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Equipment Discussions >> Refractors

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bb4
super member


Reged: 04/16/07

AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun!
      #5785329 - 04/08/13 06:53 AM

Anybody hear form AP? I love the form factor of this scope when separated. Seems to be once of the best travel scopes on the market.

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Mark9473
Postmaster
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Reged: 07/21/05

Loc: 51°N 4°E
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #5785597 - 04/08/13 10:34 AM

Is this the 130 GT that started shipping 5 years ago, or is it a new model?

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bb4
super member


Reged: 04/16/07

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mark9473]
      #5785614 - 04/08/13 10:46 AM

To my knowledge, this is the same model that started shipping 5 years ago. Who knows how much longer they will be making these before moving on to the next 130mm model.

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Mark9473
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Reged: 07/21/05

Loc: 51°N 4°E
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #5785715 - 04/08/13 11:25 AM

So what is your announcement that "notifications have begun" about then?

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bb4
super member


Reged: 04/16/07

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mark9473]
      #5785833 - 04/08/13 12:11 PM

AP has just announced notification for the next production run of the AP 130EDFGT, which are said to be close to completion. This does not happen often.

Note, you cannot buy these off the shelf. You have to wait many years and only after being notified by AP can you purchase one.


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Traveler
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/19/07

Loc: The Netherlands
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #5785836 - 04/08/13 12:14 PM

When AP stops the 130GT, i Hope they will design a light 140mm Apo.

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t.r.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Traveler]
      #5785843 - 04/08/13 12:18 PM

Rumor had it, they were doing another run of 160's IIRC.

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MattT
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 04/20/06

Loc: SF Bay Area
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #5785882 - 04/08/13 12:37 PM

I'd been on the list since the late 90s but had to decline when my number came up 5 years ago, for financial reasons. Things are better now and I just called A-P hoping to get another chance this round....but no dice. When you decline you have to start again from the bottom of the list.

Edited by MattT (04/08/13 12:41 PM)


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t.r.
Post Laureate
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: MattT]
      #5785928 - 04/08/13 12:51 PM

Been there, done that, to great regret! I actually had my deposit in for the 160EDF! But after a years wait and no scope, things change, I opted to take the high road and pass it back to AP to give someone else a shot on the list rather than taking delivery and selling. Now the 160 goes for upwards of $20,000!?!? I tried to get on the 175 list before it was even announced to NO avail. My lesson learned...No good deed goes unpunished! WHen your name comes up, do whatever must be done to secure the scope...then you can decide if you are keeping it for the long haul!

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MattT
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 04/20/06

Loc: SF Bay Area
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5785933 - 04/08/13 12:53 PM

I feel your pain TR....We should start some kind of support group!

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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #5786112 - 04/08/13 02:04 PM

Quote:

AP has just announced notification for the next production run of the AP 130EDFGT, which are said to be close to completion. This does not happen often.

Note, you cannot buy these off the shelf. You have to wait many years and only after being notified by AP can you purchase one.





. . . and, so, what year is the waiting list up to now, 2002, 2003, 2004 ???


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BCNGreyCat
member
*****

Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Virginia, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5786154 - 04/08/13 02:30 PM

Company Seven website now lists "Yes" as to "Accepting orders" for 130EDFGT

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bb4
super member


Reged: 04/16/07

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: BCNGreyCat]
      #5786159 - 04/08/13 02:33 PM

Yes. That is correct. I signed up on both company seven's and AP's waiting lists. Company Seven is usually faster. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

After this posting, I doubt they will show accepting orders for much longer.


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stmifx
super member


Reged: 04/08/11

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #5786175 - 04/08/13 02:39 PM

Company7 website is not easy to navigate! Where do you see accepting orders on their website?

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BCNGreyCat
member
*****

Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Virginia, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: stmifx]
      #5786197 - 04/08/13 03:17 PM

http://www.company7.com/astrophy/apavail.html#availability

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zawijava
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 10/06/07

Loc: Wells, Maine 04090
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #5786391 - 04/08/13 04:52 PM

I have been on the list for the 130 for at least a Decade I believe, and was very surprised to get a Notification last week from AP. I graciously accepted their offer and sent my deposit My birthday is next month, I'm hoping for an early delivery but have no idea where I fall on the delivery schedule -Tim

Quote:

Anybody hear form AP? I love the form factor of this scope when separated. Seems to be once of the best travel scopes on the market.




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bb4
super member


Reged: 04/16/07

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5786453 - 04/08/13 05:18 PM

Alright Tim!

You are the first person that I know of to get a notification.

You will have to post some pictures once your scope arrives.


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SteveG
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/27/06

Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: MattT]
      #5786465 - 04/08/13 05:25 PM

Quote:

I'd been on the list since the late 90s but had to decline when my number came up 5 years ago, for financial reasons. Things are better now and I just called A-P hoping to get another chance this round....but no dice. When you decline you have to start again from the bottom of the list.




Same here - back in 2002. I had just bought a small plane, so no cash! Wish I had been able, but at least I still have & enjoy the plane.


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bb4
super member


Reged: 04/16/07

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: SteveG]
      #5786471 - 04/08/13 05:28 PM

10+ years. That should give the rest of us an idea of how much longer we will have to wait.

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zawijava
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 10/06/07

Loc: Wells, Maine 04090
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #5786626 - 04/08/13 06:49 PM

Yes , there will be plenty!!!

Quote:

Alright Tim!

You are the first person that I know of to get a notification.

You will have to post some pictures once your scope arrives.




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RodgerHouTex
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/02/09

Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5786852 - 04/08/13 09:04 PM

I called AP and they have began notifying folks that ordered in 2003.

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hfjacinto
I think he's got it!
*****

Reged: 01/12/09

Loc: Land of clouds and LP
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5786857 - 04/08/13 09:06 PM

I am on the waiting list at both AP and Company 7, if called I am planning on what to sell to get the scope.

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5786867 - 04/08/13 09:10 PM

You're going to love the scope. I had mine out this weekend and was looking at the trapezium. The four brightest stars were pretty obvious, but also left nice, dark and clear areas around them so I went looking for E, which was pretty easy. So then I went looking for F, and there it was, not as a pinpoint, but the point of a tiny sharp needle. Wow that was amazing.

BTW, I have talked to Roland about these a few times over the last couple years. Apparently he plans to keep them in near continuous production as long as he can.

Tips for the expecting AP130 EDFGT notified:

(A) Plan on a C11 showing up- that's what you need in mount space both size and mass wise for planning purposes. You'll understand the first time you get it out of the box.

(B) Expect massive intimidation factor on arrival. It's just the way it is. Take it slow- you'll survive better.

(C) Be ready with a 3mm eyepiece with decent quality. You'll need it.

(D) Look at objects you think you've done to death. I look at the moon a lot with mine and regularly see things I didn't suspect.

(E) Yes, it smells unusual. Yes, it will still smell like that a year later.

Best wishes,

-Rich


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zawijava
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 10/06/07

Loc: Wells, Maine 04090
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5787081 - 04/08/13 10:46 PM

It will be a joy to use! Thanks for the tips, though I can only concur on C, D and E. -Tim

Quote:

You're going to love the scope. Tips for the expecting AP130 EDFGT notified:

(A) Plan on a C11 showing up- that's what you need in mount space both size and mass wise for planning purposes. You'll understand the first time you get it out of the box.

(B) Expect massive intimidation factor on arrival. It's just the way it is. Take it slow- you'll survive better.

(C) Be ready with a 3mm eyepiece with decent quality. You'll need it.

(D) Look at objects you think you've done to death. I look at the moon a lot with mine and regularly see things I didn't suspect.

(E) Yes, it smells unusual. Yes, it will still smell like that a year later.

Best wishes,

-Rich




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ManuelJ
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/19/05

Loc: Madrid, Spain
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5787353 - 04/09/13 04:23 AM

If the notification list is since 2003, why C7 are accepting orders?. So puzzling!.

Regards,
Manuel.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: ManuelJ]
      #5787608 - 04/09/13 08:54 AM

C7 has regularly placed orders all along, so they have a second waiting list based on when they will get scopes.

-Rich


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gillmj24
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 12/06/05

Loc: PA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5787633 - 04/09/13 09:08 AM

To my knowledge they wont accept orders in off the street for an AP scope. You had to be a long time customer and have bought something from them when I was a 6 year old.

Blame the astromart flippers for that.


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ManuelJ
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/19/05

Loc: Madrid, Spain
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: gillmj24]
      #5787871 - 04/09/13 11:38 AM

Nice, then I'm not from the club. I'm just another guy with a clear problem with telescopes

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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: ManuelJ]
      #5788967 - 04/09/13 07:17 PM

Quote:

Nice, then I'm not from the club. I'm just another guy with a clear problem with telescopes




Well, you can always e-mail Company 7 and ask to be put on the list. Can't hurt.


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Paul Hyndman
sage


Reged: 07/13/04

Loc: Connecticut Shoreline USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5789221 - 04/09/13 09:57 PM

I received notification last week but passed on this one, as my current astro-arsenal already suits my needs/wants.

Bon appétit to next in line!

Paul


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Paul Hyndman]
      #5790013 - 04/10/13 10:56 AM

That was a good deed, indeed.

-Rich


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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: gillmj24]
      #5811526 - 04/20/13 06:45 PM

Quote:

Blame the astromart flippers for that.



Hmm. Someone is trying to auction off their place on the waiting list from 2008 on the other site with a $750 "Buy It Now" price.

I know this is discouraged by AP ("...we don’t want to encourage people to "sell" their positions on the list"), but in fact is it even possible? I doubt AP will exchange the names on the list and I don't think this run will reach 2008.


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FaronD
sage


Reged: 03/25/10

Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5811659 - 04/20/13 08:00 PM

I put my name on the list a year or so ago, I probably won't receive a Roland figured model. I'm confident it will be a great performer but will it have the same prestige?? It's the only scope I would replace my Tak with.

Faron


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poorman
super member


Reged: 10/08/03

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5822304 - 04/25/13 02:24 PM

Quote:



(E) Yes, it smells unusual. Yes, it will still smell like that a year later.






Received my notification as well.
List entry date 9/03, at AP.

Thought about passing on it, but now I feel the need to purchase it just to smell it.


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LLEEGE
True Blue
*****

Reged: 03/03/05

Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: FaronD]
      #5822330 - 04/25/13 02:36 PM

Quote:

I put my name on the list a year or so ago, I probably won't receive a Roland figured model. I'm confident it will be a great performer but will it have the same prestige?? It's the only scope I would replace my Tak with.

Faron


When Roland retires, AP will be a mount company only. There is no heir apparent to take over the glass grinding that I am aware of.

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #5822602 - 04/25/13 04:58 PM

I talked to Roland about this. He's already as retired as he wants to be. He said he stays up to 10-11 out in the shop and then has about 2 weeks vacation. He said his issue has been what optickers are like in general:

-They have independent capability since it is work you really have to do alone.

-They all have their own interests (maybe or maybe not interested in amateur telescopes).

-They are full up with whatever it is they want to do- no lack of demand.

So, in the end, he just shrugged as to whether any of the ones he has talked to will ultimately be interested in doing this. As for himself he said he planned to keep going until one day he falls over (he made a gesture of his hand falling over and made a little sound of it landing).

-Rich


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RAKing
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/28/07

Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5822657 - 04/25/13 05:19 PM

That is great news, Rich.

If Roland and I both live long enough, my name will eventually bubble up to the top of the list!

Cheers,

Ron


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Rinaldo
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/28/04

Loc: Lawng-eye-lind - New York, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5827313 - 04/27/13 08:51 PM

Quote:

...(E) Yes, it smells unusual. Yes, it will still smell like that a year later...




If only I read this before NEAF, I might've hung around the AP booth for a while to see if I could catch people trying to take a whiff.

On that note, I love that new binocular smell!


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Spyke
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/22/03

Loc: Scotland
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Rinaldo]
      #5828266 - 04/28/13 12:42 PM

Gosh. I'd forgotten I was on that list! 2008 I registered...
Thanks for bringing the topic up!

Ant


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Zoomit
sage


Reged: 12/04/06

Loc: Tehachapi, CA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Spyke]
      #5869278 - 05/18/13 12:56 PM

For those keeping track, I just got notified as well. I got on the list in March 2004.

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JimP
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/03

Loc: South Carolina
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Zoomit]
      #5869700 - 05/18/13 04:37 PM

I too have been notified. It should arrive in August. :^)

Jim


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: JimP]
      #5869720 - 05/18/13 04:50 PM

When did you go on the list? I think the time lapse has caused a lot of people to drop off.

-Rich


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Schaden
sage


Reged: 06/30/08

Loc: Sonoran Desert
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5872115 - 05/19/13 06:19 PM

I'm a broke college student but maybe I should get on the list and by the time it's my turn, I will be graduated and probably a few years into my New career. How much of a deposit does AP or Company Seven charge ?

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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Schaden]
      #5872246 - 05/19/13 07:13 PM

Quote:

I'm a broke college student but maybe I should get on the list and by the time it's my turn, I will be graduated and probably a few years into my New career. How much of a deposit does AP or Company Seven charge ?




No deposit until you are notified. Notification has taken about 10 years from the time you put yourself on to the list. In other words, the people getting notified right now put their names on to the list in 2003! Notification means that you are one of the lucky ones to be able to purchase the scope. That takes place about 3-6 months before delivery and will require 1/2 of the total current at the time price to "hold" the scope. The other half will be required just prior to the scope shipping.

Edited by M13 Observer (05/19/13 07:14 PM)


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Schaden
sage


Reged: 06/30/08

Loc: Sonoran Desert
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5872518 - 05/19/13 09:22 PM

Wow. What if the scope you wait for goes out of production ? Or
Next closest thing offered ? If it takes that long I want to be on the list, this is a lifelong hobby and I know I will want an AP APO for my ultimate wide field and grab n go. Probably keep this 8" sct for a long time and in the next couple years upgrade my dob light bucket scope to a 14-16 import and refigure the mirror down the line. I could put a little away every year so when the bill comes due for the AP, it won't require much sacrifice if I save for it over that much time, so I know I will be able to take the opportunity. Would love a 175, but the 130 is far more realistic and portable ! So I guess you don't know the actual price you will pay until they notify you ? I imagine inflation alone will add at least 30% in 10 years.


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Paul G
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Schaden]
      #5872614 - 05/19/13 09:51 PM

Quote:

Wow. What if the scope you wait for goes out of production ? Or
Next closest thing offered ? If it takes that long I want to be on the list, this is a lifelong hobby and I know I will want an AP APO for my ultimate wide field and grab n go. Probably keep this 8" sct for a long time and in the next couple years upgrade my dob light bucket scope to a 14-16 import and refigure the mirror down the line. I could put a little away every year so when the bill comes due for the AP, it won't require much sacrifice if I save for it over that much time, so I know I will be able to take the opportunity. Would love a 175, but the 130 is far more realistic and portable ! So I guess you don't know the actual price you will pay until they notify you ? I imagine inflation alone will add at least 30% in 10 years.




It very well may increase in price, the production of high quality optical glass is very energy intensive so glass prices tend to trend upward with energy prices. But the flip side of it is that used AP scopes typically appreciate in value over the new price so if you ever decide to sell it you'll at least get your money back.


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Paul G]
      #5872697 - 05/19/13 10:24 PM

I imagine inflation alone will add at least 30% in 10 years.

1995 130mm f/6 EDFS w/2.7" focuser = $2995
1999 130mm f/6 EDFS w/2.7" focuser = $3250
2003 130mm f/6 EDFS w/2.7" focuser = $4740
2010 130mm f/6.3 EDFS 2.7" focuser = $5675
2013 130mm f/6.3 EDFS 2.7" focuser = $6275

Looks like 32% for the last 10.


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gnowellsct
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/24/09

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5872726 - 05/19/13 10:38 PM

Well of course the thing to do is sign up on the list and get another scope. Mine other scope was the FS128 but I kinda wish I'd gone for a TEC 140. With my luck my name will come up when my kid starts college. I can't remember when I signed up but it was a while ago, that's for sure.

