AlienRatDog
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: Ann Arbor
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Hey guys, on the other website I saw an ad that APM will be bringing out a cheaper ED doublet lens that you can replace your achros with. Now before starts freaking out over Chinese lenses or 6" ED doublet will be more like an achro thus not worth anyone's time   . I contacted Markus and he said that the lens will be made my LZOS and will use use OK-4 glass (the glass that people say is like FPL-52, while it is actually between FPL52 and 53, closer to FPL51 though  )
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Abe -- the poor PhD student
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12" LX200GPS-SMT w/UHTC
Explore Scientific 127mm Triplet ED APO
Losmandy GM8 EQ mount
Nagler 31mm, 17mm, 13mm, 12mm, 9mm, 2.5x Powermate
12X50 Binoculars
Understanding wife
One beautiful daughter, Emma-Rose (born 7-29-2009)
Twin boys (cats), half Persian/half Alley Cat but all Vermin!
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Doug76
Postmaster
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 5574
Loc: SE Louisiana, future Texan
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He announced that here in the Vendors section also. It was a suggestion I made to him when he was soliciting ideas a few weeks back. I figure some others probably recommended it also.
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Doug
Truckstop Astronomer
The Universe, the light of God, in all it's majesty
6 achro refractors, 50mm-150mm
1 apo refractor, 90mm
1 SCT, 8 inch
UO Abbe Volcano Tops
Faworski Ortho's
Panoptic 24mm
Carton 100mm f/13 under construction 
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AlienRatDog
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: Ann Arbor
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Hey you think a GM8 would hold a C6R?? ;-)
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Abe -- the poor PhD student
-----------------------------------------
12" LX200GPS-SMT w/UHTC
Explore Scientific 127mm Triplet ED APO
Losmandy GM8 EQ mount
Nagler 31mm, 17mm, 13mm, 12mm, 9mm, 2.5x Powermate
12X50 Binoculars
Understanding wife
One beautiful daughter, Emma-Rose (born 7-29-2009)
Twin boys (cats), half Persian/half Alley Cat but all Vermin!
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Scott99
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 706
Loc: New England
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I think this is great. The most advanced triplets are really beyond what most visual observers need. A 6 inch f/8 refractor can be a great visual instrument for its size and weight. The tube doesn't need to be huge with a 4 inch focuser and the lens doesn't need perfect color correction.
The OK4 LOMO doublets sold by Stellarvue and others in the past have been excellent performers, I'd expect the same from LZOS
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8x22 Steiner Safari binos
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Darren Bly
super member
Reged: 07/24/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Bakersfield, Ca
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There will be more than one vendor offering an ED replacement lens for the 6"f/8
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Darren in Bakersfield
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alfi1966
super member
Reged: 08/24/09
Posts: 119
Loc: norway
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hi
this sounds very interesting, but what prices are we talking here?
does anyone know?
alfi
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skywatcher 200mm f/5 newt, 150mm f/8.3 refractor w/ moonlite upgrade, Skywatcher EVOSTAR ED80 Pro DS,Meade Series 5000 80mm Triplet, eq6 pro synscan, eq5, canon 450d unmodded, canon 1000d modded, TS duomount and LVI Smartguider.
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Darren Bly
super member
Reged: 07/24/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Bakersfield, Ca
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The number that I've heard was under 1k for the lens set. We'll see.
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Darren in Bakersfield
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AlienRatDog
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: Ann Arbor
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I doubt that cheap, APM doesn't have a price yet. Under $1k, maybe for FPL51 Chinese lenses (even then, I doubt $1k). The reason I doubt that is because the lenses are going to be sourced from LZOS...and also, you guys think a GM8 would be up to a task for a C6R for visual?
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Abe -- the poor PhD student
-----------------------------------------
12" LX200GPS-SMT w/UHTC
Explore Scientific 127mm Triplet ED APO
Losmandy GM8 EQ mount
Nagler 31mm, 17mm, 13mm, 12mm, 9mm, 2.5x Powermate
12X50 Binoculars
Understanding wife
One beautiful daughter, Emma-Rose (born 7-29-2009)
Twin boys (cats), half Persian/half Alley Cat but all Vermin!
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 Don Allen
sage
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Charleston, SC
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If the views are as good as my SV Lomo, this will be a big seller.
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Don
SV 102A F/8.7 Lomo Doublet Apo SN 22
LXD75
35 Pan, 17T4, 7 Nag, 3-6 Nag Zoom
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old_frankland
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/28/05
Posts: 525
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
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Quote:
I doubt that cheap, APM doesn't have a price yet. Under $1k, maybe for FPL51 Chinese lenses (even then, I doubt $1k). The reason I doubt that is because the lenses are going to be sourced from LZOS...and also, you guys think a GM8 would be up to a task for a C6R for visual?
I don't think the GM8 would be very efficient for something as long and heavy as a 6 inch f/8 refractor, even if it is built light. I have a C925 on one, and it works fine for lunar and planetary imaging, but is pretty bouncy for focusing.
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Cheers,
Jim
Livermore CA
http://www.lafterhall.com/astro.html
3" APO, 4" ED refractor, 9" SCT, GM8
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KerryR
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 1172
Loc: SW Michigan
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Quote:
Hey guys, on the other website I saw an ad that APM will be bringing out a cheaper ED doublet lens that you can replace your achros with.
Anyone have a link? I'd like to keep track of this!
While my current C6 has a Chromacorr, I think replacing the doublet would probably be more effetive, particulary off-axis. Off-axis is of particular import to me-- I only use undriven alt-az mounts (hate gems).
