clintwhitman
Caveman
Reged: 01/01/07
Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: hottr6]
#4923896 - 11/19/11 06:43 AM Attachment (58 downloads)
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Well some time things fall from the sky and land in your hands. That was the case with the Pearl, Find of a lifetime was the phrase. She fell in my hands. I frequent Mtn Pinos and am friends with guys like Provin, Pons, Kennedy, Grissom. I have had allot of time over the years at this 8500 foot wonderland of telescopes cruzing the best and largest optics in the USA. The 9" F10 AP stands right next to and exceeds some of the best of them. It is now installed in the Star Oak Observatory out back at our little ranch. I spend way to much time out there. I can have it up and running in 3 minutes! I even go out in the morning before work and just look at her... 
I know one thing for sure, If I sold this AP I would be kicking myself for selling it the rest of my life!! I did somthing that stupid once. I purchased a mint 1947 Gretch Syncromatic guitar for $200! I sold it in 1992 for $4k.. Dumb Dumb Kick Kick. Its now worth maybe 4 to 5 times that. Plus I will never find another one or get to play it again... Lucky, I was smart enough to purchase a 1969 Stratocast for a little over $300 and kept it for the past 23 years.... I just turned down $18K for it from a guy who cant even play.
Collectors
Clint (aveman Whitman and Ed Byers with the Pearl @ Pinos CSPAMP IV 2011
Edited by clintwhitman (11/19/11 06:53 AM)
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Starhawk
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/16/08
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: clintwhitman]
#4924049 - 11/19/11 09:50 AM
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This thread is quite amusing. Everyone talks about these like they are an expensive hobby. Price a Harley, a boat, or an airplane. Even the expensive telescopes are hilariously cheap in comparison. The fact there are a few creeping up in value is more a statement of the worth of the activity.
Alternately, in a corporate setting, a $35k expenditure is so small, it's hard to get a buyer to spend the time to make the requisition. There, the dollar value where it starts being expensive is more like $100k-$1M.
If you had a $650k budget to put a visitor center together, I sincerely hope you'd consider spending $50k on the optic you were supposed to be showing people the wonders of the universe with, instead of a mediocre image through a bargain basement instrument which leaves them underwhelmed.
-Rich
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Nimbus42
member
Reged: 11/11/11
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: Starhawk]
#4924060 - 11/19/11 09:59 AM
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Amen to that. Astronomy is the only hobby I know except for knitting where 10k can get you pretty high-brow toys to play with. But When you don't have the cash it plain sks
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Illinois
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/06
Loc: near Chicago, Illinois USA
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: Nimbus42]
#4924382 - 11/19/11 01:39 PM
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Astronomy is pretty cheaper hobby compare to Bass fishing! Bass Boat over $30,000,6 or 7 rods/reel= Good rod and reel is about $250 each,, lot of lures between $2 and $8 each gas, travel, etc! Of course I love fishing! Golf - you pay 40 dollars to play 18 holes per day!
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
Reged: 11/17/05
Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: Illinois]
#4924548 - 11/19/11 03:21 PM
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Astronomy is pretty cheaper hobby compare to Bass fishing! Bass Boat over $30,000,6 or 7 rods/reel= Good rod and reel is about $250 each,, lot of lures between $2 and $8 each gas, travel, etc! Of course I love fishing! Golf - you pay 40 dollars to play 18 holes per day!
Well that bass boat can be used for other recreations then fishing. skiing...tubing..etc. A telescope is generally a one subject tool.
On the other hand..building your own scopes can be even less expensive. Personally I'd never spend 35K for any hobby.
Rob
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Illinois
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/06
Loc: near Chicago, Illinois USA
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: rwiederrich]
#4924618 - 11/19/11 04:05 PM
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I agreed about boat! 35,000 dollars for one telescope is not for me! My 4 telescopes total is about $4,400!