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chaoscosmos
sage
*****

Reged: 01/26/13

Loc: Mission Viejo CA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5872873 - 05/19/13 11:58 PM

There's a used AP 130 EDT on the mart, sitting there since yesterday. $5K.

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JimP
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/03

Loc: South Carolina
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5873418 - 05/20/13 10:29 AM

Hi Rich,
I cannot remember when I got on the list it has been so long ago. Is there somewhere we can go to find that info on theb AP website?

Jim


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Mike Clemens
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: JimP]
      #5873472 - 05/20/13 10:57 AM

No.. you need to ask them.

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Sgt
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5873529 - 05/20/13 11:30 AM

When i first signed up they sent me an email confirming joining the wait list. So when I see these threads from time to time I search my inbox in hope to remind myself when I joined. I'm always dissappointed I joined later than I thought I did...

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Zoomit
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Sgt]
      #5874674 - 05/20/13 08:54 PM

For fellow Gmail users, I should mention I found my notification in my Spam folder. I almost deleted it along with all the spam. You don't want to do that...

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johnnyha
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Zoomit]
      #5874697 - 05/20/13 09:06 PM

It's just like the cicadas but slightly more often!

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Hermie
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5876311 - 05/21/13 04:48 PM

Schaden,

Dreams are free. Put your name on the list. You don't need to decide until you are notified. But now, your chances are slim because when Roland retires there won't be any more.

Next best/similar? TOA 130,TEC 140, FS128, TV127, APM 130. No particular order, all different, all very good.

Hermie


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JimP
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Hermie]
      #5876447 - 05/21/13 05:39 PM

What do you think about 5" aperture?

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Mike Clemens
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: JimP]
      #5876562 - 05/21/13 06:11 PM

> What do you think about 5" aperture?

With a small focal length, FUN for panning the milky way in a pair of bino's with low power widefields.

With a high focal length.... typically enough planetary resolution to leave me wanting.


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JimP
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5876779 - 05/21/13 07:30 PM

I'll add that 5" is very good for perusing double stars. In fact that is where I intend to put my 130 GT to good use (my copies of Pleasures of the Telescope, the 3rd Ed. of Celestial Objects for Common Telescopes and on and on close at hand). Of course I know nothing of wide field deep sky imaging, an area in which it should excel.

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DeanS
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: JimP]
      #5876818 - 05/21/13 07:50 PM

I have only been on the list since 12/08 so have many years to save up

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davebuechler
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: DeanS]
      #5876862 - 05/21/13 08:20 PM

Having only recently been added to their list, I doubt I will get mine before Roland retires, but I sure hope so!

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Starhawk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: davebuechler]
      #5877292 - 05/22/13 01:28 AM

Roland says this *is* his retirement job.

But glass has gotten to be a problem- yield for glass suppliers drops with the inverse cube of diameter, and they have massive orders for the tiny stuff in smart phone cameras.

email Daleen at astro-physics.com and she will tell you where you are on the list. In the midst of orders, they are busy, but you will get an answer. Notification means the lens set for a telescope has completed all figuring and is ready to go out for coatings. AP is in the hole aready about 1/3 the cost of the scope just on materials, so that is why they ask for 1/2 the price of the scope at notification then will ask for the other half to ship.

What shows up should be perfect. If any misadventure has happened, they are prepared to take whatever action is needed to make it so- up to and including holding reserve OTAs to replace one if some extreme misadventure happens in transit (though they say this has never happened).

As for getting on the list- DO IT if you're going to and get on with your hobby as if it was just a lottery ticket. Get a variety of scopes and have fun. If you get notified, you'll have some real skill from the other gear you have been using. The AP130 EDFGT really does defy belief. If you don't want to wait, there will be people who thought they knew what they were doing when they ordered it, and will open the box and say, "I'm going to need a bigger mount" and decide they really can't deal with it, then list it still in the bag at cost. Then there are idiots who think this is a clever way to make $800 (burning your rep with Roland forever is the actual price of doing that, so you are warned- you won't get notifed again).

-Rich

Edited by Starhawk (05/22/13 01:42 AM)


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JoeBftsplk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5877575 - 05/22/13 09:06 AM

OK, I got my notification. Still haven't responded as I'm on the fence. Little to no time for astronomy these days.

The GM-8 is my largest mount. Is it enough mount for the AP130 EDF?


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Starhawk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: JoeBftsplk]
      #5877675 - 05/22/13 10:03 AM

Barely- the AP 130 EDFGT with tube rings, dovetail, and finder scope weighs 25 lbs; about what a C11 OTA does. So, if a mount can carry a C11, it will carry the AP 130 EDFGT. A CGEM was the first mount I used, and it worked extremely well.

There is a bit of "Wow, what was I thinking?" moment when getting one out of the box. But the performance is a good cure.

-Rich


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spaceydee
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5878815 - 05/22/13 06:35 PM

I got on the list in 2007. Wow how time flies I'm hopefully over half way through waiting lol!!!!

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Mike Clemens
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: spaceydee]
      #5879007 - 05/22/13 08:19 PM

> The GM-8 is my largest mount. Is it enough
> mount for the AP130 EDF?

Visually OK. Not the ideal world but I would sure do it.


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JoeBftsplk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5879072 - 05/22/13 09:04 PM

Thanks for the data point, Starhawk. Was looking at the Atlas and CGEM mounts this morning. Looks like either would suffice if the GM-8 falls short.

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peleuba
scholastic sledgehammer


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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: JoeBftsplk]
      #5880056 - 05/23/13 11:42 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the data point, Starhawk. Was looking at the Atlas and CGEM mounts this morning. Looks like either would suffice if the GM-8 falls short.




I use mine on a Losmandy GM8. Its fine, really nice actually. Better then I thouight it would be on this mount. And, if I use one of my Berlebach tripods its wonderful.

I don't think you'll have an issue.


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Paul G
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: peleuba]
      #5880152 - 05/23/13 12:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks for the data point, Starhawk. Was looking at the Atlas and CGEM mounts this morning. Looks like either would suffice if the GM-8 falls short.




I use mine on a Losmandy GM8. Its fine, really nice actually. Better then I thouight it would be on this mount. And, if I use one of my Berlebach tripods its wonderful.

I don't think you'll have an issue.




Congrats on the GT, Paul! Did you keep your APM?


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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5887706 - 05/27/13 07:19 PM

I got notification last week and made the deposit. I signed up in January 2004.

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Starhawk
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Reged: 09/16/08

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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #5888712 - 05/28/13 11:08 AM

Anyone get theirs on the new run, yet? I am wondering what serial numbers appear.

-Rich


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zawijava
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5889508 - 05/28/13 06:35 PM

My Sales Invoice states an anticipated delivery of May 2013, I went on the list in 2002......not many days left in May but I've not given up hope yet

Tim

Quote:

Anyone get theirs on the new run, yet? I am wondering what serial numbers appear.

-Rich




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Jeff Crilly
member
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5905172 - 06/06/13 02:11 AM

i got on the list in 2004... and also got a ap130gt email recently. I did not hesitate sending in a deposit. I started w/ this hobby in about 1996.. and when i saw the AP gear i figured i'd never be that spendy. Then in 2004 i had some extra bucks, and wanted a decent refractor for astrophotos... got on all the lists, including the mounts... i should have gotten on the notification list earlier.. anyhow, over the years i've dabbled with the very fine TAK optics.. they are nearly just as good as the AP stuff, but the focusers are nicer on the AP stuff in my opinion. There's a few AP130GTs around the local astro community, in addition to other AP gear... pretty nice instrument.. i'd prefer a bit more aperture... like a 160.

As for mounting.. fwiw, a friend mounted the AP130GT on a Skyview-Pro without any problem (for visual use).


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Doug D.
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Jeff Crilly]
      #5905416 - 06/06/13 08:20 AM

So, if I'm following the last few e-mails correctly the current run of GTs began with folks on the notification list from 2002 and at this point is up to 2004? Is that about right for GTs or are they in fact plowing through the list more quickly this run (slightly increased production, still lousy economy, or simply fewer takers)? If there is to be another run it looks like I just might make it next round.....

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RodgerHouTex
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Doug D.]
      #5905792 - 06/06/13 11:25 AM

I hope, I hope.

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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5905883 - 06/06/13 12:25 PM

I put my deposit down in May, expected delivery is August. I have a G11 but want to use a goto CG-5 in the field for visual. I don't see why the CG-5 wouldn't be able to handle it. I have a TV102 on the CG-5 but the AP130GT weighs almost twice as much. Length is about the same. It's very stable with the TV102. The tripod with 2 inch legs feels very solid.

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #5906052 - 06/06/13 01:41 PM

Just keep in mind it weighs as much as a C11.

I made a custom Vixen dovetail (easily the finest machining I have ever done) for mine. I opened the box, picked up the OTA, and said, "I'm going to need a bigger mount."

I am quite interested in what SNs are shipping. It will be on your invoice and the outside of the box. AP knows who has what...

-Rich


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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5906087 - 06/06/13 02:00 PM

Celestron ships the C11 on a CG-5.

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t.r.
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Loc: Upstate NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #5906109 - 06/06/13 02:09 PM

Quote:

I put my deposit down in May, expected delivery is August. I have a G11 but want to use a goto CG-5 in the field for visual. I don't see why the CG-5 wouldn't be able to handle it. I have a TV102 on the CG-5 but the AP130GT weighs almost twice as much. Length is about the same. It's very stable with the TV102. The tripod with 2 inch legs feels very solid.




Your reasoning is spot on...I've used the Gran Turismo on the ASGT (CG5 Goto) since 2008. I binoview, use 2" 100 degree eyepieces and mount the C11 happily on it too! My GT weighs in at 22lbs with accessories, far less than a C11 loaded. It will be fine for visual use. IF, if, if you subscribe to the theory that a scope can't MOVE AT ALL when you touch the focuser, you best look elsewhere or your OCD will never let you enjoy this combination. I could care less if a scope vibrates for a second while I turn the knob. I don't image and a wiggle doesn't ruin the night for me. For some, they would huff and puff and throw in the towel!


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zawijava
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 10/06/07

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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5906536 - 06/06/13 06:00 PM

On May 31 I received an email from Daleen saying they were in the final stages of assembly of my 130GT, so final payment went out the next day......won't be long now! -Tim

Quote:

My Sales Invoice states an anticipated delivery of May 2013, I went on the list in 2002......not many days left in May but I've not given up hope yet

Tim

Quote:

Anyone get theirs on the new run, yet? I am wondering what serial numbers appear.

-Rich







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Brooklynheights
member


Reged: 06/02/13

Loc: New York
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5908431 - 06/07/13 05:40 PM

I also had to back away from an order. I don't know...Maybe AP should employ grief counselors. I placed an order for the 130 with Company 7 but that was at ONE point in my life; then I recently received a notice that my name had come up, but this time, I couldn't afford it. Why? Because I was at ANOTHER point in my life. It's like some law of astro physics: it isn't so much a measurement of time as it is a measure of distance.
-EB


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zawijava
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Brooklynheights]
      #5921918 - 06/15/13 09:55 AM

2 boxes arriving on tuesday

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5922208 - 06/15/13 12:35 PM

Very cool. Please remember the serial number- it's written on the outside of the box.

-Rich


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Robert Wahlström
newbie


Reged: 06/18/13

Loc: Sweden
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5927096 - 06/18/13 09:34 AM

Nice. I am also waiting for an AP 130 GT in august.

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nicklane1
sage
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Reged: 03/04/08

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: davebuechler]
      #5927281 - 06/18/13 11:12 AM

Quote:

Having only recently been added to their list, I doubt I will get mine before Roland retires, but I sure hope so!



He'll prob never retire...like Warren Buffet.
But if he does, I wonder who will take over?


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nicklane1
sage
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Schaden]
      #5927289 - 06/18/13 11:15 AM

Quote:

I'm a broke college student but maybe I should get on the list and by the time it's my turn, I will be graduated and probably a few years into my New career. How much of a deposit does AP or Company Seven charge ?




Do it,you will have much more than 10 years to save for the required deposit. Plus they take credit cards.


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nicklane1
sage
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5927294 - 06/18/13 11:19 AM

Quote:

I imagine inflation alone will add at least 30% in 10 years.

1995 130mm f/6 EDFS w/2.7" focuser = $2995
1999 130mm f/6 EDFS w/2.7" focuser = $3250
2003 130mm f/6 EDFS w/2.7" focuser = $4740
2010 130mm f/6.3 EDFS 2.7" focuser = $5675
2013 130mm f/6.3 EDFS 2.7" focuser = $6275

Looks like 32% for the last 10.




Yes,and although expensive, it is still a good investment both as a quality product and financially.


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t.r.
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: nicklane1]
      #5927340 - 06/18/13 11:40 AM

Just like the Stradivarius, when Rolando is done, the AP scopes crafted by the master will follow a similar appreciation...take it to the bank.

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JoeBftsplk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5927362 - 06/18/13 11:49 AM

Mine was scheduled for delivery in August, when I confirmed my intent to purchase. Because of an upcoming trip (begins last week of August), I asked for shipment no earlier than 15 Sept., which AP agreed to.

Any drawback to asking for a delayed shipment?


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: nicklane1]
      #5927487 - 06/18/13 12:57 PM

Roland is doing his retirement job, now. He had a full career before starting AP, and does this because he enjoys it. It's the reason why he sells the scopes and mounts at production cost (and if you have any doubt he's doing it at cost, check out what Perkin Elmer or Newport charge for anything remotely similar).

And that's why the fates of these scopes are personal for him- they're a labor of love made available for those who love the hobby to be able to have good gear they otherwise couldn't afford. When someone flips one, it's a betrayal of trust. I know some will be thinking of writing back to me about market forces; from talking to Roland personally, I know that simply does not enter into the equation. If he wanted to go for cash, he'd do work by the job for totally different customers who would be looking to shove cash in his hand for priority. But we'd never see a telescope out of a shop doing that. His wife keeps the business whole, and keeps the various parts of the shop on task and running.

BTW, that's why Internet Telescope Exchange disappeared- the fellow running it was earning too much from non-astronomy work to ignore it.

From Roland's description, he enjoys what he is doing and will stay at it until he is physically unable to. If he sends you a scope, you need to understand you are at the tail end of an experiment; he's waiting to see what you will do with it to make the world a better place.

And when you own one, a lot of things change. First, the idea of doing outreach with it will be terrifying. After all, what would you do if something happened to it? But the truth is people have been universally well behaved at every star party I have ever been to. An AP scope is unusual and only a few people will know what is. The other thing I have noticed is my previous behavior of wanting to run around to get a look through a better scope is dead; there is no better glass than what I brought. And I am there because I know I waited 9 years for the scope; 99% of the people there won't get a look through something that good unless I arrange for it to happen. And that's the responsibility side.

If it weren't for just a couple of people, nothing like this would exist on this earth, and the quality of the images is concrete proof our universe is real and immediately around us. I've done direct comparisons between a C14 and a C8 where dozens of others had the same chance, and it isn't even remotely close; the AP 130 EDFGT is in a totally different performance regime.

Anyway, I'd like to know the serial number. There appear to be over twice as many AP 130 EDFGTs in the field as any other 5" class APO.

-Rich

Quote:

Quote:

Having only recently been added to their list, I doubt I will get mine before Roland retires, but I sure hope so!



He'll prob never retire...like Warren Buffet.
But if he does, I wonder who will take over?




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zawijava
scholastic sledgehammer
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5928726 - 06/19/13 07:01 AM Attachment (39 downloads)

It's here, better pics after First Light this evening. Looks like the 130GT and AVX are a fine match! A nice touch was the note inside the case from my friend George Whitney at AP....he used to be a Maine'ah

Quote:

2 boxes arriving on tuesday




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zawijava
scholastic sledgehammer
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5928727 - 06/19/13 07:02 AM Attachment (32 downloads)

Quote:

It's here, better pics after First Light this evening. Looks like the 130GT and AVX are a fine match! A nice touch was the note inside the case from my friend George Whitney at AP....he used to be a Maine'ah

Quote:

2 boxes arriving on tuesday







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zawijava
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 10/06/07

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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5928728 - 06/19/13 07:03 AM Attachment (35 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

It's here, better pics after First Light this evening. Looks like the 130GT and AVX are a fine match! A nice touch was the note inside the case from my friend George Whitney at AP....he used to be a Maine'ah

Quote:

2 boxes arriving on tuesday










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t.r.
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5928763 - 06/19/13 07:54 AM

Congrats!