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Kerry
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Doug76
Postmaster
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 5574
Loc: SE Louisiana, future Texan
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Quote:
Hey you think a GM8 would hold a C6R?? ;-)
Yes, I do. Visually at any rate.
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Doug
Truckstop Astronomer
The Universe, the light of God, in all it's majesty
6 achro refractors, 50mm-150mm
1 apo refractor, 90mm
1 SCT, 8 inch
UO Abbe Volcano Tops
Faworski Ortho's
Panoptic 24mm
Carton 100mm f/13 under construction
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Jeff B
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/30/06
Posts: 679
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Worked just fine for me and was not bouncy.
Jeff
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AlienRatDog
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: Ann Arbor
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Wow it looks like it sits pretty nicely!! I also have the pier extension for the GM8 so the height isn't an issue...
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Abe -- the poor PhD student
-----------------------------------------
12" LX200GPS-SMT w/UHTC
Explore Scientific 127mm Triplet ED APO
Losmandy GM8 EQ mount
Nagler 31mm, 17mm, 13mm, 12mm, 9mm, 2.5x Powermate
12X50 Binoculars
Understanding wife
One beautiful daughter, Emma-Rose (born 7-29-2009)
Twin boys (cats), half Persian/half Alley Cat but all Vermin!
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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 392
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Hello All,
In 2 weeks I will be in Moscow visiting LZOS and discussing with them the new projects. We send ahead the optical layout and will ask for a rough price quote.
As soon we have news I will announce it on the vendor forum, keep your eyes open
thanks
Markus Ludes
Edited by APM M.Ludes (10/11/09 10:20 AM)
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Don Allen
sage
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Charleston, SC
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Ok, for those who will be starting from scratch (estimated.)
(1) Used Celestron 6" F8 450.00
(2) APM Lens set 1000.00
(3) Moonlite Focuser 275.00
Total $1725.00 +/-
Not bad for a nice 6" LZOS doublet. Even if the lens
set is $1250, it would be good.
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Don
SV 102A F/8.7 Lomo Doublet Apo SN 22
LXD75
35 Pan, 17T4, 7 Nag, 3-6 Nag Zoom
Edited by Don Allen (10/11/09 09:56 PM)
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Doug76
Postmaster
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 5574
Loc: SE Louisiana, future Texan
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If you can be happy with the stock focuser (I wasn't, got the Moonlight) you could be getting an even better deal.
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Doug
Truckstop Astronomer
The Universe, the light of God, in all it's majesty
6 achro refractors, 50mm-150mm
1 apo refractor, 90mm
1 SCT, 8 inch
UO Abbe Volcano Tops
Faworski Ortho's
Panoptic 24mm
Carton 100mm f/13 under construction
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AlienRatDog
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: Ann Arbor
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Quote:
Ok, for those who will be starting from scratch (estimated.)
(1) Used Celestron 6" F8 450.00
(2) APM Lens set 1000.00
(3) Moonlite Focuser 275.00
Total $1725.00 +/-
Not bad for a nice 6" LZOS doublet. Even if the lens
set is $1250, it would be good.
Again, I highly doubt the lens would be a thousand...even if it was a Chinese made FPL-51...but if it was that cheap....HOLY COW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will be all over that like flies on dukie!!!
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Abe -- the poor PhD student
-----------------------------------------
12" LX200GPS-SMT w/UHTC
Explore Scientific 127mm Triplet ED APO
Losmandy GM8 EQ mount
Nagler 31mm, 17mm, 13mm, 12mm, 9mm, 2.5x Powermate
12X50 Binoculars
Understanding wife
One beautiful daughter, Emma-Rose (born 7-29-2009)
Twin boys (cats), half Persian/half Alley Cat but all Vermin!
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revans
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 1517
Loc: Fitchburg, MA
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If you replace the objective lens in a refractor, wouldn't it be beyond most people's experience to get it collimated? I can collimate a mirror but have never tried to collimate a refractor objective and the thought sort of scares me. Better a well collimated achro than a miscollimated ED or semi-apo or apo or whatever... but maybe I'm just being too cautious and maybe it would be quick and easy... I just am not sure...
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Rick Evans
http://www.freewebs.com/revans_01420/
"The universe is there for us to see, but it cannot be understood without learning its language -- mathematics." Galileo Galilei
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jayscheuerle
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/16/06
Posts: 4076
Loc: S. Philadelphia, PA
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Quote:
Ok, for those who will be starting from scratch (estimated.)
(1) Used Celestron 6" F8 450.00
(2) APM Lens set 1000.00
(3) Moonlite Focuser 275.00
Total $1725.00 +/-
Not bad for a nice 6" LZOS doublet. Even if the lens
set is $1250, it would be good.
And don't forget that you can probably sell the original achro set to recoup some dough... - j
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Fight indignorance!
The Green Goblin - 12" of dobsonian excellence!
The PortaBowl-a $100 4.5" f/8 ball-scope YOU can build!
Eero2-a 6" f/5 ball-scope you probably can't. 
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snart
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 596
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
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The correction for this will not be as good as the old Meade 152ED (because of the Meade’s f/9 verses f/8 and the glasses used will be equivalents). You can buy one of the Meade 152EDs for what? $1500? $2000 at the most? Why would anyone want to screw with this conversion when they can get something slightly better already put together and for less money to boot?
