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Equipment Discussions >> Refractors

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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

AP 175
      #5320938 - 07/16/12 07:35 PM

Has anyone taken delivery yet?

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jmiele
Patron Saint?
*****

Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5320940 - 07/16/12 07:36 PM

I believe the first to come out are end July early August.

Joe


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Paul G
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5321014 - 07/16/12 08:32 PM

The offer letter from AP says the first will ship in July and they will continue to ship throughout the year. They are offering the scope to the 180 f7 and 180 f9 interest list first, this list dates from 1995-2001.

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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5321028 - 07/16/12 08:43 PM


I have one on the way. Can't remember, but I think I signed up in late 1995!


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Paul Hyndman
sage


Reged: 07/13/04

Loc: Connecticut Shoreline USA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5321150 - 07/16/12 10:46 PM

Current ETA on mine is end of August to early September... but who's counting?!?

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Scott in NCAdministrator
80mm Refractor Fanatic
*****

Reged: 03/05/05

Loc: NC
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5321177 - 07/16/12 11:10 PM

Quote:


I have one on the way. Can't remember, but I think I signed up in late 1995!




Now that's a long wait! You must have the patience of Job. Congrats, and also welcome to CN!


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
*****

Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott in NC]
      #5321182 - 07/16/12 11:14 PM

Couple a show offs. Luck devils! We'll have to experience the AP175 vicariously through you. Welcome and keep us posted.

Joe


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ken svp120
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/19/04

Loc: Ohio
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5321677 - 07/17/12 10:21 AM

Quote:

The offer letter from AP says the first will ship in July and they will continue to ship throughout the year. They are offering the scope to the 180 f7 and 180 f9 interest list first, this list dates from 1995-2001.




The wait time for these never ceases to amaze me. When folks are willing to wait a decade for your product, you know you've got a good thing going!


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
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Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: ken svp120]
      #5321730 - 07/17/12 10:49 AM

Almost two decades for this one.

Joe


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Scott99
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: New England
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5321817 - 07/17/12 11:39 AM

Quote:


I have one on the way. Can't remember, but I think I signed up in late 1995!




Congratulations guys!


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junomike
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/07/09

Loc: Ontario
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5321858 - 07/17/12 12:10 PM

Question? Do people (like yourself) update their personal information to Televue and If so how?
I don't see ever wanting to get on a 20yr list, but I'm sure If I did, I probably wouldn't have the same contact Info as I do know. Heck, back in '95, those that did have the Internet had "dial up". I'm sure people's emails have changed over the years and with the influx of Cell phones, a lot of "land lines" are becoming obsolete as well.
Just Curious?

Mike


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Paul G
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: AP 175 new [Re: junomike]
      #5321902 - 07/17/12 12:36 PM

Quote:

Question? Do people (like yourself) update their personal information to Televue and If so how?
I don't see ever wanting to get on a 20yr list, but I'm sure If I did, I probably wouldn't have the same contact Info as I do know. Heck, back in '95, those that did have the Internet had "dial up". I'm sure people's emails have changed over the years and with the influx of Cell phones, a lot of "land lines" are becoming obsolete as well.
Just Curious?

Mike




AP recommends people on an interest list keep AP abreast of any mailing, phone, or e-mail address changes. I received an e-mail at each of two e-mail addresses and a letter via snail mail.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5322240 - 07/17/12 04:23 PM

The only lists you can get on at the moment are for the AP130 EDFGT and the Riccardi Honders astrograph.

No general interest list is around.

From what i understand, the genesis of the AP 175 is Marj pointed out this set of blanks they had and suggested it was time for them to become something.

To my knowledge, no list has ever been retired (e.g. officially told "We will never do this"). However, the Traveller list is apparently pretty close to that- Roland has previously told me he doesn't see 4" refractors in his future. I think he is operating on a model of diversity available to the interested observer than markets. So, the AP130EDFGT came from a lack of what diameters and F/#s are around in something really portable.

Ultimately this is based more on what interests Roland than anything else. And come to think of it, that's what he said about other Opticians- they have what they are interested, they work alone, and maybe they would be interested in what he does, or not. So, what this really boils down to isn't waiting for a product. These really aren't built like products in the commercial sense. It's a series of 1-off items, and the lists are just who asked, first.

But I'd dearly love to get a good look through an AP175.

-Rich


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APtelephoto
super member


Reged: 04/17/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: ken svp120]
      #5322440 - 07/17/12 06:32 PM

The wait time for these never ceases to amaze me. When folks are willing to wait a decade for your product, you know you've got a good thing going!




Waited just under a "decade" for my "130" (130EDFGT!).

AP products stand out from the others in the field for many reasons including quality, value, service, and support! Few things in life are worth this wait. AP scopes are worth that wait to many proud owner/users.

Congrats to those in line to receive the new 175!


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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5322626 - 07/17/12 08:38 PM

I have one coming by the end of July! The offer was totally by surprise as I had given up on any hope of being offered a 170-180 size scope from AP. Back in 1995, I had my name put back on the 180EDT list after I declined an initial offer by AP... it was one of my biggest mistakes not taking a new 180EDT back then. I didn't know there even was a 180EDT list anymore. In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit. It also states that this size scope will most likely not ever be made by AP in the future. This could be the last AP scope this size or larger. I'm getting myself in shape to lift this 43lb. baby onto my AP900/ATS transportable pier standing 54" high. It will be transported to dark (mag. 6.8) observing sites.

I know a fellow observer in my area with a 180EDT. It will be interesting to compare the performance between these two scopes.

Edited by Peter Natscher (07/17/12 08:40 PM)


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/31/10

Loc: massachusetts
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5322638 - 07/17/12 08:49 PM

Interesting for sure. When was his 180 made?

What are they charging for these?


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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5322761 - 07/17/12 10:12 PM

He took delivery of his 180EDT around 1996 or 1997 IIRC. It was one of the last ones made. It was the pride of our 50-person observing group. He rarely takes it out anymore...now observes mostly with his 155EDF, a more manageable scope.

The 175EDF? $19.8K. I noticed Roland up'ed the price of the 175EDF $1k one month after initial announcement. Back in 1995, the 180EDT cost $5,200. How times have changed.

I'm wondering how AP arrived at the 175's price of $19.8k? Did he use his usual manufacturing formula or is there an added premium to take away a fast reselling profit? I'm sure this scope would resell immediately at a 50% premium.

Quote:

Interesting for sure. When was his 180 made?

What are they charging for these?




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Hermie
sage
*****

Reged: 04/20/05

Loc: Cloudy HKG
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5322992 - 07/18/12 01:50 AM

Congratulations Guys!

Please grace us dreamers with some pics and reports when the scopes arrive. And I hope you feel a tiny bit guilty because I will have to wait a whole longer for my 130.

Honestly, each one of these that Roland gets out is a bonus for all of us.

Hermie


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coz
sage


Reged: 08/25/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Hermie]
      #5323128 - 07/18/12 06:39 AM

Congrats and enjoy!

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vahe
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 08/27/05

Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5323169 - 07/18/12 07:37 AM

Quote:

I'm wondering how AP arrived at the 175's price of $19.8k? Did he use his usual manufacturing formula or is there an added premium to take away a fast reselling profit? I'm sure this scope would resell immediately at a 50% premium.




A number of folks have criticized AP for offering their refractors far below the price of what they are really worth judging by what they sell on the used market, the $20K price tag for the AP175 is perhaps a positive move on the part of AP to correct the situation.

Vahe


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
*****

Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: vahe]
      #5323223 - 07/18/12 08:42 AM

Vahe, I'd agree if these scopes were going to be available as a production item. However, to my knowledge this is a "very" limited run and when the blank are gone, he's done with these. Someone correct me if the know different. That said, I still agree and very much respect that these interments are being made at all and are priced where they are.

At this point used AP180's can fetch between 25-30k. Even 26-27k bids are not meeting current reserve prices. I expect the first AP175 to be sold used will go for 35-40K. Perhaps higher in an auction. However, most of the folks on that list that are still into this hobby and are interested enough to come up with an unexpected 20k for something the ordered 18 years ago, are most likely NOT going to part with it for the time being. Which, is a good thing. I know of one, who said - "this is a lifetime scope, I waited a lifetime and that's how long I'm keeping it."

Best, Joe


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5323329 - 07/18/12 09:55 AM

Roland told me these were a one run and done- then back to making AP130s.

-Rich


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coz
sage


Reged: 08/25/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5323365 - 07/18/12 10:14 AM

I certainly don't know how he arrived at the price but a good comp is TEC's 180 and AP includes the FF. I do agree with Joe about where these will eventually trade!

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Paul G
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5323390 - 07/18/12 10:37 AM

Quote:

Roland told me these were a one run and done- then back to making AP130s.

-Rich




Any idea how many scopes?


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
*****

Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5323399 - 07/18/12 10:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Roland told me these were a one run and done- then back to making AP130s.

-Rich




Any idea how many scopes?




Yes, not enough.

Best, Joe


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JimP
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/03

Loc: South Carolina
Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5323421 - 07/18/12 11:01 AM

I don't know about the AP 180 F/7's but the AP 180 F/9 scopes are selling for under $20K.

JimP


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JimP
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/03

Loc: South Carolina
Re: AP 175 new [Re: JimP]
      #5323427 - 07/18/12 11:02 AM

Or, perhaps I should say I know where I can buy one for under $20K and when I sold mine I sold it for $18K.

JimP


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5323446 - 07/18/12 11:15 AM

Quote:

Vahe, I'd agree if these scopes were going to be available as a production item. However, to my knowledge this is a "very" limited run and when the blank are gone, he's done with these. Someone correct me if the know different. That said, I still agree and very much respect that these interments are being made at all and are priced where they are.

At this point used AP180's can fetch between 25-30k. Even 26-27k bids are not meeting current reserve prices. I expect the first AP175 to be sold used will go for 35-40K. Perhaps higher in an auction. However, most of the folks on that list that are still into this hobby and are interested enough to come up with an unexpected 20k for something the ordered 18 years ago, are most likely NOT going to part with it for the time being. Which, is a good thing. I know of one, who said - "this is a lifetime scope, I waited a lifetime and that's how long I'm keeping it."

Best, Joe




Hi Joe,

F9 180EDT's have historically gone for 16-20K and seem to have settled down at 18K for the very few which have traded hands in the last couple of years. The f7 180EDF with field flattener is much rarer, perhaps less than 15 made and only Roland knows for sure. These have historically gone for between 32-38K. They come up so very infrequently that it is hard to get a handle on current pricing but in the range of 30-34K seems close to the mark. As you say though, any Astro-Physics telescope, and especially the highly desirable collectible yet entirely useable telescopes like the prized f5 Stowaway, the ultra rare AP180EDF, the rare AP180EDT and 10" Mak-Cass, and now the AP175, an Astro-Physics telescope will likely always be a prized possession and worthy of being considered a life-time telescope. I know several people who have multiple Astro-Physics telescopes and they rarely consider parting with one them.

Edited by M13 Observer (07/18/12 11:22 AM)


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Scott99
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: New England
Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5323458 - 07/18/12 11:27 AM

There's probably a handful of people around the world that would bid up a 175mm to the sky, but how long would it last? TEC has announced another run of 180's, that is probably enough for vast majority of people. It's already f/7 for imaging and has a reasonably-priced flattener. I see that the 180 is quite a bit lighter as well, which is attractive to many buyers.

so we have 4 people on this thread getting 175's? very exciting! TEC has said there is strong demand for their 180's as well. These are amazing amateur telescopes! To me it's like seeing a famous artist cranking out more masterpieces. Even if I'll never have one, I might get to enjoy one at some point, just like seeing an art exhibit.

As far as AP 130's I think someone posted a photo of serial #300-and-something recently, I would assume they've made 300+


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Scott in NCAdministrator
80mm Refractor Fanatic
*****

Reged: 03/05/05

Loc: NC
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott99]
      #5323487 - 07/18/12 11:48 AM

Quote:


so we have 4 people on this thread getting 175's? very exciting! TEC has said there is strong demand for their 180's as well. These are amazing amateur telescopes! To me it's like seeing a famous artist cranking out more masterpieces. Even if I'll never have one, I might get to enjoy one at some point, just like seeing an art exhibit.




I agree! Too rich for my blood, but at least I can enjoy living vicariously through the experiences of some of these folks! Now, they do realize that they need to post their "first light" experiences, complete with pictures, don't they?


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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott in NC]
      #5323511 - 07/18/12 12:10 PM

The AP wait lists have been good to me. I have a last model run of every telescope since and including the Stowaways.
This will plug the gap nicely between the 160 and the 180 EDF


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Scott in NCAdministrator
80mm Refractor Fanatic
*****

Reged: 03/05/05

Loc: NC
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5323531 - 07/18/12 12:28 PM

Quote:

The AP wait lists have been good to me. I have a last model run of every telescope since and including the Stowaways.
This will plug the gap nicely between the 160 and the 180 EDF




There's a gap between your AP 160 and 180? Seriously? I'm just picking on you, but in all reality I'm very happy for you and your good fortune! I don't know if you've ever seen an AP175 in person before, but I saw one of these at NEAF in April, and it's quite a looker!


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PhilCo126
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/14/05

Loc: coastline of Belgium
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott in NC]
      #5323543 - 07/18/12 12:36 PM

I guess it sits in this price range?
http://www.apm-telescopes.net/de/Teleskope/Linsenteleskope-Optik/Tubus-/Apochromaten/Apo-175/1400-CNC-LW-II-608.html


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott99]
      #5324043 - 07/18/12 07:42 PM

Quote:


As far as AP 130's I think someone posted a photo of serial #300-and-something recently, I would assume they've made 300+




I figure that between the AP130EDFS and AP130GT, that there are getting to be close to 1000 of them around the world. I think there were around 500 or more AP130EDFS made and by now there are probably close to that many AP130GT's.


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/31/10

Loc: massachusetts
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5324082 - 07/18/12 08:08 PM

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
*****

Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5324133 - 07/18/12 09:03 PM

Because perhaps he feels that as these are the last big scopes he will make, he wants to ensure they are going to folks that waited and now will enjoy them. Not exploit them to make money. He could just as easily have asked the market value they are worth and had people pay 35-40k for them new. He didn't even if it is his ability and attention to detail that warrants the high hight. Maybe it's because he cares about his work and wants it to be affordable so people can enjoy it. Maybe because he feels if he isn't going to exploit his talent you shouldn't.

IDK, it is your money........Joe


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5324135 - 07/18/12 09:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




I would think it is because you didn't really wait. It isn't like an investment. You paid no money, no deposit, did nothing, nada, other than say at some point 20 or so years ago "Hey that sounds nice, let me know if you make one."

I personally don't know why that ancient dusty list still exists. In my opinion, it is a joke with worthless notification lists going back 10, 15, 20 years.


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/31/10

Loc: massachusetts
Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5324282 - 07/18/12 11:16 PM

Quote:

Because perhaps he feels that as these are the last big scopes he will make, he wants to ensure they are going to folks that waited and now will enjoy them. Not exploit them to make money. He could just as easily have asked the market value they are worth and had people pay 35-40k for them new. He didn't even if it is his ability and attention to detail that warrants the high hight. Maybe it's because he cares about his work and wants it to be affordable so people can enjoy it. Maybe because he feels if he isn't going to exploit his talent you shouldn't.

IDK, it is your money........Joe



Well he should obviously let the people who waited have the first chance at them. And yes, he could have charged more, not that 19.8k is "affordabe", Im sure hes gearing up for retirement and making more GP than ever on this run. Once he sets the price, a customer cant be accused of "exploiting" his talent, especially if hes waited patienly for 20 years then pony'd up 20 grand for a scope that cost less than 6 when he signed up for it. You seem like a free market guy, Im still confused as to why he cares. Hes done his part, produced and distributed his labor of love. What happens next shoudnt concern him.


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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott99]
      #5324307 - 07/18/12 11:43 PM

Quote:

There's probably a handful of people around the world that would bid up a 175mm to the sky, but how long would it last? TEC has announced another run of 180's, that is probably enough for vast majority of people. It's already f/7 for imaging and has a reasonably-priced flattener. I see that the 180 is quite a bit lighter as well, which is attractive to many buyers.

so we have 4 people on this thread getting 175's? very exciting! TEC has said there is strong demand for their 180's as well. These are amazing amateur telescopes! To me it's like seeing a famous artist cranking out more masterpieces. Even if I'll never have one, I might get to enjoy one at some point, just like seeing an art exhibit.