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JimP
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/03

Loc: South Carolina
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5928796 - 06/19/13 08:37 AM

Your AP 130 GT is a Gorgeous work of Art!! Congratulations!
Mine is due in August. Yahoo!@!

best,

Jim


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: JimP]
      #5928881 - 06/19/13 09:57 AM

Congratulations!

What's the SN?

-Rich


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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5928924 - 06/19/13 10:18 AM

Hey Rich - great post above. Couldn't agree more. And congratulations on your new scope zawijava!

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RodgerHouTex
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5928955 - 06/19/13 10:35 AM

Really? A 5 inch scope directly compared to a 14 inch and an 8 inch and it wasn't even close? You're kidding, right?

If you're serious, and I doubt it, then those were obviously the worst two scopes ever made. I have both, and my 8se and C14 are optically perfect. And while I really like my EON 120, it doesn't come close to either on resolution, light gathering ability, etc.

Please, tell me you weren't serious.


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t.r.
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5928964 - 06/19/13 10:40 AM

Well Rodger, from my own experience, in a direct head to head comparison with a cave 16" on an average night, several times, several experienced club members agreed that my Gran Turismo had the better image of Jupiter. Really. It can happen on some nights. This is nothing new and has been reported by others using apo refractors as small as 92mm often enough. And to be fair, my C11 blows away my Gran Turismo on Jupiter a few times a year. Really.

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ManuelJ
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Reged: 12/19/05

Loc: Madrid, Spain
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5928991 - 06/19/13 11:00 AM

Quote:

Really? A 5 inch scope directly compared to a 14 inch and an 8 inch and it wasn't even close? You're kidding, right?

If you're serious, and I doubt it, then those were obviously the worst two scopes ever made. I have both, and my 8se and C14 are optically perfect. And while I really like my EON 120, it doesn't come close to either on resolution, light gathering ability, etc.

Please, tell me you weren't serious.




Yes, there are occasions where a 5 inch can blow away a 14 inch:

- You didn't remove the cover of the 14
- You put a heater directly to the primary mirror
- You forgot to collimate it
- 1 full wave of SA and astigmatism



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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5929005 - 06/19/13 11:08 AM

I am quite serious. Try it. You will be surprised by the results.

-Rich

Quote:

Really? A 5 inch scope directly compared to a 14 inch and an 8 inch and it wasn't even close? You're kidding, right?

If you're serious, and I doubt it, then those were obviously the worst two scopes ever made. I have both, and my 8se and C14 are optically perfect. And while I really like my EON 120, it doesn't come close to either on resolution, light gathering ability, etc.

Please, tell me you weren't serious.




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EricCCD
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5929039 - 06/19/13 11:23 AM

Quote:

It's here, better pics after First Light this evening. Looks like the 130GT and AVX are a fine match! A nice touch was the note inside the case from my friend George Whitney at AP....he used to be a Maine'ah





Congratulations! Now that's what I call a personal touch!

Eric


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5929108 - 06/19/13 12:09 PM

and as an owner of multiple high end refractors (smaller, equivalent and larger), and a few high quality reflector telescopes, sorry, no it won't. A 5 inch telescope is a 5 inch telescope. The AP130 is a very nice 5 inch telescope but it cannot defy the laws of physics. In almost every situation I can imagine within reason, other than extreme low power wide-field viewing or under the most abominable of seeing conditions, a good to excellent C-14 or a 16" Newtonian will annihilate the views through a 5" refractor. Where the 5" shines is that it is VERY portable in comparison, is highly configurable for multiple uses, and will provide a very pleasing high contrast view. People use it for portable daylight wildlife and landscape viewing and photography with unipods or alt-az tripods, solar viewing and photography with alt-az and equatorial mounts, as well as the primary designed purpose of astronomical viewing and photography with both alt-az and equatorial mounts. It has enough light gathering capacity and aperture to provide decent resolution and allow for good use of magnification. But don't put it side by side with my 16" Newt under good to excellent seeing conditions. I have. Friends of mine also have with their 8" Dobsonian, 10" Mewlon and 12.5" Dobsonian scopes, all of which have superb optics and are well collimated and cared for. While the views through the 130 were very nice indeed and we could see an exquisite view of Io and Callisto transiting Jupiter, with the smaller reflectors we could see sharp contrasty views of the disk edges of the moons against Jupiter's cloud tops. As aperture increased up to the 16" could we discern some mottled detail on each of the moons themselves. I really wished for some more focal length that night, or maybe a very high quality 20 or 24".

Bottom line is that a really nice 5" refractor is better than a 4 inch refractor of the same quality but quickly loses ground to bigger telescopes under reasonable seeing conditions. If the seeing is bad enough that the much larger scopes views are really suffering (even with patient waiting for the best moments available), the smaller scopes suffer as well, you are probably using much lower magnifications and can't see it as much.

In summary the 5" telescope is the perfect compromise between portability and aperture so one might as well get the best they can afford in this range, but it doesn't work miracles.


Quote:

I am quite serious. Try it. You will be surprised by the results.

-Rich


Quote:

Really? A 5 inch scope directly compared to a 14 inch and an 8 inch and it wasn't even close? You're kidding, right?

If you're serious, and I doubt it, then those were obviously the worst two scopes ever made. I have both, and my 8se and C14 are optically perfect. And while I really like my EON 120, it doesn't come close to either on resolution, light gathering ability, etc.

Please, tell me you weren't serious.







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nicklane1
sage
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Reged: 03/04/08

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5929112 - 06/19/13 12:11 PM

Quote:

I am quite serious. Try it. You will be surprised by the results.

-Rich

Quote:

Really? A 5 inch scope directly compared to a 14 inch and an 8 inch and it wasn't even close? You're kidding, right?

If you're serious, and I doubt it, then those were obviously the worst two scopes ever made. I have both, and my 8se and C14 are optically perfect. And while I really like my EON 120, it doesn't come close to either on resolution, light gathering ability, etc.

Please, tell me you weren't serious.







It might seem to defy the laws of physics, but it is possible for a small refractor to out perform a larger non-refractor on planets.

Some time ago, in average seeing, my buddy and I compared my Tak FS78 with his 18" obsession. while the obsession was absolutely amazing on DSOs, the 3" was close or slightly sharper on planets and the moon. The image on the tak was smaller, but just seemed to pop out of the background.
Could it be a psychological phenomenon?


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Fomalhaut
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Reged: 08/16/08

Loc: Switzerland
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5929133 - 06/19/13 12:30 PM

If I were allowed to just have one scope, and after more than 50 years of observing (and two C8s plus one Mewlon by the way) I clearly state that I would prefer an AP130 GT above every amateur catadioptric or Cass on earth. And I also know exactly why so. But here is too little space available to list all reasons .

Chris


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: nicklane1]
      #5929143 - 06/19/13 12:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I am quite serious. Try it. You will be surprised by the results.

-Rich

Quote:

Really? A 5 inch scope directly compared to a 14 inch and an 8 inch and it wasn't even close? You're kidding, right?

If you're serious, and I doubt it, then those were obviously the worst two scopes ever made. I have both, and my 8se and C14 are optically perfect. And while I really like my EON 120, it doesn't come close to either on resolution, light gathering ability, etc.

Please, tell me you weren't serious.







It might seem to defy the laws of physics, but it is possible for a small refractor to out perform a larger non-refractor on planets.

Some time ago, in average seeing, my buddy and I compared my Tak FS78 with his 18" obsession. while the obsession was absolutely amazing on DSOs, the 3" was close or slightly sharper on planets and the moon. The image on the tak was smaller, but just seemed to pop out of the background.
Could it be a psychological phenomenon?




Contrast. The refractor has better overall contrast, and the sky background appears black since the aperture is so small. For actual image quality the 18" should have stomped the little refractor into the ground. What looks like a Galilean dot in the little refractor should have looked like a reasonably sized disk in the big reflector. Plato should have looked like a featureless dark grey plain in the Tak but the 18" should have been able to throw up some views of craters on the floor if the timing was right.

Now back to the AP130 . . . a serial number would be nice to know, even if it doesn't have the last digit. Not for any nefarious reasons but just to see approximately how many AP130GT's have hit the street so far. I'm guessing in the 6xx plus range.


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Fomalhaut]
      #5929182 - 06/19/13 01:04 PM

Quote:

If I were alled to just have one scope, and after more than 50 years of observing (and two C8s plus one Mewlon by the way) I clearly state that I would prefer an AP130 GT above every amateur catadioptric or Cass on earth. And I also know exactly why so. But here is too little space available to list all reasons .

Chris




1) no one is talking about having just one scope here, but I would agree that a 5" refractor is a sweet spot - as I already explicitly said. An extremely high quality 4" such as an AP Traveler or TEC110FL is another if one is leaning more to the portability end of things. The AP155 almost opens up a whole new world visually, isn't that much of a jump from the AP130 as far as portability goes, and will run very well on the same support equipment as I use for the Traveler or AP130, albeit not for astro-photography. As one who has traveled fairly extensively with telescopes, I can say that the AP130 sized telescope is definitely a difficult piece to move. The optics are simple but transporting the rest of the support structure is a real PITA. Even dropping back to the AP Traveler was difficult. The easiest to travel with has been, and remains to be, the the Stowaway or the Sky90 with a TakSPII mount on a Gitzo carbon fiber tripod. Scope with me in carry-on and the rest in my one piece of stowed luggage.

2) whether the AP130GT is THE ultimate 5" telescope is debatable. There is also the AP130EDF, the AP130EDT, the TAK130, the Zeiss APQ 130, etc, all of which are outstanding extremely high end telescopes.

3) there is lots of room here to say exactly what you think both positive and negative and, most importantly, WHY.


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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5929184 - 06/19/13 01:04 PM

I am getting my AP130 GT in August. I signed up in 2004. My guess is the shipments in August are the last shipments this year. Does anyone know if the 130GT will continue or is AP planning another design for the future?

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5929199 - 06/19/13 01:14 PM

Thought the same. And I've got two scopes in inventory which should shame the AP 130 EDFGT with 3" and 6" larger diameter. And in practice, they don't even get out of the driveway in comparison. Sure, they can sear the retina with energy, but the detail and contrast just aren't there.

And there is a very good physical reason for this- the Frei radius strongly favors 5" scopes over 8" or larger ones. Sure, if we get the scopes into orbit the larger aperture will assuredly show more.

On the ground, the odds favor the 130, and not by a little bit.

-Rich

Quote:

and as an owner of multiple high end refractors (smaller, equivalent and larger), and a few high quality reflector telescopes, sorry, no it won't. A 5 inch telescope is a 5 inch telescope. The AP130 is a very nice 5 inch telescope but it cannot defy the laws of physics. In almost every situation I can imagine within reason, other than extreme low power wide-field viewing or under the most abominable of seeing conditions, a good to excellent C-14 or a 16" Newtonian will annihilate the views through a 5" refractor. Where the 5" shines is that it is VERY portable in comparison, is highly configurable for multiple uses, and will provide a very pleasing high contrast view. People use it for portable daylight wildlife and landscape viewing and photography with unipods or alt-az tripods, solar viewing and photography with alt-az and equatorial mounts, as well as the primary designed purpose of astronomical viewing and photography with both alt-az and equatorial mounts. It has enough light gathering capacity and aperture to provide decent resolution and allow for good use of magnification. But don't put it side by side with my 16" Newt under good to excellent seeing conditions. I have. Friends of mine also have with their 8" Dobsonian, 10" Mewlon and 12.5" Dobsonian scopes, all of which have superb optics and are well collimated and cared for. While the views through the 130 were very nice indeed and we could see an exquisite view of Io and Callisto transiting Jupiter, with the smaller reflectors we could see sharp contrasty views of the disk edges of the moons against Jupiter's cloud tops. As aperture increased up to the 16" could we discern some mottled detail on each of the moons themselves. I really wished for some more focal length that night, or maybe a very high quality 20 or 24".

Bottom line is that a really nice 5" refractor is better than a 4 inch refractor of the same quality but quickly loses ground to bigger telescopes under reasonable seeing conditions. If the seeing is bad enough that the much larger scopes views are really suffering (even with patient waiting for the best moments available), the smaller scopes suffer as well, you are probably using much lower magnifications and can't see it as much.

In summary the 5" telescope is the perfect compromise between portability and aperture so one might as well get the best they can afford in this range, but it doesn't work miracles.


Quote:

I am quite serious. Try it. You will be surprised by the results.

-Rich


Quote:

Really? A 5 inch scope directly compared to a 14 inch and an 8 inch and it wasn't even close? You're kidding, right?

If you're serious, and I doubt it, then those were obviously the worst two scopes ever made. I have both, and my 8se and C14 are optically perfect. And while I really like my EON 120, it doesn't come close to either on resolution, light gathering ability, etc.

Please, tell me you weren't serious.










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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #5929205 - 06/19/13 01:16 PM

Quote:

I am getting my AP130 GT in August. I signed up in 2004. My guess is the shipments in August are the last shipments this year. Does anyone know if the 130GT will continue or is AP planning another design for the future?




Congratulations on the 130GT!

While no-one "knows" for sure, Roland has stated many times that he will continue to produce the AP130GT for the foreseeable future. In fact he explicitly states that building this telescope IS his retirement plan and that it is highly unlikely that he will produce any other major "runs" of telescopes due to suitable glass acquisition issues. He has been making one-offs now and then as of late; the most recent of which is the f/8 305mm Mak-Cass.


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nicklane1
sage
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Reged: 03/04/08

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5929210 - 06/19/13 01:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If I were alled to just have one scope, and after more than 50 years of observing (and two C8s plus one Mewlon by the way) I clearly state that I would prefer an AP130 GT above every amateur catadioptric or Cass on earth. And I also know exactly why so. But here is too little space available to list all reasons .

Chris




1) no one is talking about having just one scope here, but I would agree that a 5" refractor is a sweet spot - as I already explicitly said. An extremely high quality 4" such as an AP Traveler or TEC110FL is another if one is leaning more to the portability end of things. The AP155 almost opens up a whole new world visually, isn't that much of a jump from the AP130 as far as portability goes, and will run very well on the same support equipment as I use for the Traveler or AP130, albeit not for astro-photography. As one who has traveled fairly extensively with telescopes, I can say that the AP130 sized telescope is definitely a difficult piece to move. The optics are simple but transporting the rest of the support structure is a real PITA. Even dropping back to the AP Traveler was difficult. The easiest to travel with has been, and remains to be, the the Stowaway or the Sky90 with a TakSPII mount on a Gitzo carbon fiber tripod. Scope with me in carry-on and the rest in my one piece of stowed luggage.

2) whether the AP130GT is THE ultimate 5" telescope is debatable. There is also the AP130EDF, the AP130EDT, the TAK130, the Zeiss APQ 130, etc, all of which are outstanding extremely high end telescopes.

3) there is lots of room here to say exactly what you think both positive and negative and, most importantly, WHY.




So M13, if you could take either a C11 or an AP 130GT on a deserted island, which would it be?


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5929242 - 06/19/13 01:29 PM

Thinking back on it, when I took astronomy from Professor Nye at the University of Minnesota back in the day, he had an oft-repeated rule of thumb my young self rebelled against and was sure was complete hooey:

"Atmospheric seeing limits ground based resolution to the equivalent of a 5" refractor for any telescope." When pressed on this, he said you can do a little better in some cases, such as going to an 18,000 ft. peak in the Atacama desert, or even rare still nights. But if you are planning to achieve certain observational results to prove something, that's all you can count on getting.

I, of course, thought this was absurd. And here I am with a stable of 10 scopes from 66mm all the way to 11" and apparently I'll damned if I can produce a photo to prove him wrong. I'm at the point where if it weren't for hyperstar that C11 would get listed this afternoon, and the C8 is around because I think my kids should get a chance to play with one.

However, my lowly C5 has, on three (3) occasions in New Orleans and twice here in Tucson produced jaw-dropping planetary images on cold clear nights when the stars grew still all the way to the horizon.