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Celestron C100ED w/ Moonlite focuser
6" f/9.25 Newtonian - GEM
Meade 10" f/10 Schmidt-Cassegrain
18" f/4.5 Newtonian - Dob
4mm & 5mm TMB SMCs, 6mm, 7mm, 9mm, 12mm UO HD Orthos, 4.8mm, 7mm, 11mm, 16mm, 20mm TV Naglers, 24mm, 32mm, 40mm TV WFs, 55mm TV Plossl.
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Patricko
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 1534
Loc: SE New Mexico USA
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Quote:
The correction for this will not be as good as the old Meade 152ED (because of the Meade’s f/9 verses f/8 and the glasses used will be equivalents). You can buy one of the Meade 152EDs for what? $1500? $2000 at the most? Why would anyone want to screw with this conversion when they can get something slightly better already put together and for less money to boot?
My thoughts exactly snart. 
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Clear skies,
Patrick
INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION
60MM TELESCOPE CLUB!
"You can always have better, but will you ever be happy with what you have?" - Me, myself, and I
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Patricko
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 1534
Loc: SE New Mexico USA
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Quote:
Ok, for those who will be starting from scratch (estimated.)
(1) Used Celestron 6" F8 450.00
(2) APM Lens set 1000.00
(3) Moonlite Focuser 275.00
Total $1725.00 +/-
Not bad for a nice 6" LZOS doublet. Even if the lens
set is $1250, it would be good.
 Ummmm....I think you better add in another $1,000; those bad boys ain't gonna figure themselves or go for free.  
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Clear skies,
Patrick
INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION
60MM TELESCOPE CLUB!
"You can always have better, but will you ever be happy with what you have?" - Me, myself, and I
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AlienRatDog
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: Ann Arbor
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Quote:
The correction for this will not be as good as the old Meade 152ED (because of the Meade’s f/9 verses f/8 and the glasses used will be equivalents). You can buy one of the Meade 152EDs for what? $1500? $2000 at the most? Why would anyone want to screw with this conversion when they can get something slightly better already put together and for less money to boot?
Snart, talking to Markus, these lenses will be using OK4 glass (which is closer to FPL-53 aka the same glass used in APM's triplet lenses). Just basing off of the focal ratio without taking the other factors into account not being completely accurate. If the glass was fPL51, then yeah....but it isn't...and also, with LZOS making them, I am sure the quality will far exceed the Meade doublets...This is why I doubt the lenses will be a thousand...probably much more....the correction will mirror closer to the FS152 (not quite but far closer to it than being corrected like a Meade 152ED). Even what I said above is very qualitative since I do not know any of the mating elements or the prescription...etc etc
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Abe -- the poor PhD student
-----------------------------------------
12" LX200GPS-SMT w/UHTC
Explore Scientific 127mm Triplet ED APO
Losmandy GM8 EQ mount
Nagler 31mm, 17mm, 13mm, 12mm, 9mm, 2.5x Powermate
12X50 Binoculars
Understanding wife
One beautiful daughter, Emma-Rose (born 7-29-2009)
Twin boys (cats), half Persian/half Alley Cat but all Vermin!
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KerryR
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 1172
Loc: SW Michigan
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It's worth noting that you don't see the Meade ED 152's all the time, so the replacement ed doublets may end up being the only way most of us (particularly those of us already owning C6's) will be able to go.
The Meade 152's had quite a bit of variability in optical quality, too. It's possible these replacement doublets will more consistantly high quality.
Regarding collimation and replacement: Unless the lens is super sensitive to centerting/wedge, as the Meade ed/apo's were (VERY steep curves there), collimation shouldn't be any more difficult than with the existing doublet. It's very easy to remove/replace/re-collimate the existing doublet. It's easier than a newt because you don't have to do the secondary-- just pop in a cheshire and collimate the image the same way you do the primary of a newt...
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Kerry
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Don Allen
sage
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Charleston, SC
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The Istar 127mm 3 element APO is $1145. Their 152mm 4 element is $3275. I will take a chance and say the APM's 6" doublet will run $1500 max and there will be NO in focus color. Otherwise why would anyone upgrade?
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Don
SV 102A F/8.7 Lomo Doublet Apo SN 22
LXD75
35 Pan, 17T4, 7 Nag, 3-6 Nag Zoom
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pollux
artiste
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 6863
Loc: Vancouver Canada
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If the ED upgrade is reasonably price I can see there will be a spike of interest in the 6" F8 achros
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Pentax 105SDP, Takahashi FS-78, Skywatcher 120ED BD
Vixen VMC200L & VMC260L
Pentax XW eyepiece (complete set), a few Plossls and a few wide angles
Personal Web Site
Telescope Comics
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snart
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 596
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
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Yeah, you’re right. I thought that OK4’s Abbe number was in the low 80’s but it is actually 92.05 making it very close to FPL-53! So after some quick number crunching pitted with some guestimation I would say that these 152mm f/8 doublets should be only slightly on the high side of being color free. I would suspect that some color will be visible, especially at higher powers, but the color should be very well suppressed (I’m guessing at about 33% to 50% better than the Meade 152ED).
--------------------
Celestron C100ED w/ Moonlite focuser
6" f/9.25 Newtonian - GEM
Meade 10" f/10 Schmidt-Cassegrain
18" f/4.5 Newtonian - Dob
4mm & 5mm TMB SMCs, 6mm, 7mm, 9mm, 12mm UO HD Orthos, 4.8mm, 7mm, 11mm, 16mm, 20mm TV Naglers, 24mm, 32mm, 40mm TV WFs, 55mm TV Plossl.
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Don Allen
sage
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Charleston, SC
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Time to corner the market on used 6" F8 achros....
