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Equipment Discussions >> Refractors

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Hypnotist
sage


Reged: 08/29/10

Loc: San Diego, CA, US
Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140
      #4193987 - 11/18/10 09:00 AM

Hi,

I'm interested in buying a Takahashi TOA 130, for viewing but also for imaging (I have a Canon EOS 5D Mark II). I hear Takahashis are very well known for their quality (studiness, accuracy etc.). Now yesterday I was reading some stuff on it and people mentioned they'd rather have a TEC 140 which is also good in quality, but seemingly not quite up to Tak standards. That left me debating on if I wanted a Tak or a TEC. What do you think? (I've never really heard a complaint about the TOA 130, except that it's rather heavy!)

I'd appreciate your honest opinion!

Thanks and clear skies

Bart


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t.r.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194007 - 11/18/10 09:10 AM

I'll keep it short and sweet...

1. TEC140 has a 10mm advantage. Yes it can be easily seen.
2. TEC140 is oil-spaced. Advantage in cooling down.
3. TEC140 is lighter and subjectively easier to handle.
4. TOA130 will have superior color correction.

Which factors are most important to you?

Qualifiers: I had a TEC140 for three years and compared it directly to an AP130GT for a year. I have never looked through a TOA130. I chose the AP130 for its extreme portability. The TEC was a phenominal performer for visual.

Edited by t.r. (11/18/10 09:16 AM)


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Theodore Mattas
super member


Reged: 11/12/04

Loc: Thessaloniki, Greece
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194029 - 11/18/10 09:21 AM

The TOA-130 is supposed to have slightly better color correction (in fact as far as I'm concerned there is no refractor out there with better color correction than the TOA series).
Other than that I doupt it if anyone could find any difference by doing a visual side by side test between a TOA-130 and a TEC-140.

Regards
Teo

------------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow


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Theodore Mattas
super member


Reged: 11/12/04

Loc: Thessaloniki, Greece
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: t.r.]
      #4194064 - 11/18/10 09:42 AM

Quote:



1. TEC140 has a 10mm advantage. Yes it can be easily seen.





I doupt it!
Dennis Di Cicco did an extensive review of a TEC-140 at Sky@Telescope's December 2003 issue.
At the end of the review he displays a side by side test between a TEC-140 and a TEC-160 on Jupiter and Moon...here is what he says:

" I wasn't expecting there to be a profound difference between the eyepiece views with the two scopes, since the aperture difference was 20mm. BUT I also wasn't expecting the difference to be so subtle that I'd actually have to remind myself which refractor I was looking through (especially since the focusers are identical on both).
When I mentioned that to TEC's president Yuri Petrunin, he didn't seem surprised."The difference", he said will be on deep sky objects...then , pausing for a moment, he added...and on the invoice "

Well I guess that according to Dennis Di Cicco's experience the even smaller 10mm difference between a TOA-130 and a TEC-140...should be even more subtle...maybe practically non existent

Regards
Teo

--------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-13OS
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow

Edited by Theodore Mattas (11/18/10 09:53 AM)


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Hypnotist
sage


Reged: 08/29/10

Loc: San Diego, CA, US
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4194075 - 11/18/10 09:50 AM

Recommendations?

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Theodore Mattas
super member


Reged: 11/12/04

Loc: Thessaloniki, Greece
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194095 - 11/18/10 09:58 AM

Here is a link which will definitely answer your question
http://www.sbig.com/mb/tak/takpics.htm

Regards
Teo

-------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow


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t.r.
Post Laureate
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4194132 - 11/18/10 10:18 AM

Well, I guess that a YEARS worth of SIDE-BY-SIDE comparison can't trump an expert reviewer's ONE night of evaluation! Everyone should also run out and sell their 160mm scopes and downsize to the 130's, your not missin' anything and look at the money you'll save! Good luck with getting them to do that. I'll stand by my observations...10mm's difference CAN be seen at first glance. I never said it was a HUGE diferrence. Don't forget that on a so-so night, even a 90mm and a 150mm can apear to show the same level of detail...check out some of TODD GROSS's reports.
As for recommendations...I'd go with the TEC140 again anytime.

Edited by t.r. (11/18/10 10:21 AM)


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Theodore Mattas
super member


Reged: 11/12/04

Loc: Thessaloniki, Greece
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: t.r.]
      #4194180 - 11/18/10 10:44 AM Attachment (172 downloads)

"If I may also chime in for the Gran Turismo...see here the size difference with the TEC140. Yes,10mm less, but I'am so far having a hard time seeing the loss in typical seeing conditions. The portablity factor goes way up,1/2 foot and 5 lbs less than the TEC. Sweet spot in this size... "



--------------------
Kmart 40mm(first scope @ age 8-Thanks Mom)Jason60mm-Thanks Dad,C80SS-Thanks Wife,PST,C6XLT,AP130 "Gran Turismo" C-11XLT
EQ-2,CG-4,ASGT,DenkII's,TV(zoom,plossls,Ethos,Nag),Pentax XW's,Brandon 50th Anniversary sets, ZAOII 4mm,BaaderZoom and other un-notables


"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring"
Carl Sagan


Well,I'm a bit confused...is this 10mm aperture difference finally CLEAR to be seen...or not?

Edited by Theodore Mattas (11/18/10 10:53 AM)


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Hypnotist
sage


Reged: 08/29/10

Loc: San Diego, CA, US
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: t.r.]
      #4194182 - 11/18/10 10:46 AM

Does anyone else have experience with these scopes. Would be nice to hear some more opinions.
Bart

Edited by Hypnotist (11/18/10 10:47 AM)


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194188 - 11/18/10 10:52 AM

I understand that the TOAs (at least the 150s) have been susceptible to misalignment due to jarring. In fact, I think Takahashi made changes to the TOA-150 cell early on to combat this. You're talking big, heavy lens cells with large (glass-insulated) air pockets between them. The difficulty of execution of this design was undertaken for one purpose - color correction for imaging. I suspect the TOAs will be more apt to come out of alignment over time as a result, but who knows.

For visual or a mix of observing that includes a high percentage of visual use, I think the TEC is the better choice. It has greater resolving power, is color corrected specifically for visual use, and has a simpler, lighter lens design that cools quickly. In other words, you'll never see less in a TEC than in a TOA-130, likely won't detect differences in color correction visually, and will be observing at potential sooner in the session.

Regards,

Jim


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4194235 - 11/18/10 11:16 AM

Someone who downsizes from a TEC140 to an AP130 is not an endorsement for anything but the rarity/desirability/panache of AP and the fact most of us could not afford to own two scopes so close in size.

Someone who downsizes from a TEC140 to a TOA130 is a glutton for punishment or a real overboard extremist when it comes to color correction.

I'd go for the TEC140 in a heartbeat. I'm on my second TEC now, both have been ED scopes.

> a TEC 140 which is also good in quality,
> but seemingly not quite up to Tak standards.

You may safely, completely, disregard that idea. I've owned 3 Taks and 2 TEC's over the years and these days I have a TEC parked in my "garage", not a Tak. I've only owned one scope that had mechanical focuser problems by the way, and it was a new Tak.

The TOA130 color correction is undeniably awesome. Side by side with a TEC140, pointed at a star like Vega or Sirius, you could probably see the difference. No other target is my guess.


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Theodore Mattas
super member


Reged: 11/12/04

Loc: Thessaloniki, Greece
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4194258 - 11/18/10 11:29 AM

Quote:

I understand that the TOAs (at least the 150s) have been susceptible to misalignment due to jarring. In fact, I think Takahashi made changes to the TOA-150 cell early on to combat this. You're talking big, heavy lens cells with large (glass-insulated) air pockets between them. The difficulty of execution of this design was undertaken for one purpose - color correction for imaging. I suspect the TOAs will be more apt to come out of alignment over time as a result, but who knows.





I wonder where did you find information regarding this..."misalignment" issue.
As a member of Yahoo Tak users, and Takahashi community on Facebook...I have never ever heard a TOA-150 user complaining about lens misalignment.
Please provide "evidence" (a link or something), I'm interesting in learning more.

Teo

---------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-13OS
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow


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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4194273 - 11/18/10 11:33 AM

I think the misalignment issue may stem from a misunderstanding. I believe the lens cell on all Tak APOs is not user adjustable - no screws are user accessible. This also appears to be the reason that Tak requires their scopes to be shipped by 2nd day air. If the scope arrives decollimated due to shipping handling, it cannot be fixed in the field. Not to say that any given scope will ever become decollimated. And if I still have it wrong, please forgive me. I'm still trying to put it together.

/Ira

Edited by Ira (11/18/10 11:35 AM)


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t.r.
Post Laureate
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4194277 - 11/18/10 11:36 AM

My my Theodore, you have idle time on your hands...your repost is taken out of context. Nice try though
To "clear" it up for you...Clearly seen on planetary/lunar. Not clearly seen on DeepSkyObjects/brightness. If the difference is WORTH it to YOU or not, I cannot say, but certainly, it is SEEN by my eyes and confirmed by another observers.YMMV FYI, don't take my avatar's pic too seriously as to my eyesight.

Edited by t.r. (11/18/10 11:51 AM)


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: t.r.]
      #4194293 - 11/18/10 11:41 AM

You can shake a TEC140 and might hear the lens knocking around in the cell a bit. This is normal. In the Tak TOA, the cell is a complex arrangement of metal pieces holding glass in critically exact positions and alignment. In the TEC, the cell is just a metal cylinder the lens drops in, but is not held overly tightly in. The lens has a small freedom of movement.

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Theodore Mattas
super member


Reged: 11/12/04

Loc: Thessaloniki, Greece
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: t.r.]
      #4194327 - 11/18/10 11:53 AM

Quote:

My my Theodore, you have idle time on your hands...your repost is taken out of context. Nice try though
To "clear" it up for you...Clearly seen on planetary/lunar. Not clearly seen on DeepSkyObjects/brightness. If the difference is WORTH it to YOU or not, I cannot say, but certainly, it is SEEN by my eyes and confirmed by another observers.YMMV




I have noticed in your signature that you own a Denkmeier bino.
I'm really interested in knowing how a 5" APO performs in planetary viewing with a binoviwer...is the loss of light (?) due to the binoviewer significant?
Other than that are the rumors that the views are 3D...true?

Teo
------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe Ii ortho set + 2X Barlow

Edited by Theodore Mattas (11/18/10 11:54 AM)


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Hypnotist
sage


Reged: 08/29/10

Loc: San Diego, CA, US
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4194543 - 11/18/10 01:25 PM

Guys, you know I've read a lot of reviews on the TOA 130 and many of them said that this scope is so clear that you might think it has an aperture larger than 5". I've never heard that from TECs. Please tell me what is true.

Bart


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johnnyha
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194552 - 11/18/10 01:29 PM

The TEC is so clear you might think it has the aperture of a larger scope.




Seriously though I have owned a TOA 130 and if I were to do it over, being a visual observer primarily, I would prefer the TEC 140. If I were a dedicated imager I wouldn't even think twice, the TOA is unbeatable. And if weight is a serious issue the TSA120 weighs half what a TOA130 does and is fully it's equal in color correction and "performing bigger than-ness."


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Theodore Mattas
super member


Reged: 11/12/04

Loc: Thessaloniki, Greece
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194563 - 11/18/10 01:34 PM

Quote:

Guys, you know I've read a lot of reviews on the TOA 130 and many of them said that this scope is so clear that you might think it has an aperture larger than 5". I've never heard that from TECs. Please tell me what is true.

Bart




Why do I have a feeling that deep down... you already know which will be your next refractor?

P.S.: Yes the views through the TOA-130 are THAT clear

Teo
------------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set +2X Barlow


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t.r.
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4194614 - 11/18/10 01:55 PM

[Quote]
I have noticed in your signature that you own a Denkmeier bino.
I'm really interested in knowing how a 5" APO performs in planetary viewing with a binoviwer...is the loss of light (?) due to the binoviewer significant?
Other than that are the rumors that the views are 3D...true?

Teo [Quote]

A 130mm scope and quality binoviewer is a wonderful planetary observing experience. There is light loss, however it is not objectionable with the perceived detail that a binoviewer provides. Incidentally, I prefer to binoview ALL objects even though I am losing light. I won't chase limiting magnitude galaxies with them, but my general outtings are for casual viewing (planetary mostly) anyways. It does give the effect of 3-D that I am hooked on!


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4194628 - 11/18/10 01:59 PM

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbarchive/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1550888/page/5/view/collapsed/sb/7/o/all/fpart/2/vc/1

"Be wary of the TOA-150. It is going through some growing pains, though the more recent samples might have fixed the original problems with the new lens cell design. I use one of the more recent samples, and it's exquisite. We (www.3rf.org) went through three early samples as well prior to getting one that works "good enough." So, we now have two TOA-150s, and the first sample isn't quite up to the level of the second one. Likewise, I know two other people who suffered similar problems.

As I said, recent samples seem to be producing fewer issues, which I guess we should expect with any new Tak design...the TOA-130 had similar problems early on."