As it turns out in Tucson, it seems if you are willing to wait up to past 11PM, most nights have radical improvements in seeing. And in those conditions the AP 130 EDFGT leaves one suddenly realizing they are drooling on their foot after staring at an image for 20 minutes and losing all track of time.

BTW, I am guessing the SN is close to 450. We'll see who has a better guess at how many are around.

-Rich


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RodgerHouTex
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: nicklane1]
      #5929685 - 06/19/13 05:00 PM

And for our next act we have a 3 inch telescope beating an 18 inch on planets.

Have you guys ever heard of a cognitive bias called post purchase rationalization?

Unbelieveable.


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5929734 - 06/19/13 05:28 PM

"Atmospheric seeing limits ground based resolution to the equivalent of a 5" refractor for any telescope."

call me skeptic : )


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: nicklane1]
      #5929735 - 06/19/13 05:28 PM

Quote:


So M13, if you could take either a C11 or an AP 130GT on a deserted island, which would it be?




I would take my AP180EDF or my AP175EDF.

If I absolutely had to choose between a C-11 Edge with excellent optics and an AP130, and I didn't have to cart it around all over the place, I'd take the C-11. This assumes an AP900 or preferably an AP1100 mount on a solid pier or tripod.


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Malabargold
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Reged: 07/15/12

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5929764 - 06/19/13 05:46 PM

Quote:

And for our next act we have a 3 inch telescope beating an 18 inch on planets.

Have you guys ever heard of a cognitive bias called post purchase rationalization?

Unbelieveable.





Oh its believable. My Stowaway f7's routinely trump much larger scopes.
The world is full of mediocre optics and less than perfect seeing.


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5929782 - 06/19/13 05:53 PM

Quote:


As it turns out in Tucson, it seems if you are willing to wait up to past 11PM, most nights have radical improvements in seeing. And in those conditions the AP 130 EDFGT leaves one suddenly realizing they are drooling on their foot after staring at an image for 20 minutes and losing all track of time.

BTW, I am guessing the SN is close to 450. We'll see who has a better guess at how many are around.

-Rich




I would certainly agree that the seeing improves most nights. This is directly a result of the rapid cooling in the evening once the sun slides down over the western horizon of the Silver Bell - Waterman - Pescadero mountain chain. The desert cooling eventually slows and stabilizes as the ground - air temperature differential minimizes as one approaches midnight. From midnight to around 4AM the seeing can occasionally be exquisite as the evening winds also drop off but sometimes there are even cooler breezes coming off the mountains and sliding down into the valley bottoms messing it up. BTW, it isn't restricted to an AP telescope, let alone an AP130GT. Any decent telescope will work better with better seeing.
Of course, that goes out the window for the next few months now that the summer monsoon season rapidly approaches :-)

I figure that Roland has been making a run of ~120 of them each year for the past 6 years (minus one year it seems he skipped while making the 175's) so that is why I went with 600+.

Edited by M13 Observer (06/19/13 06:09 PM)


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nicklane1
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #5929799 - 06/19/13 06:01 PM

Quote:

And for our next act we have a 3 inch telescope beating an 18 inch on planets.

Have you guys ever heard of a cognitive bias called post purchase rationalization?

Unbelieveable.




I couldn't tell the difference as a newbie. They both looked great. So my opinion of the views didn't/doesn't count. However, the owner of the 18" was amazed at the TAK. He was a very experienced observer. So your theory in this is case is debunked.


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Malabargold]
      #5929801 - 06/19/13 06:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And for our next act we have a 3 inch telescope beating an 18 inch on planets.

Have you guys ever heard of a cognitive bias called post purchase rationalization?

Unbelieveable.





Oh its believable. My Stowaway f7's routinely trump much larger scopes.
The world is full of mediocre optics and less than perfect seeing.




and now for something completely off-topic . . .

Those f7 Stowaways have got to be magic then. My f4.9 works pretty much like the 92mm scope it is. A seal must have broken and the magic smoke must have managed to get out. I wonder if I could send it back to AP and have it refilled?


Edited by M13 Observer (06/19/13 06:08 PM)


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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5929812 - 06/19/13 06:12 PM

I have a Televue TV102, which gives me pretty good views. The focal length of the AP130GT is about the same so I will be doing a comparison when the AP comes in August. I am very curious to see how much better the images of Saturn will look. It should certainly be brighter. I notice I get more color when viewing Saturn through my C8 as compared to the TV102 but sharpness does not seem to be much different.

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Mike Clemens
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #5929828 - 06/19/13 06:19 PM

I have observed side by side with TV102 and AP130 on Saturn. The AP130 view is noticeably more correct color to my eyes.

On the Moon side by side the color difference was dramatic, especially if you stepped back and looked at the Moon in the exit pupil glowing in both scopes eyepieces. The TV102 was yellow.

If you only have a TV102 your brain will color correct the view to white just fine.


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zawijava
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5929833 - 06/19/13 06:24 PM

The Serial Number(?) hand written on the box my 130 came in is:

13063-410....I'm assuming this means 130mm f/6.3 OTA #410

First light this evening, skies are looking really nice Will take some pics after all is setup.

Tim

Quote:

I figure that Roland has been making a run of ~120 of them each year for the past 6 years (minus one year it seems he skipped while making the 175's) so that is why I went with 600+.




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nicklane1
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5929837 - 06/19/13 06:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:


So M13, if you could take either a C11 or an AP 130GT on a deserted island, which would it be?




I would take my AP180EDF or my AP175EDF.

If I absolutely had to choose between a C-11 Edge with excellent optics and an AP130, and I didn't have to cart it around all over the place, I'd take the C-11. This assumes an AP900 or preferably an AP1100 mount on a solid pier or tripod.




I thought the idea was that any Celestron/Meade etc Cass with larger aperture would out perform a smaller refractor.

So, why pick the AP 180 over a C11?

Or why not choose a non edge C11 without the "excellent optics" qualification? Aperture wins, no?

Not trying to be facetious, just curious.


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Starhawk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5929872 - 06/19/13 06:54 PM

Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? I started trying to prove it wrong by looking at Mars in a C5 while a C11 was on it at the same time. The plan was simple; Find details in the 11 which are not present in the 5.

-Rich

Quote:

"Atmospheric seeing limits ground based resolution to the equivalent of a 5" refractor for any telescope."

call me skeptic : )




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Starhawk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5929882 - 06/19/13 06:59 PM

Thank you, Tim! Yes, you have interpreted it correctly.

In return, 13063-315 was sent to me in March, 2011.

He orders glass in sets of matched blanks with 100 kits per run. There is one more run between us, so it seems maybe 80 units per run on average get completed successfully.

-Rich

Quote:

The Serial Number(?) hand written on the box my 130 came in is:

13063-410....I'm assuming this means 130mm f/6.3 OTA #410

First light this evening, skies are looking really nice Will take some pics after all is setup.

Tim

Quote:

I figure that Roland has been making a run of ~120 of them each year for the past 6 years (minus one year it seems he skipped while making the 175's) so that is why I went with 600+.







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Starhawk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5929888 - 06/19/13 07:04 PM

BTW, take it out tonight and look at the moon. Have a selection of eyepieces handy.

-Rich


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: nicklane1]
      #5929890 - 06/19/13 07:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


So M13, if you could take either a C11 or an AP 130GT on a deserted island, which would it be?




I would take my AP180EDF or my AP175EDF.

If I absolutely had to choose between a C-11 Edge with excellent optics and an AP130, and I didn't have to cart it around all over the place, I'd take the C-11. This assumes an AP900 or preferably an AP1100 mount on a solid pier or tripod.




I thought the idea was that any Celestron/Meade etc Cass with larger aperture would out perform a smaller refractor.






Nonsense. High quality unobstructed optics of equivalent or greater aperture will always win. You won't see any polished garbage can lids on any mountain top in the world. Only the best possible optics available. If aperture was the only criteria they would already have telescopes with apertures of hundreds of meters and the surface accuracy of, well, a garbage can lid.

Quote:


So, why pick the AP 180 over a C11?





Because the AP180 is an unobstructed system and because I don't have an AP206. The C-11 has a 30% by size chunk of reflective glass in the middle of it that really does make a difference.

Quote:


Or why not choose a non edge C11 without the "excellent optics" qualification? Aperture wins, no?





Because excellent optics only can compete with excellent optics. On those few and far between super exquisite nights of superb seeing, I want a system that will deliver. Most average nights, it doesn't matter a whole lot. It is only on the best of nights that a really good quality scope will stand out from the "average" telescope.

Quote:


Not trying to be facetious, just curious.




Edited by M13 Observer (06/19/13 08:41 PM)


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M13 Observer
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Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #5929892 - 06/19/13 07:07 PM

Quote:

The Serial Number(?) hand written on the box my 130 came in is:

13063-410....I'm assuming this means 130mm f/6.3 OTA #410

First light this evening, skies are looking really nice Will take some pics after all is setup.

Tim

Quote:

I figure that Roland has been making a run of ~120 of them each year for the past 6 years (minus one year it seems he skipped while making the 175's) so that is why I went with 600+.







Wow, only in the 400's! I certainly thought it would be more by now. Thank you for the information.


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Starhawk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #5929972 - 06/19/13 08:09 PM

It's still about twice as many as there are NP 127s.

-Rich


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5930029 - 06/19/13 08:44 PM

Quote:

It's still about twice as many as there are NP 127s.

-Rich




And then add in the 600 or so prior AP130EDF and EDT's. Around 1000 AP130 refractors out there.


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Peter Natscher
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Reged: 03/28/06

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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5930185 - 06/19/13 10:13 PM

So that's why I've seen Encke's Division with my 20" Zambuto Dob at 600X! I'll try it with a 5" scope the next time.

Quote:

"Atmospheric seeing limits ground based resolution to the equivalent of a 5" refractor for any telescope."

call me skeptic : )




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Peter Natscher
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5930207 - 06/19/13 10:21 PM

I believe all those who think any 5" will outperform larger aperture quality optic observe from a location that's totally inferior and they are so used to it, they think it's a universal law. What about all those observations from WSP made with larger optics? Routinely, my favorite central California observing location offers sub-arc seeing that allows larger Dob's better views over smaller aperture APOs.

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Starhawk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5930500 - 06/20/13 01:22 AM

You should.

-Rich

Quote:

So that's why I've seen Encke's Division with my 20" Zambuto Dob at 600X! I'll try it with a 5" scope the next time.

Quote:

"Atmospheric seeing limits ground based resolution to the equivalent of a 5" refractor for any telescope."

call me skeptic : )







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Starhawk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5930509 - 06/20/13 01:37 AM

I think what's driving this is most observing locations are inferior. And that's kind of the strange point in this, because I have split 1" stars in a C8, and I haven't tried that in a 5" scope. On the other hand, exercises going directly back and forth between a 5" and a larger scope has showed feature identification was clearly easier in the larger telescope, but I have yet to find the feature which is completely absent even up with an 11" scope. So, at do you end up saying about that? I can see how the old rule of thumb would get started. There are a lot of things I have only seen in really big scopes, like the horsehead by eye, or the central star in M57.

The AP 130 EDFGT comes with 1/100 wave glass and a prescription optimized for that batch of glass with amazing class coatings and oil spaced lenses. The contrast is really good, and unavailable elsewhere. It gets a lot out of its aperture. You have to use one to understand.

-Rich

Quote:

I believe all those who think any 5" will outperform larger aperture quality optic observe from a location that's totally inferior and they are so used to it, they think it's a universal law. What about all those observations from WSP made with larger optics? Routinely, my favorite central California observing location offers sub-arc seeing that allows larger Dob's better views over smaller aperture APOs.




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t.r.
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5930765 - 06/20/13 08:09 AM

Quote:

I believe all those who think any 5" will outperform larger aperture quality optic observe from a location that's totally inferior and they are so used to it, they think it's a universal law. What about all those observations from WSP made with larger optics? Routinely, my favorite central California observing location offers sub-arc seeing that allows larger Dob's better views over smaller aperture APOs.




Actually Peter, I think it is the other way around, those blessed with good seeing think it is universal that larger aperture always trumps smaller for planetary. There are at least five CN'ers active in the refractor forum that live in the NE with me under the jet stream and all will tell you that up to about five inches will give you a return on investment for resolving planetary detail most of the time. Going any bigger simply gives a brighter planetary image with larger scale, but with NO additional micro details. If one wants to argue that this helps them see that same detail better, so be it. When I spend money though, I want something additional to be resolved. One CN'er will tell you going any bigger than a 4' apo is senseless. One CN'er in the NE is selling his TEC160FL currently and settling in with an AP130GT. I too, have passed on larger apo aperture even though I have no monetary limit, citing my experience with seeing nothing additional on planets in larger instruments on most nights. Of course, there will be times, but here they are far and few between and the ROI isn't there, but of course, this is subjective. If I were a DSO fanatic then maybe I'd go for the bigger aperture, but I'm a SLAP(solar, lunar and planetary) observer.

In the NE it is hard to justify the extra expense of any larger aperture solely to use on planets here. My GT has even matched the view of Jupiter detail for detail of a TEC180FL and a Meade 178ED. Really. For all of you who live in locales with better seeing, GODSPEED! I too would have the largest apo I could afford if seeing allowed, but here, in the NE it makes little sense to do so for planetary viewing resolution. I'm happy with 5" for planetary. I'm not the only one to conclude this. Starhawk may have been a bit abrupt of his claims about the GT, but I suspect his local seeing is similar to mine and I have to agree with him in principle. Also, those who vehemently defend the larger apo principle seem to always live down range of large bodies of water or in sub-tropic locales...Peter, Mike and Dennis Fell at SpaceAlberta(have you seen his drawings with a 4"apo?!?!?) for example. You guys are truly blessed.

I have read reports where a C6 Sct was resolving better planetary detail from their locale than my APGT...I accept it as fact, can you? There are NO absolutes in this hobby. When anyone reports on the performance of their scope the first thing I look at is their location! So, we are ALL correct, from our perspective. Oh, and anytime someone uses the old..."He has to justify his expense on an apo"...it is a cop-out of an argument. Yes, indeed, my AP130GT can beat a Cave 16" newtonian and a Tinsley 12" cassegrain on planetary detail routinely, here, in *BLEEP* upstate NY skies. Really


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NHRob
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5930785 - 06/20/13 08:28 AM

I agree with Tim. Here in the Northeast,good seeing is as rare as an honest politician!
If I lived in Florida, I'd go with a large Zambuto dob!


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BarrySimon615
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5930848 - 06/20/13 09:04 AM

Quote:

If I were a DSO fanatic then maybe I'd go for the bigger aperture, but I'm a SLAP(solar, lunar and planetary) observer.




"SLAP", I like that! I see a t-shirt in the future, something like "SLAP Happy" bona fide Solar, Lunar and Planetary Observer, with a nice picture.

Barry Simon

PS - for what I do and from where I do it, I am quite happy with my measly AP Star12 ED. I have had larger scopes and sold them all in favor of what gives me a great view and gives me enjoyment when I use it.


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t.r.
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: BarrySimon615]
      #5930864 - 06/20/13 09:14 AM

You can credit our administrator ScottB for coining the term "SLAP"...all T-shirt proceeds should go to him!!!

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bobhen
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Reged: 06/25/05

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5930914 - 06/20/13 09:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I believe all those who think any 5" will outperform larger aperture quality optic observe from a location that's totally inferior and they are so used to it, they think it's a universal law. What about all those observations from WSP made with larger optics? Routinely, my favorite central California observing location offers sub-arc seeing that allows larger Dob's better views over smaller aperture APOs.




Actually Peter, I think it is the other way around, those blessed with good seeing think it is universal that larger aperture always trumps smaller for planetary. There are at least five CN'ers active in the refractor forum that live in the NE with me under the jet stream and all will tell you that up to about five inches will give you a return on investment for resolving planetary detail most of the time. Going any bigger simply gives a brighter planetary image with larger scale, but with NO additional micro details. If one wants to argue that this helps them see that same detail better, so be it. When I spend money though, I want something additional to be resolved. One CN'er will tell you going any bigger than a 4' apo is senseless. One CN'er in the NE is selling his TEC160FL currently and settling in with an AP130GT. I too, have passed on larger apo aperture even though I have no monetary limit, citing my experience with seeing nothing additional on planets in larger instruments on most nights. Of course, there will be times, but here they are far and few between. If I were a DSO fanatic then maybe I'd go for the bigger aperture, but I'm a SLAP(solar, lunar and planetary) observer.