As far as AP 130's I think someone posted a photo of serial #300-and-something recently, I would assume they've made 300+




Make that five folks getting the AP175.


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
*****

Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5324314 - 07/18/12 11:48 PM

Indeed I am a free market guy. TBH, I don't know what he thinks. I do know he has never been thrilled when his scope are sold for outrages prices. I believe he wants them to go where they will be used and enjoyed. That maybe the person on the list that didn't want it would pass it on to the next in line. But let's face it, back in the day, some folks sold their AP mount before they took delivery. I always found that distasteful.

Joe

Edited by jmiele (07/18/12 11:49 PM)


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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5324318 - 07/18/12 11:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




I would think it is because you didn't really wait. It isn't like an investment. You paid no money, no deposit, did nothing, nada, other than say at some point 20 or so years ago "Hey that sounds nice, let me know if you make one."

I personally don't know why that ancient dusty list still exists. In my opinion, it is a joke with worthless notification lists going back 10, 15, 20 years.




In my case, I didn't carelessly put my name on the notification lists. I had specific plans for each instrument, and purchased them when I was told I had the chance (I still have the OTAs). I believe the lists are the fairest way to distribute a relatively scarce commodity, and it's up to AP how it conducts business.


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/31/10

Loc: massachusetts
Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5324326 - 07/19/12 12:03 AM

The only reason I can think of is (like you said, more than once) he wants people to enjoy the scope. Someone who jumps in and pays double the price is more likely to store the scope in a temp controlled closet. And someone who flips it has perhaps lost interest in Astronomy and is only interested in money. Maybe. And yes, I find it a bit distasteful as well, but not immoral. But its not like his request is a legal binding document. I was just curious.

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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5324349 - 07/19/12 12:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




Who knows? However, I respect AP's desire to not see their rare scopes immediately flipped for a profit. Had I lost interest in the OTAs I originally wanted, I'd have passed up my spots on the notification list when contacted by AP.


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 12/31/10

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Re: AP 175 new [Re: JJK]
      #5324361 - 07/19/12 12:48 AM

If you had the money, why though? Thats what Im asking.

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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5324534 - 07/19/12 07:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Because perhaps he feels that as these are the last big scopes he will make, he wants to ensure they are going to folks that waited and now will enjoy them. Not exploit them to make money. He could just as easily have asked the market value they are worth and had people pay 35-40k for them new. He didn't even if it is his ability and attention to detail that warrants the high hight. Maybe it's because he cares about his work and wants it to be affordable so people can enjoy it. Maybe because he feels if he isn't going to exploit his talent you shouldn't.

IDK, it is your money........Joe



Well he should obviously let the people who waited have the first chance at them. And yes, he could have charged more, not that 19.8k is "affordabe", Im sure hes gearing up for retirement and making more GP than ever on this run. Once he sets the price, a customer cant be accused of "exploiting" his talent, especially if hes waited patienly for 20 years then pony'd up 20 grand for a scope that cost less than 6 when he signed up for it. You seem like a free market guy, Im still confused as to why he cares. Hes done his part, produced and distributed his labor of love. What happens next shoudnt concern him.




I guess you're not idealistic.

Roland sells his scopes below market value so more amateurs have access to fine equipment. If he didn't care about those who buy his scopes he would have priced the 175 at $35-40K and still sold them all. It has nothing to do with the 175, AP has always looked askance at people who get on the list just to flip the scope for profit; it allows someone to buy their way over others who have been on the list for a long time. There were long discussions about it on s.a.a. One thing is for sure, if AP finds someone bought a scope with the intention of flipping (SN, etc.) the flipper goes on quite a different list.


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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5324706 - 07/19/12 10:05 AM

I have a pretty good idea of how many Stowaways were made, especially F5's; Don't know anything about the 175's - even if there aren't many they will probably get through more of the list then one would think initially - deaths, illnesses, old age, loss of interest, and cost will eliminate or dissuade many.
By the way does any one know how many 160's are out there? - I have only come across 1 other in person


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Scott99
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: JJK]
      #5324779 - 07/19/12 10:50 AM

>>>>Make that five folks getting the AP175.

Nice!!!! Also, in terms of Roland Christen, I suspect he's not planning for his retirement, remember, this IS his retirement. He's written before that a successful career in the high-end optics biz is what enabled him to "retire" early and start his own company.

It sounds like he really likes to see people using his current apos for imaging. This scope is presented as an astrograph and includes the flattener as standard equipment, I think he's hoping that active imagers will take them and use them.

The old list is probably a good method for this run because in the mid-90's there weren't many "collectors" of AP scopes, things seem to have taken off around 1999. Now you have some folks collecting multiple copies of the same AP scope just for the heck of it.

I never realized just how big the "collecting" thing is. Just watch a few episodes of "American Pickers", a lot of the people seem totally crazy to me.


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5324849 - 07/19/12 11:26 AM

I was doing more of a devils advocate sort of thing. I agree with the idea in principle.

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jmiele
Patron Saint?
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Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5324899 - 07/19/12 11:49 AM

Quote:

I have a pretty good idea of how many Stowaways were made, especially F5's; Don't know anything about the 175's - even if there aren't many they will probably get through more of the list then one would think initially - deaths, illnesses, old age, loss of interest, and cost will eliminate or dissuade many.
By the way does any one know how many 160's are out there? - I have only come across 1 other in person




I spoke to a friend out West and we compared shipping dates and serials. We had 98 and 99. That was during the last quarter of production. We have yet to find a three digit 160 AP serial. So, maybe 100 and 1 didn't make the cut? Or someone has #100..

Joe


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coz
sage


Reged: 08/25/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5324925 - 07/19/12 12:06 PM

a bit off topic but related sort of. Patek Philippe(Watch co) issues special pieces occasionaly that are even more rare than usual. They then require an application from the customer in order to get approved to buy them! We're talking well into the 6 figures here. Some of the questions include if you collect other things etc they're trying to determine if you're a flipper. I was told that they only do this in the USA? I guess Americans are greedy! Oh well maybe Roland should adopt this just kidding.

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PhilCo126
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/14/05

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Re: AP 175 new [Re: coz]
      #5324991 - 07/19/12 12:45 PM

TEC 180s might be planned but how long will the waiting lists be? Looks like TEC cannot follow the demand...

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jmiele
Patron Saint?
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Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: PhilCo126]
      #5325159 - 07/19/12 02:26 PM

I thought he got one to everyone that wanted one last round? No?
Joe


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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5325336 - 07/19/12 03:58 PM

AP Scopes are best USED, not collected.

The talk of AP scopes as an investment is WAY overrated - for the most part they hold up to inflation, more or less - don't get me wrong that's a great side bonus for any item you use and enjoy.
But there are lots of better places to invest than in heavy fragile items one handles in the dark!

Edited by Malabargold (07/19/12 04:04 PM)


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5325443 - 07/19/12 05:08 PM

There's a guy out here who has ~40 AP scopes. He's collected them and has them in storage as an investment.

People DO collect them.

If only it were easier for me to ditch some of my other scopes. That's turned out to be a problem since they really give very little back when sold compared to having the scope to set up and use.

-Rich


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 175 new [Re: JJK]
      #5325975 - 07/19/12 10:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




I would think it is because you didn't really wait. It isn't like an investment. You paid no money, no deposit, did nothing, nada, other than say at some point 20 or so years ago "Hey that sounds nice, let me know if you make one."

I personally don't know why that ancient dusty list still exists. In my opinion, it is a joke with worthless notification lists going back 10, 15, 20 years.




In my case, I didn't carelessly put my name on the notification lists. I had specific plans for each instrument, and purchased them when I was told I had the chance (I still have the OTAs). I believe the lists are the fairest way to distribute a relatively scarce commodity, and it's up to AP how it conducts business.




Yes, some people pass up on scopes they do not require, others, likely the vast majority, do not. What is sad about this scenario is that while Roland professes to put out instruments into amateurs hands at a reasonable price for a super-premium optic, the notification lists fail miserably at allowing anyone prior to signing up 15 plus years ago access to any of these items. Why are we who signed up, so many years back so blessed? Were production keeping up with interest in even a remote manner, this would be different, but it patently is not. At this point, such interest lists are a farce and I know of many people whom discuss it disparagingly. While Astro-Physics can and will do as it pleases, and has the complete right to operate as it pleases, I personally feel such adherence to these lists actually hurts their image at this point. That is my personal opinion and I personally don't care one way or another as I have absolutely no vested interest, but I am being an advocate for those whom have entered the amateur astronomy field within the past 20 years, hear about and possibly even see such telescopes at star parties, but whom have absolutely no hope of ever being able to purchase one. Just my possibly skewed point of view, but I retain my right to speak it.


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/31/10

Loc: massachusetts
Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5325983 - 07/19/12 10:47 PM

Theyre on Astromart quite regularly. However, the price will include the fee to go back in time and sign up on the list.

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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott99]
      #5325988 - 07/19/12 10:51 PM

Yeah, I know of a telescope collector in AZ who has patiently acquired four AP 10" Mak-Cass'es since 2001. He stores them away for investment. I don't understand why he is doing this, some sort of obsession with owning more samples of the same OTA.

Quote:

>>>>Make that five folks getting the AP175.

Nice!!!! Also, in terms of Roland Christen, I suspect he's not planning for this retirement, remember, this IS his retirement. He's written before that a successful career in the high-end optics biz is what enabled him to "retire" early and start his own company.

It sounds like he really likes to see people using his current apos for imaging. This scope is presented as an astrograph and includes the flattener as standard equipment, I think he's hoping that active imagers will take them and use them.

The old list is probably a good method for this run because in the mid-90's there weren't many "collectors" of AP scopes, things seem to have taken off around 1999. Now you have some folks collecting multiple copies of the same AP scope just for the heck of it.

I never realized just how big the "collecting" thing is. Just watch a few episodes of "American Pickers", a lot of the people seem totally crazy to me.





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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5326114 - 07/20/12 12:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




I would think it is because you didn't really wait. It isn't like an investment. You paid no money, no deposit, did nothing, nada, other than say at some point 20 or so years ago "Hey that sounds nice, let me know if you make one."

I personally don't know why that ancient dusty list still exists. In my opinion, it is a joke with worthless notification lists going back 10, 15, 20 years.




In my case, I didn't carelessly put my name on the notification lists. I had specific plans for each instrument, and purchased them when I was told I had the chance (I still have the OTAs). I believe the lists are the fairest way to distribute a relatively scarce commodity, and it's up to AP how it conducts business.




Yes, some people pass up on scopes they do not require, others, likely the vast majority, do not. What is sad about this scenario is that while Roland professes to put out instruments into amateurs hands at a reasonable price for a super-premium optic, the notification lists fail miserably at allowing anyone prior to signing up 15 plus years ago access to any of these items. Why are we who signed up, so many years back so blessed? Were production keeping up with interest in even a remote manner, this would be different, but it patently is not. At this point, such interest lists are a farce and I know of many people whom discuss it disparagingly. While Astro-Physics can and will do as it pleases, and has the complete right to operate as it pleases, I personally feel such adherence to these lists actually hurts their image at this point. That is my personal opinion and I personally don't care one way or another as I have absolutely no vested interest, but I am being an advocate for those whom have entered the amateur astronomy field within the past 20 years, hear about and possibly even see such telescopes at star parties, but whom have absolutely no hope of ever being able to purchase one. Just my possibly skewed point of view, but I retain my right to speak it.




I don't see how the notification lists hurt AP's image. AP is a small business, and as such, it can operate however it pleases, subject to limits imposed by state and Federal laws, and my needs.

I also don't see how the lists are unfair or worthless. I've been waiting over 16 years for AP to make a scope like this (that I can purchase), and I let AP know that back then. I would have purchased a 180 f/7 EDF and/or a 205 f/8 from them long ago had they not stopped production. I've also traveled far and wide to test AP products. Would a lottery that circumvents my long and clear interest in a mid-size apo astrograph be fairer? Not from my perspective.


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Paul G
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Reged: 05/08/03

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Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5326379 - 07/20/12 06:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




I would think it is because you didn't really wait. It isn't like an investment. You paid no money, no deposit, did nothing, nada, other than say at some point 20 or so years ago "Hey that sounds nice, let me know if you make one."

I personally don't know why that ancient dusty list still exists. In my opinion, it is a joke with worthless notification lists going back 10, 15, 20 years.




In my case, I didn't carelessly put my name on the notification lists. I had specific plans for each instrument, and purchased them when I was told I had the chance (I still have the OTAs). I believe the lists are the fairest way to distribute a relatively scarce commodity, and it's up to AP how it conducts business.




Yes, some people pass up on scopes they do not require, others, likely the vast majority, do not. What is sad about this scenario is that while Roland professes to put out instruments into amateurs hands at a reasonable price for a super-premium optic, the notification lists fail miserably at allowing anyone prior to signing up 15 plus years ago access to any of these items. Why are we who signed up, so many years back so blessed? Were production keeping up with interest in even a remote manner, this would be different, but it patently is not. At this point, such interest lists are a farce and I know of many people whom discuss it disparagingly. While Astro-Physics can and will do as it pleases, and has the complete right to operate as it pleases, I personally feel such adherence to these lists actually hurts their image at this point. That is my personal opinion and I personally don't care one way or another as I have absolutely no vested interest, but I am being an advocate for those whom have entered the amateur astronomy field within the past 20 years, hear about and possibly even see such telescopes at star parties, but whom have absolutely no hope of ever being able to purchase one. Just my possibly skewed point of view, but I retain my right to speak it.




That fact that their lists persist suggests AP's reputation isn't harmed at all by allocating scarce products to those who expressed interest first. High end products from the hands of a master craftsman in other fields have long waiting lists as well. Musical instruments are but one example. Some have longer waiting lists than AP. That some people weren't old enough, interested enough, or prescient enough to get on the list at an appropriate time is really their problem, not the manufacturer's. They can always buy it used and pay the premium for getting it now.

AP has tried other avenues, they drew names from a hat for the f5 Stowaways but that generated even more angst. First come first served is a long standing method of distributing scarce items.

How would you propose to do it?


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5326396 - 07/20/12 06:47 AM

Quote:

What is sad about this scenario is that while Roland professes to put out instruments into amateurs hands at a reasonable price for a super-premium optic, the notification lists fail miserably at allowing anyone prior to signing up 15 plus years ago access to any of these items.




Personally I admire Roland for choosing a different business model. He could just charge what the market will bear but he has chosen this model.

When Roland began, there really were no other affordable competitors. Today, there are quite a few who have followed his lead and produce high quality, affordable optics. This is where Roland has taken the community... It is worth remembering that Thomas Back who was instrumental in bringing other affordable, high quality apochromats to the market, was an observer who was a friend of Rolands who was inspired by Roland and essentially followed the Astro-Physics model in his designs.

I suggest that the availability of the affordable apo triplets is a legacy of Astro-Physics and their business model and whether you end up with a TEC, an A-P or other top notch triplet, the mere existence can be traced to Roland's efforts to make them affordable.

Jon


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Cyclop_si
professor emeritus
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Reged: 03/13/08

Loc: Slovenia
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5326436 - 07/20/12 07:48 AM

Quote:

... He could just charge what the market will bear but he has chosen this model....




I am wondering how many good astro images, made with Astro-Physic refractors, would we see in this case?

There is a lot of rich peoples that can drive price of AP scopes in the sky, but this does not make them good astro-photographers, since knowledge, dedication and talent can not be purchased, even if you have to much money to spend.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Cyclop_si]
      #5326607 - 07/20/12 10:12 AM

More to the point, the only reason anyone knows who Roland is or cares what he makes is it ISN'T coming from marketers following the latest fad from the Harvard School of Business.

Yes, there are major corners he could cut and save cash. There are outsourcing shops over the horizon he could tap to make glass and do machining. We'd have another version or Meade and no Astro Physics.

-Rich


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RodgerHouTex
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Reged: 06/02/09

Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5326652 - 07/20/12 10:41 AM

Gus,

I would suggest they ramp up production to meet demand. Astro-physics is throwing away hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in lost sales.

Edited by RodgerHouTex (07/20/12 10:42 AM)


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LivingNDixie
TSP Chowhound
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Reged: 04/23/03

Loc: Trussville, AL
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5326674 - 07/20/12 10:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In the 175EDF offer letter mailed to me it asks that a receiver of a new 175EDF not resell it for quick profit.



Has Mr Christen commented on his reasoning for this? Im just curious as to why he cares. If I waited almost 20 years for a scope Id like to think I could do whatever I wanted with it once it was mine. (not that Id let something like that go, but if someone who didnt wait on the list wanted it bad enough to pay more than 20K, why shouldnt they get to?)




