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Equipment Discussions >> Reflectors

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denis0007dl
sage
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Reged: 04/17/12

Loc: Croatia
Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth?
      #5603419 - 01/03/13 05:47 PM

I have 10" tuned dob using for binoviewing, so is worth to upgrade it with 12"" mirror?

Will be difference noticable, and how much?

I am not interest for 14" or larger mirrors because of weight, size....


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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5603456 - 01/03/13 06:09 PM

Are you saying that your 10 inch mirror housing will hold a 12?

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denis0007dl
sage
***

Reged: 04/17/12

Loc: Croatia
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5603477 - 01/03/13 06:23 PM

Quote:

Are you saying that your 10 inch mirror housing will hold a 12?




No, upgrade 10" dob with 12" dob!


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Bob S.
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/14/05

Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5603486 - 01/03/13 06:31 PM

Things will be brighter in your binoviewers. However, you will likely not see too much more.

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lbsgville
sage


Reged: 06/15/10

Loc: Florida
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5603488 - 01/03/13 06:32 PM

You will see some difference at the eyepiece, it will not be a lot, but worth it if 12" is as big as you want to go. If you do not want to go to a 14" mirror than the 12" is your next step. If you are talking about getting a scope and not just swapping out the mirror I would think about keeping the tuned up 10" for bino viewing and have the 12" for single eyepiece deeper sky stuff. I have a 10" solid tube now and will be getting a 14" some day. I will keep the 10" as a grab and go, it's pretty well tuned up as well and is a keeper for life.

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TexasRed
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/17/11

Loc: East Texas
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: lbsgville]
      #5603602 - 01/03/13 07:49 PM

If you're making side-by-side comparisons, you'll find a 12" mirror noticably better, but there won't be any "wow" factor. If you're used to the views through a 10" and spend money to upgrade to a 12", you may have to examine several targets before you notice any improvement. You'll probably be asking yourself why you spent good money for an improvement this small when you could have just put a more comfortable seat on your observing chair and added more to your observing experience.

I made the step up from 10" to 12", but I was mainly moving from an EQ mount to a Dobsonian with GoTo and auto-tracking. The "wow" factor and bang-for-the-buck was in the improvement in ease of use and portability, not the view.

On the other hand, I made the step up to a 12" to hit my maximum for size, weight and ease of use. I knew I'd never be tempted to go larger. It's hard to judge the value of that satisfaction.


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kfiscus
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: Albert Lea, MN, USA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: TexasRed]
      #5604025 - 01/04/13 02:55 AM

I went from a 10" to a 12" and was very impressed. The 10" is now relegated to outreach only. M-51 now shows much better definition, M-33 has arms and H-II regions, dust lane of M-31 is striking. Stephan's Quintet has become almost easy.

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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: kfiscus]
      #5604715 - 01/04/13 12:44 PM

Of all the 2-inch aperture jumps folks consider doing, the 10-to-12 is still a pretty decent one; 6-to-8 and 8-to-10 still provide larger *changes* in light-grasp... yet 12-to-14 or 14-to-16 would provide less.

More significantly, however, is as was posted above- if your personal weight/size/transport/cost/etc. "limit" is a 12-inch scope, then by ALL means, *DO* maximize! BUT- if at some point in the near future you suspect your head might be turned toward a 14-15 inch scope, then maybe it's better to wait & see what your true limit really is before taking the plunge. Better to make such a jump in one wise step, rather than two poorly considered ones.

Still, nothin' wrong with BVing a 10" scope! I did that for several years, and had a blast- saw lots of amazing stuff!


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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Mike B]
      #5604750 - 01/04/13 01:03 PM

If the mirror in your GSO is stock, I would suggest in upgrading to a 12.5" to go ahead and get a premium mirror like Zambuto, to ensure you get the absolute most out of the 12". Then I think you might be looking at a significant upgrade.

Edited by johnnyha (01/04/13 01:04 PM)


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Galicapernistein
super member


Reged: 09/24/07

Loc: Detroit Michigan
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5604789 - 01/04/13 01:21 PM

It depends on what you like to look at too. I don't think the brighter showpiece objects will look too much better in a 12 than a 10" scope, or the planets for that matter. But if you like to pick off those little ovals in the star atlases, or want to start tracking down some galaxy clusters other than what's in Virgo, I think it would be worth upgrading to a 12" dob.

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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Galicapernistein]
      #5604842 - 01/04/13 01:46 PM

I would sooner observe with a 10" with great optics than a 12" with good optics. Be careful what you are comparing - 10" vs. 12" alone means nothing.

