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ShadowalkerModerator
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Rocket Engines 101
      #3152121 - 06/08/09 11:19 AM

Occasionally the subject comes up in this forum so I thought I’d give some explanations of some rocket engine terms.

Most rocket engines make thrust by burning their propellants in a combustion chamber. The thrust out of the nozzle is a combination of the reactive mass (all the “stuff” coming out) and the pressure at the nozzle.

The propellants (fuel and oxidizer) must be injected into the combustion chamber. If the chamber pressure is 1000 pounds per square inch (psi), the propellants must be at a higher pressure to flow. There are two ways this can be accomplished in a liquid propellant engine: Pressure-fed or pump-fed.

In a pressure-fed engine the tanks are pressurized to the desired pressure with a reserve of some pressurent gas – helium is often used. The disadvantage is that the tanks must be able to withstand a higher pressure than a non-pressure-fed system. That makes them heavier. The advantage is a simpler engine.

In a pump-fed engine the propellants are pumped into the combustion chamber. A turbo-pump is usually used. The advantage is the requirements of the fuel and oxidizer tanks are less (less pressure in the tanks). The disadvantage is that the engine is more complex and costly.

There are two ways to pump the propellants: Gas generator and staged combustion.

First the gas generator. A gas generator is a small rocket engine that uses a portion of the propellants to drive a turbine. The turbine shaft is coupled to pumps that pump the liquid fuel and oxidizer into the combustion chamber. The turbine exhaust is dumped overboard. Sometimes the turbine exhaust is used for engine vectoring or roll control for the vehicle. RS-68 works this way. The disadvantage is the turbine gas provides no propulsion. As such it’s less efficient than staged combustion. The advantage is that the engine is simpler and the engine pressures are lower.

In a staged combustion engine there are gas generators but they are called “pre-burners.” In the case of the Space Shuttle main engine (SSME) there are two pre-burners. In both all of the fuel propellant (hydrogen) and a small amount of the oxidizer is enjected into both pre-burners. All of the oxidizer is consumed. What is left is a small amount of steam and a large amount of high temperature, high pressure hydrogen. This drives the turbine for the main pumps – One pre-burner drives the hydrogen pump and the other drives the oxygen pump. The turbine outlet (hot hydrogen) flows directly into the combustion chamber, where it is mixed with the output of the oxygen pump for combustion.

So in a staged combustion engine all propellants contribute to thrust. None is dumped overboard. The disadvantage is that the pressures are much higher. The pre-burners must operate at a very high pressure to drive the turbines and then to have enough pressure left over to make its way into the main combustion chamber. The advantage is much higher efficiency than a gas-generator engine.

In the case of SSME there’s another difficulty: The oxygen pump. As I said before, the turbine is driven by hot high pressure hydrogen. This turbine is driving a pump carrying liquid oxygen. Not a good mix! So the seals are extremely important. We don’t want that to mix. The Russians solved that problem by using an oxygen rich pre-burner for the LOX pump side. Instead of running that pre-burner fuel-rich they run it oxygen rich. So the turbine is driven by hot oxygen instead of hot hydrogen. This makes the engine less hazardous to operate. Oh, and the fuel in most Russian engines is RP-1 (Rocket Propellant 1), not hydrogen, but the principle is the same. The RD180 used by the Atlas 5 is such an engine.

From another post, here’s my explanation of Specific Impulse (Isp):

Specific impulse is the measure of efficiency for rocket engines. It's the thrust of the engine divided by the mass flow rate of propellants. Units are in seconds. If an engine produced 1000 pounds of thrust and consumed 10 pounds of propellant per second, the specific impulse would be 1000 divided by 10 or 100 seconds.

--------------------
Tom Nicolaides
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llanitedaveModerator
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3152142 - 06/08/09 11:33 AM

That's fascinating information about the pumps, Tom. I had no idea how they were run. That's just one more item in all the tradeoffs and compromises that engineers face when trying to get the best performance out of a system.

--------------------
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: llanitedave]
      #3152608 - 06/08/09 04:23 PM

Thanks Tom, I too had wondered how the turbo pumps worked.

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groz
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Qkslvr]
      #3153080 - 06/08/09 09:09 PM

ok, that was rockets 101, let me add the -102 talk

The thrust of a rocket engine comes specifically from accelerating the hot gasses out the exhaust nozzle. The concept is basically simplicity in itself. Hot gases are generated in the combustion chamber, and fed into the nozzle. The nozzle itself is essentially a venturi. A venturi system has a property that the rockets capitalize on. Slow moving gasses will accelerate thru the exit, but will reach a 'terminal velocity' when the venturi becomes 'choked', and thats when shock waves have developed at the point of smallest diameter, and gasses flowing at this point will reach sonic velocity, but no higher, they are restricted by the shock waves.

The neat thing about a venturi running 'choked' is this, as the gasses pass thru the shock waves at the choke point, and into the expansion chamber, they will accelerate beyond sonic velocity during the expansion. How much they accelerate is a function of a bunch of things, but, the two that are most important, the back pressure (ambient air) behind the nozzle, and the shape of the nozzle itself.

So, the predominant factors in determining how much thrust can come from a rocket run along these lines (very simplified). Combustion in the chamber must produce pressures high enough that the choke point in the venturi remains fully choked. Exactly how much exhaust gas can escape the chamber is a function of the exit diameter, and the sonic velocity for that gas at the prevailing temperature pressure. How much it accelerates is a function of nozzle shape, and back pressure. All of these combine to produce the mass flow of gas, and it's acceleration. Mass flow + acceleration + simple newtonian physics will translate into a number to quantify the thrust produced.

The important things to keeping a rocket running correctly, pressure in the combustion chamber must be kept high enough to maintain 'fully choked' at the chamber exit, ie entrance to the expansion section. From there it's simple newtonian physics combined with not so simple dynamics of high pressure / high temperature gas flow.