I would think it is because you didn't really wait. It isn't like an investment. You paid no money, no deposit, did nothing, nada, other than say at some point 20 or so years ago "Hey that sounds nice, let me know if you make one."

I personally don't know why that ancient dusty list still exists. In my opinion, it is a joke with worthless notification lists going back 10, 15, 20 years.




In my case, I didn't carelessly put my name on the notification lists. I had specific plans for each instrument, and purchased them when I was told I had the chance (I still have the OTAs). I believe the lists are the fairest way to distribute a relatively scarce commodity, and it's up to AP how it conducts business.




Yes, some people pass up on scopes they do not require, others, likely the vast majority, do not. What is sad about this scenario is that while Roland professes to put out instruments into amateurs hands at a reasonable price for a super-premium optic, the notification lists fail miserably at allowing anyone prior to signing up 15 plus years ago access to any of these items. Why are we who signed up, so many years back so blessed? Were production keeping up with interest in even a remote manner, this would be different, but it patently is not. At this point, such interest lists are a farce and I know of many people whom discuss it disparagingly. While Astro-Physics can and will do as it pleases, and has the complete right to operate as it pleases, I personally feel such adherence to these lists actually hurts their image at this point. That is my personal opinion and I personally don't care one way or another as I have absolutely no vested interest, but I am being an advocate for those whom have entered the amateur astronomy field within the past 20 years, hear about and possibly even see such telescopes at star parties, but whom have absolutely no hope of ever being able to purchase one. Just my possibly skewed point of view, but I retain my right to speak it.




That fact that their lists persist suggests AP's reputation isn't harmed at all by allocating scarce products to those who expressed interest first. High end products from the hands of a master craftsman in other fields have long waiting lists as well. Musical instruments are but one example. Some have longer waiting lists than AP. That some people weren't old enough, interested enough, or prescient enough to get on the list at an appropriate time is really their problem, not the manufacturer's. They can always buy it used and pay the premium for getting it now.

AP has tried other avenues, they drew names from a hat for the f5 Stowaways but that generated even more angst. First come first served is a long standing method of distributing scarce items.

How would you propose to do it?




The thing that rubbed me the wrong way about the Stowaways, was that the names who were drawn for the them were not just random people, it was people who had bought at least one product for them. Considering Roland knew he wasn't going to make the Traveler at that point, he should have given those folks first shot.

I admire Roland and his craft, even own a nice star diagonal his company makes.

When I was younger I really wanted an AP scope, but today considering the market and the quality of other scopes out there, I would rather buy something that is actually available then hope and dream for something that will probably never be a reality.

The best thing Roland could do is shut down the scope line and just focus on mounts. If he wants to makes scopes, he needs to get serious and start charging deposits and show he is really in business to make them and get rid of the lookyloos who make these lists insane.

However being Roland has chosen his business model, it has made room for other companies to produce products that people can actually buy... and that is a good thing.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5326701 - 07/20/12 11:05 AM

Quote:

Gus,

I would suggest they ramp up production to meet demand. Astro-physics is throwing away hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in lost sales.




I don't think Astro-Physics primary concern is their sales figures. If that were the case, they would have chosen a different business model or probably a different business as it's pretty clear that Roland would succeed at what ever he chose.

Does Roland still do the final figuring and testing of each scope?

Jon


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
*****

Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5326715 - 07/20/12 11:12 AM

Quote:

Gus,

I would suggest they ramp up production to meet demand. Astro-physics is throwing away hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in lost sales.




I believe that A-P has a business model that they are happy with. They appear to be happy with current profits, providing good livings for their employees and are still able to maintain quality. I think that's important to them - all of them. Not just Rolando. Everyone at A-P cares about quality. At least in my experience. In another forum recently someone asked Roland about getting a useless lens for them junk pile. You know, as a souvenir. Roland said he had many, however Marj would never allow him to send something out that wasn't the best that A-P had to offer.

Along that line. I didn't now that from the glass they receive, they don't just hold it up to a light look through it and decide, "that's a good one". They have to (Rolando) grind and polish it to a point they can test and THEN they find they just lost a piece of expensive glass and a ton of labor. And the rejection rate - 10-50% - per Roland. That's a scary operating margin.

Joe


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vahe
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 08/27/05

Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5326788 - 07/20/12 12:01 PM

Quote:

And the rejection rate - 10-50% - per Roland. That's a scary operating margin.




The high rejection rate is not all that scary, it is a fact of life and there should be no surprises, it is what it is and it is not going to change.

That said the ultimate cost of high rejection rate is amortized in the final price structure of the refractors that are released to the marketplace. The very high cost of AP175, compared to previous AP refractors, in my opinion reflects that fact.

Another example is TEC Maks, Yuri stated that one reason for stopping their production was the glass rejection rates, but he also stated that if he ever re-introduced 10” Maks again the price would be roughly equal to 180FL or essentially double of what these fat cats were priced while in production.

Vahe


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Scott99
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Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: New England
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5326789 - 07/20/12 12:01 PM

>>>>Yeah, I know of a telescope collector in AZ who has patiently acquired four AP 10" Mak-Cass'es since 2001. He stores them away for investment. I don't understand why he is doing this, some sort of obsession with owning more samples of the same OTA.

that's unfortunate, but it looks like APM/Mattias Wirth have been inspired to do a "revival" run of 10-inch f/14.6, 23% CO Maks. Looks interesting. Weight is supposed to be below 30 pounds.


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vahe
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 08/27/05

Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5326811 - 07/20/12 12:17 PM

Quote:


AP has tried other avenues, they drew names from a hat for the f5 Stowaways but that generated even more angst. First come first served is a long standing method of distributing scarce items.





Shorty after AP175 announcement on ap-ug, as expected, intense discussions started by all usual suspects including the big question of who are going to get this latest refractor. The waiting list was again revisited and discussed, in one of his replies Roland indicated that they are going to do away with their current waiting list in favor of something different, but this will happen after AP175.
AP is beginning to realize that the current waiting list is not the best approach and something needs to be done about it.

Vahe


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
*****

Reged: 12/04/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: vahe]
      #5326863 - 07/20/12 12:49 PM

Vahe, I didn't mean to imply it was a surprise. Just stating the facts. It's part of the deal, however as Roland said, one has to decide if they way to take the risk. The bigger the blank and production run - the greater the potential gain or loss. If you are happy with your current situation, why take big risks.. If he didn't have the blanks, I don't think the current 175 run happens. But he did have them.

Joe


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Paul G
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: AP 175 new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5326915 - 07/20/12 01:31 PM

Quote:

Gus,

I would suggest they ramp up production to meet demand. Astro-physics is throwing away hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in lost sales.




If profit were his overriding motive he would do a lot of things differently. But if he ramped up production of scopes he would not be able to do the final figuring on each objective and AP scopes would lose a big part of what sets AP apart. There are plenty of mass produced scopes produced by other companies, AP fills a different niche in the market.


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saemark30
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/21/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5327285 - 07/20/12 06:09 PM

AP business model is primarily a mount manufacturer!

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: saemark30]
      #5327312 - 07/20/12 06:21 PM

Quote:

AP business model is primarily a mount manufacturer!




It may be that way now but certainly that was not how it began.

Jon


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johnnyha
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5327380 - 07/20/12 07:37 PM

Quote:

Yes, some people pass up on scopes they do not require, others, likely the vast majority, do not. What is sad about this scenario is that while Roland professes to put out instruments into amateurs hands at a reasonable price for a super-premium optic, the notification lists fail miserably at allowing anyone prior to signing up 15 plus years ago access to any of these items. Why are we who signed up, so many years back so blessed? Were production keeping up with interest in even a remote manner, this would be different, but it patently is not. At this point, such interest lists are a farce and I know of many people whom discuss it disparagingly. While Astro-Physics can and will do as it pleases, and has the complete right to operate as it pleases, I personally feel such adherence to these lists actually hurts their image at this point. That is my personal opinion and I personally don't care one way or another as I have absolutely no vested interest, but I am being an advocate for those whom have entered the amateur astronomy field within the past 20 years, hear about and possibly even see such telescopes at star parties, but whom have absolutely no hope of ever being able to purchase one. Just my possibly skewed point of view, but I retain my right to speak it.




OK, Roland has a lot of people who want his scopes so he has them put their names on a list. Assuming when their name comes up they do not want the scope, the HONORABLE thing to do is bow out and offer the scope to the next guy on the list - not buy it with no intention of using it and sell it to an opportunist!

And this is not democratic why?? There could be nothing more American than this list. How can you not see that the HONORABLE, FAIR thing to do is let the next guy on the list have it if you don't want it?!

And even so, incredible scopes from AP are available daily on Astromart to the highest bidder... they are available. But circumventing the list is somehow your concern? Your concern is that the new amateur astronomer cannot immediately step ahead of the long established protocol and get these wonderful scopes, because of this confounded list?

How does an "amateur" or first-timer rate getting the new AP175 over someone who wanted one twelve years ago and signed up to get one? You want to snatch that away from that poor guy at the last second after he has waited twelve years WHY? Because now suddenly YOU want it? So did he - TWELVE YEARS AGO!


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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5327616 - 07/20/12 10:57 PM

Roland is running things perfectly honorable by attending to the one's who expressed interest in his products the earliest...and by placing their names on his interest list at that time. It was in 1995 that I expressed enough interest to ask Marj over the phone that my name be put on the 180EDT list, and any large APO list if one was going to be created.

I thought we were all amateurs. Who's a professional here?

Quote:

OK, Roland has a lot of people who want his scopes so he has them put their names on a list. Assuming when their name comes up they do not want the scope, the HONORABLE thing to do is bow out and offer the scope to the next guy on the list - not buy it with no intention of using it and sell it to an opportunist!

And this is not democratic why?? There could be nothing more American than this list. How can you not see that the HONORABLE, FAIR thing to do is let the next guy on the list have it if you don't want it?!

And even so, incredible scopes from AP are available daily on Astromart to the highest bidder... they are available. But circumventing the list is somehow your concern? Your concern is that the new amateur astronomer cannot immediately step ahead of the long established protocol and get these wonderful scopes, because of this confounded list?

How does an "amateur" or first-timer rate getting the new AP175 over someone who wanted one twelve years ago and signed up to get one? You want to snatch that away from that poor guy at the last second after he has waited twelve years WHY? Because now suddenly YOU want it? So did he - TWELVE YEARS AGO!




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EddWen
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/26/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5328040 - 07/21/12 10:49 AM

Correct. Primarily because Roland has employed people capable of building mounts to his quality specification.

And, although he has tried, he's not been able to find another opticion to make lens to his satisfaction.

Quote:

Quote:

AP business model is primarily a mount manufacturer!




It may be that way now but certainly that was not how it began.

Jon




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Svezda
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/01/07

Loc: Texas
Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5328404 - 07/21/12 03:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Because perhaps he feels that as these are the last big scopes he will make, he wants to ensure they are going to folks that waited and now will enjoy them. Not exploit them to make money. He could just as easily have asked the market value they are worth and had people pay 35-40k for them new. He didn't even if it is his ability and attention to detail that warrants the high hight. Maybe it's because he cares about his work and wants it to be affordable so people can enjoy it. Maybe because he feels if he isn't going to exploit his talent you shouldn't.

IDK, it is your money........Joe



Well he should obviously let the people who waited have the first chance at them. And yes, he could have charged more, not that 19.8k is "affordabe", Im sure hes gearing up for retirement and making more GP than ever on this run. Once he sets the price, a customer cant be accused of "exploiting" his talent, especially if hes waited patienly for 20 years then pony'd up 20 grand for a scope that cost less than 6 when he signed up for it. You seem like a free market guy, Im still confused as to why he cares. Hes done his part, produced and distributed his labor of love. What happens next shoudnt concern him.



I am a degreed and 'sometimes' professional artist. I feel the same way that I imagine Rolando feels - that if I created true masterpieces of the painter's art (as he does in the optical 'art') then I'd want them to go to people who love and appreciate them, not to investors. The reason is that when I paint I paint not as a businessman trying simply to earn money but also as an artist. If I made iron fences or did body work or made some other kind of utilitarian object I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't care what people did with my work after I sold it to them, even if they sold it for twice my price...but as an artist (like Roland is) there is a whole other dimension to his work: there is a desire to have people appreciate his telescopes and to enjoy them for somewhat 'spiritual' and aesthetic reasons, which are counter to the desire to buy such art objects simply to see how much one can profit from them.

Of course, it is my right to sell a painting or a telescope at any time and for as much as I can get (for one thing, I might really need the money for a serious reason) but I think Roland /hopes/ that his customers don't buy his telescopes simply with the /intention/ to sell them as they might sell a car or a boat just to make a huge profit on them. That's my take on it.


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Alvan Clark
sage


Reged: 03/13/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5328477 - 07/21/12 03:53 PM

Quote:

Gus,

I would suggest they ramp up production to meet demand. Astro-physics is throwing away hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in lost sales.




It seems he doesn't want to do that. So, that leaves the other method. Raise the price. If he's doing a run of fifty, he could do a dutch auction. Fifty highest bidders get the scopes. No waiting list required.


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Svezda
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/01/07

Loc: Texas
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Alvan Clark]
      #5328688 - 07/21/12 06:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Gus,

I would suggest they ramp up production to meet demand. Astro-physics is throwing away hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in lost sales.




It seems he doesn't want to do that. So, that leaves the other method. Raise the price. If he's doing a run of fifty, he could do a dutch auction. Fifty highest bidders get the scopes. No waiting list required.



People don't realize how generous Roland is, I think. There is a similar situation among the best classical guitar makers. They often only produce very limited numbers of instruments, since, like Roland, they make these by hand with a lot of individual attention to the final product, kind of like Roland's hand figuring.

These makers charge $~12 to ~20K for these guitars, and there are often similar waiting lists to AP's, in some cases going for ten years. These makers charge what they can get for these instruments, because, as far as I know, there is no 'flipping' of guitars, even though they are very hard to get and very much in demand. The people who buy them are either professionals or serious amateurs who really use them. The new price more clearly reflects the real value, I think, or else one might tend to see flipping of new, unused super high-end classical guitars, but I never see it or hear of it.

Roland could charge almost ridiculous prices for his scopes, and he'd still sell them all. There would be little flipping because the new price would already be so high that the seller would have little chance of earning a profit. There'd be sales due to changes in life circumstances, health reasons, etc. but not to make a quick buck. I think it's amazing that Roland doesn't just 'charge what the market will bear' and I applaud him for it since it makes his scopes available to more than just the richest of amateur astronomers (or investors).


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gillmj24
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 12/06/05

Loc: PA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Svezda]
      #5328797 - 07/21/12 07:50 PM

Well said.

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EddWen
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/26/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Svezda]
      #5329682 - 07/22/12 12:14 PM

Thank you Svezda.

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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: AP 175 new [Re: gillmj24]
      #5329755 - 07/22/12 12:58 PM

Quote:

Well said.



Now if only someone wrote a song about Roland


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: gillmj24]
      #5330272 - 07/22/12 07:16 PM

Quote:

Well said.




+1


Jon


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5330746 - 07/23/12 01:46 AM

I think part of this is Roland wants the scopes to get into the hands of skilled amateur astronomers. Yes, it could gravitate to being all about the money, and the only people who would own one would be people looking for a status symbol, and they'd be out of reach to anyone else.

One point I think needs considering is the flippers aren't really making all that much. Maybe 15%, for which they had to put up the cash to get the scope. So, the flipping really is kind of stupid. More commonly, the ones I've checked out just had more than they expected show up, and they just weren't prepared/ had doubts/ or found it was beyond them.

Those are a bit of a relief valve for the list. Pay attention and buy one being sold at cost.

And since I've learned there are over three times as many AP130 EDFGT OTAs shipped as NP-127s. The problem really is demand.

-Rich


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Eric Gage
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 12/13/05

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Alph]
      #5331511 - 07/23/12 03:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well said.



Now if only someone wrote a song about Roland




Le Chanson de Roland is a classic of world literature, but I didn't think our optical friend was quite that old.


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johnnyha
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Eric Gage]
      #5331558 - 07/23/12 03:36 PM

Roland Roland Roland
the list has gotten swollen
keep them scopes a rollin'
Rawhide!

Rain, wind and weather
Hell bent for leather
Some on the list have even cried
No time to count em
Just uncase 'em and mount 'em
AP900 by my side

Pack 'em up! Ship 'em out!
Ship 'em out! Move 'em out!
Mount 'em up, Rawhide!

