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Equipment Discussions >> Refractors

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Scott99
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: New England
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4196517 - 11/19/10 10:30 AM

>>>" I wasn't expecting there to be a profound difference between the eyepiece views with the two scopes, since the aperture difference was 20mm. BUT I also wasn't expecting the difference to be so subtle that I'd actually have to remind myself which refractor I was looking through (especially since the focusers are identical on both)"

Great example of why S&T reviews are totally useless these days.

I couldn't disagree more - I consider 20mm to be a large leap in refractor performance.

When I upgraded from 152mm to 160mm I could see the difference within the first few objects viewed.


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Hypnotist
sage


Reged: 08/29/10

Loc: San Diego, CA, US
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4196528 - 11/19/10 10:37 AM

Does this mean that you guys generally prefer the Tak or the TEC? I'll be imaging and viewing mainly at home. Whichever scope I get, it'll be my first proper refractor. Based on that, which scope is the better one for my purposes? (I'm not planning on building a home observatory)

Teo,
If the Tak is a Ferrari, then what is the TEC, a Volkswagen?

Clear skies
Bart


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Erik Bakker
Post Laureate
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Reged: 08/10/06

Loc: The Netherlands, Europe
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4196575 - 11/19/10 10:59 AM

Peace to all

I own and have owned high-end telescopes from Zeiss, A-P, Questar and Takahashi. They are all great instruments, For me personally, the Questar and Tak stand out a bit for what I like. That is why these are on my current sig. The others, though fine, found other new homes. In the end it comes down to personal taste and preferences. And that leads to a personal choice which one is best for YOU. Rest assured that each of these companies did everything humanly possible to make a superfine scope and make it right in the rare case something went wrong. I salut them all with the greatest respect for what they make and have made available to our amateur astronomer community. They craft the finest windows to space.

Clear skies and peaceful minds,

Erik


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lightfever
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 09/27/04

Loc: Macomb Michigan
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4196648 - 11/19/10 11:39 AM

My plans are for a visual only scope so the TEC140 is the one I'm saving for. 10mm more aperture, oiled triplet will cool down better (important where I live) and lighter weight.

Planning for 50 50 visual and photo kind of makes it more of a toss up IMO, are you leaning more toward one than the other?


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Scott99
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: New England
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4196716 - 11/19/10 12:16 PM

Quote:

Does this mean that you guys generally prefer the Tak or the TEC?




I don't think you'll ever find a consensus on this one. These are both very nice, I think an apt analogy would be comparing BMW to Mercedes.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Scott99]
      #4196735 - 11/19/10 12:33 PM

"BMW to Mercedes"

Mmmmm...nah. "Acura to Audi" more like.



Regards,

Jim


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Hypnotist
sage


Reged: 08/29/10

Loc: San Diego, CA, US
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4196752 - 11/19/10 12:41 PM

I would like to use either scope with my 5D Mark II. Which company has accessories that are more available? Which are cheaper? Which of the two scopes would you recommend with that criteria?

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deprofundis
member
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Reged: 10/12/10

Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Scott99]
      #4196760 - 11/19/10 12:44 PM

Quote:

Great example of why S&T reviews are totally useless these days.

I couldn't disagree more - I consider 20mm to be a large leap in refractor performance.

When I upgraded from 152mm to 160mm I could see the difference within the first few objects viewed.




20mm should be a significant leap. A 160mm aperture adds approx. 10% light grasp over 152mm. That's probably right around the visibility threshold for most people. If you have good eyesight you may notice the difference, but it should be subtle. Less critical observers may not notice any difference at all.

The jump from 130 to 140 is a 16% difference. Probably noticeable to most observers, but still I would not expect a night-and-day difference.

Jumping from 130 to 150 is a 33.6% increase. This should be readily noticeable. Whether or not you consider that overwhelmingly better is a matter of opinion.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4196771 - 11/19/10 12:50 PM

Weren't you the guy who earlier in this thread was saying that you're active on the Tak user group and CN and had NEVER heard of any issues with the TOA cell design?

There are many examples easily located here and elsewhere on the web, and one fellow even came forward on this thread to share TNR's diagnosis of a problem with his TOA - bad lens cell design in the earlier units.