In the NE it is hard to justify the extra expense of any larger aperture solely to use on planets here. My GT has even matched the view of Jupiter detail for detail of a TEC180FL and a Meade 178ED. Really. For all of you who live in locales with better seeing, GODSPEED! I too would have the largest apo I could afford if seeing allowed, but here, in the NE it makes little sense to do so for planetary viewing resolution. I'm happy with 5" for planetary. I'm not the only one to conclude this. Starhawk may have been a bit abrupt of his claims about the GT, but I suspect his local seeing is similar to mine and I have to agree with him in principle. Also, those who vehemently defend the larger apo principle seem to always live down range of large bodies of water or in sub-tropic locales...Peter, Mike and SpaceAlberta for example. You guys are truly blessed. I have read reports where a C6 was resolving better planetary detail from their locale than my APGT...I accept it as fact, can you? There are NO absolutes in this hobby. When anyone reports on the performance of their scope the first thing I look at is their location! Yes, indeed, my AP130GT can beat a Cave 16" newtonian and a Tinsley 12" cassegrain on planetary detail routinely, here, in *BLEEP* upstate NY skies.




Agree. Same here in *BLEEP* PA skies.

Bob


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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5930983 - 06/20/13 10:10 AM

Roland even said that the best scope aperture for planetary observing is in the 7-9" class. Hence, the creation of his 10" Mak-Cass.

Quote:

Quote:

I believe all those who think any 5" will outperform larger aperture quality optic observe from a location that's totally inferior and they are so used to it, they think it's a universal law. What about all those observations from WSP made with larger optics? Routinely, my favorite central California observing location offers sub-arc seeing that allows larger Dob's better views over smaller aperture APOs.




Actually Peter, I think it is the other way around, those blessed with good seeing think it is universal that larger aperture always trumps smaller for planetary. There are at least five CN'ers active in the refractor forum that live in the NE with me under the jet stream and all will tell you that up to about five inches will give you a return on investment for resolving planetary detail most of the time. Going any bigger simply gives a brighter planetary image with larger scale, but with NO additional micro details. If one wants to argue that this helps them see that same detail better, so be it. When I spend money though, I want something additional to be resolved. One CN'er will tell you going any bigger than a 4' apo is senseless. One CN'er in the NE is selling his TEC160FL currently and settling in with an AP130GT. I too, have passed on larger apo aperture even though I have no monetary limit, citing my experience with seeing nothing additional on planets in larger instruments on most nights. Of course, there will be times, but here they are far and few between and the ROI isn't there, but of course, this is subjective. If I were a DSO fanatic then maybe I'd go for the bigger aperture, but I'm a SLAP(solar, lunar and planetary) observer.

In the NE it is hard to justify the extra expense of any larger aperture solely to use on planets here. My GT has even matched the view of Jupiter detail for detail of a TEC180FL and a Meade 178ED. Really. For all of you who live in locales with better seeing, GODSPEED! I too would have the largest apo I could afford if seeing allowed, but here, in the NE it makes little sense to do so for planetary viewing resolution. I'm happy with 5" for planetary. I'm not the only one to conclude this. Starhawk may have been a bit abrupt of his claims about the GT, but I suspect his local seeing is similar to mine and I have to agree with him in principle. Also, those who vehemently defend the larger apo principle seem to always live down range of large bodies of water or in sub-tropic locales...Peter, Mike and SpaceAlberta(have you seen his drawings with a 4"apo?!?!?) for example. You guys are truly blessed.

I have read reports where a C6 Sct was resolving better planetary detail from their locale than my APGT...I accept it as fact, can you? There are NO absolutes in this hobby. When anyone reports on the performance of their scope the first thing I look at is their location! So, we are ALL correct, from our perspective. Oh, and anytime someone uses the old..."He has to justify his expense on an apo"...it is a cop-out of an argument. Yes, indeed, my AP130GT can beat a Cave 16" newtonian and a Tinsley 12" cassegrain on planetary detail routinely, here, in *BLEEP* upstate NY skies. Really




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Peter Natscher
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5930987 - 06/20/13 10:12 AM

The seller of the TEC 160FL told me he sold it primarily because it was a hassle to set up (too heavy and not as portable), not that it gave no better view than his 130EDF-GT.

Quote:

Quote:

I believe all those who think any 5" will outperform larger aperture quality optic observe from a location that's totally inferior and they are so used to it, they think it's a universal law. What about all those observations from WSP made with larger optics? Routinely, my favorite central California observing location offers sub-arc seeing that allows larger Dob's better views over smaller aperture APOs.




Actually Peter, I think it is the other way around, those blessed with good seeing think it is universal that larger aperture always trumps smaller for planetary. There are at least five CN'ers active in the refractor forum that live in the NE with me under the jet stream and all will tell you that up to about five inches will give you a return on investment for resolving planetary detail most of the time. Going any bigger simply gives a brighter planetary image with larger scale, but with NO additional micro details. If one wants to argue that this helps them see that same detail better, so be it. When I spend money though, I want something additional to be resolved. One CN'er will tell you going any bigger than a 4' apo is senseless. One CN'er in the NE is selling his TEC160FL currently and settling in with an AP130GT. I too, have passed on larger apo aperture even though I have no monetary limit, citing my experience with seeing nothing additional on planets in larger instruments on most nights. Of course, there will be times, but here they are far and few between and the ROI isn't there, but of course, this is subjective. If I were a DSO fanatic then maybe I'd go for the bigger aperture, but I'm a SLAP(solar, lunar and planetary) observer.

In the NE it is hard to justify the extra expense of any larger aperture solely to use on planets here. My GT has even matched the view of Jupiter detail for detail of a TEC180FL and a Meade 178ED. Really. For all of you who live in locales with better seeing, GODSPEED! I too would have the largest apo I could afford if seeing allowed, but here, in the NE it makes little sense to do so for planetary viewing resolution. I'm happy with 5" for planetary. I'm not the only one to conclude this. Starhawk may have been a bit abrupt of his claims about the GT, but I suspect his local seeing is similar to mine and I have to agree with him in principle. Also, those who vehemently defend the larger apo principle seem to always live down range of large bodies of water or in sub-tropic locales...Peter, Mike and SpaceAlberta(have you seen his drawings with a 4"apo?!?!?) for example. You guys are truly blessed.

I have read reports where a C6 Sct was resolving better planetary detail from their locale than my APGT...I accept it as fact, can you? There are NO absolutes in this hobby. When anyone reports on the performance of their scope the first thing I look at is their location! So, we are ALL correct, from our perspective. Oh, and anytime someone uses the old..."He has to justify his expense on an apo"...it is a cop-out of an argument. Yes, indeed, my AP130GT can beat a Cave 16" newtonian and a Tinsley 12" cassegrain on planetary detail routinely, here, in *BLEEP* upstate NY skies. Really




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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5931035 - 06/20/13 10:39 AM

A little technical but good information on central obstruction.

www.telescope-optics.net/obstruction.htm


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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5931051 - 06/20/13 10:46 AM

This explains in simpler terms.

www.brayebrookobservatory.org/BrayObsWebSite/HOMEPAGE/forum/c-o%27s.html


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Starhawk
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #5931082 - 06/20/13 11:02 AM

Just a clarification on what I have written:

The C8 and C14 comment is from the Spacefest star party earlier this year where I was set up between a C14 and a C8, and as people walked by they were looking through all three pointed at Saturn. And it was Thomas Bopp who commented, "While we have famously dark skies here in Tucson, our seeing isn't very good." And sure enough, not even the Cassini division was visible early in the evening, but it kept improving and by 11PM it was pretty obvious where the Enke division had to be. But with that seeing, how in the world was a C8 or C14 going to outperform the AP130 EDFGT?

The other part is from Dr. Nye's astronomy class years ago, which was a rule of thumb for the resolving power you should expect to get.

If I were to restate from scratch, I'd say, "The limits of atmospheric seeing are usually within the resolving power of a 5" telescope."

And at home I have had the experience of using little 80mm ED refractors as grab n go scopes, and regularly finding I can take them right up to their magnification limit and can see I could go further with more scope. And then switching to my other grab n go answer, the C5, I can get to the limits of the seeing. But only on a couple occasions have I been able to exhaust it.

So, while I know it is controversial, unfortunately it seems to be true: dragging around something bigger than a 5" scope won't buy you more resolution unless you can find awesome seeing.

-Rich


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Peter Natscher
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Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5931118 - 06/20/13 11:27 AM

For observing planets, using larger aperture (6"-10") buys you image brightness, tonal enhancement, additional color. More photons bring more information. These additional benefits will enhance your planetary observing. It's not a black & white issue concerning detail only. Planetary surface features are made up of shades and tones, not sharp features.

Quote:

Just a clarification on what I have written:

The C8 and C14 comment is from the Spacefest star party earlier this year where I was set up between a C14 and a C8, and as people walked by they were looking through all three pointed at Saturn. And it was Thomas Bopp who commented, "While we have famously dark skies here in Tucson, our seeing isn't very good." And sure enough, not even the Cassini division was visible early in the evening, but it kept improving and by 11PM it was pretty obvious where the Enke division had to be. But with that seeing, how in the world was a C8 or C14 going to outperform the AP130 EDFGT?

The other part is from Dr. Nye's astronomy class years ago, which was a rule of thumb for the resolving power you should expect to get.

If I were to restate from scratch, I'd say, "The limits of atmospheric seeing are usually within the resolving power of a 5" telescope."

And at home I have had the experience of using little 80mm ED refractors as grab n go scopes, and regularly finding I can take them right up to their magnification limit and can see I could go further with more scope. And then switching to my other grab n go answer, the C5, I can get to the limits of the seeing. But only on a couple occasions have I been able to exhaust it.

So, while I know it is controversial, unfortunately it seems to be true: dragging around something bigger than a 5" scope won't buy you more resolution unless you can find awesome seeing.

-Rich




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t.r.
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Loc: Upstate NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5931178 - 06/20/13 12:10 PM

Quote:

The seller of the TEC 160FL told me he sold it primarily because it was a hassle to set up (too heavy and not as portable), not that it gave no better view than his 130EDF-GT




And the seller stated to me the following...
"Yes both a 130GT and a TEC160FL. The performance between the telescopes is noticeable but not dramatic. I find the planetary images in the 160 to be more color saturated. Both telescopes beat the seeing most nights especially when compared to my 8 and 11 inch Zambuto Newtonians. If I could have only one refractor it would be the AP130GT".

Notice that no new detail was mentioned. Thats a lot of money to pay for increased color saturation without additional resolution realized. Notice too that he, as well as myself and others have concluded that the 130 is sufficient, here, in the NE! Peter, I can certainly concede to what you're saying for your conditions...can you not concede to what we are saying about ours? If not, then we are at an empasse'. Even Roland has stated that the AP10 does nothing extra in his skies compared to his AP155 on planetary observing and that it takes southern WSP skies to reveal the extra resolution. Rolands comments about the ideal planetary scope are a generality IMHO, for the average observers conditions. Ours are worse.

In addition, Joe Miele has stated on another thread that his seeing conditions here in the NE didn't allow his TEC180FL to operate at its fullest potential and that his AP160 did as well on planets. No new details were seen and even the color saturation and brightness return looses its appeal for the money spent. He even told another CN'er that their choice to go with the 160 over the 180 was a wise one. Ziggy has stated that the difference between the TEC140 and TEC160 comes down to the cassini division being a little sharper. Yuri says, the only difference is on deep sky objects. Can we all be nuts? Perhaps...but the numbers and reports speak for themselves. Perhaps this is just a "dead horse". Really, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you and respect your position, I'm just trying to get you to see another point of view. If I lived next door to you I'd have a TEC200FL and we could compare the views!

Lastly, I will say this to all owners and potential owners of the AP Gran Turismo telescope...do all you can to get it and keep it. It truly is the "Holy Grail" of apo refractors for a lot of reasons! Those who choose to flip it or sell it have no idea what they really have in their hands...Thee perfect refractor.


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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
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Reged: 11/26/05

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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5931181 - 06/20/13 12:10 PM

Not to mention the additional brightness being so great for binoviewing. Plus the exit pupil (at the same magnification) would be larger than the smaller scope, reducing floaters and enhancing the ergonomics of observing.

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5931358 - 06/20/13 02:02 PM

Set up your AP175 next to anything you like and see if it doesn't show more at 175mm than a mega light bucket does, no matter what you do with its collimation on the average night. I have a C11 I'd freaking love to see outperform my diminutive AP130 EDFGT. But you know what? The GT's bar is way up there, and seeing spots after looking at Saturn isn't helping the C11's performance, despite getting as accurate a collimation as possible and getting it thermalized and testing it out and finding its optics are as good as an SCT can get. But compared to the AP 130, it can't compete on contrast. It can't show more detail. It throws up its hands and quits if there is any turbulence in the sky, whatsoever. So, should I be telling people how awesome that scope is compared to an AP130 EDFGT which is happy to put up fantastic images any night I'm not looking at cloud cover?

Maybe I'll find that magic sky the C11 wants, somewhere. I've got a full time job and little kids, so taking off on a 1,500 mile road trip to go find it isn't in the cards at the moment. I've heard stories about sub arcsecond seeing on Heliograph Peak over in the Pinaleños, so maybe one day I'll have a chance to haul all the gear over there and see what happens, assuming I can get permission to be up there since it has a communications relay on it.

I'm an engineer, and I work on telescopes for a living, so I'm quite familiar with all of the physics and the reasons big OTAs ought to be taking the wee scopes out to the woodshed. But all the really big scopes have done well on for me is the dim stuff. M57 through a 24" f/5 showed the central star with direct viewing and the ring even showed a hint of red. But the stars were blobs the size of pocket change on the table in front of me; it was pretty obvious it wasn't especially high resolution, even if the brightness had made the hard to-see dim central star obvious. In comparison, the best images of a planet I've ever seen in any telescope was in a hand figured long focal length Newtonian a mere 6" in diameter.

-Rich

Quote:

For observing planets, using larger aperture (6"-10") buys you image brightness, tonal enhancement, additional color. More photons bring more information. These additional benefits will enhance your planetary observing. It's not a black & white issue concerning detail only. Planetary surface features are made up of shades and tones, not sharp features.

Quote:

Just a clarification on what I have written:

The C8 and C14 comment is from the Spacefest star party earlier this year where I was set up between a C14 and a C8, and as people walked by they were looking through all three pointed at Saturn. And it was Thomas Bopp who commented, "While we have famously dark skies here in Tucson, our seeing isn't very good." And sure enough, not even the Cassini division was visible early in the evening, but it kept improving and by 11PM it was pretty obvious where the Enke division had to be. But with that seeing, how in the world was a C8 or C14 going to outperform the AP130 EDFGT?

The other part is from Dr. Nye's astronomy class years ago, which was a rule of thumb for the resolving power you should expect to get.

If I were to restate from scratch, I'd say, "The limits of atmospheric seeing are usually within the resolving power of a 5" telescope."

And at home I have had the experience of using little 80mm ED refractors as grab n go scopes, and regularly finding I can take them right up to their magnification limit and can see I could go further with more scope. And then switching to my other grab n go answer, the C5, I can get to the limits of the seeing. But only on a couple occasions have I been able to exhaust it.

So, while I know it is controversial, unfortunately it seems to be true: dragging around something bigger than a 5" scope won't buy you more resolution unless you can find awesome seeing.

-Rich







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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/23/05

Loc: Virginia
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5931463 - 06/20/13 02:57 PM

Quote:

Lastly, I will say this to all owners and potential owners of the AP Gran Turismo telescope...do all you can to get it and keep it. It truly is the "Holy Grail" of apo refractors for a lot of reasons! Those who choose to flip it or sell it have no idea what they really have in their hands...Thee perfect refractor.