The other _slightly important_ detail is that back pressure mentioned above. A nozzle operating in vaccuum has no back pressure, while one operating at sea level has 14.7 psi of back pressure. That makes a HUGE difference in the design of a nozzle to maximize benefit from a given quantity of fuel, and, is the real reason rockets are staged, with one or two stages built for the lift with atmospheric back pressure, and, later stages optimized for zero back pressure in a vaccuum. For reference, just google up some old photos of the saturn V launch stack, compare the shape of the nozzles on the first lifting stage, with that of the nozzles on the third stage use for the trans lunar boost phase. They are shaped dramatically differently, the 5 nozzles in the first stage were optimized for significant atmospheric back pressure, then stage 2 was set up for little/no back pressure, while the third stage and command module nozzles were set up for hard vaccuum.

A lot of the launch stacks today utilize solid boosters for the 'heavy lift' of the initial launch, and any rockets actually burning at that point, have nozzles optimized either for vaccuum, or, close to it. the solid boosters strapped on the sides are doing the heavy lift for getting up out of the 'sticky' part of the atmosphere.

I've always wondered about the ssme nozzles, they have a shape that suggests they are optimized for at least _some_ back pressure, but, I've never found any reference to state just how much ? Are they operating optimally at the initial lift in the lower atmosphere, or, are they operating optimally during the high atmosphere portion of the flight ?


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ShadowalkerModerator
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: groz]
      #3153778 - 06/09/09 10:45 AM

Quote:

...Slow moving gasses will accelerate thru the exit, but will reach a 'terminal velocity' when the venturi becomes 'choked'...

...I've always wondered about the ssme nozzles, they have a shape that suggests they are optimized for at least _some_ back pressure, but, I've never found any reference to state just how much ? Are they operating optimally at the initial lift in the lower atmosphere, or, are they operating optimally during the high atmosphere portion of the flight ?




Choked flow through a venturi! Indeed. We also use that property of fluids to regulate fluid flow. Many rocket engine components require a fixed flow rate. To test them we often use a venturi designed to choke at the desired flow rate. Works pretty good. Of course I'm just a dumb old electrical engineer and don't really understand these fluid dynamics things

You're right about SSME being designed for sea level AND high altitude operation. At 100 percent thrust the nozzle works at sea level, allowing gas expansion to work properly. At thrust levels much below 80% the flame will separate from the surface of the nozzle and cause instability that could and probably would destroy the engine.

At high altitude the back pressure is low enough to prevent this at throttle down. In fact during the altitude of "max Q" (maximum dynamic pressure), the shuttle engines throttle down so the vehicle moves through that altitude more slowly. But by that altitude the atmospheric pressure is low enough.

To test SSMEs at sea level (which is what we do here), we usually run them at just over 100% thrust. To throttle we need to use a diffuser, which is essentially a nozzle extension allowing throttling to about 60% thrust.

I believe SSME is optimized for high altitude flight.

A bit of trivia: In the early 90s we had a project called ASRM - Advanced Solid Rocket Motor. This was designed to correct the flaws in the SRMs (that lead to the Challenger disaster). The plan was to build the correct thrust profile into the ASRM such that the SSMEs would not need to throttle down. So the ASRM would do the throttle down. We built half a rocket factory in northern Mississippi and a complete static test stand in southern Mississippi before that project was cancelled. *sigh*

Back on the altitude stuff. The Saturn upper stages used the J2 engine. The J2 engine has been selected to propel the upper stage of Ares 1 and Ares 5 (also serve as an earth departure stage for the latter). We're building a new test stand to test the new version of the J2, now known as J2X. To test at simulated altitude we're building a giant tube that has a vacuum. The vacuum is generated using chemical steam generators to suck the air out of the long tube (again using the venturi effect). Not really sure how that works. Again, I'm just a dumb old electrical type.

My office sits in the test stand that tests the RS68. It's tested at sea level. They don't attach the nozzle for these tests. This test stand also tested the S1C (Saturn 5 1st stage), the Space Shuttle Main Propulsion test article (a cluster of three SSMEs), single SSMEs, the Delta 4 1st stage and is slated to test the Ares 1 and Ares 5 upper stages.

--------------------
Tom Nicolaides
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3153826 - 06/09/09 11:19 AM

Tom--do you think J2-X is really gonna happen?

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ShadowalkerModerator
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: imjeffp]
      #3153865 - 06/09/09 11:47 AM

Quote:

Tom--do you think J2-X is really gonna happen?




Yes, I think it is. We've put up the steel for the A3 test stand - a 250 Megabuck project. We've been doing tests on the powerhead (gas generators and turbopumps). Regardless of what manned access to space looks like it will need a robust upper stage. The dual design of 2nd stage for Ares 1 and Ares 5 and earth departure stage helps too.

I'll post a couple of photos of the test stands here.

--------------------
Tom Nicolaides
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ShadowalkerModerator
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3153898 - 06/09/09 12:01 PM Attachment (43 downloads)

A test of the RS68 on the B1 test stand. B1 is the left side of the stand. The right side is B2, where the S1C , Shuttle MPTA and the Delta 4 was tested. Ares upper stage is scheduled to go into B2. B1 will continue with RS68.

This is about T + 1 second. Photo taken by me with my Palm pilot from about 1500 feet away on top of the Test Control Center.

--------------------
Tom Nicolaides
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3153908 - 06/09/09 12:11 PM

So what about the idea of a variable-geometry nozzle that can be adjusted for both atmospheric and vacuum operations? I know jet fighters can vary their exhaust geometry -- is the issue for rockets weight or exhaust temperatures, or simply added expense?

--------------------
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ShadowalkerModerator
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: llanitedave]
      #3153920 - 06/09/09 12:17 PM

Well, yes. There is such an engine design and we've tested it It's called the Linear Aerospike Engine and the design has been around since the 1960s.

