Starstuffed
super member
Reged: 10/15/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Northwest United States
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The approximately 100 years since the appearance of airplanes have seen
inhabitants of this planet launch themselves into space, orbit the earth,
and walk on the moon.
Now, we are being told, it is time to establish a permanent presence on the
moon to aid in the objective of landing humans on Mars around the year 2030.
What is the rush?
The few vehicular robots which have been fortunate enough to hit the bulls
eye exhibit an ability to adequately photograph the surface on which they
can more or less freely roam. These rovers have now evolved to a point
where water and evidence of life, either present or past, can be
experimentally detected. It has not come cheaply but at a far less
expensive price and safer program than manned exploration could be
performed. Future robotics will surely be even more capable.
If money for the space program were limitless and human life were cheap then
perhaps the hurry could be more understood.
Is there a scientific basis at this early stage in the history of being able
to lift our feet off this planet for extended periods to plant them on the
surface of Mars? Could it simply be a national prestige thing under the
guise of necessary science? Is it just another mountain to climb simply
because it's there? Is it political ploy?
I don't get it.
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Tom L
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29880
Loc: Sunny Oregon
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It's an ego thing. I personally think that we have the means using robots but the thought of going to MARS is exciting...I wonder if anyone really realizes that we are there right this minute!
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Tom 
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 40398
Loc: Phx, AZ
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If the law of supply and demand holds, people are pretty cheap right now. Even disposable if you read the news. Not too sure what to make of that!
There is the robot vs. people crowd when it comes to exploring. Today, I'm the robots side. Tomorrow???
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Ron
NS11GPS
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matt
Vendor (Scopemania)
Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10037
Loc: Chaville, France
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That was our coffee conversation yeterday here (I'm NASA's unofficial ambassador here). There is less drive than in the Moon Race to put a guy over there, and at the same time robots are becoming more and more sophisticated.
I agree with Starstuffed: for a fraction of the price of a manned mission, we cuold launch a whole constellation of robots, which at the end would bring far more science back. So we could investigate a wider area on Mars, and also be more reactive. Most people argue that humans can react better than robots to unexpected situations. Robots can't react to the unexpected - they're built to respond to what's expected, or it would not be that unexpected (!).
Let's say a manned Mars mission takes 20 years to develop and launch. An unmanned mission takes 5 years. So we could send a first robot on mars. Year 5: the robots finds on Mars something intriguing it can't work on (like a multi-dimensional shopping mall map). Year 6: Nasa starts working on a Mall-map reading robot. Year 10: the robot is on Mars to read the map. Like a man, he's not going to ask anyone for directions, but he's there 10 years ahead of tha man.
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Matt
CI700 mount with various scopes on top.
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 40398
Loc: Phx, AZ
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I think it's bit easier to get more nations involved using robots too. You don't have to worry about whose astronaut gets to go, who's in charge, language etc.
In any event, if we can show that we can send a robot out, land, grab some rock and soil samples (keeping in mind real people are looking over its' shoulder making decisions) and then come back we can say two things.
1) We can send people safely. The technology is now proven.
2) Because of previous missions we now know where to or NOT to send the manned mission. We may even learn that a manned mission is not required.
You can also take some risks with a robot you dare not with a manned mission. As we build things smaller and cheaper we'll be able to send smaller cheaper robots in greater numbers (perhaps a cluster robot, one mission but twenty little Beagles you send everywhere) so if you lose a few it's not that big a deal, the rewards are worth the risks.
Maybe each nation would build its' own Beagle as its' contribution.
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Ron
NS11GPS
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16" dob
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Inkswitch
super member
Reged: 11/09/03
Posts: 156
Loc: columbus OH USA
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Robot missions can do more science cheaper than people. I think we can all agree with this statement. However I would like to quote R. Heinelin (<--spelling?) "The earth is to fragile a basket for mankind to keep all his eggs in."
Building a permanent presence on the moon will help spread us out so thermonuclear meltdown or global warming or the diminishing ozone layer or asteriods the size of texas do not take us all out.
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-Lawen
12.5" Meade Starfinder dob.
6" Orion dob.
8X56 Orion mini-giant
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30395
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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What it comes down to is that many people don't want or need a practical motive for being out there, in the flesh. They just want to go. Much as I hate to admit it, Bush had a point the other day when he said we need both robots and people to make space exploration reach its fullest potential.