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hottr6
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/28/09

Loc: 7,500', Magdalena Mtns, NM
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Mike B]
      #5605579 - 01/04/13 09:06 PM

I've never looked through a 12", but I have done side-by-side comparisons with a 5" and 6", both f/5 Newts, and the difference was astounding! The views were very different. E.g., the 5" could not resolve M13 stars except scattered around the edge, whereas the 6" showed lanes. The 6" clearly shows more belts on Jupiter and Saturn. The 6" hints at details that I see clearly in my 10" but any such hints are missing in the 5".

I don't know if this 6":5" experience would transfer to the 12":10" experience, but I note that the ratio of the surface areas is the same in both cases.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: dpwoos]
      #5605587 - 01/04/13 09:09 PM

Quote:

I would sooner observe with a 10" with great optics than a 12" with good optics. Be careful what you are comparing - 10" vs. 12" alone means nothing.




Good point. If you upgrade, get the best optics you can afford. This is an area to do research.


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yonkrz
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 11/16/06

Loc: SW Minnesota
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5605600 - 01/04/13 09:26 PM

Ive had three tens and three twelves(all GSOs),not a huge differance,but there was a differance.if i didnt love the compactness of my c-8 ,i would have a 12" again,and i am seriously considering one at this time,get the biggest you can get for your present time.they are just so cheap for what you get.

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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: yonkrz]
      #5605689 - 01/04/13 10:35 PM

Great choice. It's amazing how many seasoned observers have settled on a 12" class dob for their main scope, due to its portability and ability to cool down quickly. Larger dobs can end up chasing thermals all night long. 12" is great. If you can find a thin premium mirror then all the better.

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JayinUTModerator
I'm not Sleepy
*****

Reged: 09/19/08

Loc: Utah
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5605948 - 01/05/13 02:29 AM

Where do you observe mostly? Dark site or light pollution? I ask and others will disagree but I wouldn't jump from a 10 to a 12 in LP as its not enough of a jump to matter for me (nothing with more light gathering etc.I just don't see enough of a difference in details in a LP). Also, the if you like your ten and use it a lot that might just say that's the right size. I did see a difference from 10 to 14 in both LP and at dark sites(there are light weight options at 14). A 12 at a dark site with a good mirror will increase detail, and contrast and structure in DSO's if those are the items your going for. Last, and I'd rather have a ten with a very good mirror then a 12 with a so so mirror. This could change somewhat if planets and doubles are your objects.

Edit:I still own my 10 and one thing to consider is upgrading some items on your 10 as many here have done.

Edited by JayinUT (01/05/13 02:33 AM)


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denis0007dl
sage
***

Reged: 04/17/12

Loc: Croatia
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: JayinUT]
      #5606046 - 01/05/13 05:43 AM

Thanxs everyone for sugestions!

So, which mirrors, Orion UK with 1/10 lambda and 97% reflectivity, Zambuto mirrors (I did not found their specifications for mirrors), Discovery Telescopes or....


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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5606113 - 01/05/13 08:30 AM

There are folks who claim that beyond a certain point it doesn't matter, and that seeking out a great mirror has little or nothing to do with achieving great views. If that is what they see, then fine for them. It is not what I see, nor what (most) of the folks that I observe with see. If you haven't yet made up your mind about this, then I strongly suggest that you seek out your (local) astro club, where (I hope) you can check it out for yourself.

For sure Zambuto mirrors have a great reputation, so much so that I sometimes wonder if it is over the top. However, if one accepts it as deserved (and I am not claiming otherwise) then it seems like getting a Zambuto optic guarantees excellence (c.f. Roland Christen). I am sure that there are others that folks feel just as strongly about, and one or more of them might be near you? Where I am (Vermont), we are fortunate to have a fellow who does outstanding work, and the views with his mirrors are always as good as (or better than) any in the field. Using a locally made mirror is really wonderful, and I suggest you take advantage of that if at all possible.

Finally, the proof is in the views through the eyepiece and not in the name on the mirror.

Edited by dpwoos (01/05/13 08:31 AM)


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Wave Vector
sage


Reged: 04/01/06

Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: lbsgville]
      #5608452 - 01/06/13 01:59 PM

A ten inch grab and go? Really?

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Achernar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5608701 - 01/06/13 04:01 PM

There is a noticeable improvement when it comes to faint objects like galaxies when you're in a dark area. However, from a light polluted area or when you're observing Solar System objects, I doubt you would see much of a difference. In other words, to see a major gain in light gathering power and resolution, you'll be looking at a 14 to 16-inch class telescope.

Taras


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hottr6
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/28/09

Loc: 7,500', Magdalena Mtns, NM
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Wave Vector]
      #5611717 - 01/08/13 10:53 AM

Quote:

A ten inch grab and go? Really?



You better believe it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp2gWQe9XlE


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: hottr6]
      #5611747 - 01/08/13 11:06 AM

I can have my eyeball to eyepiece in my 10XTi in about half the time of my 102XLT. All my scopes are GoTo Grabngo, I GoTo them daily and look at them because the weather says GoTo inside...it's cold and cloudy out here.......and when a clear day comes along, I grabngo with them.....