"There have also been problems with early TOA-150's collimation due to the cells not fully set inplace. But my personal preference is air spaced glass. I also agree both TEC and TAK give great views."

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbarchive/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=refractors&Number=982366&Forum=f54&Words=TOA-150&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=981199&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=5415&daterange=1&newerval=10&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post982366

" Jay Ballauer had a post about his a few weeks ago. I guess his had some problems so they sent it back to Japan so they could fix it. Probably a fluke, I'm sure. Even Tiger Woods hits it in the water sometimes...



Actually, that was the first of our (3RF) TOA-150s to be delivered. That particular scope went to David Ryle in Wichita Falls. It had an optical alignment issue which is susposedly fixed and waiting for David in Houston. I took the instrument down for him to be fixed, but he'll have to pick it up...we aren't going to risk having it shipped.

Of course, the first views, with the alignment issues, looks like pure poo. Hopefully, the "real" TOA-150 will look much better.

But I'll say this...I'm susposed getting my TOA-150 this month, after having waited 18 months...and having fully paid for the scope. I'm tired of getting pushed back on it. If I get pushed back again, I'll ask for a refund. Besides, after looking through my first TEC 160FL last month, I'd rather be waiting on that scope. I doubt very seriously that the TOA can compare with it."

If you need more, I'm sure I can find additional reports. I'll add that I bet I can find more reports of troubled TOA lens cells than you can find reports of problems with lost oil in an oil-spaced objective.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/18/10 02:14 PM)


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Hypnotist
sage


Reged: 08/29/10

Loc: San Diego, CA, US
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4194792 - 11/18/10 02:58 PM

Yeah I get your point. But that stuff is only on the TOA 150, not the TOA 130.

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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194797 - 11/18/10 03:00 PM

Quote:

for viewing but also for imaging (I have a Canon EOS 5D Mark II).




Go for a new TOA-130F with 67FF and you will be happy .


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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194804 - 11/18/10 03:04 PM

Quote:

Yeah I get your point. But that stuff is only on the TOA 150, not the TOA 130.




Yeah Yeah... TOA series has a lot of problems... I like to hear this by competitors .


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
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Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4194811 - 11/18/10 03:06 PM

TEC owners proclaim "Buy TEC!" Tak owners proclaim "Buy Tak!" it sounds like a happy outcome is in your future no matter which path you take. (buy the TEC!!!)

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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4194871 - 11/18/10 03:29 PM

Quote:

TEC owners proclaim "Buy TEC!" Tak owners proclaim "Buy Tak!" it sounds like a happy outcome is in your future no matter which path you take. (buy the TEC!!!)




Mike, Did I ever devaluate about TEC?

Here someone is writing about rumors, or a defective sample (s), or ... solved Tak the problem on the sample? or what are we writing about? about a sample from six year ago? Are we misinforming?


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4194905 - 11/18/10 03:40 PM

You seem to have missed one of the quotations.

It specifically included TOA-130s.

I think this is what happened. The TOA glass is heavy. Takahashi underestimated the cell requirements in the early examples of TOA scopes, and there were a fair number of problems with lens cell alignment early on.

I suspect that Takahashi has adjusted its design to address this oversight in the original design, and the new ones are more robust. That said, I wouldn't buy one unless I was a diehard imager as the design cools slowly and is ultra-finicky with respect to lens spacing, squaring and alignment, with the main payback being better color correction.

As jay52 says, if a TOA goes out of alignment, images look like "poo". My scopes travel the wilds and I don't image, so I'd take a TEC or an Astro-Physics any day over a TOA out of fragility fears.

Only you can decide whether your intended use benefits from the extra color correction and you're confident that these aren't more fragile than other alternatives. Of course, if you stay home mostly, the latter probably isn't worth worrying about.

I have had Taks and still have an FS-78. I also have a TEC 140. I considered a TOA-150 when I bought the TEC, but the issues above steered me away from the TOAs. I like Taks, TECs, TVs, A-Ps, etc. I have, however, noted some variance in quality unit to unit between Taks and TVs that I haven't noticed between different A-P units and different TEC units. Not specifically TOAs, but certainly among FS and earlier series scopes. For example, My FS-78 is very nice, but not as nice as a club mate's FS-78 and I've seen some very average FS-128s and FS-152s as well as some excellent ones.

In other words, I'm not a flaming fan boy of either company. My home page doesn't have a complete history of Takahashi scopes. I call 'em like I see 'em based on my own use of scopes from both makers and the first hand reports of buyers here on CN and elsewhere.

There's a tendency for folks who spend their rent money on "Brand X" or "Brand Y" to start defining themselves by what they own and to deny pretty credible data that they perceive as negative toward their chosen brand.

You'll notice that several of the folks suggesting that you'll be happy with either or recommending the TEC have owned both TECs and Taks, whereas the most rabid TOA folks seem to be Tak purists.

Do your own homework and I'm sure you'll end up with a very nice scope no matter whose label is on it.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/18/10 03:53 PM)


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
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Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4194916 - 11/18/10 03:45 PM

> Mike, Did I ever devaluate about TEC?

I am not misinforming of anything. My post was a post of encouragement -- that either path is likely to have a happy outcome.

FWIW, I think Jim is right. But I may be biased by having been through the experience of having a high-end air spaced triplet knocked out of alignment during shipping.


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edif300
super member


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Basque Country
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4194938 - 11/18/10 03:53 PM

Quote:


I think this is what happened.




Ok, you think...

Quote:



I suspect that




well, you suspect... nice.

Quote:


As jay52 says, if a TOA goes out of alignment




If goes, but if not goes no problem... ok.

Quote:

Only you can decide whether your intended use benefits from the extra color correction and you are confident that these are not more fragile than other alternatives. Of course, if you stay home mostly, the latter probably isn't worth worrying about.




OK also the TOA is fragile

PS: I forgot it, thanks for visiting my webpage.


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Ziggy943
Post Laureate


Reged: 08/11/06

Loc: Utah
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4195014 - 11/18/10 04:26 PM

Get the TEC 140. Dennis DiCicco was almost right. There is a visible difference between the 140 and 160 TEC's on more than deep sky. You see the difference in the fine detail. The same would be true for the 10mm difference between the 130 and the 140. At the optical excellence of these manufacturers, the size advantage is what counts, IMHO.

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Hypnotist
sage


Reged: 08/29/10

Loc: San Diego, CA, US
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Ziggy943]
      #4195029 - 11/18/10 04:35 PM

I'd like to spend the same time imaging and viewing. What do you think about that, still the TEC or the Tak?
Bart


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DeanS
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Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Central Kentucky
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4195039 - 11/18/10 04:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I understand that the TOAs (at least the 150s) have been susceptible to misalignment due to jarring. In fact, I think Takahashi made changes to the TOA-150 cell early on to combat this. You're talking big, heavy lens cells with large (glass-insulated) air pockets between them. The difficulty of execution of this design was undertaken for one purpose - color correction for imaging. I suspect the TOAs will be more apt to come out of alignment over time as a result, but who knows.





I wonder where did you find information regarding this..."misalignment" issue.
As a member of Yahoo Tak users, and Takahashi community on Facebook...I have never ever heard a TOA-150 user complaining about lens misalignment.
Please provide "evidence" (a link or something), I'm interesting in learning more.

Teo

---------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-13OS
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow




Not sure if I ever posted my issue on the Tak group, but.....

I bought my toa-150 used, found out later that evening, and 7 hours away, that it was really far out of collimation. Was sent back to Art and Fred at TNR. They said the cell was bad, replaced it with a brand new one direct from Japan, and only charged a small amount for the labor. Luckily the guy I bought it from stood behind it and covered all the expenses of which shipping was the biggest. Now I have basically a brand new scope, particularly since I upgraded to the B model focuser.

So yes it has happened in the past to more than just me but I believe Tak as taken care of what ever caused the problem.


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Ira
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: DeanS]
      #4195061 - 11/18/10 04:47 PM

TIC - TAC - TOE


/Ira


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LLEEGE
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4195154 - 11/18/10 05:32 PM

Quote:

I'd like to spend the same time imaging and viewing. What do you think about that, still the TEC or the Tak?
Bart


You can get a new 140 w/ flattener for about the same cost as the TOA with a comparable focuser. The TEC will be less demanding on the mount as well. I'd opt for the TEC but either will give you a quality scope.

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Ziggy943
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #4195219 - 11/18/10 05:58 PM

Ditto.

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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4195224 - 11/18/10 06:00 PM

If it's 50-50 and you don't plan on heading out to the darkness of Death Valley on unpaved roads, I'd probably go Tak. If it's 50-50 and you plan on schlepping the scope around quite a bit by auto, I might lean TEC. Unfortunately I think the *perfect* available scope for you is the TEC 160FL, but it's pretty expensive compared to the TOA-130 and TEC 140.

Here's an interesting article on the TEC 140:

http://www.brayebrookobservatory.org/BrayObsWebSite/HOMEPAGE/TEC140_980.html

Some of the juicy bits:

"The top three mid-aperture visual apos I would say are the TEC140 f/7 (1/55 wave RMS e-line oil-spaced triplet Strehl 99%), followed closely by the TMB 130 f/6 (1/30th wave RMS e-line air-spaced triplet Strehl 95.8%) and the Takahashi OTA130 f/7.7 (1/28th wave RMS e-line air-spaced Ortho-Apochromat triplet Strehl 95.5%)."

"An air-spaced OG gives the designer four more degrees of freedom, than an oil-spaced (and hence essentially surface contact) design, but there is inevitably a lot more work involved in figuring all six independent surfaces. Contact designs are easier to test and therefore less time consuming to figure accurately. There will also obviously be no scatter or possible internal reflection within a contact triplet whereas there will be at least some within an air-spaced triplet. All these things in themselves may be nit-picking niceties, but summed, they no doubt account for the marginally enhanced performance of Yuri Petrunin's TEC140/980."

"Q2). How does trading off color for sharpness work (how can
optimizing for whiter images create softer views)?

- The color balance was chosen according to the relative sensitivity of the human eye for visual spectral range (450-650nm), with weight coefficients for each color according to human eye relative sensitivity for these colors. Since the color sensitivity of our eyes corresponds with our nearest star radiation intensity (see Color diagram in the same file) - such optimization gives the highest Strehl (best MTF) or in the other words sharpest images and best contrast on planets and the Moon. Also no problem on deep sky, but with slight violet halo around bright white-blue stars like Vega (see Vega's intensity diagram in the same file), Deneb, that radiate most of their energy in 300-400nm range - for which our design is less corrected (1/2 wave for 436nm)."

"To change design to air-spaced and use two ED glasses - that can make even better correction (price goes up - no question), but we would prefer to keep ED glass (that, BTW, is 3-4 times softer and not as chemically stable as crowns... do you live near the sea? ) between two crowns."

Good stuff.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/18/10 06:02 PM)


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edif300
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4195466 - 11/18/10 07:47 PM

Unpaved road or paved road can vary the final decission?

Jim, Seriously? I am really surprised.


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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4195477 - 11/18/10 07:55 PM

Yes, I'm quite serious or else I wouldn't have posted it.

"Not sure if I ever posted my issue on the Tak group, but.....

I bought my toa-150 used, found out later that evening, and 7 hours away, that it was really far out of collimation. Was sent back to Art and Fred at TNR. They said the cell was bad, replaced it with a brand new one direct from Japan, and only charged a small amount for the labor. Luckily the guy I bought it from stood behind it and covered all the expenses of which shipping was the biggest. Now I have basically a brand new scope, particularly since I upgraded to the B model focuser.

So yes it has happened in the past to more than just me but I believe Tak as taken care of what ever caused the problem."

That's the exclusive US importer advising that the cell in an older TOA was bad and needed replacement. Obviously the heavy TOA OG required a sturdier cell than its designers originally thought. So much so that they needed to redesign the cell. Kudos to everyone involved (Tak, TNR, the seller) for taking care of the problem, but for this kind of money and the amount of bumping and thumping my astro-travel entails, I wouldn't (and didn't) go TOA personally.

If I had a nice home observatory and imaged a lot, I'd have no trouble with a TOA. You're welcome to have a different opinion, but I think denying that Tak has had some issues with the cell design on the TOAs borders on being disingenuous at this point.

Regards,

Jim


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edif300
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4196131 - 11/19/10 05:10 AM

Jim, Once again...

Are your words sincere for actual situation on TOA's cells? or, you are talking about few bad samples? when this happened? 5 years ago? has tak now solved the problem? if ever would was on all TOAs...

How many cases really you know about? one case? 1000 cases? one case solved by charging a small amount for the labor. No more? even for more, you know about some unsolved case?

I am sorry Jim, but really you need enjoy with your telescopes. I can not understand why you need devaluate a manufacturer with unfounded actual situation, for trying to convince a customer in doubts for make certain decission. This is an useless situation.

I think that there are more objective and reasonable ways to advice.

