necessity but one can leave a truss Dob assembled in the garage and just roll it out to use it.

Jon


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azure1961p
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: RocketScientist]
      #5672021 - 02/10/13 09:35 AM

Quote:

"Knowing what I think I know now, if I had to get a new scope all over again I'd definitely go with a 12" or 12.5" truss dob from a high end manufacturer - and perhaps an 8" solid tube as a goto scope for the back yard."

Anyone with a large truss tube scope needs some kind of grab-n-go for the back yard, and I would suggest that that backyard scope be no larger than 10". Anything in the 6 - 10" could work (or a 4" refractor) depending on your situation.

Some nights you won't observe at all if your only choice is to assemble and collimate a truss scope.




I don't know if that assembly of a truss is do bad. Mi d you - lol - I've never done it but if you figure that first hour the mirror is cooling down anyway who cares if your putting it together and how long can it take at most 30min? I'd bet half that without collimation - I'm thinking of a 12" f/5 truss.

My 8" reflector gets a full hour of cooling even with two fans blowing. It's 5 min to set up then I listen to the radio, look through binos, or the Ranger.

My point that even if a truss was already while, its still got cool down time.

Pete


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RocketScientist
super member


Reged: 08/28/08

Loc: California (East Bay area)
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5672559 - 02/10/13 03:22 PM

Quote:

Some nights you won't observe at all if your only choice is to assemble and collimate a truss scope.

Quote:

I don't know if that assembly of a truss is so bad. Mind you - lol - I've never done it but if you figure that first hour the mirror is cooling down anyway who cares if your putting it together and how long can it take at most 30min? I'd bet half that without collimation - I'm thinking of a 12" f/5 truss.







You care if you don't have the 30 minutes to spare. A scope cooling down does not require human intervention; I can be cooking, eating, cleaning, etc. while the scope is cooling down. I cannot do those things and assemble or collimate a scope at the same time.

I typically stick my Z10 out on the deck, plug in the fan, and come back inside. It takes about 2 - 3 minutes. Then I wait an hour for cooldown and do my other tasks. After dinner, the scope is ready.

Some nights you'll have time to assemble and collimate; some you won't. I agree with the poster who said that if you can leave the truss scope assembled in a shed or garage, the problem largely goes away. And I agree with Jon that a 4" refractor would be a great companion scope.


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azure1961p
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: RocketScientist]
      #5672677 - 02/10/13 04:48 PM

Ah, see that's the difference. I've been observing from my backyard this winter but typically I drive somewhere and well - like it or not that thing is gonna take its hour. Hence the binos and refractor and radio.

Pete


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johnnyha
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5673400 - 02/11/13 01:06 AM

Quote:

I don't know if that assembly of a truss is do bad. Mi d you - lol - I've never done it but if you figure that first hour the mirror is cooling down anyway who cares if your putting it together and how long can it take at most 30min?




Setting up a truss scope while it's cooling down is one thing... breaking the scope down at the end of the night is another. I am a backyard observer and I keep my scope assembled in the living room, mainly so i don't have to break it down at the end of the night.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5673834 - 02/11/13 11:04 AM

Regarding the discussion of cool down... Viewing through a scope that is cooling down is like observing in less than perfect seeing... there is no reason to wait if the skies are dark and there are no clouds. Pick your targets based on usable magnifications. When the scope is cooled down and thermally stable, push the limits of the seeing. Until, then, just have fun.

Jon


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