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Equipment Discussions >> Refractors

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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5324318 - 07/18/12 11:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




I would think it is because you didn't really wait. It isn't like an investment. You paid no money, no deposit, did nothing, nada, other than say at some point 20 or so years ago "Hey that sounds nice, let me know if you make one."

I personally don't know why that ancient dusty list still exists. In my opinion, it is a joke with worthless notification lists going back 10, 15, 20 years.




In my case, I didn't carelessly put my name on the notification lists. I had specific plans for each instrument, and purchased them when I was told I had the chance (I still have the OTAs). I believe the lists are the fairest way to distribute a relatively scarce commodity, and it's up to AP how it conducts business.


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/31/10

Loc: massachusetts
Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5324326 - 07/19/12 12:03 AM

The only reason I can think of is (like you said, more than once) he wants people to enjoy the scope. Someone who jumps in and pays double the price is more likely to store the scope in a temp controlled closet. And someone who flips it has perhaps lost interest in Astronomy and is only interested in money. Maybe. And yes, I find it a bit distasteful as well, but not immoral. But its not like his request is a legal binding document. I was just curious.

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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5324349 - 07/19/12 12:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




Who knows? However, I respect AP's desire to not see their rare scopes immediately flipped for a profit. Had I lost interest in the OTAs I originally wanted, I'd have passed up my spots on the notification list when contacted by AP.


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/31/10

Loc: massachusetts
Re: AP 175 new [Re: JJK]
      #5324361 - 07/19/12 12:48 AM

If you had the money, why though? Thats what Im asking.

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Paul G
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5324534 - 07/19/12 07:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Because perhaps he feels that as these are the last big scopes he will make, he wants to ensure they are going to folks that waited and now will enjoy them. Not exploit them to make money. He could just as easily have asked the market value they are worth and had people pay 35-40k for them new. He didn't even if it is his ability and attention to detail that warrants the high hight. Maybe it's because he cares about his work and wants it to be affordable so people can enjoy it. Maybe because he feels if he isn't going to exploit his talent you shouldn't.

IDK, it is your money........Joe



Well he should obviously let the people who waited have the first chance at them. And yes, he could have charged more, not that 19.8k is "affordabe", Im sure hes gearing up for retirement and making more GP than ever on this run. Once he sets the price, a customer cant be accused of "exploiting" his talent, especially if hes waited patienly for 20 years then pony'd up 20 grand for a scope that cost less than 6 when he signed up for it. You seem like a free market guy, Im still confused as to why he cares. Hes done his part, produced and distributed his labor of love. What happens next shoudnt concern him.




I guess you're not idealistic.

Roland sells his scopes below market value so more amateurs have access to fine equipment. If he didn't care about those who buy his scopes he would have priced the 175 at $35-40K and still sold them all. It has nothing to do with the 175, AP has always looked askance at people who get on the list just to flip the scope for profit; it allows someone to buy their way over others who have been on the list for a long time. There were long discussions about it on s.a.a. One thing is for sure, if AP finds someone bought a scope with the intention of flipping (SN, etc.) the flipper goes on quite a different list.


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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5324706 - 07/19/12 10:05 AM

I have a pretty good idea of how many Stowaways were made, especially F5's; Don't know anything about the 175's - even if there aren't many they will probably get through more of the list then one would think initially - deaths, illnesses, old age, loss of interest, and cost will eliminate or dissuade many.
By the way does any one know how many 160's are out there? - I have only come across 1 other in person


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Scott99
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: New England
Re: AP 175 new [Re: JJK]
      #5324779 - 07/19/12 10:50 AM

>>>>Make that five folks getting the AP175.

Nice!!!! Also, in terms of Roland Christen, I suspect he's not planning for his retirement, remember, this IS his retirement. He's written before that a successful career in the high-end optics biz is what enabled him to "retire" early and start his own company.

It sounds like he really likes to see people using his current apos for imaging. This scope is presented as an astrograph and includes the flattener as standard equipment, I think he's hoping that active imagers will take them and use them.

The old list is probably a good method for this run because in the mid-90's there weren't many "collectors" of AP scopes, things seem to have taken off around 1999. Now you have some folks collecting multiple copies of the same AP scope just for the heck of it.

I never realized just how big the "collecting" thing is. Just watch a few episodes of "American Pickers", a lot of the people seem totally crazy to me.


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/31/10

Loc: massachusetts
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5324849 - 07/19/12 11:26 AM

I was doing more of a devils advocate sort of thing. I agree with the idea in principle.

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jmiele
Patron Saint?
*****

Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5324899 - 07/19/12 11:49 AM

Quote:

I have a pretty good idea of how many Stowaways were made, especially F5's; Don't know anything about the 175's - even if there aren't many they will probably get through more of the list then one would think initially - deaths, illnesses, old age, loss of interest, and cost will eliminate or dissuade many.
By the way does any one know how many 160's are out there? - I have only come across 1 other in person




I spoke to a friend out West and we compared shipping dates and serials. We had 98 and 99. That was during the last quarter of production. We have yet to find a three digit 160 AP serial. So, maybe 100 and 1 didn't make the cut? Or someone has #100..

