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Hanns
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Reged: 09/19/10
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: cheapersleeper]
#5321678 - 07/17/12 10:22 AM
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There is no debate over the "right tools for the job" philosophy. The debate comes in when anyone from any of the astro sub-sets claims that his/her scope is "better."
I see a lot of disagreement as to what the right tool for any given job is - and I can see how it could get emotional for people who have invested significant resources in certain instruments and don't want to hear that some other instrument might do x better.
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The biggest puzzle to me is that in the hobby SO many people are more than willing to share access to their scopes at SP's and many people with these type questions don't take advantage of it. A star party is a great place to see many objects, and objectives. If you find at the end of the night you want to take home more than one of the instruments you looked through, you've found the answer.
I live very near to the Skies Unlimited store (same shopping center I go grocery shopping in - dangerous!). When I walk in there, I want to take everything home Seriously, Newts, cats, refractors - all potentially beautiful instruments just waiting to show us cool things.
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...pinpoint stars, no messing with collimation, quick cooldown times. I imagine at some point in the future I might once again add a larger dobsonian to the mix, but for now I just don't think I would use a dob enough to justify the expense.
Yes... I think this describes my feeling on it as well. I'd love a light bucket, but I don't know that I'd drag it out enough to justify the expense and space it takes up. Maybe a fast newt on my existing mount.
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GOLGO13
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/05/05
Loc: St. Louis area
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Hanns]
#5321713 - 07/17/12 10:40 AM
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I find dobsonian reflectors to be quite easy to setup and take down. They are much easier/quicker than an equitorial mounted telescope to me. My 4 inch apo on a porta mount is equivilent to my 6 inch dob (can pick it up and move it all at once). Both are great scopes. The 10 inch requires setting the mount out, then dropping in the tube. A quick check of collimation with a cheshire. Equitorials are a pain to me. I do like the capability they provide. But I rather have a nice alt az for any scope type, unless I need the tracking, thus why I have both options.
Cool down I can agree...but more of an issue in the winter than normal times. Usually I just set my scope on the back porch and no big deal. Or I get out the refractor while the dob is cooling. Cool down can be a bigger issue as the scope sizes grow. And can be a big issue for cassegrains and Maks with closed tubes and no cooling fans. I've read that flourites need a little more cool down than other refractor glasses. My 80 is a flourite.
A 30 inch dob is best left in an observatory or moveable shed. That's a beast. But there are plenty of 12-16 inch truss dobs which are quite managable. They also look great and have great craftmenship. Of course, they also cost a lot with premium mirrors.
Sex appeal with telescopes? That's a new one for me. I mean, among us I agree. But I can tell you that non-astro people are more impressed with my 10 inch (insert joke here) than my sexy apo.
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yashi
super member
Reged: 11/15/11
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Hanns]
#5321716 - 07/17/12 10:43 AM
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if you limit your decision by scope size. The refractor can have the upper hand.
if you limit your decision by money...dont even think about a refractor. all these contrast/ resolution arguments are meaningless if you compare a refractor with a reflector of double the size. the reflector OBLITERATES the refractor.
the point is..it doesnt matter how big your scope is, because all of them show basically nothing. its only a question of how much you need to see to be satisfied.
i prefer refractors, because i dont like diffraction-spikes. plus they look more like a telescope :P
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jmiele
Patron Saint?
   
Reged: 12/04/10
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: yashi]
#5321726 - 07/17/12 10:47 AM
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"the point is..it doesnt matter how big your scope is, because all of them show basically nothing."
That may be the most accurate point made yet in this thread. In essence it is true that for all their differences in design and size, a novice moving up to the eyepiece will see little difference. The real work is in learning to interpret and dig into what's there, and that can happen in any instrument - at any size.
Joe
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Hanns
member
Reged: 09/19/10
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: jmiele]
#5321804 - 07/17/12 11:30 AM
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the point is..it doesnt matter how big your scope is, because all of them show basically nothing.
its only a question of how much you need to see to be satisfied.
That's pretty thought provoking. It's pretty easy to forget the bigger picture of what's really out there versus the little bits we can see with any instrument an amateur would have access to.
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Sex appeal with telescopes? That's a new one for me. I mean, among us I agree. But I can tell you that non-astro people are more impressed with my 10 inch (insert joke here) than my sexy apo.
Haha, I agree. Yes, I was talking specifically about enthusiasts (people willing to drop serious coin on a telescope). I also agree with your other points. In the case of a dob, you are absolutely correct, and I find the GEM to be a pain compared to any alt-az mount. However, since my particular thrill right now is astrophotography, the GEM is kind of a necessary evil and since I live in an apartment, there's no room physically for a big dob. But that's specific to my situation and not a statement on what's better or worse.
