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Equipment Discussions >> Refractors

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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
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Reged: 11/17/05

Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: Illinois]
      #4926600 - 11/20/11 06:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I agreed about boat! 35,000 dollars for one telescope is not for me! My 4 telescopes total is about $4,400!




When done right you can get a load of scope for little. I built my 10"f/15 for less then $3000....




WOW! Thats great!




It can be done with a tenacious desire..there is a 14"f/14.5 Brandt objective for sale on AM...with that objective a nice scope could be built for probably less then another $1500..if one is resourceful and machines all the work themselves. That big baby could be made for around $7100(to include the objective for sale).

Rob


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clintwhitman
Caveman
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Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #4926805 - 11/20/11 07:57 PM Attachment (68 downloads)

Rob, Build it over the top..

OTA 15" Dia. 17 foot long monster. plus at least a 24" Dew shield. A mount for it would be impressive, Might as well plan on a AP 3600 with a few extra SS weights for $35K to get started. Or a nice Byers series III. $55k.. Used!! The pier I would guess you would want 12 to 14 feet tall to the base and that's if you off set the weight of the objective with a 45 pound tail piece and focuser, This is so you could slide the OTA 2/3rds of the way up in the cradle. Here is the 30 pound tail piece I designed and 4" AP focuser on the Pearl (there went you budget). The Combo weighs the same as the 9" triplet. This was the smartest thing I did when designing it.

Well if you built the 14" you would really have a heck of a big telescope... Maybe a folded design would be the way to go?

Edited by clintwhitman (11/20/11 08:28 PM)


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TG
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/02/06

Loc: Latitude 47
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: orlyandico]
      #4927131 - 11/21/11 12:11 AM

Quote:

I "heard" that Roland hand-finishes every AP lens. This limits how fast they can turn them out. The mechanicals are obviously not a problem, AP has made a big business out of their mounts.

What I don't get is this - is "hand figuring" that important? at the risk of brickbats, I don't think an AP130GT is head-and-shoulders above say a Tak TOA130, most reviews are that they are almost indistinguishable.

And Tak _outsources_ their lens production to.. horror of horrors, Canon, the world's biggest churner of mass production lenses.

So the "hand-figured AP lenses" that cause the decade-long waits seems more of a business decision than something chosen on its technical merits.




You can hear all about Roland and his art from the Man himself:

http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/roland/index.html

From what he says, and what's been reported from independent testing, A-P lenses of recent vintage test at 1/10 wave lambda (and I remember reading a test report measuring 1/70 wave RMS). That's as close to perfect as you can get. In one of the essays, you can read Roland saying that figuring each lens takes him anywhere from 2 hours to a day. Note that the lenses are not ground by hand - grinding and polishing happens by machine and only the final figuring is done by the Master himself.

Canon may make Tak lenses but I would bet that they're of quality at least equal to the many times more expensive L-series lenses and I would also bet there's some hand-figuring involved. There seems to be too much variability in the process and materials to think that pure machine grinding and polishing will result in lenses that perform to 1/10 wave. But I could be totally wrong and it'd be great to get some info on Canon's lens making for Taks.

Regards,

Tanveer


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Paul G
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Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: orlyandico]
      #4927282 - 11/21/11 06:33 AM

Quote:

I "heard" that Roland hand-finishes every AP lens. This limits how fast they can turn them out. The mechanicals are obviously not a problem, AP has made a big business out of their mounts.

What I don't get is this - is "hand figuring" that important? at the risk of brickbats, I don't think an AP130GT is head-and-shoulders above say a Tak TOA130, most reviews are that they are almost indistinguishable.

And Tak _outsources_ their lens production to.. horror of horrors, Canon, the world's biggest churner of mass production lenses.

So the "hand-figured AP lenses" that cause the decade-long waits seems more of a business decision than something chosen on its technical merits.




Tak's guarantee is diffraction limited, or 80% Strehl. Roland guarantees a minimum Strehl of 98.4%, and he finishes each lens element and objective himself until it meets that minimum. Visually nobody would see the difference between a Strehl of 95% and 99%, but an imager who aggressively stretches the image will see a difference in star bloat. When optics are outsourced, there is a bell curve of quality within the specs requested from the manufacturer, some will be better than others. Figuring the glass in house allows each objective to be worked until it meets a very high standard. Different business model, one tailored to higher volumes.