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Pinbout
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: nj
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: hottr6]
      #5611751 - 01/08/13 11:09 AM

like the motorized leveling mounts. very cool

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donnie3
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/15/04

Loc: bartlesville oklahoma
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Achernar]
      #5636184 - 01/22/13 03:19 AM

achernar, i agree! i own a 10" orion at the present time and had a 12" about 6 months age, they are big and heavy but manageable. i live in what i would call semi light polluted skies and could not see a real difference on most objects. the 10" is so portable and easy the take out. im sticking with the 10". just my option. donnie

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Darren Drake
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/09/02

Loc: Chicagoland
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: donnie3]
      #5636330 - 01/22/13 07:31 AM

It's a 44% increase in light grasp which is significant but not major.

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Wave Vector]
      #5636478 - 01/22/13 09:29 AM

Quote:

A ten inch grab and go? Really?




It's relative, compared to a 20 inch, a 10 inch is an easy setup and easy to transport. Compared to an 80 mm apo, its big and awkward.

I have a 10 inch f/5 that I keep around just because it is so handy. I don't call it Grab and Go but if I want to Go on a quick run to a nearby park and want to take a larger scope, it's the one I grab.

Jon


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
*****

Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5637672 - 01/22/13 08:25 PM

10" to 12"?
Only if upgrading from an inexpensive Chinese dob to a custom-built American made high-end dob. THEN, it would be worth it.
But upgrading a 10" Chinese dob to a 12" Chinese dob?
No, the change in views would be minimal (44% increase in light grasp, which is not really very significant).
Rebuilding the 10" in a great new housing?
Now that I'd do.
Seems Jon did it, too.


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Achernar
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: donnie3]
      #5637688 - 01/22/13 08:35 PM

A 10-inch solid tube is a whole lot easier to carry than the 12-inch, which is why I would at that poing go from a solid tube to a truss-tube. I'd choose the 10-inch over a 12 if all I had to choose from was a solid tube configuration.

Taras


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steveyo
super member


Reged: 03/13/12

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5644099 - 01/26/13 10:18 AM

Quote:

10" to 12"? Only if upgrading from an inexpensive Chinese dob to a custom-built American made high-end dob...




Yes, what Starman1 said is sage advice.

I had a chance to compare my Apertura AD8 to a Teeter/Zambuto 8" side by side, and difference was easily noticeable. The contrast of Teeter blew away the views in my GSO 8".

I recently sold the AD8, which I loved, and ordered a Teeter/Royce 10" F/5. I decided 10" is my limit due to portability - it will still fit into my Honda Fit and be easy to move around. In fact, the new Teeter will weigh substantially less than my AD8.

Even though 8 - to 10" isn't a huge jump, I anticipate the premium Royce conical mirror to show markedly better contrast, and, given conditions, to be able to accept higher magnification as well. Mmmm...festoons.


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: hottr6]
      #5645158 - 01/26/13 09:31 PM

10 inch to 14+ is a major change. 20" to 12" is a minor change not significant enough.

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dvb
different Syndrome.
*****

Reged: 06/18/05

Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: steveyo]
      #5647096 - 01/27/13 10:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

10" to 12"? Only if upgrading from an inexpensive Chinese dob to a custom-built American made high-end dob...




Yes, what Starman1 said is sage advice.

I had a chance to compare my Apertura AD8 to a Teeter/Zambuto 8" side by side, and difference was easily noticeable. The contrast of Teeter blew away the views in my GSO 8".

I recently sold the AD8, which I loved, and ordered a Teeter/Royce 10" F/5. I decided 10" is my limit due to portability - it will still fit into my Honda Fit and be easy to move around. In fact, the new Teeter will weigh substantially less than my AD8.

Even though 8 - to 10" isn't a huge jump, I anticipate the premium Royce conical mirror to show markedly better contrast, and, given conditions, to be able to accept higher magnification as well. Mmmm...festoons.




You'll be very pleased with the Royce 10" f/5.

I replaced a Skywatcher 10" f/4.7 with a Royce 10" f/4.5, and I am continually astounded at the improvement in what I can see in the deep sky


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RocketScientist
super member


Reged: 08/28/08

Loc: California (East Bay area)
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: dvb]
      #5647226 - 01/28/13 12:15 AM

I agree with the consensus here. I love my 10", and after looking through quite a range of others' scopes at star parties, I wouldn't upgrade to anything less than 15". Somewhere around 15" is where galaxies start to show detail instead of blobs.

I think there's a sweet spot around 15" - 16" if you can handle the portability issues. 12", not so much; you are adding far more weight than light-gathering or resolving power in going from 10" to 12".