Roland Roland Roland
Rawhide!



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Rich N
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 09/22/04

Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5331586 - 07/23/12 03:53 PM

I like the song!

It looks like I'll be getting a 175EDF sometime in September. :-)

Rich


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Ryan W
sage
*****

Reged: 10/26/10

Loc: Port Matilda, PA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: PhilCo126]
      #5331926 - 07/23/12 07:05 PM

Quote:

TEC 180s might be planned but how long will the waiting lists be? Looks like TEC cannot follow the demand...




I spoke with Yuri a few days ago and he said he is doing a new run of TEC 180s soon. He is waiting until the end of July for orders and then place his glass order with Schott and begin production asap. I was quoted a wait time of 3 months, id expect it to be more like 6, but that is better than 10 years (for me at least). I put my name on the TEC list about a month ago thinking it would be a while until they produced any, if ever. I purchased a TEC 160ed in the meantime to "hold me over", i planned on having it for a while. That changed when I found out about the 180 run last week. Got lucky!

On the 175s, i agree that Roland is doing an excellent thing by keeping the prices down for those who still want the scopes. I don't agree that he should ask people to not sell them if they want to. That said, I probably wouldn't flip the scope considering I am in the market for that size (and price) refractor.

Sorry for taking it off topic a little at the beginning,
Ryan W


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Scott99
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: New England
Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5332097 - 07/23/12 09:04 PM

Quote:

Roland Roland Roland
the list has gotten swollen
keep them scopes a rollin'
Rawhide!:





very nice!


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Rich N
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 09/22/04

Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: AP 175 new [Re: vahe]
      #5333261 - 07/24/12 03:11 PM

Speaking of pricing, the QRBASE (finder scope base) is now $40.00. I think it was around $37. I needed it for the 175EDF. The good thing is the QRBASE works very well.

Rich


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RodgerHouTex
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/02/09

Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Rich N]
      #5333353 - 07/24/12 03:58 PM

Ok, I'm sorry but I can't let all of this go.

First let me comment on the earlier post about someone who has approximately 40 AP scopes as an investment. What will happen is he will die and his heirs, not knowing what he had, will sell them for pennies on the dollar.

I know. I had a gun collection that I had to divide with my ex-wife. She sold the ones I gave her for about 1/4 of what they were worth.

And then there's the guy who has, what was it, 4 AP 10" Maks. Why? You can only look through one at a time. Same thing will happen to him.

Oh, and when it comes to Roland grinding and polishing his objectives lovingly. Doesn't happen. He has a machine, or machines that is/are programmed and grinds and polishes the objectives, if I remember correctly, to around 1/8 wave. All that Roland does is the final figuring. It's kind of similar to the Rolex myth. They no longer hand assemble watches and haven't for years. They make over a million watches a year by MACHINE.

And finally, Roland, nor any other manufacturer can sell their products at collector prices unless they are unethical. As a manufacturer he acquires the materials to manufacture an item, spends the manpower to assemble them, and tacks on a reasonable profit margin as it should be.

The "collectors" of APs in the amateur community are to blame for the outrageous prices Roland's scopes resell for. Maybe his message was aimed at those folks when it comes to "please don't resell them".


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Rich N
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 09/22/04

Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: AP 175 new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5333408 - 07/24/12 04:28 PM

With one exception I actually use my different AP OTAs. No, nowhere near 40 OTAs, darn it.

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John Kuhl
sage


Reged: 11/10/05

Loc: SoCal
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Rich N]
      #5333526 - 07/24/12 05:47 PM

There are a lot of companies that manufacturer products and sell at collector prices. The cost of diamonds and all gem stones come to mind. What about cars? Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Rolls-Royce get collector prices on new products. Same with those Rolex watches you talked about. When it comes to AP scopes it is all about supply and demand.

Best, John

Edited by John Kuhl (07/24/12 05:48 PM)


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5333543 - 07/24/12 05:54 PM

Quote:

Oh, and when it comes to Roland grinding and polishing his objectives lovingly. Doesn't happen. He has a machine, or machines that is/are programmed and grinds and polishes the objectives, if I remember correctly, to around 1/8 wave. All that Roland does is the final figuring.




I think every one understands that Roland doesn't grind the lenses, he does have some very sophisticated equipment for grinding and polishing the glass. It's worth noting too that the the sum total of the optical errors would be 1/8-10th wave which means the individual lenses would need to be considerably better.

And I think there is a whole lot more than Roland does than the final figuring but he is the one that does that figuring and testing and decides it's ready.

My suggestion:

If you don't want an Astro-Physics scope, don't want to wait in line... Don't.

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (07/24/12 05:56 PM)


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houser23
sage


Reged: 10/26/09

Loc: Rocklin, CA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: vahe]
      #5333813 - 07/24/12 09:06 PM

I think the man hording the 4 AP Maks is ridiculous, and I understand that it's his money and he can do whatever he wants with it but come on sell those babies so someone else can enjoy the fruits of Rolands labor.

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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Rich N]
      #5334312 - 07/25/12 08:31 AM

Quote:

With one exception I actually use my different AP OTAs. No, nowhere near 40 OTAs, darn it.




As do I.


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RodgerHouTex
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/02/09

Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: John Kuhl]
      #5334379 - 07/25/12 09:33 AM

I'm sorry but I don't agree with your examples.

For example Rolex. They are living on a reputation that they built a long time ago. They spend ungodly sums on advertising, and I actually believe that they are screwing the people who buy their products. (I own a Breitling ). Also, if I remember properly, the owner or CEO lost almost all his money in the Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme. Is Rolex charging a premium for collectablity? I don't think so.

Edited by RodgerHouTex (07/25/12 09:43 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5334415 - 07/25/12 09:55 AM

Quote:

For example Rolex. They are living on a reputation that they built a long time ago. They spend ungodly sums on advertising, and I actually believe that they are screwing the people who buy their products.




A Rolex is old technology, it's a mechanical wonder but far from state of the art as a time piece. If one is interested in the most accurate time, there are far cheaper, more accurate watches.

Jon


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mark8888
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/24/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5334431 - 07/25/12 10:08 AM

Quote:

And finally, Roland, nor any other manufacturer can sell their products at collector prices unless they are unethical.




I don't agree with that, not in a capitalist country, unless you are talking about necessities like food staples and energy.


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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: mark8888]
      #5334459 - 07/25/12 10:33 AM

I thought we were (supposed) to be a country of individual liberties.
Friends from other countries who visit are always astonished
at how many "thou shall nots" we have and how many Americans want to foist their particular ethos (pun) on their fellow countrymen


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RodgerHouTex
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/02/09

Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5334516 - 07/25/12 11:11 AM

It is my opinion (and possibly Roland's as well based on his reported statement) that gouging people is unethical when it comes to reselling his scopes at ridiculous prices.

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mark8888
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/24/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5334537 - 07/25/12 11:20 AM

Quote:

It is my opinion (and possibly Roland's as well based on his reported statement) that gouging people is unethical when it comes to reselling his scopes at ridiculous prices.




You didn't say anything about "reselling his scopes" in your statement. You said, "And finally, Roland, nor any other manufacturer can sell their products at collector prices unless they are unethical."

Thats not reselling, thats selling. People can create a product and sell it for whatever they want, and if people want to buy it at that price, they will. That's not gouging.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5334550 - 07/25/12 11:30 AM

Quote:

It is my opinion (and possibly Roland's as well based on his reported statement) that gouging people is unethical when it comes to reselling his scopes at ridiculous prices.




If I purchased a stock that rose in value by a factor of 100x and decide to sell it, should I sell it for the original price or should I sell it for it's current market price?

If I purchased a Astro-Physics refractor and lovingly used it for 15 years and then decided to sell it, what should I do, sell it for the original price or should I sell it for the current market price?

The key word here is "gouging". It is not an objective word free of judgment, it is a word used do describe raising the price of a necessity when the supply is short and the demand high. Gouging is raising the price of gasoline when people are fleeing a hurricane.

Price Gouging

Astro-Physics telescopes are not a necessity, no one needs a telescope, the buyer can choose not to buy, the buyer can buy an other product.

Personally, if owned an A-P telescope, I would probably keep it. If I decided to sell it for some reason I would sell it for the market price.

jon


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RodgerHouTex
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/02/09

Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5334579 - 07/25/12 11:49 AM

You folks are entitled to your opinions. I just disagree.

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EddWen
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/26/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5334747 - 07/25/12 12:55 PM

Jon,

I think Roland was addressing 'flipping' rather than selling an A-P scope after owning it and using it for a while.

A-P is working off an old interest list. There will only be a few of these scopes made. Certainly, some of these people may no longer be interested in astronomy now, for whatever reason. They may buy anyway, and sell it quickly, just because they can.

Oddly, I have an A-P 155EDF that I took out of my observatory in January after enjoying it for near 10 years, when I installed a new scope. I put it up for auction, it did not sell. I really should offer it again, but as I look at it sitting on a bench outside my office, I'm ambivalant. Although replaced by the A-P 160, it is still a neat piece of gear.

For those concerned about Rolexs, I planned to retire at the age of 40 when I started my career. Didn't happen, but bought my retirement watch anyway. Thirty years later it is worth 5 times what I paid for it. No desire to sell it either. It will be passed on to my eldest son as tradition suggests.


Quote:

Quote:

It is my opinion (and possibly Roland's as well based on his reported statement) that gouging people is unethical when it comes to reselling his scopes at ridiculous prices.




If I purchased a stock that rose in value by a factor of 100x and decide to sell it, should I sell it for the original price or should I sell it for it's current market price?

If I purchased a Astro-Physics refractor and lovingly used it for 15 years and then decided to sell it, what should I do, sell it for the original price or should I sell it for the current market price?

The key word here is "gouging". It is not an objective word free of judgment, it is a word used do describe raising the price of a necessity when the supply is short and the demand high. Gouging is raising the price of gasoline when people are fleeing a hurricane.

Price Gouging

Astro-Physics telescopes are not a necessity, no one needs a telescope, the buyer can choose not to buy, the buyer can buy an other product.

Personally, if owned an A-P telescope, I would probably keep it. If I decided to sell it for some reason I would sell it for the market price.

jon




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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5334749 - 07/25/12 12:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It is my opinion (and possibly Roland's as well based on his reported statement) that gouging people is unethical when it comes to reselling his scopes at ridiculous prices.




If I purchased a stock that rose in value by a factor of 100x and decide to sell it, should I sell it for the original price or should I sell it for it's current market price?

If I purchased a Astro-Physics refractor and lovingly used it for 15 years and then decided to sell it, what should I do, sell it for the original price or should I sell it for the current market price?

The key word here is "gouging". It is not an objective word free of judgment, it is a word used do describe raising the price of a necessity when the supply is short and the demand high. Gouging is raising the price of gasoline when people are fleeing a hurricane.

Price Gouging

Astro-Physics telescopes are not a necessity, no one needs a telescope, the buyer can choose not to buy, the buyer can buy an other product.

Personally, if owned an A-P telescope, I would probably keep it. If I decided to sell it for some reason I would sell it for the market price.

jon




I agree Jon. In fact, there are many options for those choosing NOT to purchase A-P. Roland has often recommended Tak TOA instruments to folks complaining they will never get one of his scopes new. He said they are at least as good as his. Also the TEC's are available at reasonable wait times.

I have bought and sold MANY scopes and many A-P's. Some A-P's have sold for low and others I've sold have recorded record auction prices. I use the auctions as I feel it more fair to allow any to have a shot to get it. The market will determine the final price and I generally don't use a reserve, or I set it lower than I paid. As these are "luxury items", as you said, nice not need to have, I see nothing wrong with this process. However, I do ask friends in advance that I feel may be interested and always offer it to them at the cost I paid. I don't "have" to do that, I want to do that.

I will say this however, I grow tired of those that complain about the prices stating they can't afford to buy them. Do they tell the Mercedes dealer to lower the price because the only have the money for a Honda? Should I sell below market value because some are offended? How does that ensure they will get it? In that case it's the first person to see the ad. How is that helpful.

At the end of the day we are talking about one of two things when it comes to A-P scopes that is driving folks desire.

-Status
-The last 5% of performance

Both of them are nice but not need and if you want them - you gotta pay...as I've said many times before, folks don't have to like it, that's just how it is.

Joe


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: EddWen]
      #5334920 - 07/25/12 02:10 PM

Quote:

Jon,

I think Roland was addressing 'flipping' rather than selling an A-P scope after owning it and using it for a while.






Exactly...

Flipping and gouging are two quite different things, Roger was addressing the high prices that collectable A-P bring, Roland is addressing those who buy the scope only to sell it. I have watched those auctions, there is not a lot of money made doing that.

Jon


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johnnyha
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5334932 - 07/25/12 02:15 PM

Yes, the flipping shows the ugly side of unbridled capitalism.

Just be glad Roland hasn't flipped the company. If a board of directors was running Astro-Physics it would only be a matter of a few years before a) the parts are outsourced to China and b) the profits are spent on Rolex watches for the chief executives.


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gillmj24
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5334976 - 07/25/12 02:41 PM

Vintage Rolex or new?

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RodgerHouTex
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: gillmj24]
      #5335030 - 07/25/12 03:15 PM

Funny post.

Gouge (def.) - To extort from.
Extort (def.) - To obtain something by unfair means.

Flipping is gouging or obtaining an exorbitant profit by unfair means. In this case, buying an AP 175 refractor for the sole purpose of making a huge profit. Once again, it is not ethical.

Edited by RodgerHouTex (07/25/12 03:18 PM)


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BillP
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5335219 - 07/25/12 05:18 PM

Quote:

I will say this however, I grow tired of those that complain about the prices stating they can't afford to buy them.




IMO, there is valid reason to "complain" about flippers because they are in the end nothing more than "opportunists" forcing the equipment to behave like commodity trading and in it for nothing other than profit. That being said, they are effectively being a "business" while not having to abide by the various laws around businesses. So all around, less than ethical IMO also. If you were on the list, got a call, don't want it, then don't take it to flip!

However, from a pricing new standpoint, AP is not all that expensive. A bare Tak TOA-130 goes for $6,500 new, whereas an AP 130EDFGT comes in at $5,975 new with some more accessories than the Tak. AP's 175EDF price new at $19,800 is also somewhat of a steal as a Tak FET-200 triplet APO (with mount) costs $197,000! Take out the mount and as a bare OTA I'd guess the Tak price will be around $90,000 since the mount it comes with in the other pricing sells separately for $99,000. So in reality, Tak is a pricier scope.

Finally, as far as the flipping going on in the market, IMO it can be easily stopped or greatly suppressed if AP changed the wait-list process. This wait list concept he uses is IMO the cause of it all, so AP really does have little to complain about related to flipping since they are spawning the phenomenon.


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MikeBOKC
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5335251 - 07/25/12 05:38 PM

Just a couple of observations on this discussion:

-- Flipping, etc., really has not a lot to do with capitalism, which is really about a business selling products or services to the population at large in a free market environment. It actually has more similarities to a black market/underground economy type of situation.

-- Fine astronomical equipment like an AstroPhysics scope has a very, very limited market. It's not like the Rolex watch cited above,and certainly not like diamonds or precious metals, which are much more commonly bought and sold and sometimes hoarded to maximize profit. I would bet that the number of people buying AP scopes worldwide for the specific purpose of investment could be counted on the fingers of one hand; the vast majority of them are sold to, used by and sometimes resold by actual astronomers. If I was ever in a position to buy one of these scopes, either new or used, at least 99 percent of my notivation would be to put it on a mount and look through it . . . probably less than one percent would have anything at all to do with what I might someday be able to get for it. And frankly if I ever did decide to sell it I would be a lot more interested in passing on a fine instrument to someone who would appreciate and use it than in maximizing the financial return.

Edited by MikeBOKC (07/25/12 05:39 PM)


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JJK
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5335328 - 07/25/12 06:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I will say this however, I grow tired of those that complain about the prices stating they can't afford to buy them.




IMO, there is valid reason to "complain" about flippers because they are in the end nothing more than "opportunists" forcing the equipment to behave like commodity trading and in it for nothing other than profit. That being said, they are effectively being a "business" while not having to abide by the various laws around businesses. So all around, less than ethical IMO also. If you were on the list, got a call, don't want it, then don't take it to flip!

