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Equipment Discussions >> Refractors

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4194628 - 11/18/10 01:59 PM

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbarchive/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1550888/page/5/view/collapsed/sb/7/o/all/fpart/2/vc/1

"Be wary of the TOA-150. It is going through some growing pains, though the more recent samples might have fixed the original problems with the new lens cell design. I use one of the more recent samples, and it's exquisite. We (www.3rf.org) went through three early samples as well prior to getting one that works "good enough." So, we now have two TOA-150s, and the first sample isn't quite up to the level of the second one. Likewise, I know two other people who suffered similar problems.

As I said, recent samples seem to be producing fewer issues, which I guess we should expect with any new Tak design...the TOA-130 had similar problems early on."

"There have also been problems with early TOA-150's collimation due to the cells not fully set inplace. But my personal preference is air spaced glass. I also agree both TEC and TAK give great views."

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbarchive/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=refractors&Number=982366&Forum=f54&Words=TOA-150&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=981199&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=5415&daterange=1&newerval=10&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post982366

" Jay Ballauer had a post about his a few weeks ago. I guess his had some problems so they sent it back to Japan so they could fix it. Probably a fluke, I'm sure. Even Tiger Woods hits it in the water sometimes...



Actually, that was the first of our (3RF) TOA-150s to be delivered. That particular scope went to David Ryle in Wichita Falls. It had an optical alignment issue which is susposedly fixed and waiting for David in Houston. I took the instrument down for him to be fixed, but he'll have to pick it up...we aren't going to risk having it shipped.

Of course, the first views, with the alignment issues, looks like pure poo. Hopefully, the "real" TOA-150 will look much better.

But I'll say this...I'm susposed getting my TOA-150 this month, after having waited 18 months...and having fully paid for the scope. I'm tired of getting pushed back on it. If I get pushed back again, I'll ask for a refund. Besides, after looking through my first TEC 160FL last month, I'd rather be waiting on that scope. I doubt very seriously that the TOA can compare with it."

If you need more, I'm sure I can find additional reports. I'll add that I bet I can find more reports of troubled TOA lens cells than you can find reports of problems with lost oil in an oil-spaced objective.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/18/10 02:14 PM)


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Hypnotist
sage


Reged: 08/29/10

Loc: San Diego, CA, US
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4194792 - 11/18/10 02:58 PM

Yeah I get your point. But that stuff is only on the TOA 150, not the TOA 130.

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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194797 - 11/18/10 03:00 PM

Quote:

for viewing but also for imaging (I have a Canon EOS 5D Mark II).




Go for a new TOA-130F with 67FF and you will be happy .


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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194804 - 11/18/10 03:04 PM

Quote:

Yeah I get your point. But that stuff is only on the TOA 150, not the TOA 130.




Yeah Yeah... TOA series has a lot of problems... I like to hear this by competitors .


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4194811 - 11/18/10 03:06 PM

TEC owners proclaim "Buy TEC!" Tak owners proclaim "Buy Tak!" it sounds like a happy outcome is in your future no matter which path you take. (buy the TEC!!!)

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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4194871 - 11/18/10 03:29 PM

Quote:

TEC owners proclaim "Buy TEC!" Tak owners proclaim "Buy Tak!" it sounds like a happy outcome is in your future no matter which path you take. (buy the TEC!!!)




Mike, Did I ever devaluate about TEC?

Here someone is writing about rumors, or a defective sample (s), or ... solved Tak the problem on the sample? or what are we writing about? about a sample from six year ago? Are we misinforming?


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194905 - 11/18/10 03:40 PM

You seem to have missed one of the quotations.

It specifically included TOA-130s.

I think this is what happened. The TOA glass is heavy. Takahashi underestimated the cell requirements in the early examples of TOA scopes, and there were a fair number of problems with lens cell alignment early on.

I suspect that Takahashi has adjusted its design to address this oversight in the original design, and the new ones are more robust. That said, I wouldn't buy one unless I was a diehard imager as the design cools slowly and is ultra-finicky with respect to lens spacing, squaring and alignment, with the main payback being better color correction.

As jay52 says, if a TOA goes out of alignment, images look like "poo". My scopes travel the wilds and I don't image, so I'd take a TEC or an Astro-Physics any day over a TOA out of fragility fears.

Only you can decide whether your intended use benefits from the extra color correction and you're confident that these aren't more fragile than other alternatives. Of course, if you stay home mostly, the latter probably isn't worth worrying about.

I have had Taks and still have an FS-78. I also have a TEC 140. I considered a TOA-150 when I bought the TEC, but the issues above steered me away from the TOAs. I like Taks, TECs, TVs, A-Ps, etc. I have, however, noted some variance in quality unit to unit between Taks and TVs that I haven't noticed between different A-P units and different TEC units. Not specifically TOAs, but certainly among FS and earlier series scopes. For example, My FS-78 is very nice, but not as nice as a club mate's FS-78 and I've seen some very average FS-128s and FS-152s as well as some excellent ones.