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steveyo
super member


Reged: 03/13/12

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: dvb]
      #5647537 - 01/28/13 08:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

...I recently sold the AD8, which I loved, and ordered a Teeter/Royce 10" F/5...Even though 8 - to 10" isn't a huge jump, I anticipate the premium Royce conical mirror to show markedly better contrast, and, given conditions, to be able to accept higher magnification as well. Mmmm...festoons.



You'll be very pleased with the Royce 10" f/5.

I replaced a Skywatcher 10" f/4.7 with a Royce 10" f/4.5, and I am continually astounded at the improvement in what I can see in the deep sky



Glad to hear this - thanks!


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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: RocketScientist]
      #5648679 - 01/28/13 04:48 PM

Quote:

I agree with the consensus here. I love my 10", and after looking through quite a range of others' scopes at star parties, I wouldn't upgrade to anything less than 15". Somewhere around 15" is where galaxies start to show detail instead of blobs.

I think there's a sweet spot around 15" - 16" if you can handle the portability issues. 12", not so much; you are adding far more weight than light-gathering or resolving power in going from 10" to 12".




Again, I remember some advice that Peter Smitka gave me almost 20 years ago. If you want a noticeable bump up, double the light gathering of your optics. You would go from an 8 to a 12 to an 18 and so on. Something in that order is what I would recommend. Yes to going up a few inches IF you are going to move up in optical quality.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5648723 - 01/28/13 05:06 PM

Quote:


Again, I remember some advice that Peter Smitka gave me almost 20 years ago. If you want a noticeable bump up, double the light gathering of your optics. You would go from an 8 to a 12 to an 18 and so on. Something in that order is what I would recommend. Yes to going up a few inches IF you are going to move up in optical quality.




The step from a 10 inch to a 12.5 inch is noticeable but it's not dramatic. If one is in search of a WOW, then the step up is probably not going to be satisfactory.

On the other hand, if one is looking for a more capable tool, then a 12.5 inch will show more than a 10 inch and it may be worthwhile.

Jon


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5648802 - 01/28/13 05:39 PM

Quote:

If one is in search of a WOW, then the step up is probably not going to be satisfactory.



Nicely made point, Jon... one i've not yet (that i know) heard articulated, and a very insightful differentiation; if "WOW" is all one is after, get the big back-hoe with a HUGE bucket. If, otoh, one is performing a paleontological "dig" looking for delicate fossils, something with a bit more control & finesse is probably in order.

Fit the tool to the need.

In optical terms, finesse is what my friend's 6" AP 'fractor will show you... amazing levels of detail, finely pointed stars all over the place, pointier than the mortal mind can fathom! Yet it's "only" 6-inches of aperture. After a night of looking thru typical Dobs & Cats, and even good ones at that, you'd be led to guess it was a far larger aperture, based on its views!

Quote:

Yes to going up a few inches IF you are going to move up in optical quality.



Or stated another way, if your shoe size is a 12, and you're limping along in a "10", you prob'ly don't need a "14". Yeah, it's bigger, but the 12 is what FITS you! Any number of pairs of discount 14's aren't going to do it for you... so spend what you can afford (or as we so often do, a wee tad more ) and get the absolute BEST 12 that you can swing, maybe even "used" to allow more quality in the budget.

Then you have really good-performing & quality shoes, and ones that FIT you, to boot!


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gaz-in
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/17/07

Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5649753 - 01/29/13 06:45 AM

Quote:

Great choice. It's amazing how many seasoned observers have settled on a 12" class dob for their main scope, due to its portability and ability to cool down quickly. Larger dobs can end up chasing thermals all night long. 12" is great. If you can find a thin premium mirror then all the better.




Concur with this reccomendation. I have a 12 inch with a 1 inch thick Gordon Waite mirror....with the cooling fans on it will drop about 10 degrees in 15 minutes.


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mark379
sage
*****

Reged: 02/07/09

Loc: New Jersey
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: RocketScientist]
      #5649940 - 01/29/13 09:55 AM

I have had both. I wound up getting rid of the 12 and Now have a 10 and a 14 in. There is very little gained visually between 10 and 12", but a lot of weight. Later I decided on a truss in 14 for when I go out into the country for DSO work.
The 10" is a fine scope which will give great views for the weight.


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ckwastro
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/05

Loc: Tempe, AZ
Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5650085 - 01/29/13 11:23 AM

Quote:

I have 10" tuned dob using for binoviewing, so is worth to upgrade it with 12"" mirror?

Will be difference noticable, and how much?

I am not interest for 14" or larger mirrors because of weight, size....




I suppose this would depend on your end game, and what objects you mainly observe. Are you looking to have the largest scope that you feel you can move, transport, and store? If 12" is the top, then it might be worth it if you have no future plans for any larger telescopes.