However, from a pricing new standpoint, AP is not all that expensive. A bare Tak TOA-130 goes for $6,500 new, whereas an AP 130EDFGT comes in at $5,975 new with some more accessories than the Tak. AP's 175EDF price new at $19,800 is also somewhat of a steal as a Tak FET-200 triplet APO (with mount) costs $197,000! Take out the mount and as a bare OTA I'd guess the Tak price will be around $90,000 since the mount it comes with in the other pricing sells separately for $99,000. So in reality, Tak is a pricier scope.

Finally, as far as the flipping going on in the market, IMO it can be easily stopped or greatly suppressed if AP changed the wait-list process. This wait list concept he uses is IMO the cause of it all, so AP really does have little to complain about related to flipping since they are spawning the phenomenon.




I'm in favor of AP's wait list policy because I took an active interest in their products and wanted to use them. I traveled far and wide to see and use AP equipment critically enough to know whether it suited my purposes. I added my name to the waiting lists only for those items I thougt I had a use for. In my view, selling the instruments in a lottery fashion is a random process that would render my considerable efforts a complete waste of time, and would not solve the flipping issue.

I have sold several AP mounts (for at or less than my cost) when I upgraded to larger and GTO-capable versions, a 155 f/7 EDF I got second hand and sold at my cost (when AP notified me I could order a new one at an even higher price), a 130GT several years after I bought it because I found that it wasn't getting enough use (I sold it at my cost).

I could have easily sold those items for an additional $8K to $10K total, but I didn't want to. In addition, years ago, someone offered me a ridiculous sum for an AP Mak-Cass. I turned that offer down. I didn't buy it to bolster my 401K.

AP essentially asked those who want to buy the 175 f/8 to not flip it (specifically, they recommended that one not buy it unless they really wanted to use it). I think that is a very reasonable request.


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t.r.
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: JJK]
      #5335412 - 07/25/12 07:23 PM

Roland can kill flipping easily...NO WARRANTY or SERVICE SUPPORT for a scope flipped new in the box. It would kill the value immediately. Simple.

Edited by t.r. (07/25/12 07:33 PM)


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vahe
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5335444 - 07/25/12 07:46 PM

Quote:

AP's 175EDF price new at $19,800 is also somewhat of a steal as a Tak FET-200 triplet APO (with mount) costs $197,000!






Do not see the real point of comparing AP175 to Tak 200FCT, the two have very little in common, by the way Tak/mount combo has a list price of $227K. To me if a comparison can be made the contender would be TEC 200FL where both have the same aperture and both are fluorite, the last list price of TEC 200FL was 1/4th the Tak ota list price!

Vahe


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gillmj24
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: vahe]
      #5335497 - 07/25/12 08:21 PM

Or tec180 for the same price as ap175...

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blueman
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: t.r.]
      #5335614 - 07/25/12 09:39 PM

Once an item is sold, whatever it is, it is the sole property of that owner and he is welcome to do anything he wishes with the item. Why should any manufacturer put a limit on any owner to tell them what to do with it once they purchase it?
Should this be the case with other things, cars, gold or silver?
This whole idea that anyone should control the going price for anything is rediculous.
Blueman
Quote:

Roland can kill flipping easily...NO WARRANTY or SERVICE SUPPORT for a scope flipped new in the box. It would kill the value immediately. Simple.




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Peter Natscher
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5335679 - 07/25/12 10:18 PM

"unbridled capitalism"?

Quote:

Yes, the flipping shows the ugly side of unbridled capitalism.

Just be glad Roland hasn't flipped the company. If a board of directors was running Astro-Physics it would only be a matter of a few years before a) the parts are outsourced to China and b) the profits are spent on Rolex watches for the chief executives.




Edited by Peter Natscher (07/25/12 10:19 PM)


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BillP
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: t.r.]
      #5335712 - 07/25/12 10:41 PM

Quote:

Roland can kill flipping easily...NO WARRANTY or SERVICE SUPPORT for a scope flipped new in the box. It would kill the value immediately. Simple.




Yup...if AP really wanted to discourage flipping, as they have said, then there are things they could do that would have more effect than simply "asking" people not to do it. I personally don't see the purpose in requesting people not to do this when more can be done (although it certainly has marketing benefit as it gets people talking more and therefore gets the word out about AP more to those who might not know....RC is IMO quite a shrewd marketer anyway). Interestingly, making the request could actually encourage it more as people hate being told what to do. But this topic is really nothing more than intellectual musings. Bottom line is that people can do whatever they wish with no repercussions, ethical, unethical, or indifferently, as long as it is within the bounds of the law. And we see this every day unfortunately.


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5335733 - 07/25/12 10:53 PM

"RC is IMO quite a shrewd marketer anyway"
Nah, we all know Marj is the business brains of that operation.

Joe


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idealistic
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5335769 - 07/25/12 11:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Roland can kill flipping easily...NO WARRANTY or SERVICE SUPPORT for a scope flipped new in the box. It would kill the value immediately. Simple.




Yup...if AP really wanted to discourage flipping, as they have said, then there are things they could do that would have more effect than simply "asking" people not to do it. I personally don't see the purpose in requesting people not to do this when more can be done (although it certainly has marketing benefit as it gets people talking more and therefore gets the word out about AP more to those who might not know....RC is IMO quite a shrewd marketer anyway). Interestingly, making the request could actually encourage it more as people hate being told what to do. But this topic is really nothing more than intellectual musings. Bottom line is that people can do whatever they wish with no repercussions, ethical, unethical, or indifferently, as long as it is within the bounds of the law. And we see this every day unfortunately.



But offering no service/support would be contrary to Astro-Physics pricipled approach to producing and providing the absolute best refractors for amateurs. And the fact that their customers (or any consumer) can do "whatever they wish with no repercussions, ethical, unethical, or indifferently, as long as it is within the bounds of the law" is a good thing as long as the transaction takes place without any coersion from either party.

A simple request is IMO the best approach, no threats, no force of any kind, just a simple reminder of what it is that AP as a company believes should be the proper flow of their limited new scope inventory. The only threat being: if you flip a new scope, it will most likely be your last chance at a new scope.


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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5335878 - 07/26/12 01:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Roland can kill flipping easily...NO WARRANTY or SERVICE SUPPORT for a scope flipped new in the box. It would kill the value immediately. Simple.




Yup...if AP really wanted to discourage flipping, as they have said, then there are things they could do that would have more effect than simply "asking" people not to do it. I personally don't see the purpose in requesting people not to do this when more can be done (although it certainly has marketing benefit as it gets people talking more and therefore gets the word out about AP more to those who might not know....RC is IMO quite a shrewd marketer anyway). Interestingly, making the request could actually encourage it more as people hate being told what to do. But this topic is really nothing more than intellectual musings. Bottom line is that people can do whatever they wish with no repercussions, ethical, unethical, or indifferently, as long as it is within the bounds of the law. And we see this every day unfortunately.




No one here described a better solution.


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Cyclop_si
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: blueman]
      #5335984 - 07/26/12 03:40 AM

Quote:

Once an item is sold, whatever it is, it is the sole property of that owner and he is welcome to do anything he wishes with the item. Why should any manufacturer put a limit on any owner to tell them what to do with it once they purchase it?
Should this be the case with other things, cars, gold or silver?




I have mountain bicycle, Connondale (there is "Handmade in USA" logo on the frame). By our (EU) law, shop/dealer should give one year warranty on product, which is transferable to second owner of the item is sold on used market.
But besides this, Cannondale also gives life time warranty on a bike frame for, and only for, first buyer of a bike. When my frame broke after several years of usage, I take it to local Cannondale dealer, they checked my name if I am first user of the bike, and replace the frame with new one, without further question asked. So yes, there is business practice, which honor (only) first buyer of the item.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5336067 - 07/26/12 06:49 AM

Quote:

"RC is IMO quite a shrewd marketer anyway"
Nah, we all know Marj is the business brains of that operation.

Joe




Joe:

There is a great story on Astromart that I have been unable to find.

Roland was at at an astro swap meet and saw something he really wanted and made a deal to swap one a new A-P refractor for it. Marj nixed the deal, she said A-P wasn't his to trade away... he wasn't on the list.

I personally think it's a reasonable solution to ask people not to flip scopes. If someone is dead set they are going to flip it, you can't stop them... But you can ask them.

Jon


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5336184 - 07/26/12 08:46 AM

I remember that post Jon. I think you're right. IMO, Astro Physics sends the message about flipping as a reminder of their commitment to quality and fair play. They know they can't control it, however want folks to consider their (A-P) position. They have always service anything that says A-P and aren't going to stop. Besides, how many A-P products actually need warranty service..

The team at A-P are principled with a focus on fairness, honesty and quality. I believe the use the lists because they were the best they could think of. TBH, it's their business and they are entitled to do anything they please. As far as asking folks to pass if they were going to use the instrument, I can't think of another hobby or interest where it would be more likely the someone actually would. Folks in this are some of the nicest, most honest around, IMO.

Joe


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Starhawk
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5336280 - 07/26/12 09:58 AM

Voiding support for people buying from a flipper isn't right- they are the sincere astronomer in the situation. And they don't get re-flipped. Anyone who would wait 9 years + on a list, get the scope and immediately resell it to get 15% is already getting what they deserve; missing out for very little money made on an opportunity they will see once and only once.

Far more of the NIB resales seem to happen at-cost, and the higher than $6000 price is because all the basic accessories are included. The real problem they seem to have is they've changed and the passage of time since they got on the list has seen their life circumstances change, and the arrival no longer means for them what they hoped.

-Rich


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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5336290 - 07/26/12 10:07 AM

Quote:

Voiding support for people buying from a flipper isn't right- they are the sincere astronomer in the situation. And they don't get re-flipped. Anyone who would wait 9 years + on a list, get the scope and immediately resell it to get 15% is already getting what they deserve; missing out for very little money made on an opportunity they will see once and only once.

Far more of the NIB resales seem to happen at-cost, and the higher than $6000 price is because all the basic accessories are included. The real problem they seem to have is they've changed and the passage of time since they got on the list has seen their life circumstances change, and the arrival no longer means for them what they hoped.

-Rich




Roland dropped the price of the 175 f/8 to $6K?


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Starhawk
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: JJK]
      #5336333 - 07/26/12 10:37 AM

No- I'm referring to AP130s which have been in recent production and appeared on the other site. We have yet to see an AP175 show up there.

-Rich


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EddWen
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: t.r.]
      #5336380 - 07/26/12 11:14 AM

I don't think Roland would ever do that. He is proud of the scopes he has built. And the mounts also.

I bought my 155 EDF, Traveler, AP900 and AP1200 on the used market, from users and not flippers. When I had questions/concerns about the gear, I got helpful, knowledgeable and friendly advice from A-P by phone and email as if I was the original buyer holding a warranty.

Good folks!

Quote:

Roland can kill flipping easily...NO WARRANTY or SERVICE SUPPORT for a scope flipped new in the box. It would kill the value immediately. Simple.




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blueman
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Cyclop_si]
      #5336635 - 07/26/12 01:28 PM

David,
That is warranty specific, but they do not tell you what you can do with the bike after you buy it, like sell it for what ever price you wish.
Blueman
Quote:

Quote:

Once an item is sold, whatever it is, it is the sole property of that owner and he is welcome to do anything he wishes with the item. Why should any manufacturer put a limit on any owner to tell them what to do with it once they purchase it?
Should this be the case with other things, cars, gold or silver?




I have mountain bicycle, Connondale (there is "Handmade in USA" logo on the frame). By our (EU) law, shop/dealer should give one year warranty on product, which is transferable to second owner of the item is sold on used market.
But besides this, Cannondale also gives life time warranty on a bike frame for, and only for, first buyer of a bike. When my frame broke after several years of usage, I take it to local Cannondale dealer, they checked my name if I am first user of the bike, and replace the frame with new one, without further question asked. So yes, there is business practice, which honor (only) first buyer of the item.




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johnnyha
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: blueman]
      #5336852 - 07/26/12 03:12 PM

Quote:

David,
That is warranty specific, but they do not tell you what you can do with the bike after you buy it, like sell it for what ever price you wish.
Blueman




No but clearly this makes finding a buyer more difficult for a flipper. Why should anyone pay more AND lose the lifetime warranty?


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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5337012 - 07/26/12 05:02 PM

Hey, I have seen several inquiries for 175's already on the other site. Aren't
those " sincere astronomers" at least guilty of solicitation. Takes two to tango, you know.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: blueman]
      #5337016 - 07/26/12 05:04 PM

Quote:

David,
That is warranty specific, but they do not tell you what you can do with the bike after you buy it, like sell it for what ever price you wish.
Blueman




Also, the warranty may not be transferable.

I like the warranty on the better quality Eagle Optics binoculars. No paper work, the warranty goes with the binoculars, it doesn't matter who owns them. It's a lifetime no fault, you bust 'em, they fix em.

Jon


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johnnyha
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5337515 - 07/26/12 10:22 PM

I see an AP 180 EDF f7 just went up for auction. With no buyers at the $36K asking price, it looks like it's been put on auction with a reduced reserve. Says original owner, definitely not being flipped!

New price in 1997 was $8200 with a field corrector.


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5337586 - 07/26/12 11:10 PM

He's been trying to sell it for some time now. These scopes were unique in the past and carried a premium because of it. Today, there are options. While they are still deserving of a collectors premium, he's NOT getting 35k for it. IMO, it's good for about 27-28k... If fact, if he puts a buy it now on it tonight for that, I'll take it.

Joe


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5337959 - 07/27/12 07:46 AM

Quote:

While they are still deserving of a collectors premium, he's NOT getting 35k for it. IMO, it's good for about 27-28k... If fact, if he puts a buy it now on it tonight for that, I'll take it.





Is that a hint?

Jon


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5337968 - 07/27/12 07:57 AM

I just purchased an AP180EDT F/9.. I wouldn't however mind having the F/7.

I see it's climbed to 16+ overnight. Lets see where it takes us.

Joe


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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5337994 - 07/27/12 08:26 AM

Quote:

He's been trying to sell it for some time now. These scopes were unique in the past and carried a premium because of it. Today, there are options. While they are still deserving of a collectors premium, he's NOT getting 35k for it. IMO, it's good for about 27-28k... If fact, if he puts a buy it now on it tonight for that, I'll take it.

Joe




I think the economy is a big part of it. Before the recession one sold for $36,600. It's definitely a buyer's market.


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5337998 - 07/27/12 08:32 AM

I agree Gus, but he is trying to sell it now and may have to consider such. This new auction with, as he states "a much lower reserve" may be that moment of clarity. Like I said, a 28k Buy It Now, and I'm on it like a dung beetle on a road apple.

Best, Joe


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vahe
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5338011 - 07/27/12 08:42 AM

Quote:

I just purchased an AP180EDT F/9.. I wouldn't however mind having the F/7.
I see it's climbed to 16+ overnight. Lets see where it takes us.




I have a 155EDT F/9, it just turned 20 years young and counting!

On the subject of 180 f/7 vs 180 f/9, the faster version was the undisputed king up until the arrival of 175, but the new one pushed it back a notch in desirability factor as well as its actual market value, such is life in refractorland.
If the speed was the reason for the desirability of 180 f/7, that theory does not seem told water as AP scopes have started to become progressively slower with the introduction of a new model, we had 155 f/7 for a long time, then that one was replaced with a slower 160 f/7.5 and even slower 175 f/8, the trend seems to be slower and slower refractors, good news for those who prefer visual to CCD.

Vahe


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MrGrytt
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: vahe]
      #5338211 - 07/27/12 10:50 AM

Quote:


I have a 155EDT F/9, it just turned 20 years young and counting!

On the subject of 180 f/7 vs 180 f/9, the faster version was the undisputed king up until the arrival of 175, but the new one pushed it back a notch in desirability factor as well as its actual market value, such is life in refractorland.
If the speed was the reason for the desirability of 180 f/7, that theory does not seem told water as AP scopes have started to become progressively slower with the introduction of a new model, we had 155 f/7 for a long time, then that one was replaced with a slower 160 f/7.5 and even slower 175 f/8, the trend seems to be slower and slower refractors, good news for those who prefer visual to CCD.

Vahe




I have always believed that Roland going to air spacing and slowing the 160 down to f/7.5 was simply his quest for optical perfection and the best correction possible. The same holds true for the 175. Just my opinion of course.

Now we need a 'buy one get one free' sale.

Harvey


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: MrGrytt]
      #5338224 - 07/27/12 10:55 AM

"Now we need a 'buy one get one free' sale."

Yes Harvey, The line is forming up - right behind me.