PS: I am sure that TEC have had their problems like all manufacturers has (even Tak), but I am absolutely sure that top manufacturers always respond in such situations. This point, make a difference in our point of view.


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Theodore Mattas
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4196388 - 11/19/10 09:26 AM

I totally agree.
What is the point of focusing on past problems, already solved by Takahashi?
Is there any real danger for a potential Takahashi client in year 2010 to receive a misaligned scope?....definitely not.
Taks are the equivalent of Ferrari in telescope industry...and this fact can't change with a couple of problematic cells at the very beginning of the TOA series manufacture procedure.

Regards
Teo

--------------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow

Edited by Theodore Mattas (11/19/10 09:36 AM)


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Scott99
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4196517 - 11/19/10 10:30 AM

>>>" I wasn't expecting there to be a profound difference between the eyepiece views with the two scopes, since the aperture difference was 20mm. BUT I also wasn't expecting the difference to be so subtle that I'd actually have to remind myself which refractor I was looking through (especially since the focusers are identical on both)"

Great example of why S&T reviews are totally useless these days.

I couldn't disagree more - I consider 20mm to be a large leap in refractor performance.

When I upgraded from 152mm to 160mm I could see the difference within the first few objects viewed.


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Hypnotist
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4196528 - 11/19/10 10:37 AM

Does this mean that you guys generally prefer the Tak or the TEC? I'll be imaging and viewing mainly at home. Whichever scope I get, it'll be my first proper refractor. Based on that, which scope is the better one for my purposes? (I'm not planning on building a home observatory)

Teo,
If the Tak is a Ferrari, then what is the TEC, a Volkswagen?

Clear skies
Bart


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Erik Bakker
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4196575 - 11/19/10 10:59 AM

Peace to all

I own and have owned high-end telescopes from Zeiss, A-P, Questar and Takahashi. They are all great instruments, For me personally, the Questar and Tak stand out a bit for what I like. That is why these are on my current sig. The others, though fine, found other new homes. In the end it comes down to personal taste and preferences. And that leads to a personal choice which one is best for YOU. Rest assured that each of these companies did everything humanly possible to make a superfine scope and make it right in the rare case something went wrong. I salut them all with the greatest respect for what they make and have made available to our amateur astronomer community. They craft the finest windows to space.

Clear skies and peaceful minds,

Erik


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lightfever
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4196648 - 11/19/10 11:39 AM

My plans are for a visual only scope so the TEC140 is the one I'm saving for. 10mm more aperture, oiled triplet will cool down better (important where I live) and lighter weight.

Planning for 50 50 visual and photo kind of makes it more of a toss up IMO, are you leaning more toward one than the other?


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Scott99
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4196716 - 11/19/10 12:16 PM

Quote:

Does this mean that you guys generally prefer the Tak or the TEC?




I don't think you'll ever find a consensus on this one. These are both very nice, I think an apt analogy would be comparing BMW to Mercedes.


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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Scott99]
      #4196735 - 11/19/10 12:33 PM

"BMW to Mercedes"

Mmmmm...nah. "Acura to Audi" more like.



Regards,

Jim


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Hypnotist
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4196752 - 11/19/10 12:41 PM

I would like to use either scope with my 5D Mark II. Which company has accessories that are more available? Which are cheaper? Which of the two scopes would you recommend with that criteria?

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deprofundis
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Scott99]
      #4196760 - 11/19/10 12:44 PM

Quote:

Great example of why S&T reviews are totally useless these days.

I couldn't disagree more - I consider 20mm to be a large leap in refractor performance.

When I upgraded from 152mm to 160mm I could see the difference within the first few objects viewed.




20mm should be a significant leap. A 160mm aperture adds approx. 10% light grasp over 152mm. That's probably right around the visibility threshold for most people. If you have good eyesight you may notice the difference, but it should be subtle. Less critical observers may not notice any difference at all.

The jump from 130 to 140 is a 16% difference. Probably noticeable to most observers, but still I would not expect a night-and-day difference.

Jumping from 130 to 150 is a 33.6% increase. This should be readily noticeable. Whether or not you consider that overwhelmingly better is a matter of opinion.


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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4196771 - 11/19/10 12:50 PM

Weren't you the guy who earlier in this thread was saying that you're active on the Tak user group and CN and had NEVER heard of any issues with the TOA cell design?

There are many examples easily located here and elsewhere on the web, and one fellow even came forward on this thread to share TNR's diagnosis of a problem with his TOA - bad lens cell design in the earlier units.

As I've said many times, I expect that Tak has addressed this design defect with more recent examples, but seriously, for my use (visual; in places where my scope is going to get bumped around a lot), why would I gamble based on the guess/hope that the redesigned cell (the one you were allegedly ignorant of) is sufficiently robust when the original one was not?

Hence my opinion - I would not spend $5k on a scope that is smaller, cools slower, has an early sample history of lens cell fragility, and whose main benefit (color correction) is more of a benefit to imagers. I would rather spend the same amount on a larger scope optimized for visual use, that cools quickly and lacks any history of mechanical design fragility.

I would agree that at some point every manufacturer is likely to have a problem with some of its scopes. It's pretty clear that, despite the denials of fan boys, Tak had a design issue with the original TOA designs. Can you point me to any similar issues with any vintage of TEC 140? I've shared precisely the analysis I undertook when shopping refractors, and the information I uncovered about each scope I considered, though I was looking at the TOA-150 rather than the TOA-130 at the time.

Regards,

- Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/19/10 12:58 PM)


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edif300
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4196955 - 11/19/10 02:11 PM

Quote:

Can you point me to any similar issues with any vintage of TEC 140?





Seriously, sorry, I do not need make a devaluation on TEC's refractors or devaluation on their improve on their products in the past, to suggest of the Tak refractor purchase. Even more, I think that TEC manufactures a good refractors. Like Tak make. I will not hesitate on buying TAK.

Here you can find a good list of some telescopes test. There you can find a test of some TOAs and a TEC-160ED -can give an idea how can TEC-140 performs-. Once you spend time on reading what such tests results can say to us, or writing a serious reviews, maybe then I will spend some minutes in reading your post, and hope this thread could find a right telescope for the user with doubts.

Meanwhile, Sir, you have the reason on all you think or suspect.

Best regards.
Bye.


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johnnyha
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4197013 - 11/19/10 02:40 PM

Quote:

If the Tak is a Ferrari, then what is the TEC, a Volkswagen?

Clear skies
Bart




Actually if the Tak is a Ferrari, the TEC is a Maserati. I wouldn't say they are in a different class at all - in fact the TEC has a better focuser, better tube, arguably better lens (little more horsepower + higher tested strehl = does not hurt) but inarguably better quality control (perfect, as far as I can tell)... I am saying this as a long time Tak owner. There are things about the TEC I covet like the Feathertouch focuser (not available for 4" Tak focusers), the beefy visual back, the ridiculous pretty much guaranteed perfect optics, the smaller size and weight... Beautiful scope. So is the TOA. But the TEC is more precision, custom made, perfect. The Tak TOA is also beautiful because it is hand made using sand castings, organic, green, gorgeous. Big. Neither is collimatable by the user... But do consider, the FS series may be the finest collimatable refractors out there. The advantage of not having to even think about sending the scope back to the factory for collimation added with the worry of the return trip, combined with being able to literally any time quickly achieve perfect collimation that holds for years - with an allen wrench and a simple cheshire... If your triplet objective gets out of whack, and it may never happen , its a three or four week nightmare of returning your scope to the factory and back by stoner UPS dudes vs. a ten minute touch up. Are you *sure* your triplet APO is spot on the money dead solid perfect? Cause I know my fluorite APO is. Wait... Yep!


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Don Allen
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #4197035 - 11/19/10 02:54 PM



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Mike Clemens
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Don Allen]
      #4197040 - 11/19/10 02:59 PM

TEC is Ferrari and Tak is Lexus. (Still a super nice car, but less of an exotic.)

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johnnyha
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4197043 - 11/19/10 03:00 PM

Even more apt.

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Mike Clemens
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #4197111 - 11/19/10 03:39 PM

Although there are like 500 TEC140 out there now, not being very exotic anymore.

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GaryO
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4197184 - 11/19/10 04:19 PM

Refractor Forum newbie here. I just received my TEC 140 number 508, ordered in July. Bought it based a lot on the impressive info about this scope on this forum. I couldn't be happier!
Regards,
Gary


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Theodore Mattas
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4197187 - 11/19/10 04:21 PM

Quote:



why would I gamble based on the guess/hope that the redesigned cell (the one you were allegedly ignorant of) is sufficiently robust when the original one was not?





These are your personal psychological insecurities...not facts about Takahashi's liability.
Are there any present, "fresh" reports, complaints that this cell issue still exists???
The fact that you are reluctant to believe that Takahashi has long gone fixed this lens cell problem...doesn't mean that a 2010 potential TOA buyer should be afraid of receiving a misaligned scope.
So frankly speaking... I think that the past 2 days you keep misinforming the forum...by spreading unjustified rumors-fear about Takahashi's quality standards

P.S. I also think that Art Ciampi could offer us a valuable opinion about this issue...so given the fact that he actively participates at CN refractor forum...I hope it won't take long till his "appearance"

Regards from Greece
Teo

-------------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow

Edited by Theodore Mattas (11/19/10 04:44 PM)


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Theodore Mattas
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4197295 - 11/19/10 05:27 PM

There is also another very very interesting parameter in this TAK vs TEC "conflict" to be considered...the price!
If I'm not terribly wrong both scopes cost (bare OTAs) around 5.500$.
So here is the 1.000.000$ question .
Are the Japanese THAT foolish to "dare" set an identical to the competitor's scope price...when they offer 10mm less aperture??
Is it by any chance possible...that they are THAT confident about their TOA-130's superiority...that they are not afraid of competition?
I mean...if you guys who vote for the TEC-140 and swear to it's superiority are indeed correct...these Takahashi administrators must be lunitic...and losers as businessmen.
Who wouldn't prefer to have an extra 10mm of aperture for the same price (assuming that the two scopes are indeed optically equal) ....the TOA-130's sale numbers should naturally be sinkin right now...are they??

Regards
Teo

-----------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow

Edited by Theodore Mattas (11/19/10 06:01 PM)


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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4197396 - 11/19/10 06:30 PM

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "misinformation". All I've done is share facts (and I'll go through them one by one) and my own analysis and purchasing decision based on those facts.

Fact #1: Takahashi had issues with early TOAs having mechanically inadequate cells.

Fact #2: Takahshi revised the cells to correct the problem.

Fact #3: I do not personally know whether or to what extent the Takahashi corrective measures have been adequate.

Fact #4: The TOAs have better color correction than the TEC 140.

Fact #5: I use my scopes for visual use only, and often travel over rough ground to observing sites.

Fact #6: When considering whether to purchase a TOA-150 or a TEC 140 in early 2008, I decided on and purchased a TEC 140 after reading whatever I could find about problems with early TOAs and Tak's correction efforts.

Opinion: In my opinion, as a visual user who travels with my scope to observing sites, the facts that (a) the TOAs have big heavy lenses that rely on precise spacing for performance, (b) early units of the TOA fetured under-designed, inadequate cells for the mass of the lenses, (c) the color correction of the TEC was adequate for my purposes, (d) the oil spaced lens cools faster than the air spaced lens, and (e) I've never read anything about a misaligned TEC OG caused by handling/transport, I concluded that the more prudent course for me was to purchase the TEC rather than take a chance on the Takahashi, given the nature of the design and the documented issues of OG misalignment.

Exactly what part constitutes "misinformation"? In fact, I find your own claim to be an active member of various Takahashi user's groups and to have NEVER heard of any TOA alignment issues to be pretty dubious. It certainly isn't very difficult to find such reports, and I'd expect anyone looking into buying a nice apochromat to do at least superficial investigation of quality and user satisfaction before making the investment.

As I've said in my other posts, I am brand agnostic. I've owned several Taks and still own an FS-78 and a Mewlon 210. I also considered a TOA-150, but instead purchased a TEC 140 for the reasons cited above.

If you have some additional facts that you deem relevant to the topic, share them. If you dispute the facts I've identified, tell me why. If you analyze and weigh those facts differently and reach a different conclusion, explain. But please don't ignore/deny the facts and then throw words around like "misinformation". That smacks of the worst kind of (minty green) fan boyism.

Regards,

Jim


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t.r.
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4197536 - 11/19/10 07:34 PM

GaryO, congrats on the TEC140 and welcome to CNs! Is it your first apo refractor? Your in for a treat...by the way, are you a member of the ROC club? Quite an active group out there, if your not already involved. Are you a "newbie" here on CN or the hobby as well?

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CounterWeight
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: t.r.]
      #4197762 - 11/19/10 09:36 PM

I think what I wrote here on older posts - and have read others post here on older posts - is that when you receive a TEC the thing is so clear that it looks like they forgot to put the lenses in ! 'Seriozna! I don't know what Yuri and Co. use for coatings... but they appear transparent to a point almost silly.

