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Equipment Discussions >> Refractors

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mgwhittle
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/24/11

Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: Napersky]
      #5619501 - 01/12/13 05:32 PM

Sweet! Lets see a picture of that 6 inch AP out of the box!

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Grava T
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Quebec, Canada
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: mgwhittle]
      #5619520 - 01/12/13 05:44 PM

Wow Mark! That is one sweet scope! Hope to hear a first light report soon.

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mikey cee
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/18/07

Loc: bellevue ne.
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: Grava T]
      #5619590 - 01/12/13 06:23 PM

Mark and Darren looks like you boys have nothing but *BLEEP* lick weather going on right now. We have winds and 20° but dry.....and clear tonight. Big deal huh? You puttin' that puppy together inside the garage and take us some pics?? Can't wait for your first impressions! Mike

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aa6ww
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 10/23/11

Loc: Sacramento, Calif.
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: Napersky]
      #5620213 - 01/13/13 06:13 AM

Quote:

This is the best amateur refractor I have looked thru. Now what that does is exclude all large refractors over 6" since 6" is the largest I have been able to use.

Nothwithstanding the aperture limitation this scope presented outstanding views of the disc of Neptune with some detail. I have not seen any reflector, SCT including our Chicago Astronomical Society's 14 MEADE LX200 on a Paramount ME produce views anywhere close to this wonderful scope.

It's long focal length f12 truly makes it a SUPER PLANETARY INTRUSMENT.

Mark

I am not the seller and wish I could buy it!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Astrophysics-6-f12-Superplanetary-refractor-Losmandy-...




These long triplets are absolutely the best 6" refractors ever built, period. Many years ago, I was at an outing and we were all watching a crescent venus and it smoked a near by AP-160 EDF so bad, after the owner of the EDF refractor got one look through the F12 Superplanetary, he turned his scope on other objects in the sky and acted like the comparison never happened.
I watched the shoemaker levy 9 impact on Jupiter with one of these scopes, and nothing around could match the sharpness and rock solid details the F12 could produce.
One thing no one ever talks about, because few people understand this, is that long tube refractors have a greater depth of focus, and are less affected by wavefront changes caused by atmospheric turbulence. Because of this, long tube refractors are more forgiving to outside conditions and give the most consistency in performance over shorter focal length scopes of the same aperture, regardless if they "claim" to be better corrected.
People can talk in these forums and show you spot diagrams and correction graphs and flood you with mathematics about how more modern shorter focal length scopes "should" give better performance, but in the real world when the rubber hits the road, you wont find a better 6" refractor on planets than a long tube F12 or even F15 triplet.
Congratulation on the purchase!!

...Ralph


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rfr66
member
*****

Reged: 12/07/11

Loc: Long Island, NY
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: aa6ww]
      #5620454 - 01/13/13 10:28 AM

Does the magic of the long focal ratio happen with just refractors or can you experience the same thing with something like an F20 Parallax or Royce telescope, meaning that it will be less subject to the affect of seeing and act more like a smaller aperture with regards to giving a stable image?

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rfic1
sage
*****

Reged: 10/25/05

Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: aa6ww]
      #5620513 - 01/13/13 10:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

This is the best amateur refractor I have looked thru. Now what that does is exclude all large refractors over 6" since 6" is the largest I have been able to use.

Nothwithstanding the aperture limitation this scope presented outstanding views of the disc of Neptune with some detail. I have not seen any reflector, SCT including our Chicago Astronomical Society's 14 MEADE LX200 on a Paramount ME produce views anywhere close to this wonderful scope.

It's long focal length f12 truly makes it a SUPER PLANETARY INTRUSMENT.

Mark

I am not the seller and wish I could buy it!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Astrophysics-6-f12-Superplanetary-refractor-Losmandy-...




These long triplets are absolutely the best 6" refractors ever built, period. Many years ago, I was at an outing and we were all watching a crescent venus and it smoked a near by AP-160 EDF so bad, after the owner of the EDF refractor got one look through the F12 Superplanetary, he turned his scope on other objects in the sky and acted like the comparison never happened.
I watched the shoemaker levy 9 impact on Jupiter with one of these scopes, and nothing around could match the sharpness and rock solid details the F12 could produce.
One thing no one ever talks about, because few people understand this, is that long tube refractors have a greater depth of focus, and are less affected by wavefront changes caused by atmospheric turbulence. Because of this, long tube refractors are more forgiving to outside conditions and give the most consistency in performance over shorter focal length scopes of the same aperture, regardless if they "claim" to be better corrected.
People can talk in these forums and show you spot diagrams and correction graphs and flood you with mathematics about how more modern shorter focal length scopes "should" give better performance, but in the real world when the rubber hits the road, you wont find a better 6" refractor on planets than a long tube F12 or even F15 triplet.
Congratulation on the purchase!!

