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Equipment Discussions >> Refractors

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: M13 Observer]
      #6071766 - 09/09/13 05:36 PM

And not all field flattening is necessary. I got one of the inexpensive Astro-Tech 2" flatteners and it seems to work quite well for APS-C- I hope to get some good comparison pix together with it.

-Rich


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TG
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/02/06

Loc: Latitude 47
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6071777 - 09/09/13 05:45 PM

Quote:

I believe I read somewhere that A-P uses machines to grind and polish their lenses and then Roland hand figures them. No hand grinding and polishing required.




Yes, you can see it right here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc6Nj9R3NO4&noredirect=1

From what I've read (possibly in a post of Roland's), the machine polished lens set is about 1/4 wave and he hand figures it to 1/10 wave, 1/56 RMS, taking anywhere from 2 hours to a full day.

Tanveer.


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The Ardent
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 10/24/08

Loc: Virginia
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: BPO]
      #6071913 - 09/09/13 07:08 PM

You have Southern Cross, Eta Carinae, Magellanic clouds and Gondor.
Trade 'ya

Quote:

Patriotism is likely to play a significant role, unfortunately. In this particular debate it always does.




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David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
*****

Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: BPO]
      #6072270 - 09/09/13 10:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The only way that we would be able to prove which brand has the best correction would be to have one person with the same setup shooting the same object with the same seeing and the same person doing the processing and that person can't own a refractor so that he or she doesn't have a dog in the hunt.



Patriotism is likely to play a significant role, unfortunately. In this particular debate it always does.




Perhaps we could have a New Zealander do the test.

David


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BPO
sage


Reged: 02/23/10

Loc: South Island, NZ
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: The Ardent]
      #6072342 - 09/09/13 11:18 PM

Quote:

You have [...] Gondor.




After wracking my brain, trying to remember which constellation or object that was, I gave up and Googled it.



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BPO
sage


Reged: 02/23/10

Loc: South Island, NZ
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6072343 - 09/09/13 11:19 PM

Quote:

Perhaps we could have a New Zealander do the test.




Not me, though. I'm too pro Tak!



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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: Bill McNeal]
      #6072959 - 09/10/13 10:52 AM

The tidbit you're missing is "supply" and "demand". There is a very constrained supply of A-P refractors (a 10-year waitlist to buy a new one), and therefore very high demand, accounting for the high price per unit of aperture (though cheaper than Takahashi on that metric), and exceptionally high (often higher than new-retail) resale value. TEC has a short waitlist. Takahashi generally ships scopes from dealer stock.

But, to your main question on "brand", there is really little value in any brand. The real value is in the specific models and their properties. A brand, no matter how popular, that is backed with mediocre quality products isn't as valuable a brand as one backed by high quality products. I think the focus on "brand", therefore, is misguided. Better to talk about specific scopes and their pros and cons.

Regards,

Jim


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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: BPO]
      #6074636 - 09/11/13 09:18 AM

Quote:

IIRC, Tak's TOAs are optimised for imaging, rather than visual, and even Roland said for astrophotography he'd choose a TOA over one of his own.

But this kind of thread is certain to bring out the bitterest in fanboys.






I'm not a fanboy of any brand, but I certainly appreciate first rate optics in Zeiss APQs, AP scopes, and Tak refractors.

Can you please point to a source where Roland suggested Tak TOAs were better astrographs than his stable of apos?


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ManuelJ
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/19/05

Loc: Madrid, Spain
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: JJK]
      #6074898 - 09/11/13 11:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

IIRC, Tak's TOAs are optimised for imaging, rather than visual, and even Roland said for astrophotography he'd choose a TOA over one of his own.

But this kind of thread is certain to bring out the bitterest in fanboys.






I'm not a fanboy of any brand, but I certainly appreciate first rate optics in Zeiss APQs, AP scopes, and Tak refractors.

Can you please point to a source where Roland suggested Tak TOAs were better astrographs than his stable of apos?




It's no secret that the TOA series are the best corrected refractors available now. Specially the TOA 130.

Regards,
Manuel.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: JJK]
      #6074964 - 09/11/13 12:10 PM

Telescope design is an exercise in balancing pros and cons. Every design strikes a different balance. The user's objective is to figure out which scope's solution to the balancing equation most closely matches hist or her own preferences.

TOAs are great scopes if...

1. Cooldown times are not of much concern (enormous air space with not one but two low dispersion elements of "sluggish" thermal properties; and

2. Scope weight for a given aperture is not of much concern; the Tak TOAs are enormously heavy and imbalanced per inch of aperture; and

3. You don't mind spending the most per inch of aperture of any premium APO design; and

4. You don't mind that your scope will suffer fairly substantial depreciation if you buy new; and

5. You don't mind seeing one on every street corner.

So long as these "cons" aren't problems for you, you receive these virtues: no waiting to buy, top of the top in color correction, lovely workmanship and excellent optics.