Takahashi by themselvs are unable to manipulate the $ vs. Yen. That Japanese money is worth more on the world market (by ratio)- I can't do anything either. But they make darn fine scopes and reducers and flatteners (and near anything you'd ever need to combine or modify or accesorize) and finders and BRC's, and MDK's or CDK's whatever the Mewlon are. TEC makes great refractor scopes and flatteners and turrets... and well whatever they decide to make.

All these scopes are really very nice, IMO a pleasure to own or have owned. I think it's important to see for yourself and make judgements as appropriate for the eye that's beholdin'. Your in the realm of folks that really care - and their quality and support reflect that. It's just really nice to 'be there'.


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #4197812 - 11/19/10 10:18 PM

I ordered a new TSA-102 that had significant SA about a year ago. I sent it back and it was replaced. The replacement was a nice scope. Optics were much better.
Not trying to put down Takahashi; just sharing the facts.

Personally if it were me and my money I would be visiting Yuri.


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LLEEGE
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: GaryO]
      #4197814 - 11/19/10 10:20 PM

Quote:

Refractor Forum newbie here. I just received my TEC 140 number 508, ordered in July. Bought it based a lot on the impressive info about this scope on this forum. I couldn't be happier!
Regards,
Gary


Welcome, Gary. I'd love to take a peek through your TEC. I'm sure Tim (t.r.) would too. You should come visit our club's site some time and we could have a collection of a few premium scopes to look through.

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Theodore Mattas
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4197955 - 11/20/10 12:11 AM

Quote:

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "misinformation". All I've done is share facts (and I'll go through them one by one) and my own analysis and purchasing decision based on those facts.





Yes you shared facts....but when you afterwards mixed the facts with your own personal psychological criteria ("I doupt it that the new cells are better than the early ones")...then simply stated you started misinforming...
Even if there were some unhappy (who knows how many)..."misaligned" Takahashi customers in the past, even if the Japanese indeed had to redesign the cells (If I'm not wrong these TOA series scopes are manufactured over a decade now)...there are NO indications that similar problems exist nowadays...so literally speaking when a newbie member reads your posts...immediately has the impression that Takahashi sells products that are very likely to be defective....THAT my friend is called misinformation and has nothing to do with a true "refractor agnostic" guy you claim to be
You have every right to advice a potential 5" refractor buyer to choose the TEC-140, by telling him..."it is lighter, it cools faster, it has 10mm more aperture, it has equal optical quality to the TOA ect ect ect"...what you can't do is spreading "fear" by focusing on problems that even you know that are already solved for good.
When I stated that as a yahoo Tak member I didn't notice any reports about defective TOA cells...I really meant it!
The vast majority of TOA owners have purchased perfect scopes...thus it didn't come to my attention any recent report. I really can't tell if there were such reports in the past...but frankly speaking I don't spend my whole life scanning every single post in Tak Yahoo forums
You also "accused" me of being a "mint green" fan...but the truth is that you can't find even a single post of mine where I devaluate other brands in order to "promote" my "beloved" Takahashi.
I currently own a TOA-130...my experience after many observations is that it is a killer scope...and that's all.
Till now I didn't have the chance to see through any TEC scope. Although the astronomical community here in Greece is big and there are similar local forums like CN I haven't noticed anybody who owns a TEC refractor...I would though certainly be more than happy to check one of these Russian beauties myself

Regards
Teo

--------------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow


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blueman
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4198076 - 11/20/10 02:40 AM

The TEC scopes are good enough to stand up to the tests of anyone. It is not really necessary to point out the shortfalls of another brand to make them look better. The quality of the TEC is very apparent when you look at them or through them. Yuri makes a fine product which is made right here in the USA and like AstroPhysics, they are both world class.
Blueman


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crazyqban
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: blueman]
      #4198137 - 11/20/10 05:12 AM

TECs are awesome scopes. I had a TOA-130F and I really loved it but if I had to do it again I would probably get the TEC as I am a strictly visual observer. A friend of mine had one and we were able to observe with both (TEC 140 & TOA-130F) on a couple of occasions. I would say that the extra 10mm of aperture of the TEC 140 we were able to pull in slightly more detail on Saturn than the TOA-130F. Another friend of mine currently owns a TEC 140 and I am very pleased with the performance of his scope. That all being said, I am an HUGE fan of everything Tak but if you are going for strictly visual instrument I would have to say to go for the TEC, better yet, go for at least a 12" reflector. I sold the TOA-103F and got a 16" F4 Starstucture with Zambuto optics which I will be picking up in two weeks. That's my story, hope it helps.

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crazyqban
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: crazyqban]
      #4198141 - 11/20/10 05:23 AM

PS...

I said that I would take the TEC 140 over the TOA-130F but I forgot to mention that I enjoyed some rather spectacular observing sessions with the TOA. Mounted on a Discmounts DM6, this setup was a true joy to use. If it wasn't because I needed the money to fund my new scope I would have kept this setup. At this years WSP I have some very memorable views of Saturn, Omega Centauri, Centaur A, The Double Cluster, M42, M36, M37, M38, M45 and so on. The scope takes on just about whatever magnification you throw at it as long as the seeing conditions are good.


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Hypnotist
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: crazyqban]
      #4198166 - 11/20/10 06:11 AM

Is the TEC a good photography scope?

I wrote optcorp.com and asked them which scope they'd recommend for me. I was told I should stick with the TOA 130. Why would someone tell me that even though I notice that the majority of you here on CN support the TEC 140?

Bart


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andydj5xp
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #4198168 - 11/20/10 06:18 AM

Quote:

I think what I wrote here on older posts - and have read others post here on older posts - is that when you receive a TEC the thing is so clear that it looks like they forgot to put the lenses in ! 'Seriozna! I don't know what Yuri and Co. use for coatings... but they appear transparent to a point almost silly.




After taking delivery of my TEC140 in October 2005 I immediately noticed the difference in reflectivity between my APM/TMB 115/805 (also a VERY good scope) and the TEC140. The TEC lens really seemed not to be there.

Discussing this point - amongst others - with Yuri he told me that TEC uses a special very expensive coating from a firm available only for US residing firms like TEC and AP. This coating normally is applied to military gear only. Thus the restriction to American based manufacturers.

Andreas


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Hypnotist
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: andydj5xp]
      #4198181 - 11/20/10 06:32 AM

What makes the "invisible" lens so special?

Bart

Edited by Hypnotist (11/20/10 06:33 AM)


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andydj5xp
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4198205 - 11/20/10 07:11 AM

Quote:

What makes the "invisible" lens so special?

Bart




The "invisible" lens has enhanced contrast due to less scatter. In addition "invisibility" means that all parts of the spectrum are equally well transfered through the lens. Of course, the differences between high level scopes are not large.

Andreas


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gillmj24
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: andydj5xp]
      #4198219 - 11/20/10 07:30 AM

If you look on TEC's web site irlt says the two places to buy a new one are TEC themselves and Anacortes. So if I am answering the phones at OPT I would also probably steer you to a brand that my store carried. That's not being a bad vendor that's just life.

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RAKing
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: gillmj24]
      #4198230 - 11/20/10 07:45 AM

Quote:

If you look on TEC's web site irlt says the two places to buy a new one are TEC themselves and Anacortes. So if I am answering the phones at OPT I would also probably steer you to a brand that my store carried. That's not being a bad vendor that's just life.




TEC's web site needs an update. OPT is now a TEC vendor, too.

I've owned Taks and loved them, but I prefer the focuser on the TEC and I wouldn't trade my TEC 140 for a TOA 130. I CAN tell the difference - 10mm does matter!

My .02,

Ron


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Hypnotist
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: gillmj24]
      #4198237 - 11/20/10 07:50 AM

Quote:

If you look on TEC's web site irlt says the two places to buy a new one are TEC themselves and Anacortes. So if I am answering the phones at OPT I would also probably steer you to a brand that my store carried. That's not being a bad vendor that's just life.





But OPT has the TEC 140 in stock (they don't have any other scopes by TEC however). That's at least what their website says. Now why do you think my contact at OPT supports the TOA 130 instead of the TEC 140?

Bart


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gillmj24
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: RAKing]
      #4198238 - 11/20/10 07:51 AM

Really? Interesting as I quickly searched opt and didnt find the Tec 140 only cases for it etc.

In my light polluted sky 130 to 140 side by side (different brands though) doesn't have the same WOW as 8" to 10" if I may refer to SCT's briefly and in passing

I was worried they were giving less than 100 percent impartial advice. I am glad that is not the case.

If you can't figure it out from many pages of posts then the answer to toa130 vs tec140 is......



Wait for it.........






Personal choice! You can't go wrong with either. No matter which one you get I suspect you'll love it and then two weeks afterwards when the next "versus" thread appears you will defend your buying decision to the death!!!

Edited by Joseph Gillman (11/20/10 08:01 AM)


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luck
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: gillmj24]
      #4198265 - 11/20/10 08:22 AM

Both scopes have good records and have proven them self. It all comes down to personal preference. The difference has been already discussed, like weight, color correction, cool down, etc...

Personally I doubt the 10mm difference would matter. At least not to my eyes If you really want to be wowed go bigger, like 150 or 160 and don't turn back.

What I have picked up in these and other treads is for visual go with the TEC-140 and for CCD imaging go with the TOA130. I would be happy with either. So, if one of you are not happy with their TEC or TOA, just sent it to me and I promise that I will take good care of it and it will see a lot of starlight

If portability is an issue one could go with a 120mm.

Edited by luck (11/20/10 06:48 PM)


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LLEEGE
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4198268 - 11/20/10 08:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If you look on TEC's web site irlt says the two places to buy a new one are TEC themselves and Anacortes. So if I am answering the phones at OPT I would also probably steer you to a brand that my store carried. That's not being a bad vendor that's just life.





But OPT has the TEC 140 in stock (they don't have any other scopes by TEC however). That's at least what their website says. Now why do you think my contact at OPT supports the TOA 130 instead of the TEC 140?

Bart


I seriously doubt OPT has a TEC140 in stock. OPT is a good outfit but their sales people are on commission so the rep was trying to help his cause by recommending the TOA. Or maybe he has one and is a brand loyalist as well.

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johnnyha
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #4198435 - 11/20/10 10:21 AM

I looked earlier and was surprised to see that OPT indeed has the TEC140 marked IN STOCK. OPT is excellent at keeping inventory and when they say something is IN STOCK you can bank on it.

Bart I would suspect your contact at OPT recommended the TOA because he has a bias towards Tak as clearly many do, or he felt you were looking for an imaging scope, or he had eight TOAs and only two TECs. (As I said, OPT is VERY GOOD at keeping inventory.) Call again today you will probably get a different salesman who recommends TEC.

But who you MIGHT SHOULD ALSO be listening to is the people who have OWNED the TOA130 and say if they could do it over again they would get the TEC140, including me, Sergio, Jim, and a number of others in this thread alone. Why would THEY recommend a TEC140 over the TOA130? We aren't salesman, let's just say that. And we all have high praise for the TOA130... But we are not dedicated imagers either. And by "imaging" I don't mean hanging a Canon 5D on the focuser with a T-ring, I mean dedicated large chip CCD imaging that requires 90mm clear aperture and adapters and coolers and specialized filters and flatteners, oh my!

Honestly you can't go wrong either way, anyway.


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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4198447 - 11/20/10 10:27 AM

Where did I say: "I doubt it that the new cells are better than the early ones"?

Actually, I said: "I suspect that Takahashi has adjusted its design to address this oversight in the original design, and the new ones are more robust."

Seems quite the opposite of the statement that you have attributed to me.

Putting the fabrications aside, my point is if you don't image (i.e., don't need the better correction), why take the risk of buying a scope model that has a history of alignment issues due to its demanding OG design based on the hope or assumption that the the updated design is adequate for all purposes.

Then there is the 2-day air shipping requirement...I can guarantee that all of my scopes take as much of a thumping being transported to and from observing sites as UPS or Fed Ex are likely to give them. If you want the US importer to stand behind the lens cell alignment you have to ship via a more expensive method that reduces the risk of what? Yep, of misalignment due to rough handling in transport!

So based on indicia that there could remain a risk of misalignment, the history of past alignment problems, and my personal lack of need of the extra color correction, my *opinion* is that the TOA design carries with it more risk for my intended use than other designs. Further, my opinion is that for others with similar observing patterns, the same analysis has merit, which is why I shared it.

You're right, you've been fairly balanced in describing the two designs. However, I believe that you've been unfairly critical of my opinions, which I've substantiated with facts, and the only fact you've offered in response is that you've not heard of misaligned OG elements. From that lone data point you have have opined that (a) the design must be robust and is no more fragile than other designs, and (b) that I am therefore offering "misinformation", going so far as to fabricate a statement and attribute it to me. That's where I smell the mint of minty green.

As for misinformation, neither you nor I "know" that the problem has been solved for good. So tell me, who's actually spreading misinformation? I think you don't like the opinion (it frightens you), so rather than considering it as potentially being valid, you're in denial going so far as to ignore inconvenient facts and fabricate statements that I never made.