...Ralph




Ralph,
I could not agree more with your assessment. At one time I had 5 high end 5" apochromats. A Takahashi FC125, FS 128, AP 130 f/8.3, 5" f/6 TMB and a 130 f/12 ApoMax. During periods of less favorable seeing the ApoMax always provided the better view. Selling that particular scope was not one of the best equipment decisions I have made.
Bob


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gillmj24
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 12/06/05

Loc: PA
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: rfr66]
      #5620521 - 01/13/13 10:58 AM

Quote:

Does the magic of the long focal ratio happen with just refractors or can you experience the same thing with something like an F20 Parallax or Royce telescope, meaning that it will be less subject to the affect of seeing and act more like a smaller aperture with regards to giving a stable image?




I would say no because tube currents often affect a cassegrain more than a refractor, IMHO. Especially because you are probably talking about apertures larger than 6".


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mikey cee
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/18/07

Loc: bellevue ne.
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: gillmj24]
      #5620808 - 01/13/13 01:33 PM

In all my years of observing I've never experienced a refractor like image in any other type of scope. Sorry just isn't going to happen and I'm not trying to sell telescopes here. I want a nice long depth of focus with true spot on airy discs whenever seeing permits. Mark you'll have one knockout image I'm sure...topped only by your Zeiss if and when you get it done. Mike

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chboss
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/24/08

Loc: Zurich Switzerland
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: aa6ww]
      #5621718 - 01/13/13 09:22 PM

Quote:


These long triplets are absolutely the best 6" refractors ever built, period.




A long focus refractor is unbeatable for visual planetary observation, or double stars, no question. The depth of focus makes all the difference in unsteady conditions.

But I will concur that there was no better 6" refractor for this purpose. Here is a link to Thomas Backs writeup of Astro-Physics telescope history:
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/tmb/tmb1.html

In his view the later 6" f9 EDT was a step ahead of the Super Planetary.
Nevertheless I think the Super Planetary is a superb instrument at an attractive price, congratulation good catch!

best regards
Chris


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Max Lattanzi
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/27/07

Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: rfr66]
      #5622418 - 01/14/13 10:25 AM

Quote:

Does the magic of the long focal ratio happen with just refractors or can you experience the same thing with something like an F20 Parallax or Royce telescope, meaning that it will be less subject to the affect of seeing and act more like a smaller aperture with regards to giving a stable image?




With a compound f/20 you won't experience anything near the effect of a long-focus refractor, rather the opposite. Indeed, that is not a f/20, rather a f/4 (native f/ratio of the primary mirror) whose swift f/4 defocus gets magnified 5x by the secondary. A totally different animal.

OTOH, if you have, say, a f/11 Newtonian (thinking of the 6" model that was offered by a company in UK) that would give you a similar defocus performance than, say, a nearby 6" f/11 refractor. Image won't be at all identical, as calm, as clear and as pure, but definitely *way* closer than, say, a nearby f/11 SCT (whose primary f/ratio is usually f/2 and whose f/2 defocus gets again magnified 5x by the secondary).

Hope it's clear more than confusing

-- Max


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Max Lattanzi
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/27/07

Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: chboss]
      #5622435 - 01/14/13 10:37 AM

Quote:

Here is a link to Thomas Backs writeup of Astro-Physics telescope history:
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/tmb/tmb1.html

In his view the later 6" f9 EDT was a step ahead of the Super Planetary.





Tom had an early Superplanetary and his experience may not be generalised, mainly with the several variations the SP design had over the years. As far as I understand, Roland did use this scope as a sort of optical laboratory.

May I also add that I have the luck to own what is most probably the last 6" f/12 Superplanetary ever build, whose design, among other things, is different from the one discussed here and whose coatings are EDF/EDT like, and I can totally mimic Ralph experience: a side-by-side with the 6.1" and 6.3" EDF on planets is *striking*. Of course the EDFs are outstanding astrographs, but on hi-res their performances are definitely a step behind their f/12 cousin.

-- Max


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: Max Lattanzi]
      #5622636 - 01/14/13 12:59 PM

I had one of the last 6" f/12 also. It was a 1992 "Starfire" super-planetary 6" f/12
http://www.pbase.com/mclemens1969/ap152_f12

I remember being astounded by how little focus correction was required when using the scope.

Everyone had an easy time seeing great planetary details with that scope.

During the day it had definite green and red color.


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The Ardent
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/24/08

Loc: Virginia
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5622699 - 01/14/13 01:33 PM

Thats the scope I want, simply beacuse its better to LOOK AT, than my 6" f/9.

Quote:

I had one of the last 6" f/12 also. It was a 1992 "Starfire" super-planetary 6" f/12
http://www.pbase.com/mclemens1969/ap152_f12

I remember being astounded by how little focus correction was required when using the scope.