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Rich N
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5338225 - 07/27/12 10:56 AM

"I see an AP 180 EDF f7 just went up for auction. With no buyers at the $36K asking price, it looks like it's been put on auction with a reduced reserve. Says original owner, definitely not being flipped!"

"New price in 1997 was $8200 with a field corrector."
--------------------------------------------------------

If this fellow is the original owner then he likely bought it around 1994.

I don't think any of the AP 180 F/7s were made as late as 1997.

Rich


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: vahe]
      #5338231 - 07/27/12 11:01 AM

"On the subject of 180 f/7 vs 180 f/9, the faster version was the undisputed king"

Some do feel visually, the f/9 is superior...but only because the F/7 was made to focus more on photography. There has to be a give to every take. I've not done a direct comparison, but have had the comment made by several who have. It makes sense, however I think we'd be splitting hairs. Part of the other reason for the premium on the F/7 is that there were not nearly as many made. Once again, that is only hearsay as only Roland knows..

Best, Joe


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Rich N]
      #5338234 - 07/27/12 11:02 AM

I thought I read 1997 in one of the ads....Joe

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MrGrytt
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5338371 - 07/27/12 12:14 PM

Quote:

"Now we need a 'buy one get one free' sale."

Yes Harvey, The line is forming up - right behind me.




Don't need to get in line. Already have one coming. Just wish it was two of them.

Harvey


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johnnyha
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Rich N]
      #5338383 - 07/27/12 12:19 PM

Quote:

"I see an AP 180 EDF f7 just went up for auction. With no buyers at the $36K asking price, it looks like it's been put on auction with a reduced reserve. Says original owner, definitely not being flipped!"

"New price in 1997 was $8200 with a field corrector."
--------------------------------------------------------

If this fellow is the original owner then he likely bought it around 1994.




Well if he did thats a pretty big fib...

"I am the original owner, having received the scope during the very last part of the run in 1997."


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EddWen
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5338403 - 07/27/12 12:30 PM



The economy may be a part of it, but more importantly, there are a limited number of individuals that are in the market for high-end scopes, at a point in time, regardless the state of the economy.

You only need one buyer. Sometimes he/she is just not there.

For example, earlier this year I put my A-P 155EDF (4" focuser with 4" field flattener) up for auction.

A few weeks earlier, a 155EDFS (2.7" focuser, no field flattener) sold for more than my reserve price in 24 hours.

Mine didn't sell. My conclusion? There was one person in the market and jumped on the earlier offer. When I offered mine, no one was looking for one.






I think the economy is a big part of it. Before the recession one sold for $36,600. It's definitely a buyer's market.




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Rich N
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5338454 - 07/27/12 01:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"I see an AP 180 EDF f7 just went up for auction. With no buyers at the $36K asking price, it looks like it's been put on auction with a reduced reserve. Says original owner, definitely not being flipped!"

"New price in 1997 was $8200 with a field corrector."
--------------------------------------------------------

If this fellow is the original owner then he likely bought it around 1994.




Well if he did thats a pretty big fib...

"I am the original owner, having received the scope during the very last part of the run in 1997."




IIRC, around 1994 or 1995 I'd asked AP about getting a 180 f/7 and my impression was that they were talking me out of it, as if they were stopping production.

Again, if I'm remembering correctly I heard AP was have a run of 180 f/8 in 1996 and I was lucky enough to have one ship in Nov 1996.

Maybe AP was slow in producing the last of the 180 f/7s and one shipped in 1997?

Rich


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Alan French
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Rich N]
      #5338707 - 07/27/12 04:16 PM

I have an AP catalog I picked up at Winter Star Party in 1996. It includes an insert for the 180mm f/7, so it is quite reasonable that someone could have received this scope in 1997.

Clear skies, Alan


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BillP
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Alan French]
      #5338733 - 07/27/12 04:42 PM

Is it also reasonable for this scope's fair market price to go from 8k to 36k in the space of 5 years

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Alan French
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5338753 - 07/27/12 04:58 PM

I don't know why this question keeps cropping up. Reasonable? Not to me, but obviously it is reasonable to some folks. Anything deemed rare and collectable can fetch a premium, and clearly AP scopes are in this niche in the view of some folks. Do a Google search on "record auctions" and see what turns up. It is amazing what some people are willing to pay for rare, unusual items. Some probably consider rare collectables a method of investing, others simply like particular things, or enjoy bragging rights (an odd thing, in my view).

I think evolution has given us all "pack rat" genes - we accumulate things because we used to need to hoard for the bad times.

Clear skies, Alan


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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5338775 - 07/27/12 05:17 PM

Quote:

Is it also reasonable for this scope's fair market price to go from 8k to 36k in the space of 5 years




It's neither reasonable nor unreasonable; it's simply worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Rare items command high prices, given that there are only a dozen or so of these scopes in the world the price jump isn't unexpected.


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BillP
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Alan French]
      #5338787 - 07/27/12 05:25 PM

I didn't say just reasonable, but qualified it as a fair market price. So not wanting to get into arguments of what one person might pay for it. So in the general market for Ap goods, it is "typical" for a scope to appreciate 4x in 5 years? I don;t know how many 180's AP made, but if more than one are the others going for 36k when they are being advertised?? That's all I'm asking at the moment. Is this a typical, normal, common, average (i.e., reasonable) used cost for this scope in the marketplace?

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johnnyha
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5338800 - 07/27/12 05:35 PM

This is the fabled "NASA" glass right, maybe that fetches a premium?

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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5338811 - 07/27/12 05:43 PM

Quote:

I didn't say just reasonable, but qualified it as a fair market price. So not wanting to get into arguments of what one person might pay for it. So in the general market for Ap goods, it is "typical" for a scope to appreciate 4x in 5 years? I don;t know how many 180's AP made, but if more than one are the others going for 36k when they are being advertised?? That's all I'm asking at the moment. Is this a typical, normal, common, average (i.e., reasonable) used cost for this scope in the marketplace?




One sold before the recession for $36,600 but given that the one on Amart didn't sell with an asking price of $35,000 suggests that the going rate is somewhat less in this buyers market. The scopes that were produced in very small numbers appreciated like crazy, the f5 Stowaway sold for $2400 new, a few went for $10K used when the economy was booming. The 206 f7.7 EDF was $12,500 new, used some have sold in the $60,000's, Herb York was asking $100,000 for one IIRC, not sure if it sold for that figure or not. Models produced in higher numbers did not appreciate as much. They produced about two dozen 10" Maks, original price was $9,800, jumped to $10,900 for the last few scopes (cost to produce was higher than they anticipated, coatings alone were nearly $2,000 per scope) and they have gone for $20-30K.

Anyone know how many 175's are being made?


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Malabargold
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5338855 - 07/27/12 06:18 PM

Problem is that greenbacks are neither rare, nor collectible

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Rich N
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5338863 - 07/27/12 06:25 PM

Hi Bill,

Any idea how many of the AP 175s will ship?

Thanks,
Rich


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JJK
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: MrGrytt]
      #5338868 - 07/27/12 06:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"Now we need a 'buy one get one free' sale."

Yes Harvey, The line is forming up - right behind me.




Don't need to get in line. Already have one coming. Just wish it was two of them.

Harvey




You didn't ask for a second one? Am I the only one who thinks around here?


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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Rich N]
      #5338870 - 07/27/12 06:33 PM

Rich, you have an AP A180 f/8 from the mid 1990s?


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

"I see an AP 180 EDF f7 just went up for auction. With no buyers at the $36K asking price, it looks like it's been put on auction with a reduced reserve. Says original owner, definitely not being flipped!"

"New price in 1997 was $8200 with a field corrector."
--------------------------------------------------------

If this fellow is the original owner then he likely bought it around 1994.




Well if he did thats a pretty big fib...

"I am the original owner, having received the scope during the very last part of the run in 1997."




IIRC, around 1994 or 1995 I'd asked AP about getting a 180 f/7 and my impression was that they were talking me out of it, as if they were stopping production.

Again, if I'm remembering correctly I heard AP was have a run of 180 f/8 in 1996 and I was lucky enough to have one ship in Nov 1996.

Maybe AP was slow in producing the last of the 180 f/7s and one shipped in 1997?

Rich




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JJK
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Alan French]
      #5338873 - 07/27/12 06:35 PM

There's clearly an "acquire AP" gene. Some of us have it on multiple chromosomes.

Quote:

I don't know why this question keeps cropping up. Reasonable? Not to me, but obviously it is reasonable to some folks. Anything deemed rare and collectable can fetch a premium, and clearly AP scopes are in this niche in the view of some folks. Do a Google search on "record auctions" and see what turns up. It is amazing what some people are willing to pay for rare, unusual items. Some probably consider rare collectables a method of investing, others simply like particular things, or enjoy bragging rights (an odd thing, in my view).

I think evolution has given us all "pack rat" genes - we accumulate things because we used to need to hoard for the bad times.

Clear skies, Alan




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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5338882 - 07/27/12 06:41 PM

Bill, your question is surely rhetorical. Such a price increase is atypical for telescopes in general. For the scope in question, it is by definition precisely what happened in the marketplace.

As someone once said, and Tiger Woods so poignantly repeated, "It is what it is".


Quote:

I didn't say just reasonable, but qualified it as a fair market price. So not wanting to get into arguments of what one person might pay for it. So in the general market for Ap goods, it is "typical" for a scope to appreciate 4x in 5 years? I don;t know how many 180's AP made, but if more than one are the others going for 36k when they are being advertised?? That's all I'm asking at the moment. Is this a typical, normal, common, average (i.e., reasonable) used cost for this scope in the marketplace?




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Peter Natscher
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: JJK]
      #5339039 - 07/27/12 08:25 PM

I thought the 180 EDT's were F/9. Rich has a 180 EDT. I remember when he first got it. I've looked through it and it's superb!

Quote:

Rich, you have an AP A180 f/8 from the mid 1990s?


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

"I see an AP 180 EDF f7 just went up for auction. With no buyers at the $36K asking price, it looks like it's been put on auction with a reduced reserve. Says original owner, definitely not being flipped!"

"New price in 1997 was $8200 with a field corrector."
--------------------------------------------------------

If this fellow is the original owner then he likely bought it around 1994.




Well if he did thats a pretty big fib...

"I am the original owner, having received the scope during the very last part of the run in 1997."




IIRC, around 1994 or 1995 I'd asked AP about getting a 180 f/7 and my impression was that they were talking me out of it, as if they were stopping production.

Again, if I'm remembering correctly I heard AP was have a run of 180 f/8 in 1996 and I was lucky enough to have one ship in Nov 1996.

Maybe AP was slow in producing the last of the 180 f/7s and one shipped in 1997?

Rich







Edited by Peter Natscher (07/27/12 08:26 PM)


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BillP
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: BillP]
      #5339892 - 07/28/12 11:37 AM

Quote:

So in the general market for Ap goods, it is "typical" for a scope to appreciate 4x in 5 years?




FYI...I was practicing the "new math" they taught me in HS. I've been informed that it's actually 15 years and not 5 years when you subtract 2012-1997


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Rich N
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: JJK]
      #5343239 - 07/30/12 11:46 AM

Quote:

Rich, you have an AP A180 f/8 from the mid 1990s?


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

"I see an AP 180 EDF f7 just went up for auction. With no buyers at the $36K asking price, it looks like it's been put on auction with a reduced reserve. Says original owner, definitely not being flipped!"

"New price in 1997 was $8200 with a field corrector."
--------------------------------------------------------

If this fellow is the original owner then he likely bought it around 1994.




Well if he did thats a pretty big fib...

"I am the original owner, having received the scope during the very last part of the run in 1997."




IIRC, around 1994 or 1995 I'd asked AP about getting a 180 f/7 and my impression was that they were talking me out of it, as if they were stopping production.

Again, if I'm remembering correctly I heard AP was have a run of 180 f/8 in 1996 and I was lucky enough to have one ship in Nov 1996.

Maybe AP was slow in producing the last of the 180 f/7s and one shipped in 1997?

Rich







I have a 180 f/9 from the mid '90s.

Rich


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Rich N
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5343269 - 07/30/12 12:01 PM


Peter's AP 10" Mak knocked my socks off. Absolutely outstanding.

Rich

Quote:

I thought the 180 EDT's were F/9. Rich has a 180 EDT. I remember when he first got it. I've looked through it and it's superb!

Quote:

Rich, you have an AP A180 f/8 from the mid 1990s?


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

"I see an AP 180 EDF f7 just went up for auction. With no buyers at the $36K asking price, it looks like it's been put on auction with a reduced reserve. Says original owner, definitely not being flipped!"

"New price in 1997 was $8200 with a field corrector."
--------------------------------------------------------

If this fellow is the original owner then he likely bought it around 1994.




Well if he did thats a pretty big fib...

"I am the original owner, having received the scope during the very last part of the run in 1997."




IIRC, around 1994 or 1995 I'd asked AP about getting a 180 f/7 and my impression was that they were talking me out of it, as if they were stopping production.

Again, if I'm remembering correctly I heard AP was have a run of 180 f/8 in 1996 and I was lucky enough to have one ship in Nov 1996.

Maybe AP was slow in producing the last of the 180 f/7s and one shipped in 1997?

Rich










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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5346951 - 08/01/12 12:47 PM

Quote:

I have one coming by the end of July!




If you don't mind my asking, when were you notified? Trying to get a time frame for delivery, my notification came end of June but I didn't confirm til mid July.


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Malabargold
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Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5347498 - 08/01/12 06:44 PM

For what its worth, my lead time was approximately 6 weeks.

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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5348162 - 08/02/12 04:36 AM

Quote:

For what its worth, my lead time was approximately 6 weeks.




Thanks. You already have your scope?


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Malabargold
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Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5348243 - 08/02/12 07:07 AM

No shipping notification yet.

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MrGrytt
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Reged: 07/28/05

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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5348313 - 08/02/12 08:21 AM

I was notified mid July and waited until my deadline was almost up before I decided to get it. When I called on the 25th they said it would be ready in September. They also mentioned that none of them that were supposed to ship in July had shipped yet so it might be longer. I told them I was fine with that and they could even move me back further on the list for shipping if they wanted. I was not in a hurry for it. Then they moved me back to November-December. Didn't mention which year.

Harvey


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: MrGrytt]
      #5348337 - 08/02/12 08:42 AM

Your more patient than I sir. Then again, what's 2 months in a 20 year wait. In fact, given the way time is speeding up as I get older.......

Joe


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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: MrGrytt]
      #5348356 - 08/02/12 09:00 AM

Quote:

I was not in a hurry for it. Then they moved me back to November-December. Didn't mention which year.

Harvey






I've found it helpful to add a couple of months to the estimate, seems to work out well.


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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5348382 - 08/02/12 09:23 AM

Joe,

I see the auction for the 180 f7 has stalled at the price of the new 175. Good luck! BTW, for those who don't know John Gleason he's a very accomplished astrophotographer. Here are images taken with an AP 180 f7, AP Traveler, AP 130 EDF, and AP 155 EDF, along with a Tak FSQ and some nice Nikon lenses.

Celestial Images


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Peter Natscher
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5348446 - 08/02/12 10:11 AM

I emailed A-P yesterday about the scheduled July delivery of my 175EDF and Alice replied that they would get back to me when they knew more. I think they're behind schedule. I was notified by email and letter in mid-June.

John Gleason is our local Bay Area astro-photographer going back to the 70's from the film days. Yes, he's probably one of the most accomplished AP's in this country. I meet up with him occasionally while I observe. I know he already has a A-P 180EDF from the 1990's, so I'm wondering why he's bidding on this current one? To make bino's? He's not an observer.

Quote:

Joe,

I see the auction for the 180 f7 has stalled at the price of the new 175. Good luck! BTW, for those who don't know John Gleason he's a very accomplished astrophotographer. Here are images taken with an AP 180 f7, AP Traveler, AP 130 EDF, and AP 155 EDF, along with a Tak FSQ and some nice Nikon lenses.

Celestial Images




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gillmj24
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5348469 - 08/02/12 10:22 AM

Thrill bid? I might put one in too

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Peter Natscher
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Reged: 03/28/06

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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5348513 - 08/02/12 10:51 AM

Alice, of A-P, just replied to me about the fist 175EDF shipments:

Dear Peter,

Good news!

I've received an updated shipping schedule this morning and we will start shipping in a week or so.


Quote:

Quote:

I have one coming by the end of July!




If you don't mind my asking, when were you notified? Trying to get a time frame for delivery, my notification came end of June but I didn't confirm til mid July.