Cheers,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/20/10 10:41 AM)


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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: andydj5xp]
      #4198463 - 11/20/10 10:33 AM

With respect to TEC's coatings, the coatings on the 140 are actually more complex than those on the larger instruments. The 140s get 7-layer multicoatings. The 160s and up have 5-layer multicoatings. I don't know why for sure, but suspect that the risk of roughness or other ills due to misapplied coatings goes up with a larger piece of glass. I recall that D&G used to say that they would coat larger lenses only at the buyer's risk.

Regards,

Jim


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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4198495 - 11/20/10 10:53 AM

Difference in margin?

OPT is a middleman.

Salesman's greater experience with Tak than TEC (I bought my Mewlon from OPT, and the salesman I worked with really liked Tak)?

He's an imager?

Could be any or all of the above, or something else. Ask him.

Regards,

Jim


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SteveC
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #4198531 - 11/20/10 11:09 AM

More like Bumblee Bee solid white tuna vs. Starkist.
or
Hanes boxers vs. Fruit of the Loom


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johnnyha
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4198546 - 11/20/10 11:17 AM

Quote:

I would like to use either scope with my 5D Mark II. Which company has accessories that are more available? Which are cheaper? Which of the two scopes would you recommend with that criteria?




Bart I realized no one had answered your question. All you need to image with any scope and the Canon5D is this T-ring adapter which has a nosepiece that fits right into the focuser. Focus telescope until the Canon comes to focus. Ready for action. You probably want one of these remote timers as well. Using this criteria neither scope is favored over the other IMO, and you should get stunning images. You may end up wantimg a flattener to clean up the edges in either scope, and a PowerMate or a reducer to change the focal length.


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4198551 - 11/20/10 11:19 AM

Pure imaging...the TOA. A mix of imaging and visual, the TEC. The big Feathertouch focuser is a work of art. If you've never used one, you will be stunned at the extreme quality. Add that to the fine optics of the TEC and you have a tremendous visual scope.

But if you're going to image exclusively, get the Tak.

David


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CounterWeight
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: SteveC]
      #4198598 - 11/20/10 11:45 AM

Hmmm, asking why a vendor would recommend one over the other, I'd say to ask them and not me. Also would ask their permission before (if) posting their response here by company logo. At least then we could address any information from our perspective. Here I see a possible issue with vendor / manufacturer relations so please tread thoughtfully / carefully?

Only 'outsider' thing I can think of is that Tak does offer 'dedicated' Barlows (1.6x) focal reducer(s), flatteners, connecting rings, for the TOA. The Tak scopes are systems with lots of accesories designed to work together. Here TEC is very different. In my queries on the TEC yahoo group for focal reducers I was steered to A-P stuff. Nothing wrong with that , but it is a big defference between the 2 manufacturers.


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Hypnotist
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #4198601 - 11/20/10 11:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I would like to use either scope with my 5D Mark II. Which company has accessories that are more available? Which are cheaper? Which of the two scopes would you recommend with that criteria?




Bart I realized no one had answered your question. All you need to image with any scope and the Canon5D is this T-ring adapter which has a nosepiece that fits right into the focuser. Focus telescope until the Canon comes to focus. Ready for action. You probably want one of these remote timers as well. Using this criteria neither scope is favored over the other IMO, and you should get stunning images.





If I "only" have a "simple" Canon 5D Mark II (and not a sophisicated CCD) would there be a difference between both scopes (in image quality)?

Don't forget I'll spend at least 50% of my time viewing.

Thanks
Bart


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LLEEGE
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4198631 - 11/20/10 12:05 PM

Either would require a flattener with the large sensor in the 5DMII. Both make dedicated flatteners for their scopes.

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johnnyha
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4198647 - 11/20/10 12:14 PM

I doubt there would be a difference in image quality between the two with a DSLR, the greater aperture of the TEC will probably equal out with the ever so slightly better photo color correction of the Tak. I can't say though from any personal experience but a quick glance around google images shows just simply stunning images produced by your camera with even small ED refractors, so.... The tracking accuracy of your mount will probably have a much bigger effect on the quality of the final image, not to mention the atmospheric seeing and accurate focus, digital processing, etc.

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Tamiji Homma
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4198653 - 11/20/10 12:19 PM

Hi Bart,

You might want to check out this book "The 100 Best Astrophotography Targets" by Ruben Kier, Practical Astronomy Series Springer. There are many photographs taken wtih TEC 140 f/7 in the book.

Link to Amazon

Tammy


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lionel
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4198733 - 11/20/10 12:59 PM

Takahashi has had a policy of 2-day air shipping with all their scopes for as long as I can remember, cassegrains and refractors. It's not limited to their refractors or specifically to the TOA series, so I think it's wrong to use that as a reason to question the robustness of the TOA series.

Lionel


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edif300
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #4198759 - 11/20/10 01:21 PM

Hi Bart,

TOA-130F (w/4inch focuser and 67FF) is the telescope for astrophotography.

For pure visual use, between TOA-130 and TEC140, I think you must go for TEC. (My choice for me would be different, I would make choice the TOA). Why TEC for you? Some minor advantage on visual use for TEC due different desing criteria (except better color correction of the TOA). But mainly because there is not available a Tak TSA-140 .

For 50 50, I think depends on what you will do in future. If you have clear plans for keeping in DSLR, go for TEC. If you do not clear and maybe could change the plans to ccd, go for TOA.

This is my opinion about your doubt.


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Hypnotist
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4199005 - 11/20/10 04:07 PM

What would you suggest if I don't know what I want to buy in the future?

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Moondust
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: t.r.]
      #4199100 - 11/20/10 05:01 PM






I agree with your observation 100%. I had the privilage of owning the AP 130 and AP 140 at the same time. The 10mm difference in glass was obvious at a single glance. I sold the 130. Surprisingly the gap seemed much narrower between my AP 155 and the 140.



I'll stand by my observations...10mm's difference CAN be seen at first glance. I never said it was a HUGE diferrence. Don't forget that on a so-so night, even a 90mm and a 150mm can apear to show the same level of detail...check out some of TODD GROSS's reports.
As for recommendations...I'd go with the TEC140 again anytime.




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Theodore Mattas
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #4199115 - 11/20/10 05:05 PM

My my...an Optcorp salesman "dared" recommend the TOA-130 over the TEC-140 to a client...and panic is widely spread over the forum
Analysis, and then even more analysis about the salesman's dark intensions and the possibility of an international conspiracy against Yuri Petrunin
There is you know a chance (just a tiny one) that the poor salesman simply believes (as many other do globally) that Takahashi produces better scopes than TEC... please don't shoot him for that

Regards from Greece
Teo

---------------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-130S
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow


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luck
sage


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Moondust]
      #4199174 - 11/20/10 05:25 PM

Moondust, please keep in mind that the scopes (AP130/140) that you have compared the focal-point differ by 231mm in favor of AP140. Compared to the TEC/TOA, 20mm focal-point difference in favor of the TOA. The focal-point can play a role in comparing these scopes.

AP 130 : F6.3 (819mm)
AP 140 : F7.5 (1050mm)

TOA130 : F7.7 (1000mm)
TEC140 : F7 (980mm)


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Theodore Mattas]
      #4199228 - 11/20/10 05:54 PM

I would like to ask exactly by what factors are the TAK better scopes than the TEC?
Is the focuser better?
Is the tube assembly of better quality?
Does it have a superior cell design?
Is it due to it weighing more?
Better support and easier to get repair?
Really, I just wonder what makes the TAK better than a TEC? Personally, I think they are fairly well matched for performance and the quality of either scope is on par with the other.
Blueman


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: luck]
      #4199241 - 11/20/10 05:57 PM

Hello Luck,
Your points are well taken and you are correct in you opinion.
Blueman

Moondust, please keep in mind that the scopes (AP130/140) that you have compared the focal-point differ by 231mm in favor of AP140. Compared to the TEC/TOA, 20mm focal-point difference in favor of the TOA. The focal-point can play a role in comparing these scopes.

AP 130 : F6.3 (819mm)
AP 140 : F7.5 (1050mm)
TOA130 : F7.7 (1000mm)
TEC140 : F7 (980mm)


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4199259 - 11/20/10 06:08 PM

Quote:

Hi,

I'm interested in buying a Takahashi TOA 130, for viewing but also for imaging (I have a Canon EOS 5D Mark II). I hear Takahashis are very well known for their quality (studiness, accuracy etc.). Now yesterday I was reading some stuff on it and people mentioned they'd rather have a TEC 140 which is also good in quality, but seemingly not quite up to Tak standards. That left me debating on if I wanted a Tak or a TEC. What do you think? (I've never really heard a complaint about the TOA 130, except that it's rather heavy!)

I'd appreciate your honest opinion!

Thanks and clear skies

Bart




Hi Bart,

I will share some thoughts here for you. There's a slogan that goes like this.... TEC TAK TEC TAK TEC TAK TEC TAK. Those two names alone sum up my apo fantasies completely. With that said I understand most observers desire for the added aperture but I will share a couple of experiences that may help you. If imaging is your biggest concern, the Tak may be the wiser choice in this particular case because the focuser on the Tak is super solid and Tak does have several imaging accessories dedicated to the TOA130. The 4" focuser also has a solid camera angle adjuster. Also, with regard to imaging, the TOA130 is completely color free. It can be mounted on a modified Losmandy G11 or an EM200 for example with little or no problems.

And another note with regard to comparing the two scopes visually. I love both, something that's really important that observers should know. The star test is a truly amazing and mesmerizing verification of the optics real identity. In my tests half way down this PAGE which I requested to be locked down, I had two air spaced triplets of the exact same make and brand. One was 102mm while its bigger brother was 115mm. Despite the difference in aperture, the 102mm actually outperformed its brother in every single regard. During a closer inspections of the star test in each model, the results were 100% confirmed. Also, in another test in this same review, another 102mm air spaced triplet, actually trumped a 110mm oil spaced triplet in every regard. Contrast crispness, clarity, overall picture. It will remain burned into my soul.

Now, as ironic as this may sound at first, the point of my sharing this is that if I had nothing else to go on, I'd just go with the extra 10mm aperture and just hope for the best BUT there are two things to consider. 10mm isn't going to make any difference for imaging. There are other factors that out weigh that. The other thing is that if the person you are buying the telescope from has lots of experience and has had a chance to test the scope and you truly trust that persons judgement, then I would go with the model that's been carefully scrutinized by its seller. We're actually talking about A+, A and A- here but if it really means that much to you, then that's how I'd choose because 10mm isn't enough to close the gap that easily. Perhaps weight may be a consideration, but either model is avery nice.

Evaluating telescopes in the field can be very time consuming, but I know right now two telescopes in the 4" aperture class that are absolutely state of the art and two different people own them. If I really wanted to purchase another 4", I would ask either one of these people to sell me one of theirs before I went searching. All I ever do is test as many models as I can when possible and make notes on where the exceptionally great models go, so that in the event I want one, I can check there first. Good luck.


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4199263 - 11/20/10 06:11 PM

I would like to have done more testing HERE but I need to make more effort. THIS is also extremely important.

Edited by Daniel Mounsey (11/20/10 06:14 PM)


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luck
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4199313 - 11/20/10 06:43 PM

It's good to hear from you Daniel!!!

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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: luck]
      #4199314 - 11/20/10 06:44 PM

Thank you. It's a pleasure

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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4199424 - 11/20/10 07:42 PM

"Despite the difference in aperture, the 102mm actually outperformed its brother in every single regard. During a closer inspections of the star test in each model, the results were 100% confirmed. Also, in another test in this same review, another 102mm air spaced triplet, actually trumped a 110mm oil spaced triplet in every regard. Contrast crispness, clarity, overall picture. It will remain burned into my soul."(DM)

I made a similar claim in the past...and was BURNED AT THE STAKE!
I believe I even used the same words,contrast, crispness,clarity...Thanks for verifying that it DOES happen.

Edited by t.r. (11/20/10 07:45 PM)


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4199509 - 11/20/10 08:27 PM

Hi everyone, I read this forum daily and made my latest scope purchase based on information I gathered here and other sites. This site is a wealth of information for someone looking to purchase a new scope. The opinions here carry a lot of weight since many of us don't have a selection of premium scopes at our disposal to compare. I narrowed my selection down to the Tak TOA-130 or the TEC140. A used Tak TOA-130s was posted on one of the forums at the time I was ready to buy. I purchased it and couldn't be happier with the decision. The seller was located in California and I had it shipped to Canada via standard UPS shipping. It was packed in the original triple Tak boxes and it arrived in perfect condition, including the collimation. I just wanted to point out that this is a 2005 TOA-130 and it survived a journey, not just a ride down a bumpy road. Check out the path it took and how many times it was handled. I'm sure the package would have been tossed a few times and like I said the collimation looks great.
Bart, you may want to consider the 4" focuser if you go with the Tak. Your 5D has a full frame sensor and it's quite possible the combo may vignette with the 2.7" focuser. Maybe someone else can chime in who's tried this combo.