Edited by Hanns (07/17/12 11:34 AM)
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Scott99
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 05/10/07
Loc: New England
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Hanns]
#5321819 - 07/17/12 11:41 AM
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aperture is king, yes, so you get the biggest refractor you can....seems simple enough
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GOLGO13
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/05/05
Loc: St. Louis area
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Hanns]
#5321826 - 07/17/12 11:48 AM
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How do you like that GEM? It look really cool, and seems affordable for what it's capable of doing.
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galaxyman
Vendor - Have a Stellar Birthday
   
Reged: 04/04/05
Loc: Limerick, Pa
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Hanns]
#5321843 - 07/17/12 11:59 AM
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Well first I'm fortunate to own big aperture in both types (relative to each respective type).
The big dob is king of deep and detail, but the big refractor esthetic views is extremely pleasing (plus it can go deep and detail). So owning both adds a lot to my observing endeavor.
["The point is. it doesn't matter how big your scope is, because all of them show basically nothing."]
Well, after 41+ years of DSO only observing, I'm not sure about that 
Karl E.O.H.
Chesmont Astronomical Society - www.chesmontastro.org Deep Space with Refractors - http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/deepspacewithrefractors Telekit (Swayze optics) 22" F/4.5 Dob Homemade (Parks Optics) 12.5" F/4.8 Dob TMB/APM 8" f/9 Refractor”The Beast”. One great DEEP SKY achro ES 6" f/6.5 achro. Good one Celestron Omni XLT 102 refractor. Celestron 10x60mm Binos
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Maverick199
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/27/11
Loc: India
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Hanns]
#5321856 - 07/17/12 12:08 PM
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I have a normal road car which can seat 5 people, yet if I had the money, would have bought a two seater sports coupe.
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FirstSight
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/26/05
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Hanns]
#5321919 - 07/17/12 12:41 PM
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Inspired by many discussions I've seen over time about how aperture is king and how the impact of the central obstruction on other designs is overstated, I am curious why people spend the extra money on refractors.
Because it's too hard to peek into neighbor's windows with a dob.
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Hanns
member
Reged: 09/19/10
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: FirstSight]
#5321933 - 07/17/12 12:50 PM
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Inspired by many discussions I've seen over time about how aperture is king and how the impact of the central obstruction on other designs is overstated, I am curious why people spend the extra money on refractors.
Because it's too hard to peek into neighbor's windows with a dob.
I think we have a winner!
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jmiele
Patron Saint?
   
Reged: 12/04/10
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Scott99]
#5321938 - 07/17/12 12:52 PM
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aperture is king, yes, so you get the biggest refractor you can....seems simple enough
So, your saying "refractor" aperture is king? I thought the OP's question was, "if" aperture is king, then why refractors? Maybe the OP can clarify for us. Because if you feel aperture is king, some might agree, however not if you qualify it that way.
Joe
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Hanns
member
Reged: 09/19/10
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: GOLGO13]
#5321962 - 07/17/12 01:11 PM
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How do you like that GEM? It look really cool, and seems affordable for what it's capable of doing.
To be honest, it's my first GEM. I've always used alt-az mounts before. The mount in and of itself seems fine - just more time consuming to set up and align than something like my old LX90. I'm still trying to get the hang of polar alignment, but I haven't had too much opportunity lately due to weather.
Here's a single 5 minute guided exposure. Granted you can't really judge the mount with this because it's not full res, but it was enough to give me a big rush. And yes, I know the center is blown and it is only a single frame, but seeing that pop up on the screen was still pretty amazing.
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Eddgie
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/01/06
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Hanns]
#5321966 - 07/17/12 01:13 PM
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Make no mistake here. If you want to see more structure or detail in any kind of extended target such as nebula, galaxies, or planets, there is absolutly no substitute for clear aperture. Almost all of the design discussions totally omit the function of image brightnss/image scale that is offered by a larger aperture. We tend to discuss equipment like we don't have eyeballs.
But we do have eyeballs... Or Cameras.
The image brigntness and the ability to trade it for image scale is a huge part of the value of a larger aperture.
Keep in mind that a 16" telescope and a 4" telescope can both show the Oroin Nebula with the exact same brigntness. Is all one has to do is use an eyepeice in each scope that has the same exit pupil.
For example, if I use a 16" telescope at 100x, this will give about a 4mm exit pupil for the observer. In a 4" scope, to get the same exit pupil (same image brightness), you will have to use 25x.