However, if you are really not interested in 14" or larger, but are looking for a significantly noticeable visual increase over the 10", then I would say no, the upgrade to a 12" would not be worth it. You'd need to jump up to a 14.5 or 16 minimum for that IMHO, and as you stated, those don't hold interest for you due to weight and size. The 10" is going to be easier all the way around than the 12", and in most cases would not be worth the extra hassle or money to upgrade for the extra 2".

I owned a 10" f/5.6 solid-tube and 14.5" f/4.3 truss, together for several years. The 10" was a simple two-trip drop & go. The 14.5" was a little more work, but not bad at all. Since I owned the 14.5 first, I only got the 10" for home use when I didn't have a lot of time or didn't feel like setting up the 14.5.

The difference between these two was certainly noticeable, but still not a huge "wow factor". Finer details were easier in the 14.5 but most of that detail was still visible in the 10. It was observations of faint objects under dark skies where the 14.5 noticeably out-performed the 10. When I compared the 10 to my friend's 12.5 under those same dark skies, the difference was no more than "edge of seeing"; in other words, negligible.

Edited by ckwastro (01/29/13 11:48 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5651642 - 01/30/13 06:17 AM

Quote:

When I compared the 10 to my friend's 12.5 under those same dark skies, the difference was no more than "edge of seeing"; in other words, negligible.




I have owned both a 10 inch and a 12.5 inch for more than 10 years. For me, I can say that the difference is significant, noticeable. Stars are brighter, working at the limit, faint objects are doable in the 12.5 inch that I just couldn't see in the 10 inch. Greater magnifications are possible.

If one makes the comparison at equal magnifications, the advantage of the greater aperture may not be so apparent. To take advantage of the larger aperture, comparisons can be done at same exit pupil, this means that extended objects are of equal brightness in both scopes but they are larger is the larger scope which translates into seeing/detecting smaller objects.

Jon Isaacs

Edited by Jon Isaacs (01/30/13 06:19 AM)


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ckwastro
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5652167 - 01/30/13 12:00 PM

Quote:

Stars are brighter, working at the limit, faint objects are doable in the 12.5 inch that I just couldn't see in the 10 inch. (emphasis mine) Greater magnifications are possible.
Jon Isaacs




Hi Jon,

This is what I meant by edge of seeing. Yes there are some things working at the limit that the 12.5 could pick up and the 10 could not, but it wasn't necessarily a heck of a lot in the grand scheme of things.

Perhaps the question of whether or not the upgrade is worth it would depend upon how much of our observing time would be used "at the limits". If one is pushing the scope to its maximum detection limits all night, every night, then yes it might be worth it. If one is looking at a variety of objects from bright to faint, and spending a smaller percentage of time observing at the edge of detection, then perhaps not. Either way, whether or not this "working at the limit" or "edge of seeing" - whatever we want to call it - is worth the upgrade is going to vary between individuals.

For me, if I were looking for a "new scope" I would certainly choose the 12.5 over the 10, but if I already had a 10", I would not upgrade to a 12.5, but rather look at moving up to at least a 16". For some that extra 2.5" might be worth the time and effort of selling the 10", probably at a loss, and the additional cost of acquiring a 12.5. For me, the differences would be too small to be worth it. YMMV.

Edited by ckwastro (01/30/13 12:03 PM)


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BigC
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5652262 - 01/30/13 12:52 PM

Quote:

I have 10" tuned dob using for binoviewing, so is worth to upgrade it with 12"" mirror?

Will be difference noticable, and how much?

I am not interest for 14" or larger mirrors because of weight, size....




If of equal quality ,then with a 12" you will pick up quite a few fainter objects that were just at the limit of the 10";that is my experience going from a Z10 to a Z12.

If they sold a Z14 I would get one!

If you are going for a custom scope then go right to the max of your physical limits because the bigger glass WILL gather more light.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5652268 - 01/30/13 12:55 PM

Quote:


Perhaps the question of whether or not the upgrade is worth it would depend upon how much of our observing time would be used "at the limits". If one is pushing the scope to its maximum detection limits all night, every night, then yes it might be worth it. If one is looking at a variety of objects from bright to faint, and spending a smaller percentage of time observing at the edge of detection, then perhaps not. Either way, whether or not this "working at the limit" or "edge of seeing" - whatever we want to call it - is worth the upgrade is going to vary between individuals.




A few thoughts:

It's not just when working at the limits that one benefits from the larger aperture. For example, M-13 is brighter, more resolved, takes higher magnification. There is a benefit on most any object.

As far as a recommendation on a larger scope, our individual situations are unique, I own a 10 inch, a 12.5 inch and a 16 inch Dob, I think in terms of thresholds, a 12.5 inch is about the largest size that is an easy sit down for any part of the sky.. It's just a great size, big but not too big.