Regards Faron

CONCORD, ON, CA 08/11/2010 11:31 DELIVERED
08/11/2010 5:34 OUT FOR DELIVERY
CONCORD, ON, CA 06/11/2010 0:20 ARRIVAL SCAN
WINDSOR, ON, CA 05/11/2010 20:06 DEPARTURE SCAN
05/11/2010 12:47 REGISTERED WITH CLEARING AGENCY
05/11/2010 12:15 PACKAGE DATA PROCESSED BY BROKERAGE. WAITING FOR CLEARANCE / RELEASED BY CLEARING AGENCY. NOW IN-TRANSIT FOR DELIVERY
05/11/2010 10:56 REGISTERED WITH CLEARING AGENCY / SHIPMENT SUBMITTED TO CLEARING AGENCY
05/11/2010 1:59 IMPORT SCAN
05/11/2010 0:19 ARRIVAL SCAN
FREDERICTON, NB, CA 04/11/2010 21:21 UPS IS AWAITING PAYMENT AUTHORIZATION FROM THE RECEIVER
MAUMEE, OH, US 04/11/2010 18:49 DEPARTURE SCAN
04/11/2010 17:56 ARRIVAL SCAN
HODGKINS, IN, US 04/11/2010 13:22 DEPARTURE SCAN
04/11/2010 13:09 ARRIVAL SCAN
HODGKINS, IL, US 04/11/2010 12:28 DEPARTURE SCAN
04/11/2010 9:46 ARRIVAL SCAN
LOS ANGELES, CA, US 02/11/2010 3:53 DEPARTURE SCAN
WINDSOR, ON, CA 02/11/2010 6:34 PACKAGE DATA PROCESSED BY BROKERAGE. WAITING FOR CLEARANCE
LOS ANGELES, CA, US 02/11/2010 0:17 ARRIVAL SCAN
SAN BERNARDINO, CA, US 01/11/2010 23:02 DEPARTURE SCAN
01/11/2010 22:07 ORIGIN SCAN
US 30/10/2010 18:05 BILLING INFORMATION RECEIVED

Tracking results provided by UPS: 20/11/2010 15:48 ET


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: FaronD]
      #4199534 - 11/20/10 08:40 PM

I think you made the correct choice for your particular situation.

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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: lionel]
      #4199539 - 11/20/10 08:43 PM

Back when I purchased an FS-60C and FS-78, there was no such requirement.

Here's the 2001 page:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010508153500/http://www.takahashiamerica.com/

Note, there's no mention of air shipping.

The TOAs arrived in 2002.

In August, 2002, still no mention of air shipping:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020802085000/http://www.takahashiamerica.com/

In September 2003, however, look what we have:

http://web.archive.org/web/20031206100709/takahashiamerica.com/main_dealers.htm

"To maintain a quality performance level expected of Takahashi products, we ship all optical tube assemblies (OTA's) via air freight to our dealers and customers. Because shipping rates have increased and while service quality among shippers has decreased, WE ENCOURAGE CUSTOMERS TO REQUEST AIR SHIPPING OF THESE INSTRUMENTS FROM THEIR DEALER. The additional price for this service is not substantial and will help ensure that your Takahashi equipment will perform to its designed specifications."

So it is false that there's been an air shipment recommendation forever. It is a fact that the air shipping recommendation coincides with volume shipment of the then-new TOA line.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/20/10 10:25 PM)


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: t.r.]
      #4199541 - 11/20/10 08:44 PM

Quote:

"Despite the difference in aperture, the 102mm actually outperformed its brother in every single regard. During a closer inspections of the star test in each model, the results were 100% confirmed. Also, in another test in this same review, another 102mm air spaced triplet, actually trumped a 110mm oil spaced triplet in every regard. Contrast crispness, clarity, overall picture. It will remain burned into my soul."(DM)

I made a similar claim in the past...and was BURNED AT THE STAKE!
I believe I even used the same words,contrast, crispness,clarity...Thanks for verifying that it DOES happen.





hmmmm, that's a bit odd, we'll just have to see about that.


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4199676 - 11/20/10 09:58 PM Attachment (67 downloads)

> Is the TEC a good photography scope?

I'm super happy with my TEC200. It surely has worse color correction than a TEC140 also.


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Cosmosphil
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4199680 - 11/20/10 10:00 PM

Bart,

A 6 page response for only a two day old post is quite something. I looks like you might have started a mini flame war.
You can see how many fans of both these companies products there are here at CN and how much they love these scopes.
Both companies and their products are legendary.

I faced a similar choice a couple of years ago.
Asked the same questions. The difference is that I don't do any imaging. I've been a visual observer for 35 yrs.

I think the question of 10mm increase has been put to rest.
Yes, it makes a difference visually. I spent an evening with a couple of friends viewing Jupiter. The other scope was an excellent example of an ES 127. The latest various incarnations of air spaced triplets from Chima are suprising in their performance. My friend is very happy with his sample. Still, to all of us, there was no question that more detail was seen and more color gradiants in the belts and zones were detected in the TEC. Period.
So, I can't imagine the addtl 3mm making all those differences go away. I'm just talking about resolution increase here. The magnifications used were between 200 and 300x. Seeing seemed just above 1 arc second so the scopes were not being limited by the atmosphere. The moons were individually sized with slight color differences.

Now, my decision was based on an visual observer's needs only. The TEC is lighter, less expensive, has a stunning focuser and yes, an extra 10mm. For me, it became something of a slam dunk. For you because of the imaging angle, the TOA my fit the bill just a bit better. I have not had a chance to used a TOA yet so I can't comment on the color correction other than to say that yes, the TOAs seem to be designed from the ground up for imaging and the TECs are definately designed for the visual observer.
I'll tell you, I'm so impressed with the TEC. So far, it is the finest optical instrument visually inch per inch I have ever used. So much so that I'm already on the list for Yuri's 2nd run of TEC 110s. The lens disease is deep, long lasting and very expensive to cure!


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Cosmosphil]
      #4199729 - 11/20/10 10:20 PM Attachment (70 downloads)

Here's those lesser TEC 5-layer coatings. The 7 layer coatings must be really something. My flash is directly pointed at them.

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deprofundis
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Cosmosphil]
      #4199739 - 11/20/10 10:24 PM

Quote:

I think the question of 10mm increase has been put to rest.
Yes, it makes a difference visually. I spent an evening with a couple of friends viewing Jupiter. The other scope was an excellent example of an ES 127. The latest various incarnations of air spaced triplets from Chima are suprising in their performance. My friend is very happy with his sample. Still, to all of us, there was no question that more detail was seen and more color gradiants in the belts and zones were detected in the TEC. Period.
So, I can't imagine the addtl 3mm making all those differences go away. I'm just talking about resolution increase here. The magnifications used were between 200 and 300x. Seeing seemed just above 1 arc second so the scopes were not being limited by the atmosphere. The moons were individually sized with slight color differences.




How can you be sure the differences were due to the extra 13mm as opposed to coatings, different optical design, better quality control in the TEC, etc? I'm not doubting that the extra 13mm makes a difference, but I would expect it to be very subtle.


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: deprofundis]
      #4199927 - 11/21/10 12:23 AM

Leaving aside the aperture, cost, and performance issues, the main advantage of Takahashi is that it is not a one-man shop. The corporation appears to have continuity. A one-man shop is susceptible to the vagaries of health, retirement, and all sorts of things.

All that said, however, some of the most famous names in astronomy are one-man shops. TEC, Losmandy, Stellarvue, AP, all one man shops. Unclear what kind of continuity there is if you buy in. I own a Losmandy and an AP mount so I haven't let the one-man shop syndrome stop me from buying in to good equipment. But I do think Takahashi is likely to be producing excellent refractors fifty years from now. I'm not sure TEC and AP will be doing so, but if AP is producing refractors in fifty years, the line will be 250 years long....

regards
Greg N


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4199948 - 11/21/10 12:44 AM



I was trying to get some reflection off the objective in this shot. You can see a bit at the edge of the cell opposite the camera.

Regards,

Jim


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: gnowellsct]
      #4199950 - 11/21/10 12:46 AM

Wow, now that Clark is dead, I guess they had better scrap the Lick refractor.

Regards,

Jim


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4199956 - 11/21/10 12:49 AM

Here's one where the camera elected to focus not on the objective, but rather on the plug in the focuser at the bottom of the tube assembly.



- Jim


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4199966 - 11/21/10 01:01 AM

Quote:

> Is the TEC a good photography scope?

I'm super happy with my TEC200. It surely has worse color correction than a TEC140 also.




Whoa Mike, there's something wrong with your scope. The left left side of that galaxy is a little droopy. Did you have your FF & field straighten outiner installed?


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4200008 - 11/21/10 01:55 AM

Is THAT the plug that comes with the TEC? Are you kidding? Have you seen the Tak focuser plug? It is literally a work of Art. (Literally, his name is Art, he's from Houston.) Not only that it weighs .07 ounces LESS than the TEC plug. Game, set, match Tak TOA130! OMG, can you say, "dealbreaker"?

Lock this thread, we're done. Pshew!






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lionel
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4200054 - 11/21/10 02:59 AM

Yup. Seven years is about as long as I have been following Takahashi products reasonably closely. And the reason the shipping requirement is placed on their reflectors and cassegrains? Obviously a red herring to divert attention from the fact that it's a policy really needed for the TOA's.

Sorry but I still think you are reaching with no evidence to relate the 2-day shipping requirement specifically to the TOA.

Lionel


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Cosmosphil]
      #4200061 - 11/21/10 03:13 AM

Quote:



I spent an evening with a couple of friends viewing Jupiter. The other scope was an excellent example of an ES 127. The latest various incarnations of air spaced triplets from Chima are suprising in their performance. My friend is very happy with his sample. Still, to all of us, there was no question that more detail was seen and more color gradiants in the belts and zones were detected in the TEC. Period.




Hi phil,

On a brief note I can understand how you came to those conclusions but just to make things fair in this case, even with a good sample of the ES127, it's important to mention that you are comparing a mass produced import to a world class telescope, so I would expect to see what you did. When I spoke of the differences in aperture between a 102mm and 115mm, they were both world class telescopes using some of the finest glass available. This is by now means meant to bad mouth Explore Scientific in fact I endorsed the ES127 for several months worth of ads in S&T magazine.


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4200063 - 11/21/10 03:19 AM

Quote:

Here's those lesser TEC 5-layer coatings. The 7 layer coatings must be really something. My flash is directly pointed at them.




Mike,
The coatings are one of the things that have always amazed me about the TEC's. I couldn't even see my own reflection in them.


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RTLR 12
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #4200073 - 11/21/10 04:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If you look on TEC's web site irlt says the two places to buy a new one are TEC themselves and Anacortes. So if I am answering the phones at OPT I would also probably steer you to a brand that my store carried. That's not being a bad vendor that's just life.





But OPT has the TEC 140 in stock (they don't have any other scopes by TEC however). That's at least what their website says. Now why do you think my contact at OPT supports the TOA 130 instead of the TEC 140?

Bart


I seriously doubt OPT has a TEC140 in stock. OPT is a good outfit but their sales people are on commission so the rep was trying to help his cause by recommending the TOA. Or maybe he has one and is a brand loyalist as well.




Just to put this to rest, OPT does in fact have a TEC 140 in stock. I placed my hands on the TEC 140 Saturday afternoon. It is set up on their showroom floor.

Stan


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4200093 - 11/21/10 05:16 AM

Quote:

What would you suggest if I don't know what I want to buy in the future?




TOA-130F with 67FF.

Regards,


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Hypnotist
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4200095 - 11/21/10 05:23 AM

Do you see your reflection in a TOA 130? Does no reflection mean the scope is better?

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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4200098 - 11/21/10 05:30 AM Attachment (65 downloads)

> Do you see your reflection in a TOA 130? Does no
> reflection mean the scope is better?

The Tak will have awesome coatings too.

p.s. If you change the camera angle on the TEC lens and light it right, you can see a full reflection.


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Richard McC
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: gnowellsct]
      #4200130 - 11/21/10 06:40 AM

Greg N - "Leaving aside the aperture, cost, and performance issues, the main advantage of Takahashi is that it is not a one-man shop. The corporation appears to have continuity. A one-man shop is susceptible to the vagaries of health, retirement, and all sorts of things..."

I'm not so sure about that but I could be wrong (if anybody spots any errors in this post please correct me because I'd like to know!). At Astro-Physics, Roland finishes each and every lens. At TEC, I believe there are two or three opticians working for Yuri. At Takahashi, fabricating lenses certainly used to be - and I believe still is - contracted out to a Canon subsidiary (the same one that makes the lenses for the more up-market Vixen scopes). So Tak's continuity is partly at the whim of an outside supplier. I agree that all three companies make great products and a well looked after scope from any of them should last generations.


