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lightfever
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 09/27/04

Loc: Macomb Michigan
Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch
      #4853950 - 10/10/11 01:16 PM

Title says it all, check it out here.

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Mary B
Vendor - Echo Astronomy and Electronics
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Reged: 05/21/10

Loc: Minnesota
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: lightfever]
      #4854475 - 10/10/11 06:32 PM

Sweet!

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Alex_M
member


Reged: 10/03/11

Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Mary B]
      #4854483 - 10/10/11 06:38 PM

Awesome!

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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Alex_M]
      #4854608 - 10/10/11 07:50 PM

another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvDqoxMUroA&NR=1

-drl


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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist
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Reged: 11/23/04

Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: deSitter]
      #4854728 - 10/10/11 08:53 PM

I love rockets...

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star drop
contra contrail
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Reged: 02/02/08

Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #4854824 - 10/10/11 09:50 PM

That is so cool!

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jchaller
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 05/29/08

Loc: Tenino, WA.
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: star drop]
      #4855093 - 10/11/11 01:47 AM Attachment (23 downloads)

Gotta love rockets.

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lightfever
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 09/27/04

Loc: Macomb Michigan
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: jchaller]
      #4855442 - 10/11/11 10:06 AM

It would be interesting to know what that launch cost and if they made the solid motor themselves.

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KWB
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Loc: Westminster,Co Elev.5400 feet
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: lightfever]
      #4855634 - 10/11/11 12:09 PM

You beat me to the punch,Mark.

I'd love to know what the total tab was for the design, materials and assembly,plus the launch and what the exact composition of the propellent that was used. My guess is it wasn't cheap.

Incredible.


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EJN
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/01/05

Loc: 53 miles west of Venus
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: KWB]
      #4855766 - 10/11/11 01:26 PM

Propellant is Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant (APCP)
in a rubber binder with 8% metal powder using a Fin-O-Cyl
grain configuration.

There is a website with construction details here.


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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: EJN]
      #4856144 - 10/11/11 04:51 PM

I'm amazed how smooth the footage suggests the launch was, with no evidence of vibration or shuddering. Was it because the camera was that well isolated, or was the rocket really that steady?

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lightfever
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 09/27/04

Loc: Macomb Michigan
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: ColoHank]
      #4856172 - 10/11/11 05:05 PM

Do those cameras have image stabilization?

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Shadowalker
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Reged: 11/23/04

Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: lightfever]
      #4856380 - 10/11/11 07:27 PM

Don't know about the camera, but I do know all rockets vibrate - a lot. Now that you mention it, Hank, I'm surprised at the stability of the image. The ascent video on shuttle, Atlas 5 and Delta 4 are similarly stable. I'm guessing they do use image stabilization. Must mean consumer grade video has pretty sophisticated stuff in order for this rocket to have such good video.

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groz
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #4856396 - 10/11/11 07:35 PM

Quote:

Don't know about the camera, but I do know all rockets vibrate - a lot.





I know that a liquid fueled rocket, with all the pumps and gizmos that accompany liquid fuel, will have a lot of vibration. It's especially noticeable when thrust/weight ratios are just slightly over 1, so acceleration is rather slow in the early state of liftoff. But, will an all solid fuel system, with no moving parts, and a thrust/weight ratio that start at 12.5, rapidly increases to 22 only 8 seconds later, have that much vibration?

Probably not......


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David Knisely
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Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: lightfever]
      #4856441 - 10/11/11 07:59 PM

This was much better than the National Geographic Channel program "HOW HARD CAN IT BE? when they tried their hand at a "rocket to reach the edge of space" (it didn't). It was sad to see one of these "engineers" on that program try to light a clustered model rocket using black powder!

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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: groz]
      #4856602 - 10/11/11 09:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Don't know about the camera, but I do know all rockets vibrate - a lot.





I know that a liquid fueled rocket, with all the pumps and gizmos that accompany liquid fuel, will have a lot of vibration. It's especially noticeable when thrust/weight ratios are just slightly over 1, so acceleration is rather slow in the early state of liftoff. But, will an all solid fuel system, with no moving parts, and a thrust/weight ratio that start at 12.5, rapidly increases to 22 only 8 seconds later, have that much vibration?

Probably not......




I'm pretty sure that the combustion process in a solid fuel motor provides all kinds of vibration sources. I don't think the fuel mixture and internal packing can possibly be homogeneous enough to prevent a tremendous amount of chaos in the combustion chamber.