Joe


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coz
sage


Reged: 08/25/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5324925 - 07/19/12 12:06 PM

a bit off topic but related sort of. Patek Philippe(Watch co) issues special pieces occasionaly that are even more rare than usual. They then require an application from the customer in order to get approved to buy them! We're talking well into the 6 figures here. Some of the questions include if you collect other things etc they're trying to determine if you're a flipper. I was told that they only do this in the USA? I guess Americans are greedy! Oh well maybe Roland should adopt this just kidding.

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PhilCo126
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/14/05

Loc: coastline of Belgium
Re: AP 175 new [Re: coz]
      #5324991 - 07/19/12 12:45 PM

TEC 180s might be planned but how long will the waiting lists be? Looks like TEC cannot follow the demand...

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jmiele
Patron Saint?
*****

Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: PhilCo126]
      #5325159 - 07/19/12 02:26 PM

I thought he got one to everyone that wanted one last round? No?
Joe


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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5325336 - 07/19/12 03:58 PM

AP Scopes are best USED, not collected.

The talk of AP scopes as an investment is WAY overrated - for the most part they hold up to inflation, more or less - don't get me wrong that's a great side bonus for any item you use and enjoy.
But there are lots of better places to invest than in heavy fragile items one handles in the dark!

Edited by Malabargold (07/19/12 04:04 PM)


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5325443 - 07/19/12 05:08 PM

There's a guy out here who has ~40 AP scopes. He's collected them and has them in storage as an investment.

People DO collect them.

If only it were easier for me to ditch some of my other scopes. That's turned out to be a problem since they really give very little back when sold compared to having the scope to set up and use.

-Rich


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 175 new [Re: JJK]
      #5325975 - 07/19/12 10:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




I would think it is because you didn't really wait. It isn't like an investment. You paid no money, no deposit, did nothing, nada, other than say at some point 20 or so years ago "Hey that sounds nice, let me know if you make one."

I personally don't know why that ancient dusty list still exists. In my opinion, it is a joke with worthless notification lists going back 10, 15, 20 years.




In my case, I didn't carelessly put my name on the notification lists. I had specific plans for each instrument, and purchased them when I was told I had the chance (I still have the OTAs). I believe the lists are the fairest way to distribute a relatively scarce commodity, and it's up to AP how it conducts business.




Yes, some people pass up on scopes they do not require, others, likely the vast majority, do not. What is sad about this scenario is that while Roland professes to put out instruments into amateurs hands at a reasonable price for a super-premium optic, the notification lists fail miserably at allowing anyone prior to signing up 15 plus years ago access to any of these items. Why are we who signed up, so many years back so blessed? Were production keeping up with interest in even a remote manner, this would be different, but it patently is not. At this point, such interest lists are a farce and I know of many people whom discuss it disparagingly. While Astro-Physics can and will do as it pleases, and has the complete right to operate as it pleases, I personally feel such adherence to these lists actually hurts their image at this point. That is my personal opinion and I personally don't care one way or another as I have absolutely no vested interest, but I am being an advocate for those whom have entered the amateur astronomy field within the past 20 years, hear about and possibly even see such telescopes at star parties, but whom have absolutely no hope of ever being able to purchase one. Just my possibly skewed point of view, but I retain my right to speak it.


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/31/10

Loc: massachusetts
Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5325983 - 07/19/12 10:47 PM

Theyre on Astromart quite regularly. However, the price will include the fee to go back in time and sign up on the list.

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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott99]
      #5325988 - 07/19/12 10:51 PM

Yeah, I know of a telescope collector in AZ who has patiently acquired four AP 10" Mak-Cass'es since 2001. He stores them away for investment. I don't understand why he is doing this, some sort of obsession with owning more samples of the same OTA.

Quote:

>>>>Make that five folks getting the AP175.

Nice!!!! Also, in terms of Roland Christen, I suspect he's not planning for this retirement, remember, this IS his retirement. He's written before that a successful career in the high-end optics biz is what enabled him to "retire" early and start his own company.

It sounds like he really likes to see people using his current apos for imaging. This scope is presented as an astrograph and includes the flattener as standard equipment, I think he's hoping that active imagers will take them and use them.

The old list is probably a good method for this run because in the mid-90's there weren't many "collectors" of AP scopes, things seem to have taken off around 1999. Now you have some folks collecting multiple copies of the same AP scope just for the heck of it.

I never realized just how big the "collecting" thing is. Just watch a few episodes of "American Pickers", a lot of the people seem totally crazy to me.





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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5326114 - 07/20/12 12:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




I would think it is because you didn't really wait. It isn't like an investment. You paid no money, no deposit, did nothing, nada, other than say at some point 20 or so years ago "Hey that sounds nice, let me know if you make one."

I personally don't know why that ancient dusty list still exists. In my opinion, it is a joke with worthless notification lists going back 10, 15, 20 years.