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Richard McC]
      #4200141 - 11/21/10 06:54 AM

Quote:

At Takahashi, fabricating lenses certainly used to be - and I believe still is - contracted out to a Canon subsidiary (the same one that makes the lenses for the more up-market Vixen scopes).




The elements for the FS-60C and Sky-90 come from Optron division of Canon.

The glass for the lens blanks on the TOA, TSA are purchased from Ohara in Sagamihara, a suburb of Tokyo.

-UTakgroup-


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4200198 - 11/21/10 07:56 AM

Thank you for mentioning Optron, I couldn't remember the company's name. The blanks for the TOA and TSA scopes might come from Ohara (who supply many refractor makers) but who is doing the final polishing and figuring? Or are you telling me that these processes have moved in-house to Takahashi now?

Thanks in advance!


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edif300
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Richard McC]
      #4200378 - 11/21/10 10:21 AM

Quote:

who is doing the final polishing and figuring?




Takahashi grinds and polishes these lens blanks from Ohara.


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johnnyha
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4200398 - 11/21/10 10:30 AM

...so this is also a battle of "made in Japan" v "made in USA"...

Regardless, we can be sure of one thing - both excellent, gorgeous telescopes made by people with funny accents.




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wormstar
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #4200528 - 11/21/10 11:30 AM

"Just to put this to rest, OPT does in fact have a TEC 140 in stock. I placed my hands on the TEC 140 Saturday afternoon. It is set up on their showroom floor."

Not a selling point for me! Too many people with thier grubby mitts on it:)


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gnowellsct
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4201127 - 11/21/10 04:21 PM Attachment (50 downloads)

And if you get the camera angle right on a C14 corrector plate, you get no reflection. (well the dowel used for collimation has a reflection but it doesn't look like there's glass there)

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JLP
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: wormstar]
      #4201129 - 11/21/10 04:24 PM

I also confirm a TEC 140 @ OPT. Since I'm local, I'd have no objection to purchasing a floor model, as I'd have my hands AND eyes all over it before I bought it. It is a looker...I have a TOA 130 and like it very much!! The TEC is lighter, and I am visual only. I'd have no problem selling my TOA and replace it with a TEC 140 if I get any weaker with old age .
JLP


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gnowellsct
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4201135 - 11/21/10 04:27 PM

Quote:

Wow, now that Clark is dead, I guess they had better scrap the Lick refractor.

Regards,

Jim




It's going to be a lot more difficult to get a Clark serviced than a Tak these days. And they ARE trying to scrap the Lick.

This is an elementary point. When TMB went he took TMB with him. Tak may or may not have Canon do its lenses, if it does, more power to them, because Canon is one of the strongest names in the world. But Tak has been around, if memory serves, since the 1930s.

A lot of the big name shops like AP and Televue won't work on other brand refractors, even though they have the know-how. So if you have an out of date refractor you have significant problems.

But yeah sure I'd be a Tec or an AP. (except I got a good price on a Tak)

Greg N


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Cosmosphil
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: wormstar]
      #4201204 - 11/21/10 05:02 PM

I'm a bit confused. Does OPT indeed now carry Yuri's products or was this a trade-in sitting on the floor? My understanding is that only Anacortes was the "outside" dealer for TEC here in America. Anyway, most folks deal direct with Yuri. It just feels more comfortable. If there are delays you get the exact info immediately.

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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: gnowellsct]
      #4201215 - 11/21/10 05:09 PM

Thomas was a designer. His designs persist after his untimely death. The LZOS/APM triplets are TMB-designed and still available. The TMB Optical scopes, likewise, remain available and manufactured to his designs. To my knowledge, Thomas never had anything to do with execution, fabrication or manufacturing at either company, so I'm not sure what you meant by "he took TMB with him".

Regards,

Jim


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blueman
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4201269 - 11/21/10 05:33 PM Attachment (56 downloads)

My TEC 140 is the best scope that I have used so far for photography.
Blueman


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blueman
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #4201274 - 11/21/10 05:36 PM

Quote:

Here's those lesser TEC 5-layer coatings. The 7 layer coatings must be really something. My flash is directly pointed at them.




Hey, I will trade you my superior 7 layer coated TEC 140 for your inferior 5 layer TEC 200! Straight across!
Blueman


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JLP
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Cosmosphil]
      #4201330 - 11/21/10 05:56 PM

When I saw the TEC 140 at OPT, I asked Mike (behind the counter) if it was a trade-in. He said no, they (OPT) had started to carry TEC. It had the lens cover on, and I didn't attempt to remove it, but I lusted after the FT focuser!!
JLP


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LLEEGE
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: JLP]
      #4201379 - 11/21/10 06:15 PM

Yes, OPT carries TEC scopes now. I just find it hard to believe they actually have one in stock. Good thing they don't have a 180FL listed as "In Stock". I'd take that over any of the afore mentioned scopes in a heartbeat! As well as others not mentioned.

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LLEEGE
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: gnowellsct]
      #4201384 - 11/21/10 06:16 PM

Quote:

And if you get the camera angle right on a C14 corrector plate, you get no reflection. (well the dowel used for collimation has a reflection but it doesn't look like there's glass there)


That looks like one tricked out C14!

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MrGrytt
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4201397 - 11/21/10 06:23 PM

Quote:

To my knowledge, Thomas never had anything to do with execution, fabrication or manufacturing at either company, so I'm not sure what you meant by "he took TMB with him".

Regards,

Jim




Originally a "real TMB" was considered to be a scope that was purchased directly from him. It involved a lot of "special touches" and assurance that it was as close to perfect as possible.

He polished the tubes to an automotive finish, he selected the LZOS optics, tested them on his double-pass auto-collimator, aligned and tuned the focusers, aligned/collomated the optics and finished with a star test under the night sky. He would not sell a scope that he wasn't willing to keep as his own.

He was not involved in the fabrication but if a scope was sold as a TMB he personally made sure that it would live up to his expectations.

You could buy the same scope from APM but it would be without any involvement from Thomas other than the design of the optic.

Harvey


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Cosmosphil
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: JLP]
      #4201410 - 11/21/10 06:31 PM

Well, that's fantastic! The more folks that carry and push Yuri's scopes the better. And you could not ask for a better bunch to work with than the folks at OPT.

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John Boudreau
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4201635 - 11/21/10 08:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

who is doing the final polishing and figuring?




Takahashi grinds and polishes these lens blanks from Ohara.




While Tak does the optical work on their own mirrors and they do design their own refractor objectives, the production refractor lenses themselves are outsourced through Canon. This has been mentioned by Art at TNR on the Takahashi Yahoo Group several times in the past.

Tak does set the lens spacing and collimation in house though.

---John


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edif300
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: John Boudreau]
      #4202164 - 11/22/10 01:31 AM

Quote:

the production refractor lenses themselves are outsourced through Canon. This has been mentioned by Art at TNR on the Takahashi Yahoo Group several times in the past.

Tak does set the lens spacing and collimation in house though.




According a private conversation with Art years ago, this is only true for telescopes with Fluorite elements. For the Sky-90 and the FS-60C.

The ED glass (and all other elements) for the lens blanks on the TOA, TSA are purchased from Ohara, grinds, polishes and multicoated by Tak.


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John Boudreau
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4202479 - 11/22/10 08:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

the production refractor lenses themselves are outsourced through Canon. This has been mentioned by Art at TNR on the Takahashi Yahoo Group several times in the past.

Tak does set the lens spacing and collimation in house though.




According a private conversation with Art years ago, this is only true for telescopes with Fluorite elements. For the Sky-90 and the FS-60C.

The ED glass (and all other elements) for the lens blanks on the TOA, TSA are purchased from Ohara, grinds, polishes and multicoated by Tak.





I can only go on what Art himself has posted on the matter in other forums and even here on CN early last year:
link

Through the years I have seen many posts on the Tak Group, A-Mart Forums, and even some here on CN where Art goes into this.

---John


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edif300
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: John Boudreau]
      #4202623 - 11/22/10 10:13 AM

Interesting, I will ask again about it in order to get a clear light.
Regards,


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Hypnotist
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: edif300]
      #4202715 - 11/22/10 11:04 AM

What do you think about a Tak TOA 130 with the EM 200 mount? Is that a good setup? What does that package come with? What will I need for my 5D Mark II along with those things?

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Ira
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4202821 - 11/22/10 11:54 AM

Wow. This thread is still going.



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edif300
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Hypnotist]
      #4202838 - 11/22/10 12:08 PM

Quote:

What do you think about a Tak TOA 130 with the EM 200 mount? Is that a good setup?




A friend is using the same configuration... TOA-130F+67FF, but QHY-9 ccd.

Quote:

What does that package come with?




With the tube comes the TOA-130FB, 4" focuser, Camera Angle Adjuster, 50.8mm and 31.8mm eyepiece adapters.

With the EM-200Temma2M comes the equatorial head, power plug and hand controller. Do not include the tripod.

There is also available a complete system TOA-130FB/EM-200T2M.

To get better support you must ask to Art at TNR (artc@takahashiamerica.com)

Quote:

What will I need for my 5D Mark II along with those things?




67 Field Flattener (TOA130FF)
CA-35 (TCA-1030)
Wide-T mount for Canon EOS (TMW0004)
Extra 5kg Counterweight (TCW0200)
Guiding cable for the EM-200 Temma2M according your guiding setup.

Tripod for EM-200 is included in complete system purchase.

Tube rings + couplers (losmandy saddle plate...) to mount the tube in to the EM or Tak tube holder. Tak Tube holder is included in complete system purchase.


I think that you must talk with Arthur.
Regards,


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Mike28
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: DeanS]
      #4203171 - 11/22/10 03:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I understand that the TOAs (at least the 150s) have been susceptible to misalignment due to jarring. In fact, I think Takahashi made changes to the TOA-150 cell early on to combat this. You're talking big, heavy lens cells with large (glass-insulated) air pockets between them. The difficulty of execution of this design was undertaken for one purpose - color correction for imaging. I suspect the TOAs will be more apt to come out of alignment over time as a result, but who knows.





I wonder where did you find information regarding this..."misalignment" issue.
As a member of Yahoo Tak users, and Takahashi community on Facebook...I have never ever heard a TOA-150 user complaining about lens misalignment.
Please provide "evidence" (a link or something), I'm interesting in learning more.

Teo

---------------------------------------------
Takahashi TOA-13OS
Zeiss Abbe II ortho set + 2X Barlow




Not sure if I ever posted my issue on the Tak group, but.....

I bought my toa-150 used, found out later that evening, and 7 hours away, that it was really far out of collimation. Was sent back to Art and Fred at TNR. They said the cell was bad, replaced it with a brand new one direct from Japan, and only charged a small amount for the labor. Luckily the guy I bought it from stood behind it and covered all the expenses of which shipping was the biggest. Now I have basically a brand new scope, particularly since I upgraded to the B model focuser.

So yes it has happened in the past to more than just me but I believe Tak as taken care of what ever caused the problem.




TNR really does stand by their TAK scopes. As far as the issue with the older TAKs, it seems the older batch of TOA150's had issues with the cell coming loose from being jarred. This was corrected with replacement parts for them. I should know, my order for a new TOA150F delayed since no more new TAKs were coming into the U.S. from Japan until Takahashi corrected the issue. My 150F was brand new off assembly line with the new upgraded cell compartment so I never had an issue. I had a TOA130S that I sold when my order of TOA150 finally came in. I was sorry I sold the TOA130, I considered it one of the best scopes (for it's size) I ever owned. The focuser was ok but I had upgraded it with the Feather touch micro focuser. A real nice piece of equipment to have....


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DeanS
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Ira]
      #4203192 - 11/22/10 03:16 PM

Quote:

Wow. This thread is still going.






Keeps going, and going, and going,,,,,,,,,,,


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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike28]
      #4203289 - 11/22/10 04:16 PM

"I should know, my order for a new TOA150F delayed since no more new TAKs were coming into the U.S. from Japan until Takahashi corrected the issue."

Out of curiosity, when was that Mike?

Thanks,

Jim


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Mike28
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4207625 - 11/24/10 05:17 PM

Cells were jarring loose causing collimation issues. I first found out through some owners who had encountered same. Then I realized why I had a year wait on my scope. Back orders for other customers and the corrction of the scopes. I suspect newer scopes had a more tighter seal around the elements/glass. I encountered an issue with one collimation screw a year after purchase the image was slightly off. The dealer here could not collimate it cause the screw keeped turning. We sent the scope back to TNR who replaced it and collimated the scope. I havent had any issues since. Like I said the stand by their products.

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johnnyha
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike28]
      #4207852 - 11/24/10 07:11 PM

Yeah, "Art at Texas Nautical Repair" is a good argument for getting the TOA130 or anything Takahashi. He really knows his stuff and as everyone says he backs their products 100%. I've spoken to him many times on the phone and he's not just knowledgeable, he's a real problem solver.

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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Mike28]
      #4207895 - 11/24/10 07:36 PM

Mike:

My question was "when" as in "when (i.e., month/year approximately) was the interruption of deliveries" that you describe. I'm trying to figure out how long from the first shipment into the US it took to discover the issues and then address it.