Everyone had an easy time seeing great planetary details with that scope.

During the day it had definite green and red color.




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Widespread
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/11/11

Loc: Bowling Green, Kentucky
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: The Ardent]
      #5622802 - 01/14/13 02:41 PM

Very interesting discussion on scope FL and depth of focus!

You hear a lot of talk about improved contrast in refractors due to the lack of a secondary mirror, but this is the first I've heard about long FL refractors having a performance advantage in poor seeing.

It makes sense! Good stuff.


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: Widespread]
      #5622888 - 01/14/13 03:30 PM

I used to take a variety of scopes out to a local nature center for public viewing. With the 6" f/12 it was super easy for newcomers to see all the planetary details as I walked them through the view. People that viewed through my scopes rarely really took a quick liking to that scope.

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Napersky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/27/10

Loc: Chicagoland
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: Grava T]
      #5622893 - 01/14/13 03:32 PM

Quote:

Wow Mark! That is one sweet scope! Hope to hear a first light report soon.




Michael,

First Light was not worth reporting. Bad seeing...

Mark


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Napersky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/27/10

Loc: Chicagoland
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: mikey cee]
      #5622895 - 01/14/13 03:34 PM

Quote:

Mark and Darren looks like you boys have nothing but *BLEEP* lick weather going on right now. We have winds and 20° but dry.....and clear tonight. Big deal huh? You puttin' that puppy together inside the garage and take us some pics?? Can't wait for your first impressions! Mike





Mikey...Weather and Seeing totally Bleeping.



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Napersky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/27/10

Loc: Chicagoland
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: aa6ww]
      #5622900 - 01/14/13 03:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This is the best amateur refractor I have looked thru. Now what that does is exclude all large refractors over 6" since 6" is the largest I have been able to use.

Nothwithstanding the aperture limitation this scope presented outstanding views of the disc of Neptune with some detail. I have not seen any reflector, SCT including our Chicago Astronomical Society's 14 MEADE LX200 on a Paramount ME produce views anywhere close to this wonderful scope.

It's long focal length f12 truly makes it a SUPER PLANETARY INTRUSMENT.

Mark

I am not the seller and wish I could buy it!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Astrophysics-6-f12-Superplanetary-refractor-Losmandy-...




These long triplets are absolutely the best 6" refractors ever built, period. Many years ago, I was at an outing and we were all watching a crescent venus and it smoked a near by AP-160 EDF so bad, after the owner of the EDF refractor got one look through the F12 Superplanetary, he turned his scope on other objects in the sky and acted like the comparison never happened.
I watched the shoemaker levy 9 impact on Jupiter with one of these scopes, and nothing around could match the sharpness and rock solid details the F12 could produce.
One thing no one ever talks about, because few people understand this, is that long tube refractors have a greater depth of focus, and are less affected by wavefront changes caused by atmospheric turbulence. Because of this, long tube refractors are more forgiving to outside conditions and give the most consistency in performance over shorter focal length scopes of the same aperture, regardless if they "claim" to be better corrected.
People can talk in these forums and show you spot diagrams and correction graphs and flood you with mathematics about how more modern shorter focal length scopes "should" give better performance, but in the real world when the rubber hits the road, you wont find a better 6" refractor on planets than a long tube F12 or even F15 triplet.
Congratulation on the purchase!!

...Ralph





Ralph, You and I are completely on the same page! Thanks.

Mark


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Napersky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/27/10

Loc: Chicagoland
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: Napersky]
      #5622912 - 01/14/13 03:41 PM

Max,

Always good to hear from You!

Mark

By the way the name Mark is also "Marcus" which can also be "Max"..Like Max Planck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Planck


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chboss
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/24/08

Loc: Zurich Switzerland
Re: AP 6" Superplanetary on AstroMart new [Re: Max Lattanzi]
      #5623762 - 01/15/13 02:05 AM

Quote:


Tom had an early Superplanetary and his experience may not be generalised, mainly with the several variations the SP design had over the years. As far as I understand, Roland did use this scope as a sort of optical laboratory.

May I also add that I have the luck to own what is most probably the last 6" f/12 Superplanetary ever build, whose design, among other things, is different from the one discussed here and whose coatings are EDF/EDT like, and I can totally mimic Ralph experience: a side-by-side with the 6.1" and 6.3" EDF on planets is *striking*. Of course the EDFs are outstanding astrographs, but on hi-res their performances are definitely a step behind their f/12 cousin.

-- Max




Hi Max

Interesting information, so how long and how many versions of the Super Planetary were built?

Did you have the chance to compare your Super Planetary to a 6" f9 EDT T. Back mentions in his text?
I would be interested how big the visual difference is between an f9 and f12 telescope.

best regards
Chris


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