In this Wikipedia Article you can see the basic design and read about the theory. The photo is the engine we tested on the A1 test stand some years ago. With a J2 powerhead (gas generator and turbo pumps), it was supposed to go in the X33 Single Stage to Orbit vehicle. Yet another cancelled program.

--------------------
Tom Nicolaides
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Edited by Shadowalker (06/09/09 12:18 PM)


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Joseph Gillman
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3154200 - 06/09/09 02:54 PM

Thanks for the explanations.

As for specific impulse it always bugged me that the units were seconds.

isn't thrust in pounds-FORCE while the mass flow rate of propellants in pound-MASS per second? Those units don't directly cancel, what am I missing?

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ShadowalkerModerator
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Joseph Gillman]
      #3154307 - 06/09/09 03:50 PM

Quote:


As for specific impulse it always bugged me that the units were seconds.

isn't thrust in pounds-FORCE while the mass flow rate of propellants in pound-MASS per second? Those units don't directly cancel, what am I missing?




Absolutely correct. Thrust is in pounds-force. Mass is in pounds mass. They play a little loose with the units. Technically thrust should be in pounds and mass in either pounds-mass or slugs. Which would give Isp in units of pound-seconds per pound-mass or pound-seconds per slug. Or in metric units, newton-seconds per kilogram.

Those units probably reduce further. Lemme see. Let's stick with metric. A newton is a kilogram-meter per second squared. So a newton-second per kilogram would reduce to meters per second. Hmmmm same as speed. That doesn't make sense. But that's what the units come to unless I'm wrong

Still, it works. And everyone knows what we're talking about. Even if we don't sometimes.

--------------------
Tom Nicolaides
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— Wernher von Braun


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ShadowalkerModerator
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3154401 - 06/09/09 04:43 PM

Here are just a few:

Operational rocket engines, Thrust, Isp, Cycle, Country

F1, 1.5M lbs, 260, LOX-RP-1, GG, US
J2, 230K lbs, 419, LOX-Hydrogen, GG, US
SSME, 450K lbs, 450, LOX-Hydrogen, SC, US
RS-68, 700K lbs, 410, LOX-Hydrogen, GG, US
RS-27, 235K lbs, 302, LOX-RP-1, GG, US
Merlin, 138K lbs, 303, LOX-RP-1, GG, US
NK33/AJ26, 394 K lbs, 334, LOX-RP-1, SC, Russia
RD253, 400K lbs, 316, Hydrazine, SC, Russia
RD-180, 933K lbs, 338, LOX-RP-1, SC, Russia

--------------------
Tom Nicolaides
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3154433 - 06/09/09 05:05 PM

Just for grins, you should add New Horizon's ion engine ISP to you list....

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Joseph Gillman]
      #3154742 - 06/09/09 08:38 PM

One of the reasons Isp is used as it allows the OA to keep track of the propellant budget by counting the truster on pulses. Between counting the thruster on pulses or the total thruster on time you can calculate the amount of fuel used during a maneuver.

Provided the REA is operating within known efficiencies and you know fuel tank pressures, fuel tank and fuel line temps along with the spacecraft attitude and CG you can calculate your Delta V based on the total number of thruster pulses or total thruster on times.

It should be noted that a 5 minute continuous burn will produce a different Delta V than let's say 300 one second on pulses at a 100% duty cycle.

If you count individual thruster pulses in an attempt to calculate total thruster on time, you just have to be sure you model the ramp up and ramp down of the thruster so you get a real account of the actual thruster on time during that 1 second thruster pulse.

Because of the ramp up and ramp down time the actual on pulse time at the effective efficiency will be something less than 1 second.

There are a number of other very interesting spacecraft related topics we could discuss here. Things like attitude control systems. They consist of a wide range designs that employ devices such as thrusters, momentum wheels, magnetic torquers, solar trim tabs (solar sails), sun sensors, earth sensors, gyros, star trackers and devices. One of the keys to telling a spacecraft where to go is you have to know where it is are first.

Deployment mechanisms is another one. Things like pyros, memory metals and my favorite..frangibolts.

Spacecraft, manned or unmanned have become so common that people more or less take their launch and operation for granted. But the environment they have to operate in is far from kind. I still think the design and engineering of them is fascinating.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Qkslvr]
      #3154986 - 06/09/09 10:44 PM

Quote:

Just for grins, you should add New Horizon's ion engine ISP to you list....




Actually, I think New Horizons is on a free-fall trajectory- No in-transit propulsion. It does have some hydrazine thrusters for attitude control, though.

Deep Space 1 - the comet explorer has ion propulsion. It was launched over 10 years ago and is no longer in service. The in-space engine was a Hughes/Boeing built xenon reactive mass ion propulsion engine. It produced about 50 mili-Newtons of thrust with an Isp of about 3100 seconds - 10 times more than traditional chemical propulsion. 50 mili-newtons is about 12 mili-pounds of thrust. Two tenths of an ounce of thrust. Not much But then it could operate for days or weeks. That makes up for a lot! Read about it here.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: JAT Observatory]
      #3155031 - 06/09/09 11:14 PM

Quote:


There are a number of other very interesting spacecraft related topics we could discuss here. Things like attitude control systems. They consist of a wide range designs that employ devices such as thrusters, momentum wheels, magnetic torquers, solar trim tabs (solar sails), sun sensors, earth sensors, gyros, star trackers and devices. One of the keys to telling a spacecraft where to go is you have to know where it is are first.

Deployment mechanisms is another one. Things like pyros, memory metals and my favorite..frangibolts.

Spacecraft, manned or unmanned have become so common that people more or less take their launch and operation for granted. But the environment they have to operate in is far from kind. I still think the design and engineering of them is fascinating.