Edited by Don Allen (10/12/09 01:44 PM)
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Doug76
Postmaster
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 5574
Loc: SE Louisiana, future Texan
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I already have mine, but I am satisfied with the existing lens, and unless the new replacement is in the $1000 range, I will not be changing it out, I'm afraid.
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Doug
Truckstop Astronomer
The Universe, the light of God, in all it's majesty
6 achro refractors, 50mm-150mm
1 apo refractor, 90mm
1 SCT, 8 inch
UO Abbe Volcano Tops
Faworski Ortho's
Panoptic 24mm
Carton 100mm f/13 under construction
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Jeff B
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/30/06
Posts: 679
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This has been an interesting thread.
I hope Markus can pull it off.
Let's do some math (stop complaining): Say 10,000 of the 6" F8's have been sold in one form or another. Say 2% of those get retrofitted. Well, that's 200 lens/cell sets. I can see why Markus is interested.
Another thought. My impression is that the biggest problem with the old Meade EDs was the cell design, both mechanically & thermally. So why not retrofit them with new cells. Send the old lens/cell in and get back a new (and hopefully improved)assembly ready to plug & play?
Jeff
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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 13461
Loc: Oort Cloud
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IIRC, Markus had previously mentioned ~$2000 for a 6" f/8 ED lens in cell. That was for FPL51.
If the Chinese source for that optic is "questionable" and LZOS is now being tapped for an OK4 doublet that's reported to be more expensive (but of more reliable quality), then $1000 looks to be a pipe dream.
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A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife, two curious cats and one sadly departed.
"Semper ubi sub ubi"
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Doug76
Postmaster
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 5574
Loc: SE Louisiana, future Texan
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I was afraid of that. Ah well...
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Doug
Truckstop Astronomer
The Universe, the light of God, in all it's majesty
6 achro refractors, 50mm-150mm
1 apo refractor, 90mm
1 SCT, 8 inch
UO Abbe Volcano Tops
Faworski Ortho's
Panoptic 24mm
Carton 100mm f/13 under construction
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Patricko
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 1534
Loc: SE New Mexico USA
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Ummm...a used Meade 152ED or 178ED is looking better.
--------------------
Clear skies,
Patrick
INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION
60MM TELESCOPE CLUB!
"You can always have better, but will you ever be happy with what you have?" - Me, myself, and I
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AlienRatDog
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: Ann Arbor
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Now I was thinking I could build a nice OTA around it...maybe be ok to have a super quality 6" APO for under $4k....
--------------------
Abe -- the poor PhD student
-----------------------------------------
12" LX200GPS-SMT w/UHTC
Explore Scientific 127mm Triplet ED APO
Losmandy GM8 EQ mount
Nagler 31mm, 17mm, 13mm, 12mm, 9mm, 2.5x Powermate
12X50 Binoculars
Understanding wife
One beautiful daughter, Emma-Rose (born 7-29-2009)
Twin boys (cats), half Persian/half Alley Cat but all Vermin!
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skyjim
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/13/07
Posts: 592
Loc: Long Island, NY
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$1K for a 6"F8 ed lens seems like a pipe dream to me, even $1.5K would be to low. If a scope came out from china it would be more like #3.5K or maybe more for the whole ota. I think more like $2k would be closer to market value for either russian or china made lens. I think if you could buy a 120Ed lens in cell from lets say Synta it would be more like $1k for the lens in its cell by itself so lets look at reality here.
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Ioptron MC152 6"Rumak MCT,Skywatcher 8"SCT
Skywatcher 10" Truss Tube Dob
Astro-Tech AT80FD w/WO/TMB co-designed Fluorite Doublet,Orion Sirius EQ,CG5 EQ mounts
Edited by skyjim (10/12/09 09:17 PM)
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Bill Cowles
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 1045
Loc: Utah
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Same here ,Doug.
Bill
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Lunt LS60TS50DS/B1200/FT (on order)
TV Gensis/Solarmax 60 filter
PST DS/Herschel Wedge/C4-R
C6-R /Atlas Goto/Moonlite CF2
12" LightBridge/Round Table
MCHP/8" Orion OTA/Ultima 2000
10" Discovery /Celestron SE-4
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Don Allen
sage
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Charleston, SC
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Even if the lens cell is 2K, you are spending $2800 to get a 150mm scope that corrects as well as my 4" Lomo which is dang good. For some people it will be clearly worth it. A TAK FS-152 just sold on the other site for $5000. The LZOS is probably close to 85%-90% of the TAK doublet. Not bad for $3000 or so. Put the difference into a new mount.
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Don
SV 102A F/8.7 Lomo Doublet Apo SN 22
LXD75
35 Pan, 17T4, 7 Nag, 3-6 Nag Zoom
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Even if the lens cell is 2K, you are spending $2800 to get a 150mm scope that corrects as well as my 4" Lomo which is dang good.
Those were something like F/8.6, weren't they? To achieve the same correction with the same design in a 6" version you'd have to go to F/13. Refractors just don't scale up well. The bigger they are, the harder it is to make them perform.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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Doug76
Postmaster
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 5574
Loc: SE Louisiana, future Texan
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Depends on your definition of performance. If it's the CA, I'm not so concerned, if all else is excellent, as it is with my C6R. I would trade it out for an ED objective, but only if it were as good in the areas other then CA, and only if it were reasonably priced.
I've said it often enough, CA is not the be all/end all of a good refractor, and if you discount one just because it has some CA, and ignore it's other attributes, you are shortchanging yourself, and IMO giving an undeserved rap on the design.