It's good that they did what they should have done to remedy a design defect, but I think that's to be expected. Even Orion fixes problems of its own or its manufacturer's making.

Regards,

Jim


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Mike28
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #4213210 - 11/27/10 01:46 PM

Quote:

Mike:

My question was "when" as in "when (i.e., month/year approximately) was the interruption of deliveries" that you describe. I'm trying to figure out how long from the first shipment into the US it took to discover the issues and then address it.

It's good that they did what they should have done to remedy a design defect, but I think that's to be expected. Even Orion fixes problems of its own or its manufacturer's making.

Regards,

Jim




That's hard to answer Jim. I ordered my scope in 2005.I didnt recieve it until 2006. Past issues might have been in 04'/'05. I also remember reading a post of a shootout betweem the Tak, TEC, AP and some other 6" refractors at a Texas star party. There was mention that the owner of the Tak had some issues and though the image was good, it just didnt have a perfectly clear image. He had the scope collimated sevar times. The writer of the review shortly removed that info from his site. As far as I know, owners who had the issue with their Taks had them corrected.


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Moondust
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: luck]
      #4214426 - 11/28/10 03:21 AM






Except for the fact that my AP 130 was the F/8.3 version nearly the same focal length as the AP 140 and the advantage to the 140 was still obvious at a glance as stated before. I have to say I really don't understand your post at all. What does focal length have to do with it? 100X in a 130 F/6.3 and 100X in a 140 F/7.5 is still 100X. Any brightness differences discerned between the 2 scopes is due to aperture not focal length.


Quote:

Moondust, please keep in mind that the scopes (AP130/140) that you have compared the focal-point differ by 231mm in favor of AP140. Compared to the TEC/TOA, 20mm focal-point difference in favor of the TOA. The focal-point can play a role in comparing these scopes.

AP 130 : F6.3 (819mm)
AP 140 : F7.5 (1050mm)

TOA130 : F7.7 (1000mm)
TEC140 : F7 (980mm)




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Ziggy943
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Cosmosphil]
      #4215761 - 11/28/10 08:00 PM

Quote:

Well, that's fantastic! The more folks that carry and push Yuri's scopes the better. And you could not ask for a better bunch to work with than the folks at OPT.




Except maybe Yuri himself.


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timps
sage


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Ziggy943]
      #5699303 - 02/25/13 04:41 AM

Hey. I just found this thread. I am considering purchasing one of these scopes. At the moment favouring the TEC 140. However, I may even consider the Istar 6" flourite triplet! Does anyone know anything about the Istar?

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tomcody
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: timps]
      #5700114 - 02/25/13 03:52 PM


Round two!


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madcity
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: timps]
      #6385698 - 02/19/14 10:29 PM

Oh, why not join in ...

Also just discovered this thread, and I'm in the same quandary. AP130 (on list), TOA130 ... and suddenly the TEC pops up as a choice. Visual + imaging (STF8300). This thread has been quite illuminating. I just hope talking to vendors at NEAF2014 will clarify matters.

Or not.

With one exception, I haven't seen anyone weigh in on what seems to be a very heavy scope (the Tak). Since I take my scopes to my club's site, could someone address portability. (I'm healthy and strong enough, but I'm in the "senior citizen" demographic, and at some point schlepping heavy stuff may no longer be fun.) Has weight been a (deciding) factor in what anyone bought?

Decisions, decisions ...

Edited by madcity (02/19/14 10:33 PM)


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tomcody
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: madcity]
      #6386276 - 02/20/14 08:51 AM

TEC 140 = 19 lb
TOA 130 = 22 lb ( 2.7" focuser) + 2.5 lb for optional weight ring
TOA 130 + 25 lb ( 4" focuser) no balance ring needed

They are all close in weight and will require the same class of mount for imaging, so in this case weight is not really a factor.

And yes to answer you question, many people go with smaller scopes to reduce the size of the mount needed to carry them as a 5 to 10 lb difference in scope weight can mean a 30 lb or more weight jump in mounts. For example, I use a 16 lb Tak FS128 on a 35 lb Losmandy GM8. If I went to a Tak TOA 130, I would probably need to upgrade to a G11 mount at about 85 lb, big difference!
rex


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AustinAstronomer
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: tomcody]
      #6386467 - 02/20/14 10:30 AM

You may (or may not) be a little off on the weight of the TOA-130NS (w/ 2.7" focuser).

The TOA-130 manual, available online via Yahoo, states that the TOA-130NS weighs "about" 10.5 kg (i.e., 23.1 pounds), while the TOA-130NF weighs "about" 11.4 kg (i.e., 25.1 pounds). It is implicit in the manual's discussion that the TOA-130NS's weight INCLUDES the weight of the counterweight ring.

But, if your data is based on personal experience, then I must defer to you.

Edited by AustinAstronomer (02/20/14 10:31 AM)


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RAKing
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: AustinAstronomer]
      #6386502 - 02/20/14 10:49 AM

I have owned both scopes and those weights are a little optimistic. For one thing, they do not include the rings and dovetail. Add those on and my TOA (2.7") was north of 28 pounds. Yuri's rings and dovetail are much smaller and my TEC is about 23-24 pounds right now.

This isn't a big difference, but I had a herniated disk that required surgery last year and there were way too many nights when the TOA had to stay inside.

I liked the TOA. It was super sharp and the colors were great. But the TEC is lighter, the colors are just as good -- and let's not forget the bigger and brighter 140mm lens. It does make a difference. PLUS - don't forget the TEC comes with either the magnificent Feathertouch 3545 focuser - or a clone that Yuri has built himself. You will have to upgrade the Tak focuser with Feathertouch gears and you still don't have anything as good as the FT3545. To me it's no contest.

Cheers,

Ron


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Denimsky
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: RAKing]
      #6386910 - 02/20/14 02:11 PM

I know that TOA-130 design with the dedicated reducer produces 3 micron sized stars on axis. I think that is very impressive.
Does TEC 140 have spot diagrams available?


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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: RAKing]
      #6386937 - 02/20/14 02:24 PM

Ron,
Your right, my weights are ota only.
On my 15.5 lb FSQ106N for example, the ota, camera, filter wheel, robofocus motor, guider/ with e-finder, rings and dovetail totaled over 27 lb, big difference! the point being for imaging one needs extra capacity on the mount.
Rex


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madcity
member


Reged: 04/22/04

Loc: WI, USA
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: tomcody]
      #6387141 - 02/20/14 04:26 PM

Interesting responses. Thanks.

This may be grist for a different thread, but ...

(1) What is all the weight good for? Yes, the glass is heavy, but the mechanical tubes vary widely in weight. Does weight in any way translate into greater rigidity on a *vendor* basis, or is rigidity more a scope-by-scope thing? Greater mass means (generally) slower thermal equalization times (in addition to sealed barrel/Petzval designs). So ... how is the greater mass put to a good use? And why aren't OTAs put on a "diet" (or is it a manufacturing/cost issue)?

(2) Non-metallic (eg, carbon fiber) tubes are showing up in reflectors. Any movement by any of the high-end refractor companies to move in that direction (or are there some and I'm missing them)? I know it'd take either retooling or outsourcing the OTA barrel, but it'd make for lighter barrels. How do non-metallic barrels "thermalize" compared to metal?


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JCAZ
sage


Reged: 08/11/09

Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: RAKing]
      #6387150 - 02/20/14 04:30 PM

Quote:

I liked the TOA. It was super sharp and the colors were great. But the TEC is lighter, the colors are just as good --




"Color just as good" - not likely, and Yuri will tell you that himself.


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tomcody
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 07/06/08

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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: madcity]
      #6387175 - 02/20/14 04:40 PM

1.
The weight is in four areas:
A. OTA tube weight, depends on diameter, length (FL) how the baffles are made and just get heavier as size increases.
B. focuser weight: 2",3",4" size goes from about 2.4LB for a Tak 2.7" focuser to about 5LB for a 3.5" FT.
C. lens glass: gets heavy on a 5" or 6" triplet
D. lens cell: air,spaced lens cells are heavier than oil spaced lens cells due to the need for,precise lens spacing in them.
2.
Composite vs metal ota assemblies have been discussed many times in these forums and I would suggest you read some of the arguments posted.
Rex


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rainycityastro
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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Denimsky]
      #6387211 - 02/20/14 05:06 PM

Quote:


Does TEC 140 have spot diagrams available?




I've wondered about this myself. I am especially curious as to how well the TEC does deep in the violet region.


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RAKing
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Reged: 12/28/07

Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: JCAZ]
      #6389044 - 02/21/14 04:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I liked the TOA. It was super sharp and the colors were great. But the TEC is lighter, the colors are just as good --




"Color just as good" - not likely, and Yuri will tell you that himself.




It doesn't matter to me what anyone else says. I think Yuri might have been a bit self-depricating. I have had both scopes on the same target at the same time and I'll believe what I saw with my own eyes. YMMV.

FWIW - my wife liked the colors seen through the Tak FS-128 better than either the TOA or the TEC. She is a jewelry design artist working in borosilicate glass and precious metal.

We have our favorites; you have yours.

Ron

PS - I am still wondering why people want to resurrect threads that are almost FOUR-YEARS OLD. What's up with that?


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herrointment
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Reged: 03/12/11

Loc: North of Hwy. 64
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: RAKing]
      #6389225 - 02/21/14 05:43 PM

Maybe to re-visit old friends.

They may not be seen again!


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
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Reged: 11/26/05

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Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: herrointment]
      #6389235 - 02/21/14 05:48 PM

Amazingly some astrophotographers have managed to cope with the color correction of the TEC140:

http://www.optique-unterlinden.com/images/amateurs/OUTTERS-Nicolas/TEC140-NGC...

(tongue in cheek... the 140 are killer)


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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: RAKing]
      #6389544 - 02/21/14 09:32 PM

Maybe the color differences various people are seeing between these telescopes one the same object is because of their different eyesight. Why, in my color-free Dobs during out reach observing different people each see different shades of colors of the same object being viewed. Its very interesting. Tells you something about eyesight and subjectivity.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I liked the TOA. It was super sharp and the colors were great. But the TEC is lighter, the colors are just as good --




"Color just as good" - not likely, and Yuri will tell you that himself.




It doesn't matter to me what anyone else says. I think Yuri might have been a bit self-depricating. I have had both scopes on the same target at the same time and I'll believe what I saw with my own eyes. YMMV.

FWIW - my wife liked the colors seen through the Tak FS-128 better than either the TOA or the TEC. She is a jewelry design artist working in borosilicate glass and precious metal.

We have our favorites; you have yours.

Ron

PS - I am still wondering why people want to resurrect threads that are almost FOUR-YEARS OLD. What's up with that?




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Fomalhaut
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 08/16/08

Loc: Switzerland
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #6389946 - 02/22/14 07:08 AM

Quote:

Maybe the color differences various people are seeing between these telescopes one the same object is because of their different eyesight. Why, in my color-free Dobs during out reach observing different people each see different shades of colors of the same object being viewed. Its very interesting. Tells you something about eyesight and subjectivity.




IMO you're right. Human colour sensitivity obviously covers a huge bandwidth from very high to near colour-blind. From the latter side often come attributes such as "apochromatic" or "color-free!" for cheap EDs or queries like "Why an expensive super-apochromat if an ED-doublet suffices?" and so on ...

Chris


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RAKing
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/28/07

Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: Fomalhaut]
      #6390058 - 02/22/14 08:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Maybe the color differences various people are seeing between these telescopes one the same object is because of their different eyesight. Why, in my color-free Dobs during out reach observing different people each see different shades of colors of the same object being viewed. Its very interesting. Tells you something about eyesight and subjectivity.




IMO you're right. Human colour sensitivity obviously covers a huge bandwidth from very high to near colour-blind. From the latter side often come attributes such as "apochromatic" or "color-free!" for cheap EDs or queries like "Why an expensive super-apochromat if an ED-doublet suffices?" and so on ...

Chris




I agree completely. Color is a very subjective topic.

Cheers,

Ron


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JCAZ
sage


Reged: 08/11/09

Re: Takahashi TOA 130 vs. TEC 140 new [Re: RAKing]
      #6390310 - 02/22/14 11:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I liked the TOA. It was super sharp and the colors were great. But the TEC is lighter, the colors are just as good --




"Color just as good" - not likely, and Yuri will tell you that himself.




It doesn't matter to me what anyone else says. I think Yuri might have been a bit self-depricating. I have had both scopes on the same target at the same time and I'll believe what I saw with my own eyes. YMMV.

FWIW - my wife liked the colors seen through the Tak FS-128 better than either the TOA or the TEC. She is a jewelry design artist working in borosilicate glass and precious metal.

We have our favorites; you have yours.

Ron

PS - I am still wondering why people want to resurrect threads that are almost FOUR-YEARS OLD. What's up with that?




Not really my favorites, it's physics. And there are plenty of threads that discuss it.


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