I've wondered about this especially now that I am close on the notifcation list for a GT. If there is another run, I expect to be notified. But I have an AP140EDF - a bit of a rare beast (60 scopes total I think I read on the Yahoo AP group) or perhaps the oddball depending on your perspective (a 140mm oil spaced optic in a 160 OTA - all the weight but less filling!).

Discussions like the one in this thread make me think I should just be content with the 140 - maybe hits an even "better" if heavier sweet spot given the seeing conditions in my neck of the woods. And I should just stop dreaming about a 160-180 class triplet.


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RodgerHouTex
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 06/02/09

Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5931482 - 06/20/13 03:11 PM

A 10 inch Mak-Cas with that HUGE central obstruction? Clearly Roland does not know what he's talking about. Or maybe he does.

Oh and I really got a laugh out of the 1/100 wavelength AP refractor optics. I'm still .


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Cliff C
member


Reged: 02/11/09

Loc: Long Island, NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Doug D.]
      #5931604 - 06/20/13 04:22 PM

Doug,
GO FOR IT! I have both the 130 and the 140. The extra focal length in the 140 is nice for holding focus a bit better and providing a little extra magnification for any given eyepiece but it is a much larger and heavier scope to haul around and mount. If you keep your 140 mounted and the mount is on rollers then that might change the story. My AP-130 can be set up on a William Optics EZ Touch Alt-Atz mount in minutes and it "works" up to about 200 power. The AP-140 on that mount is almost useless. You can also break down the AP-130 for air travel.
Cliff


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Zoomit
sage


Reged: 12/04/06

Loc: Tehachapi, CA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Cliff C]
      #5931712 - 06/20/13 05:26 PM

Quote:

My AP-130 can be set up on a William Optics EZ Touch Alt-Atz mount in minutes and it "works" up to about 200 power.
Cliff




Cliff--Can you comment on what limits it "working" up to only 200x? Is that a local seeing limit, the mount's stability, hand guiding challenges, or ?


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Mike Holland
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/22/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5931720 - 06/20/13 05:31 PM

Quote:

Lastly, I will say this to all owners and potential owners of the AP Gran Turismo telescope...do all you can to get it and keep it. It truly is the "Holy Grail" of apo refractors for a lot of reasons! Those who choose to flip it or sell it have no idea what they really have in their hands...Thee perfect refractor.




Tim,

Any idea of what the flippers are asking for these scopes lately? I'm no longer a member of Astromart, so I don't have access to their numbers. Thanks.

Mike


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Cliff C
member


Reged: 02/11/09

Loc: Long Island, NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Zoomit]
      #5931748 - 06/20/13 05:45 PM

Brandon,
The seeing where I am does limit me to 200x or so on most nights (Many nights 136x with a 6mm is the limit). But past 200x I am making too many adjustments to keep up with a planet. Vibrations settle down quick enough but things move out too fast. It is nice to have at least 20-30 seconds to capture the steadiest moments of seeing. Also, vibrations while focusing at and above 200x make it a bit too difficult to nail that perfect focus. If and when funds allow I would like to purchase a DM-4 or DM-6.
Cliff


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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Cliff C]
      #5931757 - 06/20/13 05:51 PM

Great thread! My FS152 outperforms my 14.5" Zambuto about 90% of nights on planetary here in SoCal. I have made this observation multiple times here on CN and usually, to much skepticism. It's nice to see a thread that gives creedence to this observation. Because quite simply, it's true.

And, as I have stated many times before, on a really exceptional night the 14.5" dob BLOWS AWAY the 6" APO refractor. But on an average night the superior contrast and super crisp view of the APO refractor wins, hand down.


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Zoomit
sage


Reged: 12/04/06

Loc: Tehachapi, CA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Cliff C]
      #5931804 - 06/20/13 06:21 PM

Cliff--Thank you for the mount feedback. I'm in a similar situation and am deciding how to mount my forthcoming 130GT. It sounds like the WO EZ Touch Alt/Az is a little over-stressed with a scope this size.

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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5931815 - 06/20/13 06:25 PM

I though you had great seeing down in Tucson? Would getting high up out of the valley improve your seeing for your larger aperture scope? I know observing from a lower, and heated valley with high mountains around kill seeing until way after midnight. I had that bad experience living in Medford, OR ten years ago with 5-7,000 ft. mountain peaks all around. The +100 degree days during summer would kill seeing until the valley cooled down after midnight. I had to observe at 3am before sunrise to get great seeing.

Quote:

Set up your AP175 next to anything you like and see if it doesn't show more at 175mm than a mega light bucket does, no matter what you do with its collimation on the average night. I have a C11 I'd freaking love to see outperform my diminutive AP130 EDFGT. But you know what? The GT's bar is way up there, and seeing spots after looking at Saturn isn't helping the C11's performance, despite getting as accurate a collimation as possible and getting it thermalized and testing it out and finding its optics are as good as an SCT can get. But compared to the AP 130, it can't compete on contrast. It can't show more detail. It throws up its hands and quits if there is any turbulence in the sky, whatsoever. So, should I be telling people how awesome that scope is compared to an AP130 EDFGT which is happy to put up fantastic images any night I'm not looking at cloud cover?

Maybe I'll find that magic sky the C11 wants, somewhere. I've got a full time job and little kids, so taking off on a 1,500 mile road trip to go find it isn't in the cards at the moment. I've heard stories about sub arcsecond seeing on Heliograph Peak over in the Pinaleños, so maybe one day I'll have a chance to haul all the gear over there and see what happens, assuming I can get permission to be up there since it has a communications relay on it.

I'm an engineer, and I work on telescopes for a living, so I'm quite familiar with all of the physics and the reasons big OTAs ought to be taking the wee scopes out to the woodshed. But all the really big scopes have done well on for me is the dim stuff. M57 through a 24" f/5 showed the central star with direct viewing and the ring even showed a hint of red. But the stars were blobs the size of pocket change on the table in front of me; it was pretty obvious it wasn't especially high resolution, even if the brightness had made the hard to-see dim central star obvious. In comparison, the best images of a planet I've ever seen in any telescope was in a hand figured long focal length Newtonian a mere 6" in diameter.

-Rich

Quote:

For observing planets, using larger aperture (6"-10") buys you image brightness, tonal enhancement, additional color. More photons bring more information. These additional benefits will enhance your planetary observing. It's not a black & white issue concerning detail only. Planetary surface features are made up of shades and tones, not sharp features.

Quote:

Just a clarification on what I have written:

The C8 and C14 comment is from the Spacefest star party earlier this year where I was set up between a C14 and a C8, and as people walked by they were looking through all three pointed at Saturn. And it was Thomas Bopp who commented, "While we have famously dark skies here in Tucson, our seeing isn't very good." And sure enough, not even the Cassini division was visible early in the evening, but it kept improving and by 11PM it was pretty obvious where the Enke division had to be. But with that seeing, how in the world was a C8 or C14 going to outperform the AP130 EDFGT?

The other part is from Dr. Nye's astronomy class years ago, which was a rule of thumb for the resolving power you should expect to get.

If I were to restate from scratch, I'd say, "The limits of atmospheric seeing are usually within the resolving power of a 5" telescope."

And at home I have had the experience of using little 80mm ED refractors as grab n go scopes, and regularly finding I can take them right up to their magnification limit and can see I could go further with more scope. And then switching to my other grab n go answer, the C5, I can get to the limits of the seeing. But only on a couple occasions have I been able to exhaust it.

So, while I know it is controversial, unfortunately it seems to be true: dragging around something bigger than a 5" scope won't buy you more resolution unless you can find awesome seeing.

-Rich










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Peter Natscher
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/06

Loc: Central Coast California
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5931835 - 06/20/13 06:35 PM

Or, maybe your Dob never gets to equilibrate properly if you observe after sunset from a hot driveway? I know that's my problem if I observe at home. I am forced to set up my telescopes on a driveway that's retaining the day's heat while the air 5 ft. up is cooler. Dob's need to be set up on a cool lawn. Yes, from my house, my AP 175 five ft. up operates a lot better than any Dob would because the ground heat isn't affecting it. The Dob's mirror is less than a foot above the radiating heat off of the ground.

Quote:

Great thread! My FS152 outperforms my 14.5" Zambuto about 90% of nights on planetary here in SoCal. I have made this observation multiple times here on CN and usually, to much skepticism and even derision. It's nice to see a thread that gives creedence to this observation. Because quite simply, it's true.

And, as I have stated many times before, on a really exceptional night the 14.5" dob BLOWS AWAY the 6" APO refractor. But on an average night the superior contrast and super crisp view of the APO refractor wins, hand down.




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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/23/05

Loc: Virginia
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Cliff C]
      #5932155 - 06/20/13 10:09 PM

Thanks for your advice Cliff - the portability of the 130GT vs. the 140 is an important consideration.

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t.r.
Post Laureate
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Doug D.]
      #5932591 - 06/21/13 07:45 AM

Mike, prices for the GT are all over the map due to whether they are a new untouched arrival or used. There are more of these than any other AP model as well I believe. I have seen them go for list price and as high as $8400 on a bidding war. I woud say the average price is $7500 and I would say it is worth it. One sold overnight recently for $6995. One Amarter is trying to sell an AP140 for $9000 asking price, but it hasn't sold. I offered $8500 for it the day he listed...he declined. I wouldn't go higher for it. AP155's were going for around $9000 just a year or two ago, now they seem to go near $11 to 12000 with accessories!?!? I'd simply buy a new TEC160FL at that price.

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Cliff C
member


Reged: 02/11/09

Loc: Long Island, NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Doug D.]
      #5932677 - 06/21/13 09:05 AM

Any time Doug.

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5932944 - 06/21/13 12:48 PM

Tucson is dark, dry, and airflow challenged. So, dew is a distant memory at this point. If I move back east, I'm going to have to recover a whole lot of dew coping skills.

However, the air here moves a lot. So, for example, all of the dry washes ("Wash" is the local term for desert dry rivers which only flow when it rains. Arroyo or Wadi are the equivalent elsewhere) are active with colder air running along them from higher elevations at night. there isn't really a flat spot anywhere in Tucson since there are always gradients in the valley floor.

Getting to better air out here seems to be a question of going up. A friend of mine at work did the site surveys for the Large Binocular Telescope, and the site survey which resulted in them going with Mt. Graham in the Pinaleño mountains was done on Heliograph Peak, just a little ways down the range. It is at over 10,000 ft, and he reported sub-arcsecond seeing thanks to the steep prominence of the mountain range, which is over 7000 ft. above the surrounding countryside. However, I'd have to get permission to go there, and that's far from a sure thing.

-Rich

Quote:

I though you had great seeing down in Tucson? Would getting high up out of the valley improve your seeing for your larger aperture scope? I know observing from a lower, and heated valley with high mountains around kill seeing until way after midnight. I had that bad experience living in Medford, OR ten years ago with 5-7,000 ft. mountain peaks all around. The +100 degree days during summer would kill seeing until the valley cooled down after midnight. I had to observe at 3am before sunrise to get great seeing.






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t.r.
Post Laureate
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5933013 - 06/21/13 01:37 PM

I don't know if going up works either. I was stationed at Ft. Huachuca Az. near Sierra Vista at 5000 to 7000ft. I observed from Jan to Jun with a very good C8 and the poor seeing shocked me for planetary viewing. The wind always blooooooooooooows.

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peleuba
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/01/04

Loc: Southern PA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Peter Natscher]
      #5933224 - 06/21/13 03:50 PM

Quote:

The seller of the TEC 160FL told me he sold it primarily because it was a hassle to set up (too heavy and not as portable), not that it gave no better view than his 130EDF-GT.





Peter,

Correct - make no mistake the views in my 160 are spectatcular and are noticeably improved over the 130. But its not as dramatic as one would think.

The direct quote from our private email conversation is below.

"...yes exactly. I prefer the 130 over the 160. Views are definitely better in the 160 but there is considerable hassle factor in setting it up compared to the 130."

In any event, I have a sale pending on the 160. Its a great telescope that tested out on the bench quite well.


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Mike Holland
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/22/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5933333 - 06/21/13 04:56 PM

Thanks, t.r.! I suspect that timing has a lot to do with the fluctuations. If one lists the scope on the day when someone with cash is really wishing for that scope there will be one price; if one lists right after several have just sold there might be another!

Mike


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mike Holland]
      #5933918 - 06/21/13 11:28 PM

Part of it is who is buying. Roland is making real progress through some of his lists. If he catches up, then it should be like the mount prices. Of course, the convention wisdom is he won't catch up...ever.

-Rich


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t.r.
Post Laureate
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Doug D.]
      #5934231 - 06/22/13 08:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Lastly, I will say this to all owners and potential owners of the AP Gran Turismo telescope...do all you can to get it and keep it. It truly is the "Holy Grail" of apo refractors for a lot of reasons! Those who choose to flip it or sell it have no idea what they really have in their hands...Thee perfect refractor.




I've wondered about this especially now that I am close on the notifcation list for a GT. If there is another run, I expect to be notified. But I have an AP140EDF - a bit of a rare beast (60 scopes total I think I read on the Yahoo AP group) or perhaps the oddball depending on your perspective (a 140mm oil spaced optic in a 160 OTA - all the weight but less filling!).

Discussions like the one in this thread make me think I should just be content with the 140 - maybe hits an even "better" if heavier sweet spot given the seeing conditions in my neck of the woods. And I should just stop dreaming about a 160-180 class triplet.




Doug, you have a tough choice there if you only want to own one and really there is no need for both. I got my 130 just after a friend got an AP140. We have compared the views numerous times. Yes, 10mm difference can be see, mainly in showing just a tad, barely detectable, color saturation with no additional details rendered. For a few years now, I have gone back and forth on upgrading to the 140, but it is indeed a beast for a 140! The 130 provides a very, very similar view in a much more compact package that...WILL GET USED MORE. At least, for me. The Gran Turismo can really be used grab and go with planning, the 140 cannot because of mount requirements. The ideal would be the Gran Turismo on a Nova mount. At a weight of 47#, this is very close to the 45# Genesis and Super Polaris combo that I could carry out the door in one trip years ago...which I aspire to do again. But that Nova is a pricey bugger, the DSV-3 is what I have my current sights set on! At any rate, BUY the 130GT when your name comes up and figure out which one to keep later!!! My advice is always to buy when offered an AP (I passed on one of the first AP160EDF's when my name came up and have regretted it ever since), then figure out how to mount and afford it later! The logistics will works themselves out.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #5934485 - 06/22/13 11:49 AM

T.R., the wind is a serious problem. Supposedly if you can get to a steep enough prominence, the wind is deflected straight up and leaves good seeing in a low velocity bubble.

I remember going on top of engineer pass (12,800 ft) in the San Juan mountains in Colorado with my dad many years ago with a little Celestron Cometcatcher 5.5" Schmidt Newtonian, and being amazed at the clear images of Saturn.

-Rich

Quote:

I don't know if going up works either. I was stationed at Ft. Huachuca Az. near Sierra Vista at 5000 to 7000ft. I observed from Jan to Jun with a very good C8 and the poor seeing shocked me for planetary viewing. The wind always blooooooooooooows.




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jouster
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 11/27/05

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5939412 - 06/25/13 09:58 AM

Interesting debate. It was just this sort of comparison that made me choose a small apo for my NE skies and SLaP observing. This review helped:

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=939


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: jouster]
      #5940384 - 06/25/13 07:54 PM

The refractors can do a lot. Of course, at the price, they ought to, eh?

-Rich


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Zoomit
sage


Reged: 12/04/06

Loc: Tehachapi, CA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #6189274 - 11/11/13 07:28 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

The Serial Number(?) hand written on the box my 130 came in is:

13063-410....I'm assuming this means 130mm f/6.3 OTA #410

First light this evening, skies are looking really nice Will take some pics after all is setup.

Tim

Quote:

I figure that Roland has been making a run of ~120 of them each year for the past 6 years (minus one year it seems he skipped while making the 175's) so that is why I went with 600+.







Wow, only in the 400's! I certainly thought it would be more by now. Thank you for the information.




Rich--This one's for you. Looks like they wanted to give me a 160 but changed their mind.