As I've said many times, I expect that Tak has addressed this design defect with more recent examples, but seriously, for my use (visual; in places where my scope is going to get bumped around a lot), why would I gamble based on the guess/hope that the redesigned cell (the one you were allegedly ignorant of) is sufficiently robust when the original one was not?

Hence my opinion - I would not spend $5k on a scope that is smaller, cools slower, has an early sample history of lens cell fragility, and whose main benefit (color correction) is more of a benefit to imagers. I would rather spend the same amount on a larger scope optimized for visual use, that cools quickly and lacks any history of mechanical design fragility.

I would agree that at some point every manufacturer is likely to have a problem with some of its scopes. It's pretty clear that, despite the denials of fan boys, Tak had a design issue with the original TOA designs. Can you point me to any similar issues with any vintage of TEC 140? I've shared precisely the analysis I undertook when shopping refractors, and the information I uncovered about each scope I considered, though I was looking at the TOA-150 rather than the TOA-130 at the time.

Regards,

- Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/19/10 12:58 PM)


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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4196955 - 11/19/10 02:11 PM

Quote:

Can you point me to any similar issues with any vintage of TEC 140?





Seriously, sorry, I do not need make a devaluation on TEC's refractors or devaluation on their improve on their products in the past, to suggest of the Tak refractor purchase. Even more, I think that TEC manufactures a good refractors. Like Tak make. I will not hesitate on buying TAK.

Here you can find a good list of some telescopes test. There you can find a test of some TOAs and a TEC-160ED -can give an idea how can TEC-140 performs-. Once you spend time on reading what such tests results can say to us, or writing a serious reviews, maybe then I will spend some minutes in reading your post, and hope this thread could find a right telescope for the user with doubts.

Meanwhile, Sir, you have the reason on all you think or suspect.

Best regards.
Bye.


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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4197013 - 11/19/10 02:40 PM

Quote:

If the Tak is a Ferrari, then what is the TEC, a Volkswagen?

Clear skies
Bart




Actually if the Tak is a Ferrari, the TEC is a Maserati. I wouldn't say they are in a different class at all - in fact the TEC has a better focuser, better tube, arguably better lens (little more horsepower + higher tested strehl = does not hurt) but inarguably better quality control (perfect, as far as I can tell)... I am saying this as a long time Tak owner. There are things about the TEC I covet like the Feathertouch focuser (not available for 4" Tak focusers), the beefy visual back, the ridiculous pretty much guaranteed perfect optics, the smaller size and weight... Beautiful scope. So is the TOA. But the TEC is more precision, custom made, perfect. The Tak TOA is also beautiful because it is hand made using sand castings, organic, green, gorgeous. Big. Neither is collimatable by the user... But do consider, the FS series may be the finest collimatable refractors out there. The advantage of not having to even think about sending the scope back to the factory for collimation added with the worry of the return trip, combined with being able to literally any time quickly achieve perfect collimation that holds for years - with an allen wrench and a simple cheshire... If your triplet objective gets out of whack, and it may never happen , its a three or four week nightmare of returning your scope to the factory and back by stoner UPS dudes vs. a ten minute touch up. Are you *sure* your triplet APO is spot on the money dead solid perfect? Cause I know my fluorite APO is. Wait... Yep!


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Don Allen
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 07/07/05

Loc: Charleston, SC
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #4197035 - 11/19/10 02:54 PM



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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Don Allen]
      #4197040 - 11/19/10 02:59 PM

TEC is Ferrari and Tak is Lexus. (Still a super nice car, but less of an exotic.)

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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4197043 - 11/19/10 03:00 PM

Even more apt.

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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #4197111 - 11/19/10 03:39 PM

Although there are like 500 TEC140 out there now, not being very exotic anymore.

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GaryO
member
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Reged: 08/15/06

Loc: rochester ny
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4197184 - 11/19/10 04:19 PM

Refractor Forum newbie here. I just received my TEC 140 number 508, ordered in July. Bought it based a lot on the impressive info about this scope on this forum. I couldn't be happier!
Regards,
Gary


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Theodore Mattas
super member


Reged: 11/12/04

Loc: Thessaloniki, Greece
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4197187 - 11/19/10 04:21 PM

Quote:



why would I gamble based on the guess/hope that the redesigned cell (the one you were allegedly ignorant of) is sufficiently robust when the original one was not?