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them. - Galileo Galilei
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 40398
Loc: Phx, AZ
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I'm afraid it's the only basket we got. Where else are we going to go? The solar system is about our limit with current rockets. I don't think we'll ever have faster than light technology (I would be very happy to be proven wrong on that one). Even Arizona looks pretty good compared to Mars or Venus.
Unless you want to build a ring world; but I don't think we have enough mass to do that. Things come and go and someday humans will be gone to. There is really nothing wrong with that concept (as long as it happens way in the future  ).
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Ron
NS11GPS
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16" dob
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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/22/03
Posts: 1520
Loc: Wisconsin
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Ah, any one remember the old L5 plan, best one made up, shelved
http://lifesci3.arc.nasa.gov/SpaceSettlement/
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"Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here"
Dual mount/ambient temperature Hominid Widefield Photon Collectors®
Pleistocene™ ˝ watt Wetware Integration Unit.
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/22/03
Posts: 1520
Loc: Wisconsin
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Here is a link directly to the NASA/Ames 1975 design study
jay
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"Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here"
Dual mount/ambient temperature Hominid Widefield Photon Collectors®
Pleistocene™ ˝ watt Wetware Integration Unit.
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/22/03
Posts: 1520
Loc: Wisconsin
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oooops
http://lifesci3.arc.nasa.gov/SpaceSettlement/75SummerStudy/Design.html
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"Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here"
Dual mount/ambient temperature Hominid Widefield Photon Collectors®
Pleistocene™ ˝ watt Wetware Integration Unit.
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 40398
Loc: Phx, AZ
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What advantage would it have over the moon?
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
15X70 Obies
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Peter Argenziano
Watcher of the Skies
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 2824
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Although Mars Global Surveyor (launched in '96) completed its primary mission in '01 - imaging the effects of windstorms and landslides to indicate 'recent' flows of liquid water - it is now in an extended mission, lending assistance to Odyssey.
Odyssey was launched in '01 to map mineralogy, elemental abundances and radiation hazards of the surface of the red planet. It entered a polar orbit two years ago and began scientific observations.
The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is in development for a proposed '05 launch. It will employ high-resolution imaging (on the order of 30 cm per picture element) to bridge the gap between surface observations and measurements from orbit.
Mars Scout (Phoenix) is approved for launch in '07. It will land in '08 and dig a trench in the North Polar region (65-75° N) to analyze the ice-rich soil. It will utilize previously developed, but yet unused, science instruments from the '98 Mars Surveyor Program and the unfinished '01 Mars Lander Program.
Other missions (planned and/or operational) within the Solar System include: Genesis, Cassini, Stardust, Dawn, Rosetta, MER, Deep Impact, MESSENGER and New Horizons. I believe that any manned missions to Mars are still decades away.
Peter
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Peter
14.5" Starmaster
I hail from the explosive jetsam of a multitude of high-mass stars that died more than 5 billion years ago.
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trever
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/18/03
Posts: 2699
Loc: North Alabama
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If someone gave you the choice to go to Mars or the Moon, Would anyone here do it? I mean if they trained you thoroughly, launched you to the Moon or Mars in a highly tested but not 100% reliable vehicle, land and let you walk on the surface and establish a colony..would anyone here risk their lives to actually get a chance to do this?... I know I would. And there are many in this country that would agree. It is just human nature to want to be there. Robots will not be as sophisticated as the human brain for many decades or centuries to come. You can watch the travel channel all of your life but until you have actually been there, you still will only have 1/100th of the picture.
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Trever
Coronado PST Solar Telescope
Vixen A80MF 80mm Refractor with Porta Mount
Orange Celestron 8 inch SCT on AS-GT mount
Zhumell 20x80 Astronomical Binoculars
Orion Paragon HD-F2 Tripod
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Yes
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jmoore
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 1959
Loc: Beaufort, NC
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Quote:
Now, we are being told, it is time to establish a permanent presence on the
moon to aid in the objective of landing humans on Mars around the year 2030.
What is the rush?
G.W. has to announce SOMETHING popular before November.
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Hardin 12"
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 40398
Loc: Phx, AZ
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Nope! When I was younger I would have in a heart beat. But you can't canoe in the moon, nor ski - and Hawaii is further away. Girl watching is not that great either.
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
15X70 Obies
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Bill Grass
Prince Regent
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 11652
Loc: Denham Springs, LA
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Quote:
Girl watching is not that great either.
Huh? I enjoy that even more than star-watching!
(Oops...my wife is in here now. I must behave.)
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 40398
Loc: Phx, AZ
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Better watch her then!