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johnnyha
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: gillmj24]
      #5348548 - 08/02/12 11:17 AM

My guess is the "substantially lower" reserve price is not met.

Ahh, and there is now an 8" AP on the block...


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5348571 - 08/02/12 11:33 AM

Quote:

Joe,

I see the auction for the 180 f7 has stalled at the price of the new 175. Good luck! BTW, for those who don't know John Gleason he's a very accomplished astrophotographer. Here are images taken with an AP 180 f7, AP Traveler, AP 130 EDF, and AP 155 EDF, along with a Tak FSQ and some nice Nikon lenses.

Celestial Images




Indeed John is talented. I have a 180EDT F/9 (which Richard Crisp and several others have also done great things with) and thought it might be nice to have the F7 as well.

Jim and I exchanged several emails. He thinks the economy, me - I think the 175 is the reason. Those with the money and inclination to spend it on such are going to wait and see if anyone jumps and sells a 175. If you can and are willing to spend 20K, you'll spend 40k just as quickly. I know I would. Were a 175 available tomorrow for 40K with a buy it now - I'd be on it like a dung beetle on a road apple. I used that recently didn't I...Oh well my mind is going so it's all new to me.

We'll see what happens tonight. I can't do much if there are no bidders. Jim seems comfortable waiting for his price if required. I don't blame him. New isn't always better, however in the case of the 175....IT IS INDEED BETTER.

Best, Joe


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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5348725 - 08/02/12 01:23 PM

One in the US and one in Australia?

Quote:

I emailed A-P yesterday about the scheduled July delivery of my 175EDF and Alice replied that they would get back to me when they knew more. I think they're behind schedule. I was notified by email and letter in mid-June.

John Gleason is our local Bay Area astro-photographer going back to the 70's from the film days. Yes, he's probably one of the most accomplished AP's in this country. I meet up with him occasionally while I observe. I know he already has a A-P 180EDF from the 1990's, so I'm wondering why he's bidding on this current one? To make bino's? He's not an observer.

Quote:

Joe,

I see the auction for the 180 f7 has stalled at the price of the new 175. Good luck! BTW, for those who don't know John Gleason he's a very accomplished astrophotographer. Here are images taken with an AP 180 f7, AP Traveler, AP 130 EDF, and AP 155 EDF, along with a Tak FSQ and some nice Nikon lenses.

Celestial Images







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Starhawk
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5350085 - 08/03/12 11:58 AM

Ok, so end of July came... Anyone have an AP175?

-Rich


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EddWen
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/26/08

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5350230 - 08/03/12 01:43 PM

Roland is still playing with them.

See his recent images on Amart.


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Dwight56
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: EddWen]
      #5350284 - 08/03/12 02:16 PM

I'm supposed to be getting my AP175 in September after I get back from Europe

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johnnyha
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Dwight56]
      #5350287 - 08/03/12 02:17 PM

What happened to the AP180 f7 on auction?

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Kent10
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5350291 - 08/03/12 02:21 PM

http://www.astromart.com/auctions/details.asp?auction_id=7088

$20,100.00 Christopher Ford Reserve not met


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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Kent10]
      #5350305 - 08/03/12 02:32 PM Attachment (95 downloads)

Wonder how that 206 EDF will do. I don't think I'd sell either the 206 or the 180 f7 in this economy, better to wait if possible until the economy eventually rebounds and it is no longer such a buyer's market.

The 206 is a real beast in person, takes two people to mount it safely. Here's a pic of me drooling over a 206 at Company 7, I'm 6'2" for size perspective.


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5350375 - 08/03/12 03:20 PM

Gus, IMO the seller was not looking to sell based on current market conditions. That is his right, however unrealistic. I believe the instrument is worth 28-29 today. Not just because of the economy. In the past there were not alternatives to the AP180EDF. Today there is the TEC180FL, that is in production as well as the AP175EDF. These "and" the economy change things a bit. Well, about 7000 bits, IMO.

Seems Jim doesn't need the money and can afford to wait. I think that is prudent. I saw no point to becoming further vested in an auction the was never going to hit it's reserve. While I did ask for the reserve (doesn't need to be a secret to meet its objective) I was told no - his right.

One other point. Jim's repeated listings and this "unrealistic" auction are not doing the scope any favors. In fact, they are devaluing it.

IMO, don't list something:

You are not willing to sell after assessing it's actual value in the current market.

It is ridicules to assume that AP scope are:

1) Never going to reach a celling.
2) Aren't at least somewhat affected by other factors.

While they have show "better" staying power, they are not invincible. I believe he was just continuing to test the market. I hope he got his answer, it was certainly costly.

Joe


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mark8888
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5350380 - 08/03/12 03:28 PM

Quote:

The 206 is a real beast in person




You're not kidding!
Awesome picture.


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johnnyha
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5350428 - 08/03/12 04:07 PM

Hmm, not surprised it didn't sell. If there is not a single person in the world that is willing to pay $36K then it's not worth $36K or probably anywhere near it. This A-P 180 f7 scope cost the seller $8300 fifteen years ago. $36,000 would be nice yeh but so would the $20,100 he was actually offered.

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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5350511 - 08/03/12 04:52 PM

He turned down 26,100 in February.

http://www.astromart.com/auctions/details.asp?auction_id=6778

Like I said, if it's worth more in the closet to him - god bless em. Now an AP175EDF, that would drive an interesting auction.

Joe

Edited by jmiele (08/03/12 04:52 PM)


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Bryguy
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5350855 - 08/03/12 08:59 PM

Quote:

Wonder how that 206 EDF will do. I don't think I'd sell either the 206 or the 180 f7 in this economy, better to wait if possible until the economy eventually rebounds and it is no longer such a buyer's market.

The 206 is a real beast in person, takes two people to mount it safely. Here's a pic of me drooling over a 206 at Company 7, I'm 6'2" for size perspective.




I can just here Marty now yelling, "get your @#$% dirty hands off my scope!"


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Bryguy]
      #5350885 - 08/03/12 09:24 PM

lol... sounds about right...

Joe


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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Bryguy]
      #5351339 - 08/04/12 08:21 AM Attachment (82 downloads)

I've lovingly caressed that scope, Marty understands. I remember when one of Company 7's customers came in and placed a red satin pillow with a red rose on top of it at the base of the 206's mount. Paying homage to the refractor gods.

Not that they aren't protective. I remember one International Astronomy day I brought my 10" Mak up to C7 and set it up on display for the people coming into the shop. Marty had someone guarding the Mak so nobody could put their fingers on the glass. Good folks at C7! Here's a pic from Marty's wedding:


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Jeff B
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5351422 - 08/04/12 09:53 AM

Great story and great shot.

Why am I not surprised by Roland's tie?

Jeff


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jeff B]
      #5351426 - 08/04/12 09:58 AM

Indeed, and he looks ready to cut a rug.

Joe


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Jeff B]
      #5351428 - 08/04/12 09:58 AM

Indeed, and he looks ready to cut a rug.

Joe


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Scott99
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5351466 - 08/04/12 10:32 AM

this auction shows the "2 worlds" of refractor buyers. Collectors and Users.

Users know they can call TEC right now and order a brand new 180 f/7 for around $20K. 99% Strehl, focuser of your choice, lightweight CNC aluminum tube. Why pay a dollar more for a used TEC or an AP from 20 years ago? Very few people are willing, most of us want a brand new scope.

Which brings us to the "very few" - collectors. They no longer care about a 90's AP 180mm, the apple of their eye is the "new" 175. As a User I'd rather not give up 5mm, but for collectors that doesn't mean anything, they've already been paying the TEC180 price for used AP 160's for years.

I suspect for for most Users the difference between TEC and AP scopes is minimal. From my own experience, the extra 5mm in the TEC110 is worth way more than any difference between the Traveler, yet people are still paying the price of a brand new TEC110 for 15-year-old Travelers. I don't get it.

Collectors are paying $4,500 and up for 20-year-old Stowaways, that is the hardest to understand. The TEC110 is a no-brainer in comparison. If I had a Stowaway I would sell it immediately and buy a TEC110.


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vahe
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5351490 - 08/04/12 10:44 AM

Quote:

Here's a pic of me drooling over a 206 at Company 7, I'm 6'2" for size perspective.





Just curious, is the C7 AP206 a permanent floor display model or it is occasionally used for its intended purpose?

Vahe


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott99]
      #5351498 - 08/04/12 10:49 AM

As I've said before, people "DO" because they "CAN".... Not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. As to users and collectors. I think it's possible to be both.

Now for the zinger.... I've TEC 180, Tak 150, AP180....AP160...on and on..bottom line...is this.. While respectable, even awesome. A Tak and a TEC ain't no AP. And anyone who has looked through them all for any length of time can tell you that. AP scope are no expensive because they are pretty, or the paint is better....it's because they're better.. You don't have to like it, that's just how it is. This of corse, represents only one mans opinion. As viewed however, through these rose colored glasses......

Joe

Edited by jmiele (08/05/12 04:44 PM)


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5351500 - 08/04/12 10:50 AM Attachment (61 downloads)

Another..

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JJK
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott99]
      #5351513 - 08/04/12 11:00 AM

Quote:

this auction shows the "2 worlds" of refractor buyers. Collectors and Users.

Users know they can call TEC right now and order a brand new 180 f/7 for around $20K. 99% Strehl, focuser of your choice, lightweight CNC aluminum tube. Why pay a dollar more for a used TEC or an AP from 20 years ago? Very few people are willing, most of us want a brand new scope.

Which brings us to the "very few" - collectors. They no longer care about a 90's AP 180mm, the apple of their eye is the "new" 175. As a User I'd rather not give up 5mm, but for collectors that doesn't mean anything, they've already been paying the TEC180 price for used AP 160's for years.

I suspect for for most Users the difference between TEC and AP scopes is minimal. From my own experience, the extra 5mm in the TEC110 is worth way more than any difference between the Traveler, yet people are still paying the price of a brand new TEC110 for 15-year-old Travelers. I don't get it.

Collectors are paying $4,500 and up for 20-year-old Stowaways, that is the hardest to understand. The TEC110 is a no-brainer in comparison. If I had a Stowaway I would sell it immediately and buy a TEC110.





I can't tell you how much any scope, let alone AP's, should fetch on the used market. However, years ago, I paid dearly for an AP92 f/4.9 StowAway, and don't regret it one bit. It's a wonderful portable instrument, works well for visual work of the usual suspects (the Moon, Sun, Jupiterthe brighter DSOs, rich wide star fields, etc. Last Winter I was pleasantly surprised to learn that it's a nice wide field imager. This would be one of the last scopes to leave my home.


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MrGrytt
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 07/28/05

Loc: Upstate Cuomostan
Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5351821 - 08/04/12 02:46 PM

Quote:

As I've said before, people "DO" because they "CAN".... Not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. As to users and collectors. I think it's possible to be both.

Now for the zinger.... I've TEC 180, Tak 150, AP180....AP160...on and on..bottom line...is this.. While respectable, even awesome. A Tak and a TEC ain't no AP. And anyone who has looked through them all for any length of time can tell you that. AP scope are no expensive because they are pretty, or the paint is better....it's because they're better.. You don't have to like it, that's just how it is. This of corse, represents only one mans opinion. As viewed however, through these rose colored glasses......

Joe




Now you need to get your hands on a TMB/LZOS 175 f/8 and see if your opinion stays the same. They're cheap now that the Euro has dropped. Only $18K plus import fees.

Harvey


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: MrGrytt]
      #5351931 - 08/04/12 04:06 PM

I almost had one (TMB175) several years ago but hesitated and lost out. Any concerns IYO with the older original being superior to current production? Or do folks see them as equivalent?

One note, it was pointed out to me that my post (as you quoted) makes it appear I still have the TEC180. I just recently passed that on to someone else. I had to decide between the AP180EDT and the TEC180FL. I opted for the AP.

Also, re-reading my post it seems a bit harsh (not unusual more me ) and overly critical of the other makers. I don't intend to be an AP snob, but feel that, IME AP is able to eek out every last bit of perfection possible. That is the reason they carry a premium (not economy proof) over other makers. This is not to say the TEC/Tak et al aren't also super instruments.

There are many painters, however only one Picasso. Some appreciate his work and will pay more to have it, while others don't get it. Is it foolish to compare Rolando to Picasso.... idk, I paid a lot for my 180 so don't ask me.

Best, Joe


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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: vahe]
      #5351941 - 08/04/12 04:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Here's a pic of me drooling over a 206 at Company 7, I'm 6'2" for size perspective.





Just curious, is the C7 AP206 a permanent floor display model or it is occasionally used for its intended purpose?

Vahe




It gets used.


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MrGrytt
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 07/28/05

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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5352450 - 08/04/12 11:31 PM

Quote:

I almost had one (TMB175) several years ago but hesitated and lost out. Any concerns IYO with the older original being superior to current production? Or do folks see them as equivalent?





I personally prefer the original CNC tubes with the German focusers. Just too costly to make and too heavy for some people so they changed them. Many people thought changing them was a mistake.

Quote:


One note, it was pointed out to me that my post (as you quoted) makes it appear I still have the TEC180. I just recently passed that on to someone else. I had to decide between the AP180EDT and the TEC180FL. I opted for the AP.





I would have done the same thing. The AP 180EDT was my dream scope for a very long time.

Harvey


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Scott99
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5352891 - 08/05/12 10:55 AM

Quote:

Another..




that is an inviting picture - 180mm f/9 ready to cruise the Milky Way! I would prefer this over the current TEC 180 or AP 175mm for the longer focal ratio. Everyone has their favorite instrument for various reasons.

I think we're lucky to have companies like TEC and AP in the US, I wouldn't quibble over which is the "ultimate". It's possible to have an optical or mechanical problem with these scopes and to send it in for repair within a couple weeks, that is just not possible with Tak and APM from the US.

re: the AP stowaway, yes, it's the best ever in the 90-95mm range. I meant that if you're doing the Herschel 400 or something you'll be better off with the large TEC110 or Traveler for the same money. If you need the best scope at 94mm then I guess it's worth the high price.


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gillmj24
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott99]
      #5352914 - 08/05/12 11:09 AM

What's the minimum observatory for an 180 f9? I'm thinking at lest a 10' space.

Edited by gillmj24 (08/05/12 11:32 AM)


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: gillmj24]
      #5353043 - 08/05/12 12:17 PM

IMO Joe, If you can gain access to an instrument like an AP180EDT, and can afford it - you "make" the room.

Scott, Agreed we are lucky and yes we are splitting hairs when i comes to performance. However, the F9 is really unsurpassed in it's visual capabilities due to the longer FL....IMO at least.

Best, Joe


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Larry Geary
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5353235 - 08/05/12 02:14 PM

Marty married Marge?

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John M.
member


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Re: AP 175 new [Re: gillmj24]
      #5353253 - 08/05/12 02:29 PM

I've got a TEC 200ED (f/9) in an 8x8 Telestation. It can be tight in certain directions, but is definitely usable. The key might be that the deck that it's on is not oriented along the N-S/E-W axes...and that makes use of the diagonal of the enclosure a bit. John

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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Larry Geary]
      #5353305 - 08/05/12 02:56 PM

Quote:

Marty married Marge?




Here's Marty and Marlene:



Lots of dancing:



Roland dancing with Judy Nagler:



There were even judges (French judge on the right, my wife second from the left):



It was an especially interesting weekend for my wife and I. Hurricane Isabel roared directly over our house a few days before the wedding so we had no power, no potable water, no fuel, no telephone service, and no cell service. Neighbors helped chain saw the few remaining downed trees so we could get off our street to drive to the wedding. A couple of hours to our destination I called Marty and told him we were able to get out and would make it to the wedding, but we hadn't had a shower in a couple of days. We showered and changed clothes at his house just in time to make it to the wedding. When all the dancing and fun was nearing an end it was almost midnight and I didn't relish a four hour drive back to a house with no water or power, so I called 1800marriott to see if there was anything in the area. The guy told me because of the hurricane the hotels were all full but if I'd give him my cell number he'd call around and see if he could find a room. About ten minutes later he called and said they only room available in the entire area was at the Georgetown Ritz Carlton and that he had made the reservation for me. So off we went, navigation took us through one of the most dangerous areas of DC. On the way my wife asked me, "Why are those cars all lined up at the side of the road?" When I pointed out the hookers plying their wares among the cars she broke up, "Look at that one! Look at what that one is wearing! Stop, take their picture!" I figured in that area at 1:30 AM stopping to take pictures of a bunch of prostitutes was probably a bad idea so I declined. We had a great night's sleep, luxuriated in the shower and bath in the morning, and stuffed ourselves on the Ritz's amazing Sunday brunch, then took off for home. About halfway back just before we left the area that still had power I stopped at a gas/convenience store to gas up. A truck had just delivered bagged ice. The cashier announced they would sell the bags for $20 each but customers immediately bid it up to $100 per bag. I paid for my gas and rolled on home without ice.