There is a plethora of entirely machine made scopes on the market now. For those who want a scope from the hands of a legendary master optician there are few options. Roland knows he could make optics for the military and make a lot more money, move the decimal point over at least one place for what he makes, but his stated goal was to make the best optics possible at a fair price for amateurs, particularly for astrophotography, and in doing so he changed the landscape of our hobby. A 6" triplet from Tak is no longer way north of $20K as a result of Roland's scopes and, later, APM TMB scopes in larger numbers.

Master craftsman vs machine made in volumes isn't seen just in amateur astronomy, there are many other examples. Musical instruments from the hand of a master command much higher prices and have long waiting lists even though there are many excellent machine made instruments available.


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CounterWeight
Postmaster
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Palo alto, CA.
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: WarrenS]
      #4927307 - 11/21/11 07:16 AM

Not a deal for me... I'd take same $ and get a TEC180FL (also hand figured), an A-P mount, and maybe look for a deal on an AP 130 for the smaller scope to piggyback? But to each their own, I can only daydream about either option.

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Ziggy943
Post Laureate


Reged: 08/11/06

Loc: Utah
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #4927760 - 11/21/11 12:39 PM

Let me throw up just a word of caution. Brandt didn't make many large lenses. In fact he made only a few. I know of only one 14" made for a California dentist, or at least it passed through his hands at some point, who also happened to be a Clark collector. He did not think the 14" lens was up to specs. Whomever buys it need to stipulate that it meets their expectations.

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hfjacinto
I think he's got it!
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Reged: 01/12/09

Loc: Land of clouds and LP
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: Ziggy943]
      #4927780 - 11/21/11 12:51 PM

Several very good points (and I love looking at the Pearl, its just a beautiful scope), but there is one point that I disagree with and that is, that the $35,000 will appreciate over time. Like any investment, there is a chance that it will increase and another that it will decrease in value. Considering that most people will use this scope, there is a chance it can get damaged and lose value, or that people just don't want a 7" refractor. As to whether it is worth it, if it sells than its worth it, if it doesn't than it didn't find a buyer.

For me, there are other scopes that I would buy if the wife let me spend $35k.


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Nimbus42
member


Reged: 11/11/11

Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: Ziggy943]
      #4927788 - 11/21/11 12:54 PM

Zeiss APQs have the same status.
They were very expensive when new, and prices when they are sold are up into the statosphere.

Then again, the master optician took each and every lensset, and when they did not meet the strict specification an ice-pick was used to smash the set so it could not leave the factory.


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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
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Reged: 11/17/05

Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: Ziggy943]
      #4928275 - 11/21/11 05:48 PM

Quote:

Let me throw up just a word of caution. Brandt didn't make many large lenses. In fact he made only a few. I know of only one 14" made for a California dentist, or at least it passed through his hands at some point, who also happened to be a Clark collector. He did not think the 14" lens was up to specs. Whomever buys it need to stipulate that it meets their expectations.




It could be refigured....shoot the glass blanks alone are worth more then the finished objective....not to mention it is in a machined Byers cell non the less.

It should definately get a trip to Berry at D&G just to see its figure.

Rob


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SomeDoSomeDont
super member


Reged: 01/17/10

Loc: deathRay, Michigan
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #4928528 - 11/21/11 08:26 PM

AP180 f/7 Starfire EDF may be pricey but for visual use AP also made a bunch of 178mm f/9 Starfires. Don't know how many but I'll bet they don't cost any where near $35K.
Visually darn close to the 180 EDF.


Andy


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hfjacinto
I think he's got it!
*****

Reged: 01/12/09

Loc: Land of clouds and LP
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: SomeDoSomeDont]
      #4928662 - 11/21/11 10:01 PM

Quote:

AP180 f/7 Starfire EDF may be pricey but for visual use AP also made a bunch of 178mm f/9 Starfires. Don't know how many but I'll bet they don't cost any where near $35K.
Visually darn close to the 180 EDF.
:refractor

Andy




Our club has the 178 MM Astro Physics, and while its a nice scope, there is some color that is noticeable on bright objects. Not bad but not as good as the 150 and 130 mm AP scopes that I looked through.


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ngc2289
Post Laureate
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Reged: 04/13/05

Loc: Corpus Christi, TX.
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: Illinois]
      #4928880 - 11/22/11 01:09 AM

Illinois a few years back Marcus of APM was selling a 21 inch refractor, and I think he was asking $225,000. I think the price was for the lens the ota was extra!