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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist
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Reged: 11/23/04

Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: llanitedave]
      #4856640 - 10/11/11 09:53 PM

Actually, solids vibrate a lot more than liquids. It's not the pipes, valves and fluid flow, it's the combustion rate. In a solid there is a huge area burning at any one time. There are local areas that burn faster than others. This produces pressures that are non-homogeneous, resulting in forces that are varying. All of which contributes to uneven acceleration and vibration.

Liquid fueled rockets have a much more even burn rate.

I'm not saying liquids are better. Just that solids provide a more interesting ride


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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #4856650 - 10/11/11 09:57 PM

There was one bug in his launch - something MELTED from friction and partially covered the camera lens!

You know you've got a fast rocket when the FRONT end melts!

-drl


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lightfever
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 09/27/04

Loc: Macomb Michigan
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: deSitter]
      #4856662 - 10/11/11 10:02 PM

Quote:

There was one bug in his launch - something MELTED from friction and partially covered the camera lens!

You know you've got a fast rocket when the FRONT end melts!

-drl




Reading the website it appears it was a deflector that was planned on being machined from aluminum but was made from plastic because of time constraints.

Yeah, your rocket is really moving when you can melt things.


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Achernar
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Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: groz]
      #4856700 - 10/11/11 10:19 PM

Not necessarily, a pressure fed rocket would have no pumps at all, just two propellant tanks, a pressure bottle or bottles charged with helium, nitrogen or some other gas, a valve and regulator for the pressure bottles, two valves and the engine itself. Liquid fueled rockets don't vibrate nearly as much as solid fueled rockets do, even the ones that burn some of the fuel in turbines to drive super powerful turbopumps vibrate far less than a solid fueled rocket. They force the propellants into the engines while the turbines that drive them vent their exhaust through the engines at the same time for maximum thrust. This was how the main engines of the Space Shuttle orbiter functioned, and once the SRB's were cut loose the ride smoothed out dramatically for the astronauts in spite of the fact each turbo pump spun much faster than a jet engine at full thrust.

Taras


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KWB
Postmaster
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Reged: 09/30/06

Loc: Westminster,Co Elev.5400 feet
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Achernar]
      #4856827 - 10/11/11 11:42 PM

Liquid fueled rockets can be shut down,maybe not on the "shoestring budget" of this design but the solid fuel rascals can't AFAIK. I'm still stunned this was the propulsion system chosen,and yes I'd vote for a very sophisticated image stabilization system used,and maybe not so-consumer grade.

Maybe I didn't look hard enough but I only saw 150 pounds of propellent used,but not the specific type.


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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: KWB]
      #4856835 - 10/11/11 11:49 PM

Also amazing is that the rocket, going as fast as it was, did not spin about its axis at power-drill speeds. This testifies to extremely accurate machining of the chamber and the guidance fins.

-drl


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KWB
Postmaster
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Reged: 09/30/06

Loc: Westminster,Co Elev.5400 feet
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: deSitter]
      #4856892 - 10/12/11 12:55 AM

Quote:

Also amazing is that the rocket, going as fast as it was, did not spin about its axis at power-drill speeds. This testifies to extremely accurate machining of the chamber and the guidance fins.

-drl



And in my mind testifies to the this overall project as being one in having a very good overall master plan-as in funding and in creative genius.


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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist
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Reged: 11/23/04

Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: KWB]
      #4857223 - 10/12/11 09:42 AM

Quote:

Liquid fueled rockets can be shut down,maybe not on the "shoestring budget" of this design but the solid fuel rascals can't AFAIK. I'm still stunned this was the propulsion system chosen,and yes I'd vote for a very sophisticated image stabilization system used,and maybe not so-consumer grade.

Maybe I didn't look hard enough but I only saw 150 pounds of propellent used,but not the specific type.




Kenny, there is another type of rocket motor that has much of the simplicity of solids, but the control of liquids. The Hybrid Rocket Motor.

They use a solid core of fuel, usually butyl rubber and pumped or pressure fed oxidizer at the front end. It can be throttled and shut down by controlling the oxidizer valve. Also, the solid fuel isn't nearly as dangerous as the Ammomium perchlorate/Powdered aluminum mix in true solids.

Here is a video of a 10,000 lb thrust hybrid we tested at Stennis Space Center some years back. Later, we tested a 250,000 lb thrust motor built by Lockheed.

Hybrids were all the rage for a while, but nobody seems to have picked up on them for an operational rocket.