In other words, I'm not a flaming fan boy of either company. My home page doesn't have a complete history of Takahashi scopes. I call 'em like I see 'em based on my own use of scopes from both makers and the first hand reports of buyers here on CN and elsewhere.

There's a tendency for folks who spend their rent money on "Brand X" or "Brand Y" to start defining themselves by what they own and to deny pretty credible data that they perceive as negative toward their chosen brand.

You'll notice that several of the folks suggesting that you'll be happy with either or recommending the TEC have owned both TECs and Taks, whereas the most rabid TOA folks seem to be Tak purists.

Do your own homework and I'm sure you'll end up with a very nice scope no matter whose label is on it.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/18/10 03:53 PM)


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4194916 - 11/18/10 03:45 PM

> Mike, Did I ever devaluate about TEC?

I am not misinforming of anything. My post was a post of encouragement -- that either path is likely to have a happy outcome.

FWIW, I think Jim is right. But I may be biased by having been through the experience of having a high-end air spaced triplet knocked out of alignment during shipping.


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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4194938 - 11/18/10 03:53 PM

Quote:


I think this is what happened.




Ok, you think...

Quote:



I suspect that




well, you suspect... nice.

Quote:


As jay52 says, if a TOA goes out of alignment




If goes, but if not goes no problem... ok.

Quote:

Only you can decide whether your intended use benefits from the extra color correction and you are confident that these are not more fragile than other alternatives. Of course, if you stay home mostly, the latter probably isn't worth worrying about.




OK also the TOA is fragile

PS: I forgot it, thanks for visiting my webpage.


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Ziggy943
Post Laureate


Reged: 08/11/06

Loc: Utah
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4195014 - 11/18/10 04:26 PM

Get the TEC 140. Dennis DiCicco was almost right. There is a visible difference between the 140 and 160 TEC's on more than deep sky. You see the difference in the fine detail. The same would be true for the 10mm difference between the 130 and the 140. At the optical excellence of these manufacturers, the size advantage is what counts, IMHO.

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Hypnotist
sage


Reged: 08/29/10

Loc: San Diego, CA, US
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Ziggy943]
      #4195029 - 11/18/10 04:35 PM

I'd like to spend the same time imaging and viewing. What do you think about that, still the TEC or the Tak?
Bart


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DeanS
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Central Kentucky
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4195039 - 11/18/10 04:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I understand that the TOAs (at least the 150s) have been susceptible to misalignment due to jarring. In fact, I think Takahashi made changes to the TOA-150 cell early on to combat this. You're talking big, heavy lens cells with large (glass-insulated) air pockets between them. The difficulty of execution of this design was undertaken for one purpose - color correction for imaging. I suspect the TOAs will be more apt to come out of alignment over time as a result, but who knows.





I wonder where did you find information regarding this..."misalignment" issue.
As a member of Yahoo Tak users, and Takahashi community on Facebook...I have never ever heard a TOA-150 user complaining about lens misalignment.
Please provide "evidence" (a link or something), I'm interesting in learning more.

Teo

---------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-13OS
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow




Not sure if I ever posted my issue on the Tak group, but.....

I bought my toa-150 used, found out later that evening, and 7 hours away, that it was really far out of collimation. Was sent back to Art and Fred at TNR. They said the cell was bad, replaced it with a brand new one direct from Japan, and only charged a small amount for the labor. Luckily the guy I bought it from stood behind it and covered all the expenses of which shipping was the biggest. Now I have basically a brand new scope, particularly since I upgraded to the B model focuser.

So yes it has happened in the past to more than just me but I believe Tak as taken care of what ever caused the problem.


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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: DeanS]
      #4195061 - 11/18/10 04:47 PM

TIC - TAC - TOE


/Ira


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LLEEGE
True Blue
*****

Reged: 03/03/05

Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4195154 - 11/18/10 05:32 PM

Quote:

I'd like to spend the same time imaging and viewing. What do you think about that, still the TEC or the Tak?
Bart


You can get a new 140 w/ flattener for about the same cost as the TOA with a comparable focuser. The TEC will be less demanding on the mount as well. I'd opt for the TEC but either will give you a quality scope.

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Ziggy943
Post Laureate


Reged: 08/11/06

Loc: Utah
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #4195219 - 11/18/10 05:58 PM

Ditto.

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4195224 - 11/18/10 06:00 PM

If it's 50-50 and you don't plan on heading out to the darkness of Death Valley on unpaved roads, I'd probably go Tak. If it's 50-50 and you plan on schlepping the scope around quite a bit by auto, I might lean TEC. Unfortunately I think the *perfect* available scope for you is the TEC 160FL, but it's pretty expensive compared to the TOA-130 and TEC 140.