Now in the 4" scope, the image is exactly as bright as in the 16" scope, but the scale is only 1/4th as large.
Now is where it gets interesting. The structure inside the nebula is often very low contrast and very fine.
It is often stated on these forums that the human eye can resolve down to one arc minuted. This actually greatly overstates the eye performnace of the scotopic eye for low contrast detail. This figure (one arc minute) is only achievable when the target is well illuminated and the contrast is 100%.
If the eye is in scotopic mode, and the contrast is very low, the eye may struggle to resolve detail that is smaller than about 3 or 4 arc minutes of apparent field unless the contrast is very high or the target is well illuminated.
There are two ways to increase the likelyhood of the human eye (or camera) being able to resolve this very low contrast detail. They are to A: Make it bigger by magnifying it more, or B: make it brighter. Of course if you can make it slightly bigger and slightly brighter, this greatly enhances your ability to resolve fine, low contrast structure present in the extended target.
Now, lets take our 16" scope and our 4" scope and use the 16" scope with our 4mm exit pupil. Remember, the illumination (determined by the exit pupil) is the same, but the angular size of any detail in the target will be four times as large. Detail within the target that does not have the angular magnificaiton to be resolved in the smaller scope is now presented as four times as large. This means that there is now a lot more detail that has been magnified enough to be seen in the much bigger scope. Of course I can make the detail larger in the smaller telescope but this comes at the expense of loosing illumination (smaller exit pupil) which makes it harder for the eye to see the detail.
The other option is to make the image bigger and brighter in the bigger scope. Suppose I use the bigger scope with a 6mm exit pupil. Now, the exit pupil being larger gives me a brigter image. Once again, the eye likes illumination as one of the two ways to improve the ability to detect detail. When I make the image brighter in the larger scope, I see the extended target as extending over more area. The added brightness expands the extent of a nebula or galaxy. And guess what.... With the 6mm exit pupil in the 400mm scope, the magnification is 66x, so every detail present is still presented at almsot 2.5 times the image scale as it would be in the 4" aperture!!!!!! So now I have an image that is both bigger AND brighter in the larger aperture. I don't care what kind of scope this is... It can be a refractor, a reflector, or a compound scope. If I make the image bigger and brighter, even if the contrast of the detail is exactly the same, my eye will have a better chance of seeing that detail if I make it bigger or brighter, or both at the same time.
Again, make no mistake about it... For seeing the most detail in extended targets of all types, clear aperture is king. You cannot isolate the telescope from the detector, and when the human eye is the detector, with a larger aperture you usually get both increased scale AND better illumination of the target and all of the structure present in the target.
I have owned perhaps 40 telescopes in the last 10 years, and for all class of extended target and I would rank them in terms of performance in almost 100% agreement with the amount of clear aperture the scopes provided. I personally have never compared two telescope (even of different types) that the scope with the most clear aperture didn't equal or exceed the performance of the smaller clear aperture.
There is no substitute for aperture. That is why the Hubble is a 2.4 meter instrument and not a 4" refractor.
Aperture gives you image scale and illumination. It doesn't even matter how you get that aperture (design). It is only important to have a lot of it.
Big telescopes simply show more. At the end of the day, if you want to see more structure in all class of extended targets, or if you want to see these extended targets at their maximum size, the best way to do this is to use as much aperture as you can manage.
The problem with refractors is that to get any meaningful amount of clear aperure (I recommend 8" to 10" for seeing a lot of structure in most deep sky extended targets) the expense becomes impractical as does the physical size of the instrument.
Everyone gets to use what they like, but the physics of image formation give clear aperture the best image formation, and lots of aperture gives the human eye the best chance of seeing any existing detail that might be present in the target.
There really isn't any substitute for clear aperture. The more you apply to almost any target in the sky, the more structure or detail you will be able to see.
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elwaine
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/18/06
Loc: S.W. Florida
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: yashi]
#5321973 - 07/17/12 01:22 PM
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all these contrast/ resolution arguments are meaningless if you compare a refractor with a reflector of double the size. the reflector OBLITERATES the refractor.
There is some truth underlying that statement, but it needs to be qualified: Under optimum to very good seeing conditions, aperture rules; but for many of us, seeing conditions are rarely very good - let alone optimal. In such instances, larger apertures can actually perform worse than smaller apertures.
IMO, the cut off is at approximately 7 inches. Apertures larger than ~7" inches start to become picky about seeing conditions. And in the small aperture category, quality refractors of nearly equal size to quality reflectors can often yield more pleasing views.