True. To that list I'd add propellants and ignition systems too. LOX-Hydrogen, LOX-RP-1 are by no means the only fuel/oxydizers out there. Another class of propellants are storable. The disadvantage of LOX/Hydrogen is that they need to be kept at very low temperatures: -423 Deg F for LH and -300 Deg F for LOX. RP-1 is a petrolium distillate and is liquid at normal temperatures. There are others including Hydrazine - a particularly nasty chemical, it's storable at room temperature and is commonly used for propulsion. Another is Hydrogen Peroxide. Also nasty stuff.

Then there's ignition. Some engines use spark plugs. Others use detonators. Some use a small amount of a hypergolic chemical - chemicals that when mixed catch on fire. Some engines use hypergolic propellants. Open the valves and the engine comes on - a model of simplicity. The engines on the Apollo lunar lander used such engines. When you're in space that engine better come on when you need it to.

Solid rocket engines. Most use powdered aluminum as the fuel and ammonium perchlorate as the oxidizer. Efficiency is about the same as LOX-RP.

Hybrid rocket motors - Uses a solid fuel and liquid oxidizer.

--------------------
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3155402 - 06/10/09 08:30 AM

I was a rocket nut as a kid and young man. I still find them fascinating.

I've heard that the number of mach diamonds visible in the rocket exhaust is a function of the mach number of the exhaust velocity. Is this true? What produces mach diamonds to begin with?

I used to fiddle with building small solid fuel AP/HTPB motors. I chickened out (common sense) at around 2 ounce total grain size, so never made anything large.

One of the problems plaguing my small motors was "chuffing", and you probably recognize that if I am using correct terminology. The problem was largely cured by the addition of powdered Al. Even though my motors were too small for the Al to up the Isp before exiting the nozzle.

Thanks for all of the fascinating info.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3155468 - 06/10/09 09:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just for grins, you should add New Horizon's ion engine ISP to you list....




Actually, I think New Horizons is on a free-fall trajectory- No in-transit propulsion. It does have some hydrazine thrusters for attitude control, though.





Qkslvr was probably thinking of Dawn, which coincidentally re-ignited its ion engine just the day before he posted.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: gazerjim]
      #3155470 - 06/10/09 09:38 AM

Thanks Tom!
10x chemical rockets, now we might be getting somewhere, literally!

One last question, When they start the ssme, it looks like they start it fuel rich, then up lean the mixture out, correct?

--------------------
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: astrotrf]
      #3155472 - 06/10/09 09:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Just for grins, you should add New Horizon's ion engine ISP to you list....




Actually, I think New Horizons is on a free-fall trajectory- No in-transit propulsion. It does have some hydrazine thrusters for attitude control, though.





Qkslvr was probably thinking of Dawn, which coincidentally re-ignited its ion engine just the day before he posted.




Yeah! Just what Terry said

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Qkslvr]
      #3155521 - 06/10/09 10:33 AM

This is a great topic, folks! I hope it continues for a while.

--------------------
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10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Qkslvr]
      #3155546 - 06/10/09 10:53 AM

Quote:

Thanks Tom!
10x chemical rockets, now we might be getting somewhere, literally!

One last question, When they start the ssme, it looks like they start it fuel rich, then up lean the mixture out, correct?




Yes, ion propulsion shows a lot of promise for planetary space flight. Hard to imagine one for lifting out of Earth's gravity well, though.

Yes, most rocket engines start out fuel rich, including SSME. SSME runs its entire cycle fuel rich. It's possible to get higher energy with a critical, or stoichiometric mix of fuel/oxidizer, but the temperatures are much higher. Higher than most materials can handle.

Sometimes we inadvertantly pass through the stoichiometric point. We refer to that as the engine going "hardware rich." The actual engine metal parts begin to burn

The operating mixture ratio of SSME is about 6:1. That is, 6 parts hydrogen to 1 part oxygen.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: llanitedave]
      #3155573 - 06/10/09 11:12 AM Attachment (40 downloads)

Quote:

This is a great topic, folks! I hope it continues for a while.




Glad you like it, Dave.

Here's an old photo of the Saturn 5 1st stage being tested back in the 60s. This is the same test stand testing the RS68 that I posted earlier, except 40 years earlier. My office is on level one of this structure which measures some 350 feet high. It's the B1/B2 test stand at Stennis Space Center. The S1C was tested on B2. RS68 is being tested on B1.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3155598 - 06/10/09 11:29 AM

Quote:


The operating mixture ratio of SSME is about 6:1. That is, 6 parts hydrogen to 1 part oxygen.



Is that by weight or by molar? If it's by weight, then it's running VERY fuel-rich...

Jarad

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3155663 - 06/10/09 11:59 AM

I was stationed at NAS Pensacola as a MARCAD (Marine Aviation Cadet) in early 1962. One day, Werner von Braun visited the base, and I (along with about a thousand other cadets) was privileged to hear him speak in the large Building 33 auditorium. Next to him on the stage was a table, and on the table was a row of scale models of all the various manned-flight vehicles then operational, under development or proposed. I no longer remember the pecking order from small to large and larger, but the series started with the Redstone and then progressed upwards to Atlas, Nova, Jupiter, Saturn, etc. If memory serves, he mentioned that when a Redstone missile (the smallest of the lot) took off, it required an astounding 13,000 gallons of water per second to cool the launch pad. Thus the suddenly immense billowing clouds of steam which accompanied every launch. To provide that volume of water to the pumps, there were large canals running from the ocean to the launch pad at Cape Canaveral. I can't imagine what it would take to cool the launch complex when the shuttle engines and boosters ignite nowadays, but those steam clouds we see on TV instantly dwarf what is a very large vehicle.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Jarad]
      #3155723 - 06/10/09 12:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:


The operating mixture ratio of SSME is about 6:1. That is, 6 parts hydrogen to 1 part oxygen.