Edited by ngc2289 (11/22/11 01:16 AM)


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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
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Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: ngc2289]
      #4929020 - 11/22/11 06:01 AM

the 21 inch project for US customers was never made, they could not get the funds. This 21" was redesigned by Massimo Riccardi in a way that it could be practicle made and by using the glas melt datas. It should be completed, lens in cell, in spring 2012 and going to Italy to a rich person who will build his own tube and mount and enter it into a privat observatory , but for public viewing.
He is located near Rome in Italy

so we hope he will build everything fast and we can see the completed scope sometimes in 2012 , if so,I will post some pictures here


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Illinois
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/18/06

Loc: near Dixon, Illinois USA
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #4929597 - 11/22/11 02:02 PM

225,000 dollars! Need big mount and observatory total probably half millions dollars! What if light pollution coming soon then diffcult to move a giant scope to new loaction! Look at world largest refractor 40 inch stuck in Wisconsin close to Milwaukee and Chicago!

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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
*****

Reged: 11/17/05

Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: Illinois]
      #4929951 - 11/22/11 05:24 PM

Quote:

225,000 dollars! Need big mount and observatory total probably half millions dollars! What if light pollution coming soon then diffcult to move a giant scope to new loaction! Look at world largest refractor 40 inch stuck in Wisconsin close to Milwaukee and Chicago!




Yeah...that's a chunk of change.

A 21" triplet needs good seeing and good cool down to opimized. Money can buy anything..however it rarely can buy good sence.

I wouldnt' want to play with any more then 15"s at my location due to the high level of water in the atmosphere.

I'm glad Markus sold that 21" monster

I'm happy with my 10".

Rob


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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
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Reged: 11/17/05

Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #4929987 - 11/22/11 06:02 PM

Quote:

Rob, Build it over the top..

OTA 15" Dia. 17 foot long monster. plus at least a 24" Dew shield. A mount for it would be impressive, Might as well plan on a AP 3600 with a few extra SS weights for $35K to get started. Or a nice Byers series III. $55k.. Used!! The pier I would guess you would want 12 to 14 feet tall to the base and that's if you off set the weight of the objective with a 45 pound tail piece and focuser, This is so you could slide the OTA 2/3rds of the way up in the cradle. Here is the 30 pound tail piece I designed and 4" AP focuser on the Pearl (there went you budget). The Combo weighs the same as the 9" triplet. This was the smartest thing I did when designing it.

Well if you built the 14" you would really have a heck of a big telescope... Maybe a folded design would be the way to go?




IMV, bulding *Over the top* doesn't need to include a 35K~55K mount. I can easily build one for far less and have it perform just as well. My 4" and electric focusers are as good as the AP ones..and my electric focuser is better(IMV). I nearly sold RC on the design of the electric focuser on my 6"f/15. He tooled his shop for his new focuser just before. OH well.

Still a 14"f/14.5 would be fun to build and mount. Possibly with a 3 tear step down tube...

Rob


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SomeDoSomeDont
super member


Reged: 01/17/10

Loc: deathRay, Michigan
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #4930029 - 11/22/11 06:32 PM

]

Our club has the 178 MM Astro Physics, and while its a nice scope, there is some color that is noticeable on bright objects. Not bad but not as good as the 150 and 130 mm AP scopes that I looked through.




Lemme know when your club wants to scrap that old AP178 beater with the colors around the bright objects.

Andy


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hfjacinto
I think he's got it!
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Reged: 01/12/09

Loc: Land of clouds and LP
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: SomeDoSomeDont]
      #4930172 - 11/22/11 07:50 PM

I told them to sell it but they like having an astrophysics, its on a Mathis mount, we also have a 16" MEADE, but thats not yet mounted.

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Napersky
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 01/27/10

Loc: Chicagoland
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #5610828 - 01/07/13 08:01 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

Quote:

Hi Mark

the Zeiss 110 I offer is a antique Instruments from around 1915 with a history, 60 years work at the University of Amsterdam and a 2 years full restauration.

the details in this scope with mount poer and accessories you cannot describe, but any company today who would be able to make excactly this things again, would charge you far over $ 100,000 for shure





Hey Marcus,

My 1920s Zeiss 110mm scope on my just arrived today Losmandy Mount. Unfortunately I don't have the original Zeiss mount perhaps someday I can get photos from you to build a replica!


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Napersky
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 01/27/10

Loc: Chicagoland
Re: Is this $35,000 7"refractor deal for real? [Re: Napersky]
      #5610832 - 01/07/13 08:03 PM Attachment (29 downloads)

pic 2

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