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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5353351 - 08/05/12 03:27 PM

That's "situational inflation" for ya. $100 for a bag of ice or about 1mm of AP
aperture.


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Larry Geary
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5353522 - 08/05/12 05:24 PM

Quote:

A truck had just delivered bagged ice. The cashier announced they would sell the bags for $20 each but customers immediately bid it up to $100 per bag.




You should have placed your name on the notification list.


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Rich N
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5367162 - 08/13/12 07:28 PM

Hi Peter,

Any news about the 175mm actually shipping?

Thank you,
Rich
Snoring Cat Observatory


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Peter Natscher
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Rich N]
      #5367311 - 08/13/12 08:55 PM

Woo-Hoo!! My 175EDF just shipped from A-P today -- will arrive by Friday-pm via UPS. UPS notification says it's a 94 lbs. package. I better start weight lifting this week ‡()

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idealistic
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5367426 - 08/13/12 10:04 PM

Pics please! 94lbs? Do they ship it in an iron safe?

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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5367515 - 08/13/12 10:57 PM

Quote:

Woo-Hoo!! My 175EDF just shipped from A-P today -- will arrive by Friday-pm via UPS. UPS notification says it's a 94 lbs. package. I better start weight lifting this week ‡()




Wow gratz Peter. Some unboxing porn would be nice. Lots of pics.... Did you get a new set of the AP 8" rings? They are beautiful rings. Completely different from the rest of the rings in the line.

Joe


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Scott BeithAdministrator
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5367794 - 08/14/12 06:40 AM

Big congrats Peter!

and of course - pics please.


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Starhawk
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5368005 - 08/14/12 10:04 AM

Wow, and I thought it was amazing to be told my AP130 EDFGT was shipping after 9 years on the list!

I'm really curious about what this ships in. I hope it doesn't just have one little handle. Wheels would help.

I'll Congratulations on the foresight to get on that list!

-Rich

Quote:

Woo-Hoo!! My 175EDF just shipped from A-P today -- will arrive by Friday-pm via UPS. UPS notification says it's a 94 lbs. package. I better start weight lifting this week ‡()




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Peter Natscher
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Reged: 03/28/06

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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5368063 - 08/14/12 10:43 AM

Yup, I ordered the A-P 8" rings since this is my first 8" OD tube APO. The new 900GTO mount and ATS portable pier have been waiting for over 3 months. I can't believe this is happening with the 175. Only last May, I was talking to Yuri about placing an order for a TEC 180. All of a sudden, the 180EDT list appeared, long forgotten with all my 1990's telescope memories. Lessons learned: you never know what's coming up from your horizon.

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RodgerHouTex
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5368071 - 08/14/12 10:48 AM

Congratulations Peter. Yes we need pics.

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Scott99
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5368667 - 08/14/12 04:15 PM

Quote:

Pics please! 94lbs? Do they ship it in an iron safe?




I'd consider it a 94-pound spaceship! Congrats. Didn't take long after it was announced, I see that RC has finally learned not to say anything until the lenses are nearly done.


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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5374325 - 08/18/12 08:49 AM

Quote:

Woo-Hoo!! My 175EDF just shipped from A-P today -- will arrive by Friday-pm via UPS. UPS notification says it's a 94 lbs. package. I better start weight lifting this week ‡()




Well???????


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Starhawk
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5374536 - 08/18/12 11:35 AM

Considering the depth of new scope curse I encountered with the AP 130 EDFGT, I expect Peter is trying to outrun tornadoes.

-Rich


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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5374710 - 08/18/12 01:26 PM

LOL, or he's just passed out next to it. I would be.. Joe

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Starhawk
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5375014 - 08/18/12 05:49 PM

True, there's the whole, "I can't believe this is in my house." moment.

-Rich


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Peter Natscher
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5375211 - 08/18/12 09:22 PM Attachment (125 downloads)

Shipped! It was a late delivery -- arrived via UPS almost at dark, 8:30pm. I was getting concerned.

Edited by Peter Natscher (08/18/12 09:33 PM)


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coz
sage


Reged: 08/25/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5375215 - 08/18/12 09:25 PM

Congrats!

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Starhawk
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: coz]
      #5375231 - 08/18/12 09:42 PM

Wow! It's real!

-Rich


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Super08
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5375235 - 08/18/12 09:46 PM

Nice to see the box arrive in good condition.

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jmiele
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Super08]
      #5375272 - 08/18/12 10:33 PM

Looks to be in very good condition box wise. Congratulations!

Joe


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idealistic
scholastic sledgehammer
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5375319 - 08/18/12 11:09 PM

Brad Pitt from 'Seven': "Whats in the BOX? WHATS in the BOX???"

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johnnyha
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: idealistic]
      #5375370 - 08/19/12 12:04 AM

Best. Box. Ever.

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jmiele
Patron Saint?
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5375573 - 08/19/12 08:19 AM

Peter's like, "yeah, it came." "I'm going to bed, I'll check it out in the morning"....

I wouldn't have had the internal strength to take a picture before ripping that box open.


Joe


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t.r.
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5375732 - 08/19/12 10:28 AM

Yeah, showing a pic of the box...and then, NOTHING!?!?! Huge posting foul there Peter! Its in the rules!

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Scott99
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: t.r.]
      #5375736 - 08/19/12 10:31 AM

Quote:

Yeah, showing a pic of the box...and then, NOTHING!?!?! Huge posting foul there Peter! Its in the rules!




maybe he spent all night observing and collapsed into bed?

Congrats Peter, it must be a magnificent scope. I've been worshipping the presence of my AP 160 in the house for 7 years now. It does not have a single scratch anywhere on it and I believe I would cry if it did! The refinement level of this gen. of AP scopes is amazing.

I can barely imagine how nice this design would be scaled up to 7 inches. Enjoy!


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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

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Re: AP 175 new [Re: t.r.]
      #5376029 - 08/19/12 02:24 PM Attachment (112 downloads)

Here is a picture of my AP175EDF's *first light*! The large box has sat undisturbed in my garage in a continual cool environment not two miles from the Pacific Ocean. Upon opening the case lid for the first time, I smell the air from the AP shop back in Illinois, case foam, and new tube paint. On the edge of the front lens is clearly written: 175 EDF02. My adrenaline is rushing and I'm almost too afraid to lift it out of it case. Has Curosity landed in my garage?

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johnnyha
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5376035 - 08/19/12 02:28 PM



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Peter Natscher
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Reged: 03/28/06

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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5376046 - 08/19/12 02:34 PM Attachment (108 downloads)

My ATS Transportable Pier and AP900GTO CP3 mount have been set up and waiting for this telescope since mid-June. I was initially concerned about lifting it's 43 lbs. weight into the saddle 72 in. up. One deep breath and up it went -- so easily ) I guess I'm in shape from handling my 24 in. StarStructure Dob. This is one beautiful telescope! Once holding it, you feel its quality throughout your body. The 54 in. tall ATS Pier and 900GTO mount seem to handle this telescope easily. Thank you Roland, Marj, and the entire Astro-Physics team for offering me one of your beautiful creations!

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Peter Natscher
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Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5376049 - 08/19/12 02:38 PM Attachment (104 downloads)

The AP 175EDF #02 air-spaced objective looks beautiful! As I peer into it, it looks like there's no glass at all -- I only see the CNC's interior of the 8 in. tube. I wonder if Roland is keeping #01?

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Peter Natscher
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Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5376074 - 08/19/12 02:54 PM Attachment (187 downloads)

A picture of the AP 175EDF on a ATS 54 in. tall Transportable Pier and AP900GTO CP3 Mount.

Edited by Peter Natscher (08/19/12 04:11 PM)


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Malabargold
member


Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5376112 - 08/19/12 03:18 PM

Thanks for going out of your way to post these for us!

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APtelephoto
super member


Reged: 04/17/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5376163 - 08/19/12 03:51 PM

Spectacular!

Clear Skies!

Pete


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5376286 - 08/19/12 05:09 PM

Peter,
Just wonderful! I wish you much enjoyment with it Peter. Will you be using it for visual and or AP?

Best, Joe


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Scott in NCAdministrator
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5376317 - 08/19/12 05:29 PM

Very nice, Peter--congrats!

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Peter Natscher
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Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: jmiele]
      #5376339 - 08/19/12 05:40 PM

Visual for now. I will dabble with AP in the near future.

Quote:

Peter,
Just wonderful! I wish you much enjoyment with it Peter. Will you be using it for visual and or AP?

Best, Joe




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seattlepete
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Loc: Uh...seattle.
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5376491 - 08/19/12 07:50 PM

My wife told me after we buy a house I can buy any scope I want....well, within some kind of reason....this one looks like a possibility...if we don't buy a whole household of new furniture of course!

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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 175 new [Re: seattlepete]
      #5376870 - 08/20/12 12:54 AM

Quote:

My wife told me after we buy a house I can buy any scope I want....well, within some kind of reason....this one looks like a possibility...if we don't buy a whole household of new furniture of course!




Ah, I hate to burst your bubble but unless you were on the notification list in pre-internet and almost pre-personal computer days, you don't have a chance of purchasing one of these from Astro-Physics. If you did sign up on the proper list some 15 to 16 or so years ago, you might have a chance at purchasing one. However, if you actually did sign up, and you haven't already been notified, it is highly unlikely you ever will be. But don't despair too much. There is always the second hand market. Just make sure you have an additional 10 to 20K over and above the list price available to spend on one.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5376906 - 08/20/12 01:35 AM

Wow- seeing it in person at NEAF was pretty impressive- but there was no looking THROUGH it.

I can't wait to hear how first light goes.

And I am amused to see the box still just has the one handle on the side. I can pick up the ~23 lbs. of 130 EDFGT and case with the one handle; a 94 lb. OTA? Then again, WOW, there it is! Buy a dolly just to move it around!

For what it's worth, the AP smell is fairly long lived. Mine still has that "Something new, unlike anything else you've encountered" odor a little over a year later.

I really am interested in your report for first light. Roland claimed it had better color correction than the AP130 EDFGT. I had to tell him, that's quite a claim.

-Rich

Edited by Starhawk (08/20/12 01:40 AM)


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chboss
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/24/08

Loc: Zurich Switzerland
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5376911 - 08/20/12 01:40 AM

Beautiful scope, looking forward to your first light report!
Anybody knows how many of those scopes will be produced?

regards
Chris


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seattlepete
super member


Reged: 01/29/12

Loc: Uh...seattle.
Re: AP 175 new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5377003 - 08/20/12 04:12 AM

Quote:

Ah, I hate to burst your bubble but unless you were on the notification list in pre-internet and almost pre-personal computer days, you don't have a chance of purchasing one of these from Astro-Physics. If you did sign up on the proper list some 15 to 16 or so years ago, you might have a chance at purchasing one. However, if you actually did sign up, and you haven't already been notified, it is highly unlikely you ever will be. But don't despair too much. There is always the second hand market. Just make sure you have an additional 10 to 20K over and above the list price available to spend on one.




Oh, I know this...just wanting to put my lust out there like many others.


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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5377199 - 08/20/12 09:54 AM

The case alone for the 175EDF weighs 30.5 lbs. With the 175 inside, it's 73.5 lbs. This is getting heavy to lift in and out of my SUV tailgate for transporting to my dark sites, which is the way I observe. With moving mats underneath, I can slide the scope inside the case easily in and out of the cargo area since it has a smooth vinyl-type covering. I am thinking of adding wheels at one end of the case, or purchase a ScopeGuard case with wheels.

Quote:


And I am amused to see the box still just has the one handle on the side. I can pick up the ~23 lbs. of 130 EDFGT and case with the one handle; a 94 lb. OTA? Then again, WOW, there it is! Buy a dolly just to move it around!

-Rich




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Starhawk
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5377211 - 08/20/12 10:06 AM

Some roller-blade or scooter wheels could make it quite mobile. Does it have an end- handle? Of course, the way to roll it is with the focuser down.

I expect that front end is pretty heavy, but I wouldn't want it to be on the shaking end.

-Rich


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Scott99
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5377403 - 08/20/12 12:01 PM

ooooh, very sleek looking scope! Does the dewshield have a screw or is it friction-fit like the 130? thanks for the photos. I would be absolutely loving the classic apo f/8 focal ratio. It's good for eyepieces and reaching high power, and the longer tube is aesthetically pleasing as well!

one trick I've used when I need the hard case is to move the scope into the car in two trips - i.e., take the empty case to the car, then bring the scope out & drop it in. Should be some nice views from dark skies!

Looks like the tube is 51.25" long for transport - not that bad, just over 4 feet.

http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/telescopes/175edf/175edf


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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Scott99]
      #5379162 - 08/21/12 11:13 AM Attachment (68 downloads)

It has a dew shield set screw. The dew shield slides fairly easy but holds any position sliding on its own.

Quote:

ooooh, very sleek looking scope! Does the dewshield have a screw or is it friction-fit like the 130? thanks for the photos. I would be absolutely loving the classic apo f/8 focal ratio. It's good for eyepieces and reaching high power, and the longer tube is aesthetically pleasing as well!

one trick I've used when I need the hard case is to move the scope into the car in two trips - i.e., take the empty case to the car, then bring the scope out & drop it in. Should be some nice views from dark skies!

Looks like the tube is 51.25" long for transport - not that bad, just over 4 feet.

http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/telescopes/175edf/175edf




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Peter Natscher
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Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5379169 - 08/21/12 11:16 AM

The case has end handles at both ends. I can lift the case with scope inside into the SUV cargo area using the front center handle and one end handle. A padded hand truck if needed can be used to move it around the garage.

Quote:

Some roller-blade or scooter wheels could make it quite mobile. Does it have an end- handle? Of course, the way to roll it is with the focuser down.

I expect that front end is pretty heavy, but I wouldn't want it to be on the shaking end.

-Rich




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Paul G
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Loc: Freedonia
Re: AP 175 new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5479023 - 10/19/12 03:26 PM

Mine arrives next Wednesday.

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Dwight56
super member


Reged: 04/17/10

Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5479306 - 10/19/12 06:57 PM

My AP 175 arrives this next Monday been tracking the box on UPS

Edited by Dwight56 (10/19/12 07:00 PM)


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mgwhittle
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Reged: 08/24/11

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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Dwight56]
      #5479337 - 10/19/12 07:19 PM

Are you two part if the lottery? I'm waiting as patiently as possible for mine.

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Paul G
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Loc: Freedonia
Re: AP 175 new [Re: mgwhittle]
      #5479378 - 10/19/12 07:45 PM

Quote:

Are you two part if the lottery? I'm waiting as patiently as possible for mine.




I was on the old 180 f7 list from 1996, was notified late June.


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mgwhittle
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Paul G]
      #5479389 - 10/19/12 07:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Are you two part if the lottery? I'm waiting as patiently as possible for mine.




I was on the old 180 f7 list from 1996, was notified late June.




Gus, what mount will you be using? I have never seen a 900 or 1600 GTO in person, so I'm trying to figure out which of those two to choose.


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Mirzam
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: mgwhittle]
      #5479400 - 10/19/12 07:58 PM

I had a 7" f/9 APO on an AP900 mount and it worked very well. The 1600 will be MUCH less portable if that matters to you.

JimC


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Paul G
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: mgwhittle]
      #5479403 - 10/19/12 08:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Are you two part if the lottery? I'm waiting as patiently as possible for mine.




I was on the old 180 f7 list from 1996, was notified late June.




Gus, what mount will you be using? I have never seen a 900 or 1600 GTO in person, so I'm trying to figure out which of those two to choose.




I'll be using a 900GTO. I have to transport to observe, not sure my old back could handle the 1600.


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mgwhittle
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Re: AP 175 new [Re: Mirzam]
      #5479405 - 10/19/12 08:04 PM

Quote:

I had a 7" f/9 APO on an AP900 mount and it worked very well. The 1600 will be MUCH less portable if that matters to you.

JimC




Yes, that is going to be the problem, it does matter, I travel almost once a month two hours to my dark sky site. But I don't want to get the 900 and wish I had more stability. How much vibration do you get with your combination?


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