The CA in my C6R borders on a blacklight type appearance, and is not "a bright blue fringe" around bright objects, and is certainly not a hindrance to my enjoyment of this fine, large achromat.
--------------------
Doug
Truckstop Astronomer
The Universe, the light of God, in all it's majesty
6 achro refractors, 50mm-150mm
1 apo refractor, 90mm
1 SCT, 8 inch
UO Abbe Volcano Tops
Faworski Ortho's
Panoptic 24mm
Carton 100mm f/13 under construction
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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 392
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Hi Guys
I have so far 2 quotes from China for big serial prodctuion ( means lowest prices )
a, with FPL51 or Chinese FK61 glas for $ 1,500 , if I ad shipping, importdutie , 15% profit for me to test all optics I come out at at $ 1,945, guys want to buy from our dealers, so we must add another 20 % dealerprofit and we come out at a retail of $ 2,435
b, with FPL 53 at $ 1,800 plus all cost and profits we come out to $ 2,900
I hope you understand that we have to have a little profit and thats really not much compare to the profit you pay on normal chinese products or other products
But this lens will have my name on it , so not be troubled from my brain and you my customers , I wan to sell you quality , therefore I asked now LZOS
I hope LZOS will give me a price not much higher then the chinese FPL53 , but we will see
still if you take the chinese tube plus our lens plus new focuser, you can get a highest quality 6" douplet for around $ 4,000 and thats what I try to reach .
LZOS has for me the advantage, that we do not need to pre finance the production and we do not need to buy big quantitys for each shipment. Chinese alwayws want to sell you per contract hundrets of lenses and my experience with them tell me it would be a nightmare of testing work, while I fully trust LZOS.
Even for the cheaper offers from China , you will ask by all rights for a very well working product and not for a lens which suffers from all kind of optical problems, like pinching in winter, decentering and showing on axis coma or astigmatism.
so now you have at least a idea what is coming out
thanks
Markus
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AlienRatDog
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: Ann Arbor
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Honestly, those were the prices I was thinking, I am up for it (for at least the FPL53 doublet).
--------------------
Abe -- the poor PhD student
-----------------------------------------
12" LX200GPS-SMT w/UHTC
Explore Scientific 127mm Triplet ED APO
Losmandy GM8 EQ mount
Nagler 31mm, 17mm, 13mm, 12mm, 9mm, 2.5x Powermate
12X50 Binoculars
Understanding wife
One beautiful daughter, Emma-Rose (born 7-29-2009)
Twin boys (cats), half Persian/half Alley Cat but all Vermin!
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KerryR
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 1172
Loc: SW Michigan
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Guess I'd be willing to pay that much too, just to know the lens was good-- as I mentioned before, the old Meades had a fair amount of variability and a tricky lens cell.
I've already added a Moonlite and Chromacorr. While I like the Chromacorr, a good ED doublet would be superior. My C-corr is a bit of a bandaid-- it corrects the overcorrected stock lens, but not (close to) perfectly...
--------------------
Kerry
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snart
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 596
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
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Those prices are pretty much what I envisioned too. I would be interested in the FPL-53 or an OK4 offering but I think I would pass on the FPL-51 offering. Even with FPL-51 the telescope would vastly improved over the existing f/8 achro, but I like just a bit more color correction than what the FPL-51 could offer.
--------------------
Celestron C100ED w/ Moonlite focuser
6" f/9.25 Newtonian - GEM
Meade 10" f/10 Schmidt-Cassegrain
18" f/4.5 Newtonian - Dob
4mm & 5mm TMB SMCs, 6mm, 7mm, 9mm, 12mm UO HD Orthos, 4.8mm, 7mm, 11mm, 16mm, 20mm TV Naglers, 24mm, 32mm, 40mm TV WFs, 55mm TV Plossl.
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Don Allen
sage
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Charleston, SC
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Maybe I need to stick to the subjects I have some clue about.
--------------------
Don
SV 102A F/8.7 Lomo Doublet Apo SN 22
LXD75
35 Pan, 17T4, 7 Nag, 3-6 Nag Zoom
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RodgerHouTex
member
Reged: 06/02/09
Posts: 44
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Markus,
I like the idea of the FPL-53 from LZOS because I have a Meade LXD55 6" f/8 Achromat and would definately replace the lens in it if you started producing these for the $2900 you mentioned.
However, have you considered a 6" LZOS FPL-53 doublet OTA? I'm not crazy about the quality of my Meade tube assy. The dew shield is particularly annoying not to mention the focuser. If you could produce a quality 6" OTA for around $4000 I think we (your customers) would beat a path to your door. Look at the success Orion has had with their EON refractors. I own both an EON 80 and 120 and they are fantastic scopes. Not to mention they are about half of what a Tak, etc. cost. You would be alone in offering a quality 6" Apo doublet. I think you could do quite well.
Rodger
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Gaz O'C
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/02/05
Posts: 1330
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Does anyone know whether these will be in the collimatable or fixed cell format? Theres are 6" f8s with both types of cell.....