When one starts looking at 16 inch scopes, the effort, the size, the increased effort, standing or using a tall chair, it's another commitment. If one does the math, the gain in terms of light gathering and resolution in going from a 10 inch to a 12.5 inch essentially the same as going from an 12.5 inch to a 16 inch. But the effort is not so evenly distributed. a 12.5 inch, particularly a truss, is about the same effort as a 10 inch, a 16 inch represents a major step up.

If a 12 inch or 12.5 inch is the right size for someone, then it's definitely worth the effort...

Jon Isaacs


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ckwastro
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5652313 - 01/30/13 01:22 PM

Quote:

A few thoughts:

It's not just when working at the limits that one benefits from the larger aperture. For example, M-13 is brighter, more resolved, takes higher magnification. There is a benefit on most any object.




I know you've been doing this longer than I have, and I certainly value and respect your opinions, but I have been observing for 17 years myself, so I do understand this. I certainly agree that when conditions allow, the 12.5 will show more of what's there on any object. But we're discussing an upgrade, not an outright addition to the equipment inventory. I too consider all of the aspects you listed, which is why I feel the step up to a 12.5" is not worth it "if" one already has a 10". I realize this is completely subjective.

Personally I don't find the differences in showpiece objects significant enough to warrant a change from 10 to 12.5. If you do that's great, and if the OP decides he does that's wonderful. Again, if it were just a matter of adding a scope, then sure I'd go for the 12.5 without hesitation. But a small upgrade of 2.5" at this size? Not for me.

Right now for backyard lunar/planetary use I have the Mewlon 210. I "wish" I had the M250, but I got a smoking deal on the 210 so I grabbed it. I had given some thought about trying to find a used 250, but in the end didn't feel the small step up was worth at least double the cost of what I paid for the 210. Granted, the dob upgrade differential probably won't be that drastic, but I've held off because for me, the performance increase isn't justifiable for the price. In fact, I'm currently considering my options for a solid-tube 12.5 or a 16" - 18" truss rather than going to a 10". I haven't figured out what I want to do at this point, but I know since I will be keeping the M210, the 10" is out of the question.

Edited by ckwastro (01/30/13 01:31 PM)


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Joad
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5652344 - 01/30/13 01:36 PM

The key to the question here lies in the words "worth it." Obviously and irrefutably a 12 inch scope (assuming equal quality optics) will provide more than a ten inch scope. That's an objective fact. The "worth it" component is a subjective judgment, however, involving one's personal attitude towards spending money, lifting a larger and heavier scope, and just generally going to the effort to make a change.

Personally I happen to be resistant to spending money on hobbies, prefer not to lift heavy objects that might put out my back, and try to avoid hassles when it comes to equipment. But it was very much worth it for me to move from an 8 inch scope to a 12.5 inch scope. The difference meant seeing structure in galaxies like M51 and not seeing structure and that was a very nice improvement. I wouldn't bother moving to a 14" or even 16" scope, however, though there would also be an improvement (I have viewed side by side with a 14 inch scope and my own 12.5 inch scope and there is indeed a difference). But my point is that the answer to the question very much depends on the personal predilections of the original poster.


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oldtimer
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5652372 - 01/30/13 01:46 PM

I made this move and really didn't see much of a difference. Then my 12.5 mirror met with a major accident (car crash) and I moved to a 14" . Now that was a definite WOW!

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ckwastro
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Joad]
      #5652379 - 01/30/13 01:48 PM

We should probably simplify things:

I there a difference between the 10" & 12.5"? Yes, absolutely.

Is that performance difference significant? A matter of personal opinion. For some yes, for others no.

Is the performance difference "worth it"? Again a matter of personal opinion.

The best thing that could happen is for the OP to find someone with a 12 or 12.5 who is willing to spend a little time letting him compare directly to his 10" side-by-side. Then he would know for certain whether or not that upgrade would be worth it to him.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5652573 - 01/30/13 03:40 PM

Quote:

We should probably simplify things:

I there a difference between the 10" & 12.5"? Yes, absolutely.

Is that performance difference significant? A matter of personal opinion. For some yes, for others no.

Is the performance difference "worth it"? Again a matter of personal opinion.

The best thing that could happen is for the OP to find someone with a 12 or 12.5 who is willing to spend a little time letting him compare directly to his 10" side-by-side. Then he would know for certain whether or not that upgrade would be worth it to him.




My thinking:

We both seem to agree how what that difference is, some but not a lot, not a WOW but rather but maybe an "ah yes."

I try to avoid making the judgment whether it is "worth it", that depends on the individual. Rather I hope to provide someone enough information that they have a sense of the difference, get a feel for what that difference is and then so they make a decision based on knowing what they are looking for. Reasonable expectations are the key to satisfaction...

Jon


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stratocaster
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5652580 - 01/30/13 03:42 PM

Now that I've been seriously back into the hobby a couple of years I have a bit different perspective on scope size. 10 years ago, or so, a 10" seemed to be considered the first entry into the "large" aperture arena. Now it is often labeled "not quite large enough."

