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textbook answer, but until we have a 'theory of Everything' I might add the word 'probably' in between 'is' & 'relevant'.

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But positron/electron annhilate into gamma rays, so their mass disappears. This principle has to apply to all virtual particles as they go away entirely.

And if more of the "negative" matter falls in vs "positive" matter and that negative matter evaporates trapped matter inside the BH it's mass will shrink, and there'll be a stream of virtualized particles that aren't consumed radiating away from the EH.

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The mass of the particles doesn't really "disappear", instead it is transformed into the momentum energy of the gamma ray photons. .....

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While the photon carries the energy of the mass, isn't the mass gone?

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It's not gone from the universe. I assume it's accounted for in the mass density of the cosmos.

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But positron/electron annhilate into gamma rays, so their mass disappears. This principle has to apply to all virtual particles as they go away entirely.

And if more of the "negative" matter falls in vs "positive" matter and that negative matter evaporates trapped matter inside the BH it's mass will shrink, and there'll be a stream of virtualized particles that aren't consumed radiating away from the EH.

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The mass of the particles doesn't really "disappear", instead it is transformed into the momentum energy of the gamma ray photons. .....

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While the photon carries the energy of the mass, isn't the mass gone?

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It's not gone from the universe. I assume it's accounted for in the mass density of the cosmos.

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You can't say that. mass and energy are different forms of the exact same thing.

Pesse (It is like saying the 'milk disappeared' when it turns into cream.) Mist

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virtual particles are created from uncertainty probability (I'm sure that's phrased wrong) in the zero energy state. They cannot be observed because they lie within the Heisenberg uncertainty error term. They are either too small or disappear too fast to detect - hence "virtual".

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That's why black holes evaporate. The energy to transform virtual into real has to come from somewhere and Hawking thus concluded that BH's HAVE to evaporate all else being equal.

Pesse (If only we can harness the zero vacume energy) Mist

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But positron/electron annhilate into gamma rays, so their mass disappears. This principle has to apply to all virtual particles as they go away entirely.

And if more of the "negative" matter falls in vs "positive" matter and that negative matter evaporates trapped matter inside the BH it's mass will shrink, and there'll be a stream of virtualized particles that aren't consumed radiating away from the EH.

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The mass of the particles doesn't really "disappear", instead it is transformed into the momentum energy of the gamma ray photons. .....

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While the photon carries the energy of the mass, isn't the mass gone?

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It's not gone from the universe. I assume it's accounted for in the mass density of the cosmos.

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Mass/Energy are interchangable, But photons have mo mass, if you converted the universe's mass into energy, I would presume there would be no mass, no gravity. Maybe this relates to the early universe before the higgs particles existed??

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Mass/Energy are interchangable, But photons have mo mass, if you converted the universe's mass into energy, I would presume there would be no mass, no gravity. Maybe this relates to the early universe before the higgs particles existed??

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Considering the source of that "textbook answer", it might be that 'probably' is still too strong a word!

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Check out the latest physics articles on Black Holes and Black Body radiation.

Everything we thought we knew about BH's may be getting turned on its head.

The new Collider getting built should allow us to detect Hawking radiation directly as well as give us insight into just how 'Black' a back hole truly is.

Pesse (If the new Polar Lander records the word 'Ouch!' just as it sits down does that mean I win our bet?) Mist

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Mass/Energy are interchangable, But photons have mo mass, if you converted the universe's mass into energy, I would presume there would be no mass, no gravity. Maybe this relates to the early universe before the higgs particles existed??

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It is thought that photons have no rest mass.

They do posses relativistic mass. That's how Solar sails work--through pressure generated by the momentum of photons slamming into the sail material.

the math is fairly simple too. Energy = (momentum)(c) (rest mass)

Since Photons probably have zero rest mass the equation is just Energy = (momentum)(c)

So it can't really be said that photons have no mass, only that they have no 'rest mass' and since photons don't exist with zero velocity. the statement is rendered mute anyway.

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I think it is wrong to talk about virtual particles in the same sense as one refers to matter and antimatter.

When an atom of matter meets an identical atom of antimatter they annihilate each other and what is left is energy in the form of radiation. the total energy contained in both atoms still exists in the universe, just in another form.

When Virtual partners interact, they cease to exist in our universe..they leave nothing behind.

A particle and antiparticle meeting are like two semis hitting each other head on with such force that they are both vaporized.

When a Virtual pair meet it is like they fall through a trap door and vanish from our Universe without a trace....

Pesse (...even CSI Miami couldn't find evidence of their prior existence.) mist

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Photons transfer monentium, But I don't think that means they exhibit mass. You can look at many examples in the electronics world where electro-magnetic fields transfer energy, but to the best of knowledge there isn't a mass transfer.

Look at a power transformer, where current flow in the primary uses electro-magnetic fields to induce currents in the secondary.

Also look at radio transmission between transmit and recieve antennas.

So how do photons transfer momentium? If movement of charged particles generates photons, I can see how the resulting photon when it's captured would apply a recoil force. Like if you took 2 speakers facing each other, applying power to one, which generates air pressure waves, and using the second one as a detector. The air that the wave exists in has mass in this case, but I don't know if I'd say the wave itself has any mass. I suspect something similar happens with photons.

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It's still my opinion that virtual particles, while they exist are normal in every way, that means when they annhilate they have to emit gamma's (or whatever form of energy that particle/anti-particle becomes). Now I agree that we don't seem to see these gamma's, maybe they are the source of energy that's borrowed to become the virtual particle in the first place?

I could also see that the original energy comes from some leakage from one of the collasped dimensions, and maybe the energy leaks out the same way...

Edited by Qkslvr (05/02/08 10:58 AM)

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Qkslvr - By 50/50 I meant the absorption rate across the event horizon of particle vs. antiparticle should be even, one type of particle should not be absorbed more frequently that the other.

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Photons transfer monentium, But I don't think that means they exhibit mass. You can look at many examples in the electronics world where electro-magnetic fields transfer energy, but to the best of knowledge there isn't a mass transfer.

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Photons transfer monentium, But I don't think that means they exhibit mass. You can look at many examples in the electronics world where electro-magnetic fields transfer energy, but to the best of knowledge there isn't a mass transfer.

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You keep saying that.

But mass and energy are the same thing. You can't say that a photon can transfer energy but not mass.

That's like saying you were hit by a Ford Bronco but not hit by a car. E=MC^2 is the basis of modern physics.

So if a photon transfers energy to something you can plug the amount into the formula above and compute the mass transferred.

Pesse (Time for a bedtime story below) Mist

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So you're saying that a radio station is losing mass as it radiates photons?

I say energy and mass are interchangable, with a given amount of energy being able to be converted into a given amount of mass, and visa versa. But that doesn't make them the same.

Electrostatic fields and magnetic fields are interchangable, electronics relies on this fact. They both store energy, and can be converted from one form to the other and back. But they're not the same. IMO much like mass and energy.

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So you're saying that a radio station is losing mass as it radiates photons?

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So you're saying that a radio station is losing mass as it radiates photons?

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Pesse (I didn't say it, Einstein did.) Mist

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E=MC^2 does not mean that E and M are the same, Just related (by C^2).

If a photon in motion has mass, how can it move at C if infinite energy is required to accelerate mass to C?

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