In my case, I didn't carelessly put my name on the notification lists. I had specific plans for each instrument, and purchased them when I was told I had the chance (I still have the OTAs). I believe the lists are the fairest way to distribute a relatively scarce commodity, and it's up to AP how it conducts business.




Yes, some people pass up on scopes they do not require, others, likely the vast majority, do not. What is sad about this scenario is that while Roland professes to put out instruments into amateurs hands at a reasonable price for a super-premium optic, the notification lists fail miserably at allowing anyone prior to signing up 15 plus years ago access to any of these items. Why are we who signed up, so many years back so blessed? Were production keeping up with interest in even a remote manner, this would be different, but it patently is not. At this point, such interest lists are a farce and I know of many people whom discuss it disparagingly. While Astro-Physics can and will do as it pleases, and has the complete right to operate as it pleases, I personally feel such adherence to these lists actually hurts their image at this point. That is my personal opinion and I personally don't care one way or another as I have absolutely no vested interest, but I am being an advocate for those whom have entered the amateur astronomy field within the past 20 years, hear about and possibly even see such telescopes at star parties, but whom have absolutely no hope of ever being able to purchase one. Just my possibly skewed point of view, but I retain my right to speak it.




I don't see how the notification lists hurt AP's image. AP is a small business, and as such, it can operate however it pleases, subject to limits imposed by state and Federal laws, and my needs.

I also don't see how the lists are unfair or worthless. I've been waiting over 16 years for AP to make a scope like this (that I can purchase), and I let AP know that back then. I would have purchased a 180 f/7 EDF and/or a 205 f/8 from them long ago had they not stopped production. I've also traveled far and wide to test AP products. Would a lottery that circumvents my long and clear interest in a mid-size apo astrograph be fairer? Not from my perspective.


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Paul G
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5326379 - 07/20/12 06:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




I would think it is because you didn't really wait. It isn't like an investment. You paid no money, no deposit, did nothing, nada, other than say at some point 20 or so years ago "Hey that sounds nice, let me know if you make one."

I personally don't know why that ancient dusty list still exists. In my opinion, it is a joke with worthless notification lists going back 10, 15, 20 years.




In my case, I didn't carelessly put my name on the notification lists. I had specific plans for each instrument, and purchased them when I was told I had the chance (I still have the OTAs). I believe the lists are the fairest way to distribute a relatively scarce commodity, and it's up to AP how it conducts business.




Yes, some people pass up on scopes they do not require, others, likely the vast majority, do not. What is sad about this scenario is that while Roland professes to put out instruments into amateurs hands at a reasonable price for a super-premium optic, the notification lists fail miserably at allowing anyone prior to signing up 15 plus years ago access to any of these items. Why are we who signed up, so many years back so blessed? Were production keeping up with interest in even a remote manner, this would be different, but it patently is not. At this point, such interest lists are a farce and I know of many people whom discuss it disparagingly. While Astro-Physics can and will do as it pleases, and has the complete right to operate as it pleases, I personally feel such adherence to these lists actually hurts their image at this point. That is my personal opinion and I personally don't care one way or another as I have absolutely no vested interest, but I am being an advocate for those whom have entered the amateur astronomy field within the past 20 years, hear about and possibly even see such telescopes at star parties, but whom have absolutely no hope of ever being able to purchase one. Just my possibly skewed point of view, but I retain my right to speak it.




That fact that their lists persist suggests AP's reputation isn't harmed at all by allocating scarce products to those who expressed interest first. High end products from the hands of a master craftsman in other fields have long waiting lists as well. Musical instruments are but one example. Some have longer waiting lists than AP. That some people weren't old enough, interested enough, or prescient enough to get on the list at an appropriate time is really their problem, not the manufacturer's. They can always buy it used and pay the premium for getting it now.

AP has tried other avenues, they drew names from a hat for the f5 Stowaways but that generated even more angst. First come first served is a long standing method of distributing scarce items.

How would you propose to do it?


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: AP 175 [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5326396 - 07/20/12 06:47 AM

Quote:

What is sad about this scenario is that while Roland professes to put out instruments into amateurs hands at a reasonable price for a super-premium optic, the notification lists fail miserably at allowing anyone prior to signing up 15 plus years ago access to any of these items.




Personally I admire Roland for choosing a different business model. He could just charge what the market will bear but he has chosen this model.

When Roland began, there really were no other affordable competitors. Today, there are quite a few who have followed his lead and produce high quality, affordable optics. This is where Roland has taken the community... It is worth remembering that Thomas Back who was instrumental in bringing other affordable, high quality apochromats to the market, was an observer who was a friend of Rolands who was inspired by Roland and essentially followed the Astro-Physics model in his designs.

I suggest that the availability of the affordable apo triplets is a legacy of Astro-Physics and their business model and whether you end up with a TEC, an A-P or other top notch triplet, the mere existence can be traced to Roland's efforts to make them affordable.

Jon


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