But I didn't realize that when I first got back into the hobby, so I started with a 10" aperture again. Knowing what I think I know now, if I had to get a new scope all over again I'd definitely go with a 12" or 12.5" truss dob from a high end manufacturer - and perhaps an 8" solid tube as a goto scope for the back yard.

But, unless I had money to burn, going from a 10" to a 12" doesn't provide enough visual bang for the buck to me. And while everyone's situation is different, the weight and bulk of a 12" solid tube would provide a pretty big disincentive for taking the scope out. I can barely get my 10" into my car comfortably for deep sky outings.

If the weight and bulk doesn't bother you and you're willing to spend the money for a definite, though modest, improvement in the views, go for it.

But 16" sounds like the next logical step for a substantial improvement in your views.

As mentioned in some previous posts, I'd only pull the trigger on a 12" or 12.5" if there are other physical improvements in the upgrade that would make the overall experience worthwhile, e.g. ease of movement, quality of focuser, balance, aesthetics, etc. And perhaps a high end mirror vs mass-produced.


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ckwastro
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5653189 - 01/30/13 08:54 PM

Quote:

We both seem to agree how what that difference is, some but not a lot, not a WOW but rather but maybe an "ah yes."

Reasonable expectations are the key to satisfaction...






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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5653220 - 01/30/13 09:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

We both seem to agree how what that difference is, some but not a lot, not a WOW but rather but maybe an "ah yes."

Reasonable expectations are the key to satisfaction...









Of course that "ah yes" just might turn into a when you finally see a long sought after object for the first time. I hunted for Stephen's quintet in the 10 inch but never saw it. Saw it in the 12.5 inch.

Jon


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Starman1
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5653528 - 01/31/13 02:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

We both seem to agree how what that difference is, some but not a lot, not a WOW but rather but maybe an "ah yes."

Reasonable expectations are the key to satisfaction...









Of course that "ah yes" just might turn into a when you finally see a long sought after object for the first time. I hunted for Stephen's quintet in the 10 inch but never saw it. Saw it in the 12.5 inch.

Jon



I was like that with the Horsehead nebula (B33). Looked for it for 11 years with an 8" and never spotted it.
Then spotted it without a filter on my first try with the 12.5" and have seen it many times since.
When you cross the Rubicon, you better have elephant feed (i.e the DSOs not visible in smaller apertures).


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gaz-in
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5653780 - 01/31/13 08:20 AM

I was in the reverse situation. I have an excellent Teeter 12 with high end optics. I wanted something slightly more grab and go. I chose a Dobstuf 10 inch with standard optics. Light enuff to quickly setup and take down. When I have the time (and eneregy), I get the Teeter 12 and EQ platform out. For me a High end optics 12 and a standard optics 10 work just great...

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RocketScientist
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: gaz-in]
      #5671400 - 02/09/13 08:41 PM

"Knowing what I think I know now, if I had to get a new scope all over again I'd definitely go with a 12" or 12.5" truss dob from a high end manufacturer - and perhaps an 8" solid tube as a goto scope for the back yard."

Anyone with a large truss tube scope needs some kind of grab-n-go for the back yard, and I would suggest that that backyard scope be no larger than 10". Anything in the 6 - 10" could work (or a 4" refractor) depending on your situation.

Some nights you won't observe at all if your only choice is to assemble and collimate a truss scope.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: RocketScientist]
      #5671909 - 02/10/13 07:16 AM

Quote:

"Knowing what I think I know now, if I had to get a new scope all over again I'd definitely go with a 12" or 12.5" truss dob from a high end manufacturer - and perhaps an 8" solid tube as a goto scope for the back yard."

Anyone with a large truss tube scope needs some kind of grab-n-go for the back yard, and I would suggest that that backyard scope be no larger than 10". Anything in the 6 - 10" could work (or a 4" refractor) depending on your situation.

Some nights you won't observe at all if your only choice is to assemble and collimate a truss scope.




A fast 4 inch refractor on an alt-az mount is a great companion for a larger scope... I agree that a smaller scope is almost a necessity but one can leave a truss Dob assembled in the garage and just roll it out to use it.

Jon


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azure1961p
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: RocketScientist]
      #5672021 - 02/10/13 09:35 AM

Quote:

"Knowing what I think I know now, if I had to get a new scope all over again I'd definitely go with a 12" or 12.5" truss dob from a high end manufacturer - and perhaps an 8" solid tube as a goto scope for the back yard."

Anyone with a large truss tube scope needs some kind of grab-n-go for the back yard, and I would suggest that that backyard scope be no larger than 10". Anything in the 6 - 10" could work (or a 4" refractor) depending on your situation.

Some nights you won't observe at all if your only choice is to assemble and collimate a truss scope.