These are your personal psychological insecurities...not facts about Takahashi's liability.
Are there any present, "fresh" reports, complaints that this cell issue still exists???
The fact that you are reluctant to believe that Takahashi has long gone fixed this lens cell problem...doesn't mean that a 2010 potential TOA buyer should be afraid of receiving a misaligned scope.
So frankly speaking... I think that the past 2 days you keep misinforming the forum...by spreading unjustified rumors-fear about Takahashi's quality standards

P.S. I also think that Art Ciampi could offer us a valuable opinion about this issue...so given the fact that he actively participates at CN refractor forum...I hope it won't take long till his "appearance"

Regards from Greece
Teo

-------------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow

Edited by Theodore Mattas (11/19/10 04:44 PM)


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Theodore Mattas
super member


Reged: 11/12/04

Loc: Thessaloniki, Greece
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4197295 - 11/19/10 05:27 PM

There is also another very very interesting parameter in this TAK vs TEC "conflict" to be considered...the price!
If I'm not terribly wrong both scopes cost (bare OTAs) around 5.500$.
So here is the 1.000.000$ question .
Are the Japanese THAT foolish to "dare" set an identical to the competitor's scope price...when they offer 10mm less aperture??
Is it by any chance possible...that they are THAT confident about their TOA-130's superiority...that they are not afraid of competition?
I mean...if you guys who vote for the TEC-140 and swear to it's superiority are indeed correct...these Takahashi administrators must be lunitic...and losers as businessmen.
Who wouldn't prefer to have an extra 10mm of aperture for the same price (assuming that the two scopes are indeed optically equal) ....the TOA-130's sale numbers should naturally be sinkin right now...are they??

Regards
Teo

-----------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow

Edited by Theodore Mattas (11/19/10 06:01 PM)


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4197396 - 11/19/10 06:30 PM

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "misinformation". All I've done is share facts (and I'll go through them one by one) and my own analysis and purchasing decision based on those facts.

Fact #1: Takahashi had issues with early TOAs having mechanically inadequate cells.

Fact #2: Takahshi revised the cells to correct the problem.

Fact #3: I do not personally know whether or to what extent the Takahashi corrective measures have been adequate.

Fact #4: The TOAs have better color correction than the TEC 140.

Fact #5: I use my scopes for visual use only, and often travel over rough ground to observing sites.

Fact #6: When considering whether to purchase a TOA-150 or a TEC 140 in early 2008, I decided on and purchased a TEC 140 after reading whatever I could find about problems with early TOAs and Tak's correction efforts.

Opinion: In my opinion, as a visual user who travels with my scope to observing sites, the facts that (a) the TOAs have big heavy lenses that rely on precise spacing for performance, (b) early units of the TOA fetured under-designed, inadequate cells for the mass of the lenses, (c) the color correction of the TEC was adequate for my purposes, (d) the oil spaced lens cools faster than the air spaced lens, and (e) I've never read anything about a misaligned TEC OG caused by handling/transport, I concluded that the more prudent course for me was to purchase the TEC rather than take a chance on the Takahashi, given the nature of the design and the documented issues of OG misalignment.

Exactly what part constitutes "misinformation"? In fact, I find your own claim to be an active member of various Takahashi user's groups and to have NEVER heard of any TOA alignment issues to be pretty dubious. It certainly isn't very difficult to find such reports, and I'd expect anyone looking into buying a nice apochromat to do at least superficial investigation of quality and user satisfaction before making the investment.

As I've said in my other posts, I am brand agnostic. I've owned several Taks and still own an FS-78 and a Mewlon 210. I also considered a TOA-150, but instead purchased a TEC 140 for the reasons cited above.

If you have some additional facts that you deem relevant to the topic, share them. If you dispute the facts I've identified, tell me why. If you analyze and weigh those facts differently and reach a different conclusion, explain. But please don't ignore/deny the facts and then throw words around like "misinformation". That smacks of the worst kind of (minty green) fan boyism.

Regards,

Jim


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t.r.
Post Laureate
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4197536 - 11/19/10 07:34 PM

GaryO, congrats on the TEC140 and welcome to CNs! Is it your first apo refractor? Your in for a treat...by the way, are you a member of the ROC club? Quite an active group out there, if your not already involved. Are you a "newbie" here on CN or the hobby as well?

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