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Scott Horstman
Vendor - Backyard Observatories
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Loc: Here, There and Everywhere
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: KWB]
      #4857224 - 10/12/11 09:42 AM

Awesome video, thanks for posting. I hope they qualify for the 5k. They certainly deserve it.

Reminded me of the Top Gear space shuttle launch, which had a slightly different outcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da3bk-b6yn4&feature=related


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
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Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Scott Horstman]
      #4857492 - 10/12/11 12:17 PM

Just read the page. The hybrid rockets do seem pretty cool. From looking at the simplified diagrams I seem to see the possibility of some efficiency losses if part of the oxidizer passes through the combustion chamber without ever making contact with the fuel. I'm sure there are ways of ensuring fairly complete contact, though.

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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist
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Reged: 11/23/04

Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: llanitedave]
      #4857518 - 10/12/11 12:34 PM

One of the things they were testing for is combustion efficiency. They tested various sorts of injectors.

Potential efficiency is similar to Gas Generator cycle hydrocarbon engines. All of the ones I've seen are steel cases, which adds significant weight. Aluminum is out because at those temperatures, Aluminum will burn.


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shawnhar
Postmaster
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Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #4857684 - 10/12/11 02:03 PM

What I found much more interesting was the link Carmack uses as an example of documentation.

http://www.rrs.org/main.1.0/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=80&Itemid=93

8 Years of work for an 11 second flight right into the ground at Mach 0.6!


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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist
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Reged: 11/23/04

Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: shawnhar]
      #4858416 - 10/12/11 10:23 PM

@shawnhar - yeah, that had to be discouraging.

I admit I'm not up on the state of the art in amateur rocketry. Is anyone using guidance? Vectored nozzles? Roll control? I sure would like to see amateur solutions to those things!


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KWB
Postmaster
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Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #4858501 - 10/12/11 11:19 PM

Tom

2 of those abilities you stated seemed to be a bit on display in this video as I watched it.

Once again,any guess what do you think this little fun filled experiment might have really cost?


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nytecam
Postmaster


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Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: KWB]
      #4858722 - 10/13/11 05:00 AM

That was a fun ride - good stuff

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FlorinAndrei
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/28/10

Loc: California
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: EJN]
      #4861836 - 10/15/11 03:35 AM

Quote:

Propellant is Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant (APCP)
in a rubber binder with 8% metal powder using a Fin-O-Cyl
grain configuration.




The first model rocket I made back in school (much much smaller than this one) used the perchlorate / aluminum mix for fuel. It burns with a beautiful brilliant white flame. There's almost no residue left.

Also, it's so hot it roasted the bottom of the rocket's tube. The motor itself (a shotgun shell) was destroyed.


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Ghost7
member


Reged: 10/14/11

Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Achernar]
      #4863651 - 10/16/11 06:15 AM

Great. It's always cool to see amateurs achieving something like this. How much can it cost to this?

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Matthew Ota
Hmmm


Reged: 04/30/05

Loc: Los Angeles, California
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Ghost7]
      #4871861 - 10/20/11 11:06 PM

I dabbled in amateur rocketry from 1981 to 1984. My motors were purchased from a vendor and used ammonium perchlorate in a hydroxyl terminated polybutadene binder (HTPB).

What got me out of continuing it was the political infighting from the rocketry associations and the sheer cost of building and flying the things.

Amateur astronomy is easier on the pocketbook, once you have your equipment in place.

Edited by Matthew Ota (10/20/11 11:06 PM)


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jkaiser
member


Reged: 01/07/13

Loc: Wood River Junction, Rhode Isl...
Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: Matthew Ota]
      #5651668 - 01/30/13 06:43 AM

Rocketry associations actually drove the fun out of the hobby, I still design and build my rockets periodically, but don't have the so called certifications. In fact where I live there is nobody around to certfy you, you would have to travel to the closest rocketry club, I dont have time for that and I been building and launching model and high powered rockets for over 30 years.

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Awesome Amateur Rocket Launch new [Re: jkaiser]
      #5655508 - 02/01/13 02:41 AM

I don't feel that there is all the vibration feared, requiring image stabilization. The great speed through the air will either induce more vibration than from the motor, or nicely steady out the ride (the likely scenario, methinks.) A clue pointing to the lack of stabilization is provided by the 'stuff' appearing in the window, which is never differentially shifting about in response to an image stabilization scheme.

My first thought regarding the 'stuff' appearing in the window was that it's condensation, not melted material.


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