Is that by weight or by molar? If it's by weight, then it's running VERY fuel-rich...

Jarad




oops.. sorry. I had it wrong. It's 6:1 but that's Oxygen to Hydrogen, by weight. Becaue Oxygen is so much denser than hydrogen that still makes it fuel rich.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3155735 - 06/10/09 12:45 PM

So, Oxygen is MW 16 vs 1 for hydrogen, so that makes it just under 3:1 molar ratio. And 2:1 would be required to burn 100% of the Hydrogen into H2O, so about a 50% excess.

Is that right?

Jarad

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3155854 - 06/10/09 02:02 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

On the left is the A2 test stand, the oldest at Stennis Space Center. It was originally used to test the 2nd stage of the Saturn 5 moon rocket. The 2nd stage consisted of 5 J2 hydrogen/oxygen engines. A2 is currently configured to test and certify for flight space shuttle main engines. After only a few more tests A2 is going to be shut down and converted to something else. A2 was completed around 1966.

On the right is the newest test stand, under construction. This is A3 - designed to test single J2X hydrogen/oxygen engines. The J2X is to power the 2nd stage of Shuttle's successor, the Ares1/Orion Crew capsule and the earth departure stage of the Ares 5. What's unique about this stand is that it's being built to test the J2X in a vacuum. Twenty seven chemical steam generators are used to create a venturi effect (creating a simulated altitude of 100,000 ft) in a long diffuser into which the engine is fired. The idea is to test the engine under actual flight conditions.

Photo taken by me a few days ago from level 10 of the B1/B2 test stand.

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Edited by Shadowalker (06/10/09 02:05 PM)


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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3155881 - 06/10/09 02:22 PM

I wish I got to fire big rocket engines at work.

No fair!

Jarad

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Edited by Jarad (06/10/09 02:22 PM)


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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Jarad]
      #3156852 - 06/11/09 01:17 AM

I want to be a rocket scientist when I grow up.

Not really. But I absolutely admire what you guys (and gals) do.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: llanitedave]
      #3157559 - 06/11/09 02:24 PM

Seriously, this has been a really good thread. lots of good info, and some great pictures.

Please be sure to post some more when they set up for testing those new engines!

Jarad

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Jarad]
      #3157627 - 06/11/09 03:02 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

Well, here's another vintage photo. It's of the Saturn 2nd stage being lifted into the A2 test stand. This is the same test stand as in the earlier photo I posted (with A3 in the background). In this photo, taken around 1967, you can see the B1/B2 test stand in the background, which was then under construction.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3157733 - 06/11/09 04:07 PM

That is cool!

I still remember driving into KSC and driving beside the Saturn 4B they have there, it boggles the mind that that thing would lift off the ground and rise straight up, and the Saturn 5 was even bigger!

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Qkslvr]
      #3158935 - 06/12/09 12:03 PM

Ok, well, keeping with the original theme of the thread, there's a whole host of issues that come into play contemplating rocket engines. The one most folks get focussed on, is the efficiency, typically in terms of the Isp. Isp mattters a lot if your rocket has already been delivered to an orbital location (or higher), and you have expended great energy into designing the maximum benefit, from the minimum mass delivered to that location. But, in the early lift phase of a rocket flight, Isp is only a small factor.

An all up stack sitting on the pad will have a given mass, which translates into a weight based on local gravity, typically considered to be 9.81 m/s^2, or 32.2 ft/s^2 for those still living in the dark ages In order to lift that mass vertically, the first important detail, thrust has to exceed weight. So, it doesn't matter how efficient the rocket is, if it cannot deliver the impluse fast enough, it isn't going anywhere, and the age old adage of 'gravity prevails' will win. How fast the rocket will accelerate off the pad is trivially simple to calculate, thrust/weight is a known quantity, and will translate into a value for acceleration, and that's exactly the acceleration you get, in the very early stages of the lift, the gravity well is the predominant factor, and outweighs all other factors by orders of magnitude. Ofc, when you look at how fast a rocket consumes it's fuels, and, how much of the actual launch mass is fuel, you realize, acceleration isn't constant, it increases dramatically thru the initial burns, because weight is decreasing at a substantial rate. Efficiency is a _bit_ of a concern for a first stage lifter, but, of far more concern, is the ability of the engine to deliver enough thrust. Getting fuel to the launch pad is cheap, delivering fuel to orbit is expensive, so brute force prevails over efficiency for the initial lift.

Now, apply that acceleration for a little while, and, now you start to get an appreciable velocity, and since it's travelling within the atmosphere, that means aerodynamic drag. Drag can be calculated quite simply as well, the surface area and geometry are fixed, do not change. But, the other really important factors are the velocity and altitude. Drag is a function of the square of velocity and the density of the air. Air density is a logarithmic function of altitude. Both of these explanations are rather simplified, because in reality, the equations get somewhat more complex for altitudes above troposphere, and velocities running into hypersonic, but, the gist of the issue is, the heavy lift phase occurs in the troposphere and stratosphere, at subsonic and supersonic velocity ranges.

So, when you light the fires, and let go of the rocket, it's going to accelerate up off the pad. In a short time, aerodynamic forces start to build, and, after another period, they actually become larger than gravitational forces. The key to designing a configuration that can actually get thru all of this becomes a huge balancing act in the 'number crunch'. The slower the vehicle accelerates, the longer it will have to do so, meaning more fuels required. The faster it acclerates, the quicker we get into huge aerodynamic force ranges, and the more fuel we need to overcome aerodynamic drag. Somewhere in the middle of all that, is a the sweet spot, a trajectory that requires the minimum total fuel to get above the atmosphere, and up to orbital velocity. Accelerating a little faster while still at low altitude, burns enough fuel early on, it wont have enough left to actually reach orbit. Accelerating a little slower down low, means there is still not enough fuel to actually reach orbit, it was burned early on. Somewhere between these points is the optimal trajectory, which actually puts the rocket above the atmosphere, with enough fuel still in the tanks, it can accelerate to an orbital velocity. Finding this trajectory is a balancing act playing acceleration / velocity against altitude / air density.