--------------------
14" f4.5 Dob
10" Meade SCT
180mm f15 Mak/Cass
127mm f12 Mak/Cass
150mm f5 refractor
ED100
EQ6 Skyscan
HEQ5
EQ2
http://stargazerslounge.co.uk/
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AlienRatDog
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: Ann Arbor
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If that happened, a whole OTA for under $4k....bye bye everything I own...lol
--------------------
Abe -- the poor PhD student
-----------------------------------------
12" LX200GPS-SMT w/UHTC
Explore Scientific 127mm Triplet ED APO
Losmandy GM8 EQ mount
Nagler 31mm, 17mm, 13mm, 12mm, 9mm, 2.5x Powermate
12X50 Binoculars
Understanding wife
One beautiful daughter, Emma-Rose (born 7-29-2009)
Twin boys (cats), half Persian/half Alley Cat but all Vermin!
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BluewaterObserva
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 4968
Loc: Zuni Mtns, NM
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Sounds like we may have a rash of 6" F/8 achro lenses in cell available on the used market soon?
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snart
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 596
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Does anyone know whether these will be in the collimatable or fixed cell format?
I am sure that the cells will be adjustable. I can't see APM making anything on the cheap and for people to be able to replace their existing lens with these they will definitely need to be able collimate the telescope.
--------------------
Celestron C100ED w/ Moonlite focuser
6" f/9.25 Newtonian - GEM
Meade 10" f/10 Schmidt-Cassegrain
18" f/4.5 Newtonian - Dob
4mm & 5mm TMB SMCs, 6mm, 7mm, 9mm, 12mm UO HD Orthos, 4.8mm, 7mm, 11mm, 16mm, 20mm TV Naglers, 24mm, 32mm, 40mm TV WFs, 55mm TV Plossl.
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Doug76
Postmaster
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 5574
Loc: SE Louisiana, future Texan
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Agreed
--------------------
Doug
Truckstop Astronomer
The Universe, the light of God, in all it's majesty
6 achro refractors, 50mm-150mm
1 apo refractor, 90mm
1 SCT, 8 inch
UO Abbe Volcano Tops
Faworski Ortho's
Panoptic 24mm
Carton 100mm f/13 under construction
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ValeryD
Vendor (Aries)
Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 343
Loc: Kherson, Ukraine.
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Quote:
Guess I'd be willing to pay that much too, just to know the lens was good-- as I mentioned before, the old Meades had a fair amount of variability and a tricky lens cell.
I've already added a Moonlite and Chromacorr. While I like the Chromacorr, a good ED doublet would be superior. My C-corr is a bit of a bandaid-- it corrects the overcorrected stock lens, but not (close to) perfectly...
Post deleted by moderator per TOS.
Edited by LLEEGE (10/13/09 07:20 PM)
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Texas
member
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 25
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Bill Burgess announced essentially the same thing about three weeks ago. Replacement ED glass for 5" and 6" achromats along with announcements for several large ED scopes including a 7"ED for about $3k and a 210mm achro guaranteed 1/6 wave or better. The glass is going to be Chinese, but after reading the threads on A-Mart, I am of the impression that APM is talking to them as well.
--------------------
Typical stargazer. Too much money spent on too much stuff. This "hobby" has gotten out of hand.
Mewlon 250
AP Traveler
TV 85
Edited by Texas (10/13/09 07:42 PM)
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johnnyha
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/12/06
Posts: 1141
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It makes sense if you already have a 6" F/8 OTA that you like. A lot of the price quotes on this thread are including $450 for the OTA but really, if you already have such a scope, there is no out-of-pocket expense other than the lens. Especially if you have a tricked-out OTA with Moonlite focuser and the like already, this makes sense.
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Johnny
Spicewood, TX
Sherman Oaks, CA
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alfi1966
super member
Reged: 08/24/09
Posts: 119
Loc: norway
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hi
i already have the ota, and a moonlite, and would really love the oportunity to have a well corrected 6"ED, there isent many to choose from, at a price that "normal" people can afford.
alfi
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skywatcher 200mm f/5 newt, 150mm f/8.3 refractor w/ moonlite upgrade, Skywatcher EVOSTAR ED80 Pro DS,Meade Series 5000 80mm Triplet, eq6 pro synscan, eq5, canon 450d unmodded, canon 1000d modded, TS duomount and LVI Smartguider.
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Don Allen
sage
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 322
Loc: Charleston, SC
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My experience with Burgess is he talks about products which never quite make it to market. It would be nice to see something like this from him. 
--------------------
Don
SV 102A F/8.7 Lomo Doublet Apo SN 22
LXD75
35 Pan, 17T4, 7 Nag, 3-6 Nag Zoom
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alfi1966
super member
Reged: 08/24/09
Posts: 119
Loc: norway
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it would have been nice if Synta themselves would have started producing a lenscell replacement, a well corrected one.
if you see all the good feedback there have been, and is, of their pro / equinox / eon series, they surely could make a good lenscell, at a good price. dont you think?
alfi
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skywatcher 200mm f/5 newt, 150mm f/8.3 refractor w/ moonlite upgrade, Skywatcher EVOSTAR ED80 Pro DS,Meade Series 5000 80mm Triplet, eq6 pro synscan, eq5, canon 450d unmodded, canon 1000d modded, TS duomount and LVI Smartguider.
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CESDewar
GorillAstronomer
Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 2069
Loc: Morganton, GA, USA
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Quote:
If that happened, a whole OTA for under $4k....bye bye everything I own...lol
I agree. A 152mm ED Doublet of good quality in an OTA for $3,995 would sure get my attention and those of a lot of other people too!!
--------------------
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Texas
member
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 25
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I've heard mention of Bill's dreams in the past, but delivery of the glass for the first 210mm has taken place. Apparently it tested at 1/8 wave and customer #1 is happy. I ordered mine some time ago, and in truth there have been delays. I just paid for the glass and expect the completed scope just after the first of the year. I don't question that Bill Burgess has been guilty of too many dreams, but on the other hand I don't ever recall anyone ever saying that they didn't get good value for their money. Besides, Bill has been doing business with China for awhile now; his time may have come.