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WarrenS
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/04/08
Loc: Orange County New York
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: Illinois]
#4924680 - 11/19/11 04:54 PM
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I'm the original OP four pages back and after reading everything in this thread I've kinda come to a couple of conclusions. First, my original thoughts were in the world of $10,000 give or take 6" premium refractors I thought $25,000 for that extra inch was a little bit excessive. I did not think of scopes as being "collectible", although I do now.
Secondly, I'm very tempted to put my name on Astro-Physics list for one of their refractors as I'd have 10-12 years to save up for it. Then I'd enjoy it very carefully, not daring to have the paint scratched!
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gillmj24
Post Laureate
Reged: 12/06/05
Loc: PA
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: WarrenS]
#4924740 - 11/19/11 05:41 PM
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Except that it's most likely too late for you to get a new AP brand telescope. The prices from the other premium apo makers are not going down either.
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Starhawk
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/16/08
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: gillmj24]
#4925051 - 11/19/11 09:01 PM
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You're too late to get on the list for APs, from what Roland is saying. But, there is a fellow with a BNIB AP130 EDFGT on sale on the other website, along with a low time unit with the rings and dovetail on a newer ad.
-Rich
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WarrenS
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/04/08
Loc: Orange County New York
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: Starhawk]
#4925153 - 11/19/11 10:24 PM
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You're too late to get on the list for APs, from what Roland is saying. But, there is a fellow with a BNIB AP130 EDFGT on sale on the other website, along with a low time unit with the rings and dovetail on a newer ad.
-Rich
Well, I just received the auto response email from AP that I'm on their 140mm F7.5 notification list. I guess the question is will Roland still be around to "oversee" production of my scope sometime in the next decade. I'll need those 10 years or so to save up my nickels and dimes any way.
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contrailmaker
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/02/09
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: WarrenS]
#4925389 - 11/20/11 02:25 AM
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I'd guess that Roland has picked a worthy sucessor to continue producing Astro Physics scopes after he retires. If not, AP scopes will hold their value for a long time to come.
cm
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Starhawk
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/16/08
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: contrailmaker]
#4925824 - 11/20/11 10:46 AM
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I've not heard of a Roland successor. My understanding is there have been several attempts to create one without success. The last version on the lists is if you haven't been on the 130 list for at least 7 years, you probably aren't getting one. Anyone have a more recent input?
I thought I had a 3 year wait when I went on that list; it ended up being 9 years and 15 days. Roland has said he will keep the 130s in production as long as he can, but there are limits, both technical and human.
If the production of AP OTAs stops, then we have yet to see their ultimate value.
-Rich
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WarrenS
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/04/08
Loc: Orange County New York
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: Starhawk]
#4926106 - 11/20/11 12:49 PM
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I've not heard of a Roland successor. My understanding is there have been several attempts to create one without success. The last version on the lists is if you haven't been on the 130 list for at least 7 years, you probably aren't getting one. Anyone have a more recent input?
-Rich
It would be a shame if a quality premium product such as Astro-Physics couldn't exist beyond the working lifetime of it's founder and owner. We still have Rolex's and Leicas. There must be enormous value in the AP brand, I can't believe it has a finite foreseable future.
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jmiele
Patron Saint?
Reged: 12/04/10
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: WarrenS]
#4926148 - 11/20/11 01:23 PM
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Yes, however, I think more Rolex's were sold before the owner retired. 
This is a small market. Joe
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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/31/10
Loc: massachusetts
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: Starhawk]
#4926172 - 11/20/11 01:33 PM
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I thought I had a 3 year wait when I went on that list; it ended up being 9 years and 15 days. Roland has said he will keep the 130s in production as long as he can, but there are limits, both technical and human.
How many people are on the list? And how long does it take to complete a scope from start to finish? I cant imagine the demand being so large, and production being so tedious that it takes the 9+ years to fill your order. I cant wrap my head around it. I mean they have a large production facility right? And the employees show up for work everyday?
I dont mean to sound flippant or anything, Im just completely uneducated when it comes to the production of world class refractors.