Now, there's a few other places that constraints will come into play. It's generally accepted that if the cargo is human, 9g is a maximum accleration the cargo can sustain for a short period, and 5g for a longer period. The vehicle itself will have maximum aerodynamic loading limits. On the shuttle, this comes from the fuel line joints between the external tank and the shuttle body, it is the limiting factor on the 'Max Q'. Q is the aerodynamic pressure that increases with the square of velocity, and drops logarithmically with altitude. These factors make the number crunch even more complex, because not only does one have to find the trajectory which burns mimimum fuel as altitude and velocity vary, that trajectory cannot introduce conditions that exceed these limitations. The shuttle has throttles, which make it a lot easier for the trajectory folks, they can dial down the thrust a bit after weight drops, but air density hasn't dropped enough yet. Without throttles, that's not possible, so you end up re-thinking the whole mess. Maximum g loading at the top end of a lift stage was a serious consideration for the Apollo launches, they had 3 fragile humans, and one rather fragile lunar lander module sitting atop the launch stack.

Solid rockets are really good at providing brute force thrust for short periods, but, they quickly become to inefficient for longer duration periods of thrusting. And that's why so many vehicles in use today, use a number of solid rocket stages for the initial lift, to get out of the heaviest part of the atmosphere, then use far more efficient rockets to finish the job of climbing thru stratosphere and accelerate to orbital velocity.

People always refer to the 'gravity well' of mother earth as the thing making access to space difficult, but, it's not the most important factor. The atmosphere is actually an equal or larger factor. On a typical launch trajectory to orbit, as much or more fuel is expended combatting aerodynamic drag as is expended on the accleration to overcome gravitational forces. On the bright side, the atmosphere provides a 'free ride' for the return trip, decelerating down from orbital velocity. For a round trip, the atmopshere becomes 'a wash', problem outbound, asset inbound, and the two issues offset each other. for the one way to orbit trip, it's just a problem, not an asset.

As for the term 'rocket scientist', pretty much everything in this field is a large compilation of engineering problems, normally worked and solved by the engineers. The scientists are to busy writing grant proposals to bother with mundane things like rocketry.

Edited by groz (06/12/09 12:12 PM)


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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: groz]
      #3160017 - 06/12/09 11:41 PM

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. I learned a lot.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: MRoedel]
      #3160551 - 06/13/09 11:16 AM

Groz,

Any chance you could moonlight out here at Vandenberg for a while? Your descriptions of rocket propulsion are far more thorough (and understandable) than some of the instructors I listened to many years back.

Thanks for some very interesting reading.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: molniyabeer]
      #3160668 - 06/13/09 12:47 PM

Great post, Groz!
When I was a kid, I found it fascinating reading notes at the time that the thrust put out by the engines of the Saturn V was rated at 7.5 million pounds, and the fueled weight of the vehicle was something like 7.6 million pounds. I didn't understand how the rocket could weigh more than the thrust and still take off. I wasn't aware how much of that fuel weight was lost in the few seconds between ignition and liftoff.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: llanitedave]
      #3160788 - 06/13/09 02:13 PM

Quote:

I wasn't aware how much of that fuel weight was lost in the few seconds between ignition and liftoff.




There's actually more to it than that. One problem facing engineers with early rockets, there was little/no margin for error on the fuel load, so, a brute force solution was taken. When you roll a rocket out to the pad, bolt it down with explosive bolts. Now fill it up with more fuel than it can lift. Final step, put strain guages on the bolts holding the rocket down.

When you light the fires, the strain on the bolts is zero, weight exceeds thrust, but shortly thereafter, thrust starts to exceed weight as the weight decreases. When thrust/weight ratio reaches the magic number, measured at the strain guages, hit the button that blows the explosive bolts, and off she goes. The magic number comes back to determining the minimum acceleration required up off the pad which will allow for some semblance of control early on. This is a technique that guarantees the rocket leaves the pad with the maximum possible fuel load.

But, there were drawbacks to doing it this way too. Everybody has seen the video of a rocket starting up off the pad, then falling back down into a huge fireball. That's what happens when thrust/weight is _just_ over 1, and the engine sputters a bit. Another real problem, controlling that thing so it didn't hit the tower after initially letting it go. With velocity near zero, there's no aerodynamic pressure to use for control, and between liftoff and clearing the tower is an awful scary regime for a rocket. Early on, test launches sat and waited for periods of zero wind.


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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: groz]
      #3163346 - 06/15/09 01:20 AM

This is indeed a fascinating thread.

Some books written for the public mention the incredible levels acoustic energy inside a rocket motor. Can someone tell us if problems associated with that are solved on the computer nowadays before testing? Seems like quite a few designs were lost in the old days due to "screeching" and other weird resonances.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: gazerjim]
      #3163377 - 06/15/09 02:03 AM

While I don;t know about the rocket side I know from a payload point of view while we do perform computer modeling, but we also still do actual acoustic testing in order to qualify new hardware and for acceptance of flight hardware. The testing is done in a huge chamber with a large air powered sound source. This way we know exactly what affect the acoustic signature of the launch vehicle will have on the spacecraft. Even with the thick steel doors closed and ear plugs, it still sound like a rocket lifting off.

But it is not just the acoustic vibration that can be an issue it is the combination of both the physical sine and random vibration that is transfered from the launch vehicle to the spacecraft along with the acoustic vibration the spacecraft sees when its inside the fairing during launch.