--------------------
Typical stargazer. Too much money spent on too much stuff. This "hobby" has gotten out of hand.
Mewlon 250
AP Traveler
TV 85
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Jeff B
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/30/06
Posts: 679
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Quote:
I've already added a Moonlite and Chromacorr. While I like the Chromacorr, a good ED doublet would be superior. My C-corr is a bit of a bandaid-- it corrects the overcorrected stock lens, but not (close to) perfectly...
The chromacor is no bandaid. It just offers a different set of trade offs and I find the economics of it compelling, especially with 8" and larger achromats with focal ratios F12 and slower.
I've found that when properly set up the chromacor has visually superior color correction to the doublet "APOs" I've used, over an approximate .05-.2 degree field of view, depending on the F stop/aperture combination used. Where it begins to suffer in comparison is off axis with lateral color. And even the LC can be mitaged to some degree if that of the eyepiece compliments the LC of the Chromacor. Further, I've found that I can also mitigate to a degree atmospheric dispersion color.
I've a rather good 4" F10 Celestron achromat that I recently tried my Chromcors on. Oh, my. It was essentially color perfect up to at least 200X, much better than what I remember of my 102 ED Meade, which was really very good. Also I've stopped my 11" F12 D&G down to 8.5" to yeild an F16 focal ratio. Another major "Oh my" with similar results.
That being said, I'd love to have a 6" F8 FPL53 or similar doublet. What a nice, user friendly package that could be.
Jeff
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astrokwang2
super member
Reged: 05/06/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Florida
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I would probably purchase the FPL53 version at those prices.
If I could buy the lens in a collimatable cell, I would definitely buy it.
--------------------
18" Obsession
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prova
member
Reged: 05/14/08
Posts: 98
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When is this due for sale? And are there any further specs on it?
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alfi1966
super member
Reged: 08/24/09
Posts: 119
Loc: norway
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hi
i wrote to a contact in Synta, and asked the development department there look at the possibility of making a ED replacement lenscell, and gave them link to this thread, so they could check out what people want, and what other producers are looking into producing.
so it may be a good thing to write, and say what we want, and maybe what we are willing to pay for it.
synta have shown with their ED series that they can produce good lenscells, so maybe this would be something they would consider producing, if they feel the market is ready for it.
alfi
--------------------
skywatcher 200mm f/5 newt, 150mm f/8.3 refractor w/ moonlite upgrade, Skywatcher EVOSTAR ED80 Pro DS,Meade Series 5000 80mm Triplet, eq6 pro synscan, eq5, canon 450d unmodded, canon 1000d modded, TS duomount and LVI Smartguider.
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KerryR
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 1172
Loc: SW Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
I've already added a Moonlite and Chromacorr. While I like the Chromacorr, a good ED doublet would be superior. My C-corr is a bit of a bandaid-- it corrects the overcorrected stock lens, but not (close to) perfectly...
The chromacor is no bandaid. It just offers a different set of trade offs and I find the economics of it compelling, especially with 8" and larger achromats with focal ratios F12 and slower.
I've found that when properly set up the chromacor has visually superior color correction to the doublet "APOs" I've used, over an approximate .05-.2 degree field of view, depending on the F stop/aperture combination used. Where it begins to suffer in comparison is off axis with lateral color. And even the LC can be mitaged to some degree if that of the eyepiece compliments the LC of the Chromacor. Further, I've found that I can also mitigate to a degree atmospheric dispersion color.
I've a rather good 4" F10 Celestron achromat that I recently tried my Chromcors on. Oh, my. It was essentially color perfect up to at least 200X, much better than what I remember of my 102 ED Meade, which was really very good. Also I've stopped my 11" F12 D&G down to 8.5" to yeild an F16 focal ratio. Another major "Oh my" with similar results.
That being said, I'd love to have a 6" F8 FPL53 or similar doublet. What a nice, user friendly package that could be.
Jeff
Well, on my scope it's certainly a bandaid. But not because there's anything wrong with the product, but rather because a really good match is tough to get. Add to this the difficulty in putting a wave-front accuracy to the star test of an achro, and things get sketchy...
It's a good product, but, if you need under or overcorrection built in, as is common with these Synta's, a really good match can be tough-- especially in light of current C-corr availability.
Make no mistake: I'm not bashing the product. I'm saying that an approximately matched Chromacorr on a lens that probably has other issues (fairly common on these Syntas) is very much a compromise, and inferior to a truly well made lens, achro or ed.
Off-axis performance is a key issue for those of us who use un-driven mounts. My Orion ED100 and old Meade ED127 perform much better off-axis than my C6 and C-corr.
I think the C-corr is a great product, and I wish it was still easily available. But it's not, and Vallery appears to have no intent to begin making these again, and hasn't made them for quite some time.
--------------------
Kerry
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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 13461
Loc: Oort Cloud
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Quote:
hi
i wrote to a contact in Synta, and asked the development department there look at the possibility of making a ED replacement lenscell, and gave them link to this thread, so they could check out what people want, and what other producers are looking into producing.
so it may be a good thing to write, and say what we want, and maybe what we are willing to pay for it.
synta have shown with their ED series that they can produce good lenscells, so maybe this would be something they would consider producing, if they feel the market is ready for it.
alfi
Good move, alfi!
It never hurts to let a vendor know there's a demand for a particular product.