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PeterR280
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Reged: 05/27/13

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Zoomit]
      #6189728 - 11/11/13 11:16 PM

I got 469 two weeks ago.

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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Zoomit]
      #6189785 - 11/11/13 11:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The Serial Number(?) hand written on the box my 130 came in is:

13063-410....I'm assuming this means 130mm f/6.3 OTA #410

First light this evening, skies are looking really nice Will take some pics after all is setup.

Tim

Quote:

I figure that Roland has been making a run of ~120 of them each year for the past 6 years (minus one year it seems he skipped while making the 175's) so that is why I went with 600+.







Wow, only in the 400's! I certainly thought it would be more by now. Thank you for the information.




Rich--This one's for you. Looks like they wanted to give me a 160 but changed their mind.




Dang, that kind of mistake I certainly would NOT complain about! Congrats on the very nice 130. I don't have a GT and wanted one back when I was traveling extensively via air, but I do have an original EDF. It is part of what I refer to as my AP Royal Flush (92,105,130,155,180), none of which are going anywhere but out under the skies, and works superbly. I still get tempted by the AP130 f8.35 scope when it pops up for sale from time to time though, even though I shouldn't. I just can't help myself when it comes to fine optics.


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6189789 - 11/12/13 12:01 AM

Quote:

I got 469 two weeks ago.




Woo-hoo! So we are definitely on run #5 of these excellent refractors for sure!


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bb4
super member


Reged: 04/16/07

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #6394357 - 02/24/14 02:38 PM

Hi All -
I thought I would share my AP130 EDFGT notification list experience. I put my name in the AP 130 EDFGT list thru AP in 2010. Maybe my name will pop up in 2020. Who knows.

However, I purchased a Mach1 GTO thru Company seven several years ago, and only had to wait about a year to receive my mount (as was the case with people on the AP Mach1gto waiting list). Last year in February, I put my name down on the AP130EDFGT list thru company seven, and was informed over the weekend that they have a brand new scope waiting for me provided I still have interest.

I was shocked to say the least. One reason why I received some preference was (I think) due to my previous purchase and maybe my more proximate location to their showroom. Regardless, I thought that those waiting for one of these scope might be interested in hearing my experience as there might be faster ways of getting AP scopes. And company seven has always been a pleasure to do business with. Just FYI, and no, I have no association with Company 7 whatsoever, except as a satisfied customer.

Edited by bb4 (02/24/14 02:41 PM)


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BCNGreyCat
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #6394368 - 02/24/14 02:45 PM

Congratulations!!!

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t.r.
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #6394371 - 02/24/14 02:47 PM

I'd be satisfied too!!! Company 7 has pulled off some miracles for deliveries of AP scopes. Enjoy it and appreciate it, many who have signed up way before you can't.

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bb4
super member


Reged: 04/16/07

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: BCNGreyCat]
      #6394389 - 02/24/14 02:54 PM

Thanks much. Also, AP just announced another production run of these scopes and they will start shipping them come spring. Everyone should watch their inboxes just in case.

Edited by bb4 (02/24/14 05:41 PM)


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Zoomit
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #6394398 - 02/24/14 02:57 PM

Quote:

Thanks much. Also, AP just announced another production run of these scopes and they will start shipping them come spring. Everyone should watch there inboxes just in case.




Where did they announce this? I don't see anything on their website.


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LLEEGE
True Blue
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Zoomit]
      #6394408 - 02/24/14 03:02 PM

It's on the notifications page.

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Sgt
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Reged: 12/17/05

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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #6396070 - 02/25/14 12:11 PM

I'll be watching my inbox in hope, but as I got on the list in July 2007 I've probably got a few more years to wait...

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madcity
member


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Loc: WI, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Sgt]
      #6396866 - 02/25/14 06:57 PM

May 2007 -- guess I'm your 'canary in the coal mine'?

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Markab
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Reged: 12/15/12

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Sgt]
      #6396890 - 02/25/14 07:08 PM

I'm not impressed with Company 7.

I spoke with their main guy who handles ordering for AP (can't recall his name)...and he was very arrogant and snotty. In no uncertain terms, said that if I hadn't ordered from them before or didn't live in the northeast that I need not waste his (or my) time getting on his AP list.

Needless to say, my $ goes elsewhere.


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ichdien
member


Reged: 11/27/08

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Markab]
      #6396973 - 02/25/14 07:49 PM

Too bad. Like almost everyone I know who's done business with Company Seven over the years, I've enjoyed Marty's expert advice and friendly customer service. When I ordered a Traveler there in 1995, I'd never done business with Marty before and there were no questions about where I lived. Of course, I *was* a little ticked off that it took a whole six months before the telescope was ready! ;-)

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Sgt
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: madcity]
      #6397003 - 02/25/14 08:04 PM

Quote:

May 2007 -- guess I'm your 'canary in the coal mine'?




Indeed! Each time this thread reanimates I'll have to remember to watch for a post by you


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PeterR280
Pooh-Bah
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Sgt]
      #6397060 - 02/25/14 08:33 PM

I signed up in February 2004. I was notified last summer.

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Paul G
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Markab]
      #6397075 - 02/25/14 08:37 PM

I've been dealing with Company 7 for a couple of decades and have always been very impressed with their expertise and their customer service, both before and after the sale. I wouldn't go anywhere else. Want a polychromatic Strehl on your new C7 scope? They can do it. They reserve their cherry used stuff for previous customers, something I appreciate. But they aren't for everyone, as they are very blunt in describing what they sell, warts and all, and have no problem sending someone to another shop if they feel the customer would be better served elsewhere. They've talked me out of more purchases than I've made there, and in hindsight their advice was spot on each time. The only time I ignored their advice I lived to regret it.

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madcity
member


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Loc: WI, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Sgt]
      #6397254 - 02/25/14 10:05 PM

Based on PeterR280, maybe 2016???

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gillmj24
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: madcity]
      #6397732 - 02/26/14 07:12 AM

I'm not old enough to be a longtime previous customer so I'm out of luck. They mostly do optic work for the government so he doesn't care if he loses business from mere amateurs. I did buy a book from the friendlier guy who just passed in the last couple years but I don't think that's enough to get me on his AP list.

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t.r.
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Markab]
      #6397765 - 02/26/14 07:57 AM

Quote:

I'm not impressed with Company 7.

I spoke with their main guy who handles ordering for AP (can't recall his name)...and he was very arrogant and snotty. In no uncertain terms, said that if I hadn't ordered from them before or didn't live in the northeast that I need not waste his (or my) time getting on his AP list.

Needless to say, my $ goes elsewhere.




Not my experience at all, nor have I heard this from anyone else. Marty will offer professional advice regardless of a sale and will talk until the customer is satisfied.


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ichdien
member


Reged: 11/27/08

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: gillmj24]
      #6397880 - 02/26/14 09:07 AM

Quote:

I'm not old enough to be a longtime previous customer so I'm out of luck. They mostly do optic work for the government so he doesn't care if he loses business from mere amateurs. I did buy a book from the friendlier guy who just passed in the last couple years but I don't think that's enough to get me on his AP list.




Fine--don't get on their list, but to generalize, based on your admittedly limited experience, that Marty somehow disdains "mere amateurs" is inappropriate. And inaccurate: in addition to running C-7, Marty is himself a mere amateur. Maybe he's a self-hating mere amateur? By the way the "guy" who recently passed away was Bruce, like Marty an extremely helpful and knowledgeable person.


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gillmj24
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: ichdien]
      #6398330 - 02/26/14 01:13 PM

Bruce yes. Thanks. The name slipped my mind this morning.

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Adam S
scholastic sledgehammer
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: gillmj24]
      #6399424 - 02/27/14 12:32 AM

I put my name on C7s and APs list at the same time. About nine years later I get an offer from AP which I accept. About two weeks later my wife gets a call at work 'looking for Adam?'. When she tells them she's married to an Adam she hears chuckling in the background. Marty Cohen had tracked me down... New email, new phone number, new address and C7/Marty Cohen found me and offered me a 130 EDFGT. I called him and told him that I'd accepted an offer from AP and thanked him for his efforts, I forgot to ask how he found me. Regardless, I cannot say enough about Marty Cohen and his staff, I've purchased nothing from them and they took the time to find me nine years after putting my name on a list.

I've just come in after documenting and sketching five more Messier objects for a Messier certificate. The 130 EDFGT is an awesome piece of equipment. Visual, photographic use- it does it all. When your name comes up go for it without regret.


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LLEEGE
True Blue
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Adam S]
      #6399704 - 02/27/14 08:04 AM

I'm hoping to make this run. Signed up in 2005. If not, I'm sure I'll hit next years run.

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #6399738 - 02/27/14 08:46 AM

Good luck on making this run. You'll really like it- just make sure you're imagining mounting a C11 so you'll have a mount on ready standby.

-Rich


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t.r.
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Loc: Upstate NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #6399745 - 02/27/14 08:49 AM

And then, finally you can hand me down your AP140, right?!?!

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LLEEGE
True Blue
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Reged: 03/03/05

Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: t.r.]
      #6401733 - 02/28/14 11:30 AM

Quote:

And then, finally you can hand me down your AP140, right?!?!




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LLEEGE
True Blue
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Reged: 03/03/05

Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #6401739 - 02/28/14 11:34 AM

December 29,2005

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Rinaldo
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/28/04

Loc: Lawng-eye-lind - New York, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #6402397 - 02/28/14 06:00 PM

LLEEGE, I had signed up in 2005. I got the Notification for the current run. You should be on the next run the latest!

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Rinaldo
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/28/04

Loc: Lawng-eye-lind - New York, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Rinaldo]
      #6402616 - 02/28/14 08:44 PM

A lot of people on this thread are going to be experiencing this!

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SteveG
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Rinaldo]
      #6404811 - 03/01/14 11:08 PM

Nice slide show. I was on the edge of my seat....

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Jack Frost
Gobbler's Knob


Reged: 06/23/04

Loc: UK
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: SteveG]
      #6406106 - 03/02/14 05:27 PM

Oh no! I placed my name on this list years ago too (2004 or 2005 - I can't remember) but moved house and changed email address, and forgot to update my Astro Physics notification details. Knowing my luck my time will have been and gone, and I'll have been kicked off the list for not replying.

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mgwhittle
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Jack Frost]
      #6406309 - 03/02/14 06:47 PM

Quote:

Oh no! I placed my name on this list years ago too (2004 or 2005 - I can't remember) but moved house and changed email address, and forgot to update my Astro Physics notification details. Knowing my luck my time will have been and gone, and I'll have been kicked off the list for not replying.




Exactly how I missed my notification in 2009. Got on the list in 1999. Moved four time and the last time forgot to update with AP. When I realized it I called and had been sent a letter to my last address about a year prior. The kicker was I sold my house to some acquaintances who just threw out the letter when they got it. They said they thought it was junk mail.


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madcity
member


Reged: 04/22/04

Loc: WI, USA
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Jack Frost]
      #6406680 - 03/02/14 10:31 PM

Quote:

Oh no! I placed my name on this list years ago too (2004 or 2005 - I can't remember) but moved house and changed email address, and forgot to update my Astro Physics notification details. Knowing my luck my time will have been and gone, and I'll have been kicked off the list for not replying.




Call A-P IMMEDIATELY (or email) and check your status. If your name hasn't come up, they'll accept your email and you won't lose your place. If your name has been skipped ... my condolences.


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Jack Frost
Gobbler's Knob


Reged: 06/23/04

Loc: UK
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: madcity]
      #6407768 - 03/03/14 03:48 PM

Well I emailed Astro-Physics and... it turns out that my name is on the current list and they've been trying to contact me! What were the chances of that? I had until March 10th to reply, before it would be offered to someone else.

Now, I hope people don't mind me asking this here, but seeing as how I live in the UK I was wondering if anyone from the UK has ordered one previously, and knows what sort of import tax will get whacked on the thing when it arrives on these shores?


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M13 Observer
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/09/06

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Jack Frost]
      #6407900 - 03/03/14 05:04 PM

Quote:

Well I emailed Astro-Physics and... it turns out that my name is on the current list and they've been trying to contact me! What were the chances of that? I had until March 10th to reply, before it would be offered to someone else.

Now, I hope people don't mind me asking this here, but seeing as how I live in the UK I was wondering if anyone from the UK has ordered one previously, and knows what sort of import tax will get whacked on the thing when it arrives on these shores?




I would expect that it would be whatever the VAT is - probably 20%.


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WesC
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #6407977 - 03/03/14 05:46 PM

Ouch!

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Rinaldo
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/28/04

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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Jack Frost]
      #6408502 - 03/03/14 10:49 PM

Quote:

Well I emailed Astro-Physics and... it turns out that my name is on the current list and they've been trying to contact me! What were the chances of that? I had until March 10th to reply, before it would be offered to someone else...




Nice!


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Jack Frost
Gobbler's Knob


Reged: 06/23/04

Loc: UK
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: WesC]
      #6409839 - 03/04/14 04:48 PM

Quote:

Ouch!




I know! Unfortunately everything in the UK is expensive.

Even with the price increase I'm still tempted to buy the scope. I sold my previous scope (a TMB 175) four years ago, just before beginning my PhD. It just so happens that I'm now in the process of completing my PhD, so it will be a nice treat and a reminder of all the hard work I put in!


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Paul G
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Jack Frost]
      #6409880 - 03/04/14 05:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ouch!




I know! Unfortunately everything in the UK is expensive.

Even with the price increase I'm still tempted to buy the scope. I sold my previous scope (a TMB 175) four years ago, just before beginning my PhD. It just so happens that I'm now in the process of completing my PhD, so it will be a nice treat and a reminder of all the hard work I put in!




It's a great scope, you wouldn't be disappointed.


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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Paul G]
      #6409939 - 03/04/14 05:39 PM

Good luck on the PhD Jack. What is your field of study?

The AP130GT will be a nice treat. I like my AP130GT that I bought last year after 9 years of wait but I don't use it that much because of my other scopes and I don't want to mess it up.


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Jack Frost
Gobbler's Knob


Reged: 06/23/04

Loc: UK
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6409987 - 03/04/14 06:03 PM

Quote:

Good luck on the PhD Jack. What is your field of study?

The AP130GT will be a nice treat. I like my AP130GT that I bought last year after 9 years of wait but I don't use it that much because of my other scopes and I don't want to mess it up.




Thanks! I've been studying the water cycle of Mars using computer models and data from orbiting satellites. I'm starting a post-doctoral position in April looking for evidence of liquid water flowing on the martian surface in the past and the present. It's hard work at times, but still lots of fun!

I think I'll probably get the scope. I just want to double check there's no hidden import costs lurking anywhere!


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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Jack Frost]
      #6430376 - 03/26/14 02:10 PM

Time to check back in and update the thread, progress continues on the 130GT notification list - just got the e-mail from Daleen inviting me to place a deposit for a scope from this run (as predicted). Timing isn't the best at the moment, unfortunately, so I've got some thinking to do…. If I didn't have a 140EDF it would be a no brainer, even though I realize these two scopes are otherwise, rather different beasts for many reasons.

BTW, as mentioned earlier, placed my name on the list Valentine's day 2006. I guess Cupid's arrow covers scope lust as well….?

Edited by Doug D. (03/26/14 02:17 PM)


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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Doug D.]
      #6430387 - 03/26/14 02:16 PM

Doug

You got notification a month after putting your name on the list?


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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6430389 - 03/26/14 02:17 PM

oops, good point - I wish for my many buddies out there that things were progressing that quickly but alas! The correct year was 2006, I shall edit. A wait time of 8 years, 1 month and 12 days, if you're counting such things.

My bad


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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Doug D.]
      #6430479 - 03/26/14 03:05 PM

The views through the AP130GT are wonderful. It has given me the cleanest and most detiled view of Mars. Although dimmer, the image was much sharper than my trusty C8.

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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6430497 - 03/26/14 03:13 PM

Good to know Peter - one possibility is that I pull the trigger on the 130GT, compare with the 140EDF over a few months and then decide which to keep or whether I can justify both. My hope was to build a serious imaging rig (including observatory) around the 140 but haven't gotten that off the ground - and won't be able to for the foreseeable future. The 130GT strikes me as that much more versatile for visual and imaging away from home. Then again, 10mm of aperture is 10mm….(plus a little more reach with the 140 for planetary). I'll have to see if my eyes are still good enough to discern a difference on most nights of seeing from my backyard.