Sometimes things break or come off during acoustic or vibration testing. Then the structural or material guys have to go fix the problem.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: JAT Observatory]
      #3168685 - 06/17/09 09:16 PM

Quote:

Sometimes things break or come off during acoustic or vibration testing. Then the structural or material guys have to go fix the problem.




In that vein, I'll share this story I heard many years ago from an old aerospace engineer. Seems back in the day before all the super computers to do modeling of launch loads, the engineers needed to figure out how beefy to make the supporting structure of a particular satellite. They knew roughly what sort of loads it could expect upon launch so they way over built the thing and put it on the shaker table. It didn't break so they got out the grinders and thinned it down a tad. Shook it again and it still didn't break. So they shaved some more. This went on until it broke. Then they backed up a couple itterations and figured that was a pretty good balance between strength and weight. Practical engineering at it's best!

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: molniyabeer]
      #3169082 - 06/18/09 02:33 AM

Ditto Dave's comment about you guys having fantastic jobs.

Reading this thread makes obvious why the term "rocket science" means the toughest of challenges.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: gazerjim]
      #3170362 - 06/18/09 07:47 PM

So, what causes a rocket engine to "stutter"-no,back up.. I'm assuming "stutter" is a interruption of the laminar flow of exhaust gas in the bell. Is that right?

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Pedestal]
      #3170418 - 06/18/09 08:25 PM

Quote:

So, what causes a rocket engine to "stutter"-no,back up.. I'm assuming "stutter" is a interruption of the laminar flow of exhaust gas in the bell. Is that right?




I haven't heard that term before, but the event you describe sounds like flame separation. If the back pressure of the exhaust is too high, then under certain conditions the flame will separate from the wall of the nozzle. When this happens it sets up a destructive vibration. In SSME this can happen during test if we throttle much less than 90% of rated thrust. For our sea level tests we always keep the throttle at 104% (or higher in some cases).

Shuttle throttles down in the area of "max Q," or maximum aerodynamic pressure, during ascent. By that time the atmospheric pressure is low enough to permit it.

To test the engines at sea level we use something called a "diffuser." It's a long tube we fire the engine into that ends up simulating a higher altitude (lower pressure). We can throttle down to 65% or so using it. There's one for SSME laying on its side next to the test control center. I'll take a photo of it on Monday and post it here.

RS-68 is tested without the nozzle. It's replaced with a gizmo they call a "witness ring." Looks like a very short nozzle. They can run it over a wide range of throttle settings, although the engine controller only supports two settings. A typical qualifying run starts at full thrust, throttles down to just over half then back up.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Pedestal]
      #3170433 - 06/18/09 08:31 PM

Here's a link to a nice description of the F1 engine.

http://www.apolloexplorer.co.uk/pdf/saturnv/F-1%20Engine.pdf

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: pcad]
      #3170590 - 06/18/09 10:22 PM

Interesting link. Some thoughts came to mind while reading. So, you got 1.5 million pounds of thrust riding on a plastic bearing..... So, you got this motor with 1.5 million pounds of thrust pointing one direction, and you want to change direction. Quickly.....
Things that make you go hummm.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: molniyabeer]
      #3217925 - 07/14/09 04:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Sometimes things break or come off during acoustic or vibration testing. Then the structural or material guys have to go fix the problem.




In that vein, I'll share this story I heard many years ago from an old aerospace engineer. Seems back in the day before all the super computers to do modeling of launch loads, the engineers needed to figure out how beefy to make the supporting structure of a particular satellite. They knew roughly what sort of loads it could expect upon launch so they way over built the thing and put it on the shaker table. It didn't break so they got out the grinders and thinned it down a tad. Shook it again and it still didn't break. So they shaved some more. This went on until it broke. Then they backed up a couple itterations and figured that was a pretty good balance between strength and weight. Practical engineering at it's best!




In the electronic biz they call that "Munzing". In the early 50's a TV shop owner called "Madman" Munz asked an EE to design a set to sell at a bargain price. The engineer designed one using the normal components. Munz came in with wire cutters and started snipping out parts until the set didn't work. They soldered the part back in and that was the final (minimum cost) design.

Great topic. Good info about rockets.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3217995 - 07/14/09 05:10 PM

Rockets that used hypergolic fuels are reliable in that they do not have a separate ignition system that can fail. Allow the propellants to enter the combustion chamber and you have ignition. However, if a leak occurs anywhere in the system, it will cause an explosion that probably would be catastrophic. Two Titan II ICBM's blew up in their silos this way, and so did the Mars Observer probe when it was entering Mars orbit. The ICBM's exploded because leaks occurred in the fuel tanks, one being caused by a wrench socket being dropped and hitting the fuel tank, puncturing it. The fuel immediately started a fire forcing the silo personnel to flee. Both explosions turned the silos into massive craters in the ground and catapulted a 9 megaton nuclear warhead hundreds of feet into the air. Mars Observer was destroyed or crippled by a faulty valve that allows the propellants to mix and ignite within the fuel lines of the spacecraft. It appears that a slow leak filled up the system during the cruise to Mars. When the tanks were pressurized and the fuel lines were filled with propellants in preparation for entering Martian orbit, the spacecraft either exploded or was sent careening out of control when the fuel system ruptured. Either way, it was never heard from again. The fuels can be stored indefinitely in the tanks but the extreme corrosiveness and toxicity of the fuels are a serious threat to the lives of launch crews. One whiff of nitrogen tetroxide and your lungs will be attacked by nitric acid on contact. That is why they use heavy duty suits when fueling satellites and other spacecraft that use propellants such as nitrogen tetroxide and unsymmetrical di-methyl hydrazine. They are the way to go for a satellite or spaceprobe's propulsion system and they can be very reliable. After all, many rockets that use these sorts of fuels only have a pair of valves as moving parts and use a bottle of high pressure helium or nitrogen to force the propellants to the engine. That's as simple as a liquid fuel rocket can get.