I don't know if that assembly of a truss is do bad. Mi d you - lol - I've never done it but if you figure that first hour the mirror is cooling down anyway who cares if your putting it together and how long can it take at most 30min? I'd bet half that without collimation - I'm thinking of a 12" f/5 truss.

My 8" reflector gets a full hour of cooling even with two fans blowing. It's 5 min to set up then I listen to the radio, look through binos, or the Ranger.

My point that even if a truss was already while, its still got cool down time.

Pete


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RocketScientist
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5672559 - 02/10/13 03:22 PM

Quote:

Some nights you won't observe at all if your only choice is to assemble and collimate a truss scope.

Quote:

I don't know if that assembly of a truss is so bad. Mind you - lol - I've never done it but if you figure that first hour the mirror is cooling down anyway who cares if your putting it together and how long can it take at most 30min? I'd bet half that without collimation - I'm thinking of a 12" f/5 truss.







You care if you don't have the 30 minutes to spare. A scope cooling down does not require human intervention; I can be cooking, eating, cleaning, etc. while the scope is cooling down. I cannot do those things and assemble or collimate a scope at the same time.

I typically stick my Z10 out on the deck, plug in the fan, and come back inside. It takes about 2 - 3 minutes. Then I wait an hour for cooldown and do my other tasks. After dinner, the scope is ready.

Some nights you'll have time to assemble and collimate; some you won't. I agree with the poster who said that if you can leave the truss scope assembled in a shed or garage, the problem largely goes away. And I agree with Jon that a 4" refractor would be a great companion scope.


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azure1961p
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: RocketScientist]
      #5672677 - 02/10/13 04:48 PM

Ah, see that's the difference. I've been observing from my backyard this winter but typically I drive somewhere and well - like it or not that thing is gonna take its hour. Hence the binos and refractor and radio.

Pete


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johnnyha
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5673400 - 02/11/13 01:06 AM

Quote:

I don't know if that assembly of a truss is do bad. Mi d you - lol - I've never done it but if you figure that first hour the mirror is cooling down anyway who cares if your putting it together and how long can it take at most 30min?




Setting up a truss scope while it's cooling down is one thing... breaking the scope down at the end of the night is another. I am a backyard observer and I keep my scope assembled in the living room, mainly so i don't have to break it down at the end of the night.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5673834 - 02/11/13 11:04 AM

Regarding the discussion of cool down... Viewing through a scope that is cooling down is like observing in less than perfect seeing... there is no reason to wait if the skies are dark and there are no clouds. Pick your targets based on usable magnifications. When the scope is cooled down and thermally stable, push the limits of the seeing. Until, then, just have fun.

Jon


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5673835 - 02/11/13 11:05 AM

Regarding the discussion of cool down... Viewing through a scope that is cooling down is like observing in less than perfect seeing... there is no reason to wait if the skies are dark and there are no clouds. Pick your targets based on usable magnifications. When the scope is cooled down and thermally stable, push the limits of the seeing. Until then, just have fun.

Jon


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csrlice12
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5673858 - 02/11/13 11:19 AM

A few BIG questions to ask yourself before getting a truss dob:
1. are you a clutz?
2. Do you drop things easily?
3. Is seven years bad luck cumulative, or consecutive?

If you know the answer to #3 already, chances are a truss dob is not for you....


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stratocaster
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5674097 - 02/11/13 01:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"Knowing what I think I know now, if I had to get a new scope all over again I'd definitely go with a 12" or 12.5" truss dob from a high end manufacturer - and perhaps an 8" solid tube as a goto scope for the back yard."

Anyone with a large truss tube scope needs some kind of grab-n-go for the back yard, and I would suggest that that backyard scope be no larger than 10". Anything in the 6 - 10" could work (or a 4" refractor) depending on your situation.

Some nights you won't observe at all if your only choice is to assemble and collimate a truss scope.




A fast 4 inch refractor on an alt-az mount is a great companion for a larger scope... I agree that a smaller scope is almost a necessity but one can leave a truss Dob assembled in the garage and just roll it out to use it.

Jon




I actually do have a 4" f7 refractor on an alt-az mount as my grab n go, and it does complement the 10" solid tube dob perfectly. If I did things over again and got a slightly larger truss, though, I wonder if my GnG would have been a smaller dob or a 4" refractor. I dunno. The refractor is awfully nice, though.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Upgrade 10" to 12"-is this worth? new [Re: stratocaster]
      #5674328 - 02/11/13 04:13 PM

Quote:

If I did things over again and got a slightly larger truss, though, I wonder if my GnG would have been a smaller dob or a 4" refractor. I dunno. The refractor is awfully nice, though.




4 inch F/7 refractors on alt-az mounts have capabilities a Newtonian doesn't. They are just so handy, they provide nice, wide fields of view... few thermal issues, nice for terrestrial viewing.

Jon


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