The worst they can say is, "Thanks for the suggestion, but no...".
--------------------
A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife, two curious cats and one sadly departed.
"Semper ubi sub ubi"
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KerryR
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 1172
Loc: SW Michigan
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Vallery,
If you didn't notice, your post got deleted by moderators for TOS violations.
I'd like to get your input on the subject if possible, including your response to my comments on the C-corr.
Would it be possible for you to try again, maybe re-phrasing to avoid TOS violations?
It's also be nice to know if there are any plans to start making C-corrs again...
--------------------
Kerry
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alfi1966
super member
Reged: 08/24/09
Posts: 119
Loc: norway
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hi clive
yes that was my thinking to, and maybe we are lucky, and they find that there are a market for this product.
it would have been great to get a replacement lenscell, well corrected, at a price i could afford.
alfi
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skywatcher 200mm f/5 newt, 150mm f/8.3 refractor w/ moonlite upgrade, Skywatcher EVOSTAR ED80 Pro DS,Meade Series 5000 80mm Triplet, eq6 pro synscan, eq5, canon 450d unmodded, canon 1000d modded, TS duomount and LVI Smartguider.
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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 392
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Hi All,
when we do the cell , we make it a bit multipurpose , so we will offer with adapters of choice, either for old or new Synta or for 6" Meade Achromats , but also for ATM people to build here own tube , most flexicable
when I come back from LZOS at 30.october I shall have most news in my hands
thanks
Markus
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Doug76
Postmaster
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 5574
Loc: SE Louisiana, future Texan
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Thanks for the info, and the update Markus.
--------------------
Doug
Truckstop Astronomer
The Universe, the light of God, in all it's majesty
6 achro refractors, 50mm-150mm
1 apo refractor, 90mm
1 SCT, 8 inch
UO Abbe Volcano Tops
Faworski Ortho's
Panoptic 24mm
Carton 100mm f/13 under construction
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alan_nasu
member
Reged: 10/14/08
Posts: 11
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Hello Markus.
Any update on this?
Quote:
Hi All,
when we do the cell , we make it a bit multipurpose , so we will offer with adapters of choice, either for old or new Synta or for 6" Meade Achromats , but also for ATM people to build here own tube , most flexicable
when I come back from LZOS at 30.october I shall have most news in my hands
thanks
Markus
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peleuba
sage
Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 292
Loc: Southern PA
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Quote:
Yeah, you’re right. I thought that OK4’s Abbe number was in the low 80’s but it is actually 92.05 making it very close to FPL-53! So after some quick number crunching pitted with some guestimation I would say that these 152mm f/8 doublets should be only slightly on the high side of being color free. I would suspect that some color will be visible, especially at higher powers, but the color should be very well suppressed (I’m guessing at about 33% to 50% better than the Meade 152ED).
To put this thread in perspective I think the new lens would be equivalent to a 6" Fluorite doublet which will have noticeable color. depending on mating element and any touch-up, it could be slightly better or slightly worse. But definitely in the neighborhood.
Below is a star test image from the bench on a TAK FS152 that I used to own. Lots of color. But at precise focus the image was excellent, just slightly warm looking. The 1/6 wave of Astig is not seen when the scope is in the field pointing up - its an artifact of the test stand.
--------------------
Paul Leuba
TEC160FL #025
StarMaster 14.5 goto/track
Portaball-8
Canon 10X30 IS Binocs
Sets of Nagler T4's, T5's, T6's, TAK LE's, TV Plossls
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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 392
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Hello
I am back from Russia since some days, but ultrabusy to get scopes out around the world.
The first result is negative , yes LZOS could do the design we have in mind, but the lens cost would be only 25% cheaper then the triplet , so price would not be even close to my thoughts.
Now I am working on a next idea using FPL53 , but I waiting some prices from LZOS
I lam leaving in 2 days to a 2 weeks vacation, after that I will work full power on the 150 mm doublet solution
clear skies
Markus
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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 13461
Loc: Oort Cloud
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Quote:
To put this thread in perspective I think the new lens would be equivalent to a 6" Fluorite doublet which will have noticeable color. depending on mating element and any touch-up, it could be slightly better or slightly worse. But definitely in the neighborhood.
Below is a star test image from the bench on a TAK FS152 that I used to own. Lots of color. But at precise focus the image was excellent, just slightly warm looking. The 1/6 wave of Astig is not seen when the scope is in the field pointing up - its an artifact of the test stand.
Thanks for the insights, Paul and for posting those images taken with your FS152.
Very good info.
--------------------
A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife, two curious cats and one sadly departed.
"Semper ubi sub ubi"
|
deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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I am totally down with those prices! I would be a shoo-in as a customer in case I could not find an Meade ED that I liked.
-drl
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snart
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 596
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
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Maybe the better solution here would be to make a smaller diameter ED doublet or normal glass triplet insert that is placed just ahead of the focuser such on Roland Christen’s tri-space corrector design. This would limit the corrector to one specific model telescope such as the Celestron, but the cost of it should be reasonable and the performance could be outstanding!
--------------------
Celestron C100ED w/ Moonlite focuser
6" f/9.25 Newtonian - GEM
Meade 10" f/10 Schmidt-Cassegrain
18" f/4.5 Newtonian - Dob
4mm & 5mm TMB SMCs, 6mm, 7mm, 9mm, 12mm UO HD Orthos, 4.8mm, 7mm, 11mm, 16mm, 20mm TV Naglers, 24mm, 32mm, 40mm TV WFs, 55mm TV Plossl.
|
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