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
15X70 Obies
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trever
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/18/03
Posts: 2699
Loc: North Alabama
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Good use for an ED 80 if I say so myself..:)
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Trever
Coronado PST Solar Telescope
Vixen A80MF 80mm Refractor with Porta Mount
Orange Celestron 8 inch SCT on AS-GT mount
Zhumell 20x80 Astronomical Binoculars
Orion Paragon HD-F2 Tripod
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Bill Grass
Prince Regent
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 11652
Loc: Denham Springs, LA
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Trever & Ron, I agree with both of you! 
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matt
Vendor (Scopemania)
Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10037
Loc: Chaville, France
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Good news my wife does not know I'm moderating THIS!
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Matt
CI700 mount with various scopes on top.
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 40398
Loc: Phx, AZ
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She doesn't believe you can be moderate???
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
15X70 Obies
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matt
Vendor (Scopemania)
Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10037
Loc: Chaville, France
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Matt
CI700 mount with various scopes on top.
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Tom L
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29880
Loc: Sunny Oregon
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That deserves a double
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Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount
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777Guy
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 577
Loc: 48'29N 122'37W
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Matt,
The big problem as I see it is that there is no national(U.S) imperative that we send humans to the Moon or Mars at the present time. JFK got support because he turned space exploration into a political race. America had to beat the Russians to the Moon no matter how much it cost. It was a tremendous technological accomplishment. However, if science is the goal, why send humans when robotics can do the mission, Viking proved that 0ver 25 years ago. It is very curious why after 25 years, Mars has now become a new science imperative. And to get to Mars it makes sense to establish a base on the Moon. It is almost as if NASA has gone back in the archives and rediscovered some old dusty book with plans for establishing a Moon base.
I have worked for NASA through contractors on both manned and unmanned missions, and my opinion is that the NASA of today has little in common with the NASA that sent astronauts to the Moon and Viking too Mars. They are a bunch of technocrats with no vision and no idea what direction they should be moving. ISS in my opinion is a giant money pit with no real purpose. The shuttle is almost an antique and should have been grounded in 1986. What purpose does it serve too endlessly orbit the earth to collect data on human response to long exposure to microgravity. They already have that data from MIR. I am on the side to develop AI and robotic technology and send probes out into the solar system. If they find something interesting like life on Titan or Mars, then we can send humans to investigate further. Otherwise they can use the money too develop more advanced propulsion systems that can take us out of the solar system and beyond.
I will get off my soapbox now and return you to your regular TV program that is currently in progress.
By the way, I will be in Paris the 21st and 24th.
Choos,
Jim
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Peter Argenziano
Watcher of the Skies
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 2824
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Quote:
and my opinion is that the NASA of today has little in common with the NASA that sent astronauts to the Moon and Viking too Mars. They are a bunch of technocrats with no vision and no idea what direction they should be moving. ISS in my opinion is a giant money pit with no real purpose.
Jim,
I'd have to disagree. Projects such as Genesis, MGS, Cassini, Stardust, Odyssey, Dawn, Phoenix, Rosetta, MER, Deep Impact, MESSENGER, New Horizons and Reconnaissance are hardly what I would classify as without direction or vision.
All of these projects are either currently operational or approved.
Peter
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Peter
14.5" Starmaster
I hail from the explosive jetsam of a multitude of high-mass stars that died more than 5 billion years ago.
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30395
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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I'm with Peter on that point: what NASA lacks is a big, splashy, highly visible project with a lot of human drama, such as Apollo. This is not the same as saying they lack direction. That having been said, if we are to effectively explore space, and perhaps one day use the resources that surely exist there, we need the sort of public support NASA currently lacks. And well-defined goals involving manned missions could give us that.
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them. - Galileo Galilei
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 40398
Loc: Phx, AZ
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OK, how to agree with both camps. NASA does have some little communities that are doing fairly well inspite of big NASA. Yet NASA -even if it thinks it has a vision - has not articualated it to us, the public. Certainly not in a way to make us care about a bunch of little experiments going hither and yon.
It does need some kind of very long range goals and backing by the public and congress and any abministration that comes along. It's very hard to have a long range goal when your purse strings may be cut at any time. The scale of the universe, the problems we face in science demand long term commitments so NASA needs long term backing so it can have confidence in hiring and spending for the long term.
The two landers are only funded for 90 days each. Typically the hardware they send up far outlasts funding to support the hardware, collect the data - then do something with the data. If NASA can't afford to go beyond the 90 days then they should consider bidding out surviving time to another country or a university while useful data is being collected.
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
15X70 Obies
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30395
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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