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Sgt
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 12/17/05

Loc: Under the southern horn of the...
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Doug D.]
      #6430758 - 03/26/14 05:19 PM

So we're up to 2006... that's good to know :-)

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fishhuntmike
member


Reged: 03/09/14

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Sgt]
      #6431110 - 03/26/14 08:17 PM

I just got notified that mine was shipped ups today! It will be 9 years and 2 months wait when I get it.

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fishhuntmike
member


Reged: 03/09/14

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: fishhuntmike]
      #6431114 - 03/26/14 08:19 PM

Interesting. My posts went back to 1 and my avatar is gone.

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zawijava
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 10/06/07

Loc: Wells, Maine 04090
Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: fishhuntmike]
      #6431441 - 03/26/14 11:34 PM

Each time you receive a new A-P Refractor you start from scratch....you shouldn't have said anything

Quote:

Interesting. My posts went back to 1 and my avatar is gone.




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fishhuntmike
member


Reged: 03/09/14

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: zawijava]
      #6431929 - 03/27/14 09:11 AM

Oh well. I can handle that I suppose.

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Danny206
member


Reged: 03/09/14

Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: fishhuntmike]
      #6436296 - 03/29/14 03:22 PM

AP has been working on the 130s for years now. does anyone know if they have given up on the 4 and 6 inch apos ?

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Markab
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Danny206]
      #6436368 - 03/29/14 03:55 PM

What I had heard is that Roland will not be making any additional 4" scopes. Something to the effect that he felt the market was well-supplied, as least that was apparently his opinion when the Traveler was discontinued circa 2003.

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M13 Observer
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Danny206]
      #6437159 - 03/30/14 01:09 AM

Quote:

AP has been working on the 130s for years now. does anyone know if they have given up on the 4 and 6 inch apos ?




4" AP scopes are done, forever according to Roland. Too much effort and time, not enough profit. The Traveler has even been removed from the notification list.
Roland has also said that he would like to make more AP160EDF but cannot get blanks of high enough quality in that size without paying exorbitant prices. Even then there are absolutely no guarantees the glass supplied will meet his stringent requirements. Bottom line - no 160's either for the foreseeable future - but you never know if some glass eventually gets produced. Unfortunately, even if some glass does eventually get produced, the lineup for the 160 goes back a very long way.


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rainycityastro
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #6438770 - 03/31/14 01:42 AM

Quote:


Roland has also said that he would like to make more AP160EDF but cannot get blanks of high enough quality in that size without paying exorbitant prices. Even then there are absolutely no guarantees the glass supplied will meet his stringent requirements. Bottom line - no 160's either for the foreseeable future - but you never know if some glass eventually gets produced. Unfortunately, even if some glass does eventually get produced, the lineup for the 160 goes back a very long way.




Doesn't the AP160 use easily available glasses such as BK7 and S-FPL53? Perhaps Roland isn't too happy paying large sums for the FPL53 element.

In the meantime, there are TEC and LZOS/APM making some nice scopes.


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gillmj24
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: rainycityastro]
      #6438792 - 03/31/14 02:01 AM

It's an air spaced scope (the 160), so 6 air-glass surfaces to polish perfectly. The GT is oil spaced, right?

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rainycityastro
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: gillmj24]
      #6438796 - 03/31/14 02:05 AM

Quote:

It's an air spaced scope (the 160), so 6 air-glass surfaces to polish perfectly. The GT is oil spaced, right?




Yes, that is right. My understanding is that air spacing gives Roland some flexibility with the glass used.

Further he could do all spherical surfaces rather than the oil spaced where one surface would ideally need to be aspherized to keep spherochromatism under control.


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gillmj24
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: rainycityastro]
      #6438957 - 03/31/14 07:57 AM

But he still polishes oil spaced scopes to a high level, not to worry!

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coz
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: gillmj24]
      #6439121 - 03/31/14 09:56 AM

The AP160 and AP175 are the same designs. I believe I read that it takes almost 5x as long for Roland to make one of them compared to a AP130 fyi.

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Mike Clemens
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: coz]
      #6439488 - 03/31/14 01:33 PM

Roland told me the airspaced AP175 color correction is better than the older 155/7 or the new 130. I forgot to ask about the 160, I bet they are the same, or the 160 has the edge with smaller aperture.

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rainycityastro
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #6439668 - 03/31/14 03:27 PM

Yes, all things being equal, air spaced is going to provide better color correction than oiled.

Of course, the gold standard for color correction is the Tak TOA which uses 2(?) FPL-53 elements in a wide air spaced design. But I wonder how well it holds collimation compared to relatively simpler AP and TEC cells.


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madcity
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: gillmj24]
      #6439690 - 03/31/14 03:37 PM

Quote:

It's an air spaced scope (the 160), so 6 air-glass surfaces to polish perfectly. The GT is oil spaced, right?




Curiosity: What oil does Roland uses?


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junomike
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: rainycityastro]
      #6439739 - 03/31/14 04:05 PM

Quote:

Of course, the gold standard for color correction is the Tak TOA which uses 2(?) FPL-53 elements in a wide air spaced design. But I wonder how well it holds collimation compared to relatively simpler AP and TEC cells.




This is a common misconception. The TOA uses ONE FPL-53 sandwiched between TWO crown and flint Elements.

See under Description

While the TOA is highly regarded for It's color corrections, Takahashi could never competitively sell It If It needed two FPL-53.

Mike


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rainycityastro
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: junomike]
      #6439793 - 03/31/14 04:41 PM

Quote:


This is a common misconception. The TOA uses ONE FPL-53 sandwiched between TWO crown and flint Elements.
Mike




Mike, this misconception appears to be a misconception
Are you saying that this triplet is actually a 4 element scope? Please read message 59479 in the uncensoredtakgroup on Yahoo for Art's post on this.

Regards,
--Ram


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rainycityastro
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: rainycityastro]
      #6439800 - 03/31/14 04:45 PM

Opt has an incorrect description. Not the first time though.

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junomike
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: rainycityastro]
      #6440005 - 03/31/14 07:17 PM

Quote:

Opt has an incorrect description. Not the first time though.




I couldn't access that post as I'm not a Yahoo member.
I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised If one company could offer TWO FPl-53 lenses for a similar price as others only offering one.

Also, Astronomics has the same description as OPT.

Mike

Edited by junomike (03/31/14 07:19 PM)


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Tamiji Homma
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: junomike]
      #6440033 - 03/31/14 07:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Opt has an incorrect description. Not the first time though.




I couldn't access that post as I'm not a Yahoo member.
I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised If one company could offer TWO FPl-53 lenses for a similar price as others only offering one.

Also, Astronomics has the same description as OPT.

Mike




Hi Mike,

We've been there before Link

It does not explicitly say what those two ED elements are, though.

Tammy


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Paul G
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: junomike]
      #6440039 - 03/31/14 07:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Opt has an incorrect description. Not the first time though.




I couldn't access that post as I'm not a Yahoo member.
I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised If one company could offer TWO FPl-53 lenses for a similar price as others only offering one.

Also, Astronomics has the same description as OPT.

Mike




It appears all of the dealers, including Astronomics, use the same description of the scopes, verbatim, and they all say the ED element is the center element. However, in his post on the uncensoredtak group Art was clear when he called it a "double ED element" scope when comparing it to a "single ED element" TEC refractor.

On Astromart Art said, "The TOA-150 does indeed have two ED elements, front and rear."

Amart post

Edited by Paul G (03/31/14 07:44 PM)


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junomike
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Paul G]
      #6440057 - 03/31/14 07:50 PM

Ok, Thanks guys. Still not as "cut and dry" as I'd like.

Takahashi-Europe report It as a Triplet which two consist of ED glass.

If It is FPL-53, that's Impressive.

Mike




Hmmm.


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bobhen
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Paul G]
      #6440061 - 03/31/14 07:53 PM

Here is a quote from Takahashi Europe.

"The objective of TOA-150 (D=150mm, F=1100mm, F/D 7,3) is an air-spaced triplet of which two of the lenses consist of ED glass with very weak chromatic dispersion."

Bob


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Rich V.
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bobhen]
      #6440350 - 03/31/14 08:43 PM

Sorry to still be off topic, but on the Astronomics site it says:

Quote:

The Takahashi ortho-apochromatic refractors use a newly developed lens design that uses three air-spaced lenses in three groups. A low dispersion crown glass element is positioned between two FPL-53 ED (Extra-low Dispersion) glass elements to produce images of very high quality .




On Telescope-Optics.net, Vladimir shows the TOA as using FPL-53/BSL-7/FPL-53 in a double ED triplet. It's shown as example #20 on the linked chart.

Rich


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BillP
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Rich V.]
      #6441999 - 04/01/14 05:08 PM

The Takahashi Japan site says (Google translated):

In the design consists of (ECO glass all) objective lens of three configuration that includes special low dispersion glass sandwiched between two (ED glass ) ... Visible light region as well , because it covers up the infrared region from the near- ultraviolet region , wavelength region in which you aberration correction is an optical system which you can fully satisfy a digital single-lens reflex camera and a cooled CCD camera as well as silver halide photography . In addition, in combination with the flattener , flat field in the entire field of view is also realized , we achieved zero aberration of the entire visible light region , in the entire field of view .


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fishhuntmike
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: BillP]
      #6442466 - 04/01/14 09:47 PM

Today, April 1st was no joke for me!

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fishhuntmike
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: fishhuntmike]
      #6442471 - 04/01/14 09:48 PM Attachment (75 downloads)

oops

the picture was missing


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Mike Clemens
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: fishhuntmike]
      #6442667 - 04/01/14 11:36 PM

Super Nice - Congrats

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MDB
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #6442673 - 04/01/14 11:41 PM


Beautiful, congratulations!

Mike


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Paul G
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: fishhuntmike]
      #6442943 - 04/02/14 05:51 AM

Congrats!

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bb4
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Paul G]
      #6443045 - 04/02/14 08:05 AM

I wonder if anyone has asked Roland to sign the dew shield of their scope. I suppose this could reduce resale value but from a collectors standpoint, I would think there is value in this. What do people think?

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LLEEGE
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #6443068 - 04/02/14 08:28 AM

I think it has been asked for in the past and he declined to sign. You'll have to get one of his early scopes with his name written on the objective edge if you want an autograph from Roland.

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LLEEGE
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: fishhuntmike]
      #6443069 - 04/02/14 08:29 AM

Quote:

Today, April 1st was no joke for me!


Congrats!

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Mike Clemens
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #6443679 - 04/02/14 02:38 PM

Yep hold the signature from any of my scopes. Roland already "signed" the objective when he hand figured it at the end. The scopes always look disfigured to me with signatures.

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BillP
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bb4]
      #6443856 - 04/02/14 04:38 PM

Quote:

I wonder if anyone has asked Roland to sign the dew shield of their scope. I suppose this could reduce resale value but from a collectors standpoint, I would think there is value in this. What do people think?




I think it detracts from the scope. I think a better idea is to have them sign the inside of the front cap. Much more tasteful that way to have the signature on an interior surface someplace.


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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: BillP]
      #6443923 - 04/02/14 05:14 PM

Roland does hand figure te lens as was mentioned before. i did like Al Nagler's signature on the instruction book for my TV102.

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Danny206
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6452583 - 04/07/14 11:43 AM

are AP And TEC the only refractor companies that hand figure their refractors ? I thought Tak did the same for the final figuring ?

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Paul G
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Danny206]
      #6452623 - 04/07/14 12:04 PM

Quote:

are AP And TEC the only refractor companies that hand figure their refractors ? I thought Tak did the same for the final figuring ?




No, Tak outsources their refractor objectives from Canon Optron. I believe they do their own mirrors.


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Danny206
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Paul G]
      #6453317 - 04/07/14 05:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

are AP And TEC the only refractor companies that hand figure their refractors ? I thought Tak did the same for the final figuring ?




No, Tak outsources their refractor objectives from Canon Optron. I believe they do their own mirrors.




Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. Perhaps I misunderstood, but some years ago a Tak representative told me that there was "final figuring" that they did with their optics ( I assumed that meant after getting them back from optron.) Perhaps he was referring to the mirrors.

I had also asked what the minimum wavefront error Tak aims for in their refractors but didn't get an answer iirc.


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Patrik Iver
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Danny206]
      #6454777 - 04/08/14 01:51 PM

Quote:

are AP And TEC the only refractor companies that hand figure their refractors ? I thought Tak did the same for the final figuring ?




CFF (GPU) does.

And I would not be surprised if LZOS does and LOMO did (but I have no firm knowledge about that). I guess someone might argue that LZOS and LOMO should not be considered "refractor companies" as they (to the best of my knowledge) do/did not make complete refractors, "only" optics.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone here will gladly correct me...


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MrJim
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Patrik Iver]
      #6457260 - 04/09/14 08:25 PM

Beautiful scope fishhuntmike! I got the call a few weeks ago, have sent my 50% payment and have been told to expect delivery in late May. Not an easy wait!

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fishhuntmike
member


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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: MrJim]
      #6457331 - 04/09/14 08:56 PM

Congratulations Jim! Well worth the wait. I was surprised how small it is and how easy it it to carry/move. Pretty light too, compared to my 5" TOA. Super easy setup on my DM4, which I bought for a grab-go setup. Very smooth and easy to use. It's a little giggly with the 6mm Delos (2 sec damp time, 3 sec with extension) but easy to keep things in the field of view and not a big deal changing eyepieces. I got it for wide field viewing in dark locations mainly and I can still use my G11 for high power work. Love the contrast. Only had it out once so far with some thin cloud cover. Too busy with 15 hr work days right now.

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PeterR280
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: fishhuntmike]
      #6460723 - 04/11/14 05:03 PM

Does anyone know the typical Stehl ratio for the AP130GT telescopes? Does Roland have any minimum standards?

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bobhen
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6460806 - 04/11/14 06:12 PM

Quote:

Does anyone know the typical Stehl ratio for the AP130GT telescopes? Does Roland have any minimum standards?




From the AP website...

"Lenses are finished one at a time until they meet or exceed our quality standards. A lens is finished when it displays a wavefront accuracy of l/50 RMS (Strehl Ratio of 98.4%). This is well within the diffraction limit, and a lens with this smooth of a wavefront will be a superb planetary objective."

Bob


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MrJim
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: bobhen]
      #6467700 - 04/15/14 01:14 PM

Mine is due to arrive "late May". I am deep into the astro gear time warp!

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Seanem44
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: MrJim]
      #6467976 - 04/15/14 03:44 PM

I told my wife that I put my name on the list several months ago. Then I told her the price and she about freaked out. Then I told her I have a good decade to save up and it will be a nice present for my 43rd birthday.

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MrJim
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6468047 - 04/15/14 04:32 PM

Well Sean, I suggest you pick up the pace of your saving! ;-)

I got on the 130 EDFGT wait list on January 16, 2006 and received my notification from Astro-Physics on March 10, 2014. That's a mere 8 years and 2 months! I was told to expect delivery in late May. Time is now standing still.


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Bill Barlow
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: MrJim]
      #6468094 - 04/15/14 04:56 PM

When getting on the wait list, do you lock in todays price and don't have to pay what the scope might cost eight years from now? I don't think I would want to pay a large increase eight years from now.

Bill


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MrJim
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Bill Barlow]
      #6468116 - 04/15/14 05:11 PM

No such luck Bill. You get the email and letter and you have a month to decide if you want to buy one. There is no way that AP could know their costs 8 years in advance in all fairness. No business will guarantee a price that far out. I was thrilled to say "Yes!"

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Jared
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Re: AP 130EDF Gran tourismo Notifications have begun! new [Re: Bill Barlow]
      #6468307 - 04/15/14 06:48 PM

No, you aren't locking in a price. However, unlike with many wait lists, there is no deposit required so you aren't really taking a risk by adding your name to the list. When you are finally notified, you just decide whether the then current price is worth it to you. If it is, cool. Go ahead and pay. If not, they just offer your spot to someone else. No harm, no foul.

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