Taras

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imjeffp
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: kc6zut]
      #3217996 - 07/14/09 05:11 PM

See the first strip here.

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Achernar]
      #3220295 - 07/15/09 09:18 PM

MO was lost due to a firing sequence issue with a set of primary and backup pyro values in the fuel system. Landsat 6 and Telstar 402 suffered the same fate.

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David Knisely
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: JAT Observatory]
      #3220373 - 07/15/09 09:56 PM

Quote:

MO was lost due to a firing sequence issue with a set of primary and backup pyro values in the fuel system. Landsat 6 and Telstar 402 suffered the same fate.




Actually, the exact cause of the loss of Mars Observer was never determined because no data was received from the spacecraft during the orbital insertion attempt (the transmitter had been turned off in a planned 14 minute powered-down sequence). There were several possible failure scenarios ranging from a propulsion system failure (the most likely, with three separate sub-scenarios as possibilities), an electrical power loss due to a massive short in the power sub-system, a loss of function that prevented both the spacecraft's main and backup computers from controlling the spacecraft, and finally, a loss of both the main and backup transmitters due to failure of an electronic part. However, until some future space mission finds what is left of Mars Observer, we will never really know exactly what went wrong. Clear skies to you.

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JAT Observatory
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: David Knisely]
      #3222235 - 07/16/09 08:01 PM

Quote:

until some future space mission finds what is left of Mars Observer, we will never really know exactly what went wrong. Clear skies to you.




If you say so.

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ShadowalkerModerator
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3230140 - 07/21/09 11:11 AM

The last SSME test for the last SSME flight is to be conducted at Stennis Space Center on July 29. This will be a typical 550 second "green run" that will qualify the engine for flight. The test stand is to stand down after that and be re-configured to test the J2X engine assuming the Ares project continues.

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Lee Jay
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: groz]
      #3231487 - 07/21/09 11:14 PM

Quote:

The nozzle itself is essentially a venturi. A venturi system has a property that the rockets capitalize on.




For anyone wanting to look it up, it's called a De Laval Nozzle.

Quote:

That makes a HUGE difference in the design of a nozzle to maximize benefit from a given quantity of fuel, and, is the real reason rockets are staged, with one or two stages built for the lift with atmospheric back pressure, and, later stages optimized for zero back pressure in a vaccuum.




Well, that's only sort of true. It's true that upper stages have vac-optimized nozzles, but the *main* reason rockets are staged is to get rid of the dry mass of the tanks (and to a lesser extent, the powerful liftoff engines) as fuel is consumed.

Quote:

I've always wondered about the ssme nozzles, they have a shape that suggests they are optimized for at least _some_ back pressure, but, I've never found any reference to state just how much ? Are they operating optimally at the initial lift in the lower atmosphere, or, are they operating optimally during the high atmosphere portion of the flight ?




The SSMEs are mostly vac optimized since they spend most of their time during ascent in a vacuum.


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Starhawk
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Lee Jay]
      #3468865 - 11/25/09 10:45 PM

One thing missing here is there are rockets with variable nozzles. They have a short nozzle for low altitude and an extended skirt which slides into place at high altitude to get better efficiency. It sounds Rube Goldbergish, but it has flown on later RL10 engine variants.

-Rich

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ShadowalkerModerator
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Starhawk]
      #3469559 - 11/26/09 11:20 AM

Quote:

One thing missing here is there are rockets with variable nozzles. They have a short nozzle for low altitude and an extended skirt which slides into place at high altitude to get better efficiency. It sounds Rube Goldbergish, but it has flown on later RL10 engine variants.

-Rich




That's true. I think the most promising nozzle technolgy is the Linear Aerospike. The photo in this Wikipedia article is the one we tested in the 1990s for the X-33 program. I was part of that test project. The engine cinsisted of an old J2 powerhead (Gas Generator and turbo pumps) and a new combustion chamber. The advantage is that there are no Rube Goldberg parts. The engine performed as expected. A shame the X33 was cancelled.

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Tom Nicolaides
http://www.first-light.org

One test result is worth one thousand expert opinions.
— Wernher von Braun


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ShadowalkerModerator
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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3685450 - 03/16/10 06:46 PM

Remember the early days of American rocketry? Lots of movies of rockets going up a few feet and then exploding? Most of those failures were due to "combustion instability."

When an engine burns fuel in the combusition chamber, it generates a pressure which shoots the mass out of the nozzle, causing thrust. This pressure, called "chamber pressure," resists the insertion of more fuel and oxidizer into the chamber. As such, the fuel/oxidizer must be forced in. This is usually done with pumps. Sometimes the fuel/oxidizer thanks are pressurized to drive the propellants in.

Let's say the chamber is operating at 950 PSI. Nominal design pressure is 1000 PSI. The pumps, being designed to maintain 1000PSI pump more propellants. Since more propellant is burning, the temperature and pressure goes up (say to 1050 PSI), and the flow slows down. This causes the combustion to diminish, reducing the pressure. When the excursions get larger with each oscillation, instability happens. Eventually the chamber ruptures, or back pressure destroys the pumps. This was a common problem in early rocket engines and resulted in much smoke and fire.

Better pumps, variable position valves and electronic controllers eventually solved that problem.

Another appraoch was the "Pentil" injector. Instead of injecting propellant at the top of the chamber, the injectors protruded into the chamber. This was a mechanial method to dampen the oscillations. The cost was about 10% less efficiency.

The Merlin engines used by the Falcon 9 and developed by SpaceX are of that design.

--------------------
Tom Nicolaides
http://www.first-light.org

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Re: Rocket Engines 101 new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #3693503 - 03/20/10 11:31 AM

This is one fascinating and informative thread!

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Edited by randtek (03/21/10 09:51 AM)


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