As a traveling visual refractor user though, color correction is of less concern to me than other factors. Cooldown is important, as is easy of stable mounting. Because I use my scopes "hard", and they don't live in a dome or under the controlled environment of home, maximizing performance at the minimum cost is extremely important. The only largish Takahashi apochromat that comes close to the "guiltless use and abuse" price for me is the TSA-120.

We're lucky to have so many premium choices, as well as so many decent quality mid-market alternatives. It's gotten much easier to find a find a refractor that matches the user's balance preferences.

- Jim


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ManuelJ
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/19/05

Loc: Madrid, Spain
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6075200 - 09/11/13 02:13 PM

Quote:

Telescope design is an exercise in balancing pros and cons. Every design strikes a different balance. The user's objective is to figure out which scope's solution to the balancing equation most closely matches hist or her own preferences.

TOAs are great scopes if...

1. Cooldown times are not of much concern (enormous air space with not one but two low dispersion elements of "sluggish" thermal properties; and

2. Scope weight for a given aperture is not of much concern; the Tak TOAs are enormously heavy and imbalanced per inch of aperture; and

3. You don't mind spending the most per inch of aperture of any premium APO design; and

4. You don't mind that your scope will suffer fairly substantial depreciation if you buy new; and

5. You don't mind seeing one on every street corner.

So long as these "cons" aren't problems for you, you receive these virtues: no waiting to buy, top of the top in color correction, lovely workmanship and excellent optics.

As a traveling visual refractor user though, color correction is of less concern to me than other factors. Cooldown is important, as is easy of stable mounting. Because I use my scopes "hard", and they don't live in a dome or under the controlled environment of home, maximizing performance at the minimum cost is extremely important. The only largish Takahashi apochromat that comes close to the "guiltless use and abuse" price for me is the TSA-120.

We're lucky to have so many premium choices, as well as so many decent quality mid-market alternatives. It's gotten much easier to find a find a refractor that matches the user's balance preferences.

- Jim




TOA-130: 6200€
AP130GT: 7000€

Now I know why they are not popular here...

Regarding resale value: 6 months a not even 1 question about my AP for sale


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vahe
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/27/05

Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6075230 - 09/11/13 02:26 PM

Quote:


3. You don't mind spending the most per inch of aperture of any premium APO design;





The most recent AP 175 (6.88”) at $20,800 may very well hold the record of the most expensive per inch of aperture for apos under 7” in size.

Vahe


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t.r.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: vahe]
      #6075251 - 09/11/13 02:33 PM

Is it the most expensive??? The TEC 180 FL is $19,000 without the case, without a field flattener, without shipping, but you do get those extra 5mm pushing you over 7"!

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vahe
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/27/05

Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: t.r.]
      #6075297 - 09/11/13 02:48 PM

Quote:

Is it the most expensive??? The TEC 180 FL is $19,000 without the case, without a field flattener, without shipping, but you do get those extra 5mm pushing you over 7"!





Just think about what AP 175 price would be if fluorite was used instead of ED, another $4K on top of $20,800.

Vahe


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mgwhittle
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/24/11

Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: t.r.]
      #6075308 - 09/11/13 02:52 PM

Quote:

but you do get those extra 5mm pushing you over 7"!




Yeah.....my 175 feels so.....short changed!


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Joe Aguiar
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/10/07

Loc: none of your buss
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: mgwhittle]
      #6075321 - 09/11/13 02:56 PM

to me name brand is the first on my list.
joe


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BCNGreyCat
member
*****

Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Virginia, USA
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: ManuelJ]
      #6075353 - 09/11/13 03:13 PM

Quote:

Regarding resale value: 6 months a not even 1 question about my AP for sale




That might be because there was a lengthy discussion here about your particular Traveler here ...


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? new [Re: Joe Aguiar]
      #6075368 - 09/11/13 03:20 PM

OK, so what's your brand for super high-end APOs?

-Rich

Quote:

to me name brand is the first on my list.
joe




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PeterR280
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/27/13

Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? [Re: Joe Aguiar]
      #6075369 - 09/11/13 03:21 PM

It takes businesses years to build a brand image. It's the most valuable asset they have, It can be ruined very quickly.

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ManuelJ
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/19/05

Loc: Madrid, Spain
Re: Astro-Physics the Best Brand? [Re: BCNGreyCat]
      #6075506 - 09/11/13 04:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Regarding resale value: 6 months a not even 1 question about my AP for sale




That might be because there was a lengthy discussion here about your particular Traveler here ...




My Traveler is like any Traveler in the world. But not everybody is so critic as me.

Just get your Traveler outside at freezing temperatures and grab the focuser knob for some seconds with 4-5 rings defocused at 300x, and let the astigmatic party begin.

I can't quote here the mail from Ronaldo saying that is normal, if anyone interested, I will send that quote via PM or mail.


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