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orlyandico
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/10/09
Loc: Singapore
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: idealistic]
#4926190 - 11/20/11 01:43 PM
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I "heard" that Roland hand-finishes every AP lens. This limits how fast they can turn them out. The mechanicals are obviously not a problem, AP has made a big business out of their mounts.
What I don't get is this - is "hand figuring" that important? at the risk of brickbats, I don't think an AP130GT is head-and-shoulders above say a Tak TOA130, most reviews are that they are almost indistinguishable.
And Tak _outsources_ their lens production to.. horror of horrors, Canon, the world's biggest churner of mass production lenses.
So the "hand-figured AP lenses" that cause the decade-long waits seems more of a business decision than something chosen on its technical merits.
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
Reged: 11/17/05
Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: orlyandico]
#4926301 - 11/20/11 02:48 PM
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I "heard" that Roland hand-finishes every AP lens. This limits how fast they can turn them out. The mechanicals are obviously not a problem, AP has made a big business out of their mounts.
What I don't get is this - is "hand figuring" that important? at the risk of brickbats, I don't think an AP130GT is head-and-shoulders above say a Tak TOA130, most reviews are that they are almost indistinguishable.
And Tak _outsources_ their lens production to.. horror of horrors, Canon, the world's biggest churner of mass production lenses.
So the "hand-figured AP lenses" that cause the decade-long waits seems more of a business decision than something chosen on its technical merits.
I have a friend who owns a professional optical shop who makes lenses for big high tech industry and govt projects. His machines are expensive but they produce lenses that are *perfect*..at higher standards then amateur astronomers are requiring. and he makes hundreds of lenses..so I think it is possible..even acceptable.
If a CNC mill can be trusted to produce a 3D part at the highest tolerances...why not a piece of glass.
Rob
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silverking
member
Reged: 03/11/08
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: orlyandico]
#4926306 - 11/20/11 02:50 PM
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I think it may be somewhat of a stretch to presume that Roland hand figures lenses 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week.
It may take him a week to do one lens set....working a few hours each day.
He has a company to run as well, and may in fact not work such that he's too concerned that "everybody" get their AP scope before he retires (and he's past typical retirement age).
He's said many times that there are lots of choices out there now, unlike when he began AP, and the Apo choices were scarce (or non-existent).
I also think the big difference between Takahashi TOA and AP is that AP scopes are American Made.........and that means a lot to some folks..........but you're right in that if you're "just" after the perfect optics, you probably don't need to fret over the fact that it's "only" AP you can buy them from........in fact you can buy them now (as Roland has said) in quite a few places.
That Roland works each lens set shouldn't be underestimated in terms of "why" AP over all other Apo scope choices.
He's a legend in the field, something you have to have customers and industry types bestow upon you.........you can't "advertise" your way to legendary status.
As for why AP continues to depend on Roland hand-finishing every lens.......I'd say that when you build a companies reputation on the simple truth that every scope is perfect, figured and tested by the owner of the company (and one of the finest optical engineers on earth), you probably want to go out on that same note.
There's no reason to expect that AP won't continue to manufacture after Roland retires, but there's no guarantee that that manufacturing will include optics.
If you've followed the AP wait lists for the past decade, you'll already know that scope output has diminished every year, while mount and accessory output has increased.
Regardless of what happens, once Roland retires there will be no more hand-figured optics as a result of his working on them........and those scopes that have the provenance of having a "Roland Christian" lens set will be most definitely finite, highly desirable, and extremely expensive.
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
Reged: 11/17/05
Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: Illinois]
#4926330 - 11/20/11 03:01 PM
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I agreed about boat! 35,000 dollars for one telescope is not for me! My 4 telescopes total is about $4,400!
When done right you can get a load of scope for little. I built my 10"f/15 for less then $3000.... 
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Illinois
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/06
Loc: near Chicago, Illinois USA
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Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real?
[Re: rwiederrich]
#4926553 - 11/20/11 05:40 PM
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I agreed about boat! 35,000 dollars for one telescope is not for me! My 4 telescopes total is about $4,400!
When done right you can get a load of scope for little. I built my 10"f/15 for less then $3000....
WOW! Thats great!
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