Other benefits to quality refractors, as has been mentioned above: rapid cool down, no collimation need, attracts lots of young women.
Regards,
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GOLGO13
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/05/05
Loc: St. Louis area
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Hanns]
#5322028 - 07/17/12 02:07 PM
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do you have the polar finder scope which screws into the middle of it? I'd suggest it if you do not. It makes a big difference for getting polar alignment correct. And it's pretty cheap.
That's a nice photo...it's hard to get the trapesium balanced. I personally have skipped astrophotography for monetary reasons...but I enjoy looking at the photos of others.
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Hanns
member
Reged: 09/19/10
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: GOLGO13]
#5322083 - 07/17/12 02:46 PM
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do you have the polar finder scope which screws into the middle of it? I'd suggest it if you do not. It makes a big difference for getting polar alignment correct. And it's pretty cheap.
That's a nice photo...it's hard to get the trapesium balanced. I personally have skipped astrophotography for monetary reasons...but I enjoy looking at the photos of others.
It's something I've been building towards for years. My first attempts were using a film camera to take snapshots through the eyepiece of my 6" dob when I was in high school. I pretty much knew from then that any resources I invest in this hobby should build toward that goal. Of course I didn't appreciate things like field rotation at that time... hence my LX90. But still, fun times were had 
As for this photo, I've got many images taken at various exposures that I could integrate and maybe get something more balanced, but (and I know this is bad...) I find actually shooting the pictures way more exciting than processing them. So that hasn't happened yet. I'm sure it will.
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Astrojensen
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Reged: 10/05/08
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Eddgie]
#5322109 - 07/17/12 02:57 PM
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Make no mistake here. If you want to see more structure or detail in any kind of extended target such as nebula, galaxies, or planets, there is absolutly no substitute for clear aperture.
Almost all of the design discussions totally omit the function of image brightnss/image scale that is offered by a larger aperture. We tend to discuss equipment like we don't have eyeballs.
I don't think anyone in this discussion so far has questioned the effectiveness of aperture. The point is that aperture is meaningless if you can't use it effectively if it's too cumbersome to drag out from the house and out under the stars or takes so long to cool down that you're limited to the lowest powers the scope in question can give, unless you want to look at huge fuzzballs instead of stars and planets.
I have a C8 on a Vixen GP mount and tripod. It literally takes one minute to carry outside and set up. True grab 'n go and quite serious aperture, bigger than most refractors. Very good optics, too. I also have a 6" f/8 refractor on an EQ-6 with big, heavy Baader tripod. It takes several trips to set up, about ten minutes or so. So what do I use most? The refractor. Why? Because it is ready as soon as I've set it up. There is almost no cooldown time, while the C8 seems to almost never cool down, except in warm summer evenings. What good is super portability, if the images are bad for two hours afterwards? I consider my 6" f/8 more grab 'n go than my C8, simply due to the cooldown issues of the latter.
If looked upon as an entity in itself, bigger aperture is always better when it comes to resolution and light grasp, but a telescope is a sum of all its parts and thus aperture is not always the most important factor when we try to decide what scope to buy.
Clear skies! Thomas, Denmark
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Astrojensen]
#5322114 - 07/17/12 03:02 PM
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It is more affected by bouts of less than perfect seeing...
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GOLGO13
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/05/05
Loc: St. Louis area
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Re: "Aperture is king" - Why refractors?
[Re: Astrojensen]
#5322166 - 07/17/12 03:40 PM
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Get that puppy out there cooling!
I think closed tube scopes do have some challenges if they do not have some sort of cooling help. Many do not have any. As you get into those bigger apertures, cooling is an issue. Newts or other open tube designs are not so bad. I think there are some closed tube designs that may never fully cool down, which is a design issue in my opinion.
If you plan ahead, you can get most newts cooled in 1/2 to one hour with fans, depending on mirror size...in cold weather I'm talking. In warm weather, unless it's really warm, it's not very long. I don't think of cooling as a big deal personally, but I also have refractors to supplement. I would still want my refractor to have 20 minutes in cold weather.
I still think each design has it's pluses and minuses. And that's what should be considered when choosing a scope. Not just blindly going with one design because someone said to. For me, cost has a lot to do with my choices. I can't afford (well, my wife wouldn't let me) get a big apo. So I am stuck with my current configuration. If I could spend $3000, I would have to choose between a 5 inch APO and a 12-14 inch premium dob. Right now I'm leaning toward the dob, but both would be killer. Problem for me, that isn't going to happen any time soon with two young kids.
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