Here's an interesting article on the TEC 140:

http://www.brayebrookobservatory.org/BrayObsWebSite/HOMEPAGE/TEC140_980.html

Some of the juicy bits:

"The top three mid-aperture visual apos I would say are the TEC140 f/7 (1/55 wave RMS e-line oil-spaced triplet Strehl 99%), followed closely by the TMB 130 f/6 (1/30th wave RMS e-line air-spaced triplet Strehl 95.8%) and the Takahashi OTA130 f/7.7 (1/28th wave RMS e-line air-spaced Ortho-Apochromat triplet Strehl 95.5%)."

"An air-spaced OG gives the designer four more degrees of freedom, than an oil-spaced (and hence essentially surface contact) design, but there is inevitably a lot more work involved in figuring all six independent surfaces. Contact designs are easier to test and therefore less time consuming to figure accurately. There will also obviously be no scatter or possible internal reflection within a contact triplet whereas there will be at least some within an air-spaced triplet. All these things in themselves may be nit-picking niceties, but summed, they no doubt account for the marginally enhanced performance of Yuri Petrunin's TEC140/980."

"Q2). How does trading off color for sharpness work (how can
optimizing for whiter images create softer views)?

- The color balance was chosen according to the relative sensitivity of the human eye for visual spectral range (450-650nm), with weight coefficients for each color according to human eye relative sensitivity for these colors. Since the color sensitivity of our eyes corresponds with our nearest star radiation intensity (see Color diagram in the same file) - such optimization gives the highest Strehl (best MTF) or in the other words sharpest images and best contrast on planets and the Moon. Also no problem on deep sky, but with slight violet halo around bright white-blue stars like Vega (see Vega's intensity diagram in the same file), Deneb, that radiate most of their energy in 300-400nm range - for which our design is less corrected (1/2 wave for 436nm)."

"To change design to air-spaced and use two ED glasses - that can make even better correction (price goes up - no question), but we would prefer to keep ED glass (that, BTW, is 3-4 times softer and not as chemically stable as crowns... do you live near the sea? ) between two crowns."

Good stuff.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/18/10 06:02 PM)


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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4195466 - 11/18/10 07:47 PM

Unpaved road or paved road can vary the final decission?

Jim, Seriously? I am really surprised.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4195477 - 11/18/10 07:55 PM

Yes, I'm quite serious or else I wouldn't have posted it.

"Not sure if I ever posted my issue on the Tak group, but.....

I bought my toa-150 used, found out later that evening, and 7 hours away, that it was really far out of collimation. Was sent back to Art and Fred at TNR. They said the cell was bad, replaced it with a brand new one direct from Japan, and only charged a small amount for the labor. Luckily the guy I bought it from stood behind it and covered all the expenses of which shipping was the biggest. Now I have basically a brand new scope, particularly since I upgraded to the B model focuser.

So yes it has happened in the past to more than just me but I believe Tak as taken care of what ever caused the problem."

That's the exclusive US importer advising that the cell in an older TOA was bad and needed replacement. Obviously the heavy TOA OG required a sturdier cell than its designers originally thought. So much so that they needed to redesign the cell. Kudos to everyone involved (Tak, TNR, the seller) for taking care of the problem, but for this kind of money and the amount of bumping and thumping my astro-travel entails, I wouldn't (and didn't) go TOA personally.

If I had a nice home observatory and imaged a lot, I'd have no trouble with a TOA. You're welcome to have a different opinion, but I think denying that Tak has had some issues with the cell design on the TOAs borders on being disingenuous at this point.

Regards,

Jim


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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4196131 - 11/19/10 05:10 AM

Jim, Once again...

Are your words sincere for actual situation on TOA's cells? or, you are talking about few bad samples? when this happened? 5 years ago? has tak now solved the problem? if ever would was on all TOAs...

How many cases really you know about? one case? 1000 cases? one case solved by charging a small amount for the labor. No more? even for more, you know about some unsolved case?

I am sorry Jim, but really you need enjoy with your telescopes. I can not understand why you need devaluate a manufacturer with unfounded actual situation, for trying to convince a customer in doubts for make certain decission. This is an useless situation.

I think that there are more objective and reasonable ways to advice.

PS: I am sure that TEC have had their problems like all manufacturers has (even Tak), but I am absolutely sure that top manufacturers always respond in such situations. This point, make a difference in our point of view.


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Theodore Mattas
super member


Reged: 11/12/04

Loc: Thessaloniki, Greece
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4196388 - 11/19/10 09:26 AM

I totally agree.
What is the point of focusing on past problems, already solved by Takahashi?
Is there any real danger for a potential Takahashi client in year 2010 to receive a misaligned scope?....definitely not.
Taks are the equivalent of Ferrari in telescope industry...and this fact can't change with a couple of problematic cells at the very beginning of the TOA series manufacture procedure.

Regards
Teo

--------------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow

Edited by Theodore Mattas (11/19/10 09:36 AM)


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