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Joad
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Reged: 03/22/05

Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5343326 - 07/30/12 12:25 PM

I'm responding to Florin. And what credentials do you have to determine what is "nonsense" and what isn't? Declaring something to be "nonsense" is usually a way of refusing to create a rational argument. Privileging your own position is not an argument.

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simpleisbetter
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Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: Joad]
      #5343343 - 07/30/12 12:33 PM

I know you were replying to Florin, but you stated it in open forum context for all the see and hear. Therefore since you stated it publicly I was asking, rightfully, how that your particular personal view applies in this discussion that everyone is reading. How does that view apply to the Chinese Space program?

If you want a private discussion with Florin, then please PM him offline.

Edited by simpleisbetter (07/30/12 12:42 PM)


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Shadowalker
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Reged: 11/23/04

Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5343352 - 07/30/12 12:36 PM



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Joad
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Reged: 03/22/05

Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5343357 - 07/30/12 12:42 PM

All views are questionable. So long as I remain politely within the rules here on CN, it is not your place to censor me. Florin brought up Columbus in this thread. What has that to do with the Chinese? I pointed out that the Columbus analogy had some problems. You don't like my view. You like Florin's. I am going to lose very little sleep over that.

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simpleisbetter
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Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: Joad]
      #5343377 - 07/30/12 12:54 PM

It's not my intent to censor you Joad, only the moderators have that tool. Nor do I find Florin's views anymore correct, I certainly don't he's wrong. But I found the views and statement in your post rather offensive. Please take it as nothing more than the question I asked; how does this apply to the Chinese Space program this thread is about?

And I don't expect you or anyone to lose sleep over anything I say, I have no pride in myself in that regard.

Edited by simpleisbetter (07/30/12 01:00 PM)


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Joad
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Reged: 03/22/05

Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5343396 - 07/30/12 01:03 PM

And I find the analogy between space colonization and Columbus offensive. Guess what, we're even.

And if you are offended by anyone expressing sympathy to those who have suffered unspeakable suffering in history, you might want to consider why.


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simpleisbetter
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Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: Joad]
      #5343418 - 07/30/12 01:17 PM

You still haven't answered the question.

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Joad
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Reged: 03/22/05

Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5343438 - 07/30/12 01:32 PM

I can answer the question, and will, but you seem to think that I am under an obligation to answer your questions, and I assure you that I am not. But my answer will be rather involved, so you'd best be prepared to read it all carefully and not nit pick individual sentences.

If you haven't noticed, every time (yes, every time) discussion of human space exploration comes up in this forum, the discussion veers away from the pure science of the matter (years ago, Groz clearly explained that a manned mission to Mars is impossible using available technologies, but the discussion keeps coming up) to socio-political disagreements. I was a moderator for some six years, and I know first-hand the challenge this presents to the moderators of this forum. They choose to let us veer off. That's fine.

So we veer off, every time. In two threads going on simultaneously right now a disagreement is going on with respect to manned space flight. Some people just don't understand why some of us aren't enthusiastic about manned space flight. Those of us who aren't have different reasons for it, and I cannot (and do not) speak for anyone else.

What bothers me is the analogy, brought up not by me but by others, drawn between the European Age of Exploration and space exploration, as well as the very non-scientific insistence that "man must explore space." Such judgments, which appear every time, have nothing to do with science. They are in this thread. The moderators could delete them if they liked, because they have nothing to do with science (there is nothing, I repeat nothing, scientific about a belief that "man must explore": that is a value judgment). (Maybe I'd better explain this: the fact that homo sapiens sapiens has been an exploring species is not at all commensurate with the judgment that homo sapiens sapiens ought to be an exploring species. "Ought" is a value judgment and it does not derive logically from "is.")

So, when I respond to value judgments, that's all I am doing. The connection to Chinese space flight lies in the fact that someone else made the connection, and I am responding to it.


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Rick Woods
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Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5343446 - 07/30/12 01:35 PM

Jeez, I thought Hank and I were getting testy in the "Robotoic or Manned" thread - but, you guys are getting into a whole different league! Wanna put a sock in it and get back to the topic? Thank you!

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simpleisbetter
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Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: Joad]
      #5343480 - 07/30/12 01:56 PM

Guess what, I agree 100% with everything you just said. It amazes me how regularly threads detour. I've been busy over the weekend and was trying to catch up on this one, only to be diverted through the Euro exploration and each person's perceived views of what the truth is on that. So I was getting a bit annoyed trying to weed those posts out. When I came to the statement on native Americans, and the judgment call on what happened, I had to question the views and how they applied here. I agreed with everything you were saying up until that one example or statement where you posed your sympathetic bias in your view of American History.

I remember that you were a moderator here and appreciate all that group does. But to me it doesn't mean we can't question someone's views we think are wrong just because they are or were a moderator. That's why I persisted, you asked for my credentials and challenged me, but didn't talk to or answer the question. I'm a retired bomb squad tech so by nature I keep going until I get honest conversation, that's why I kept pushing. If you don't want to answer...don't... the dialogue ends here.

But as I said I agree with this last post 100%. Best to you and yours.


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Rick Woods
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Reged: 01/27/05

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Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5343505 - 07/30/12 02:13 PM

Quote:

I'm a retired bomb squad tech so by nature I keep going until I get honest conversation, that's why I kept pushing.




So, you're the guy who if I see you running away, I should follow you!


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simpleisbetter
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Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5343518 - 07/30/12 02:20 PM

ROFL! Yep I would be one Rick, though at 50yo I'm not so fast anymore.

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scopethis
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Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5343691 - 07/30/12 03:54 PM

Here's my thought about China's Space Program (not intending to open a can of worms here)...but how much of their program is "original" and how much have they "copied"? Did/do they actually "invent" anything?

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simpleisbetter
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Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: scopethis]
      #5343735 - 07/30/12 04:11 PM

I suspect much is copied, which makes good sense. Why expend resources for work that's already been done, and when proven ideas and technology already exists? OTOH - how much has been honestly acquired and how much have their spies stolen, is my question.

In the thread on Manned vs Unmanned Spaceflight, a more curious question was posed. How much of China's space program is real and how much is propaganda? Especially WRT their long-term lunar/planetary plans, given that China's made these claims before but it all turned out to be vaporware. If this question was already asked in this thread I apologize I haven't caught up on all the posts here yet.


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Shadowalker
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Reged: 11/23/04

Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: scopethis]
      #5343738 - 07/30/12 04:13 PM

Quote:

Here's my thought about China's Space Program .... how much of their program is "original" and how much have they "copied"? Did/do they actually "invent" anything?




Well, they are building it and operating it. Some of their equipment uses technology borrowed from the old Soviet program. Much of it is new.

However, nothing in the space business is easy. Regardless of the head-start China got in technology, what they're now doing is world-class. I think what they're doing is very worthy of merit.


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Rick Woods
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Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5343809 - 07/30/12 04:56 PM

Quote:

OTOH - how much has been honestly acquired and how much have their spies stolen, is my question.




Not really important, either. I'd bet dollars to donuts that we stole a lot from the Soviets back in the day, to make up for their substantial lead in rocket technology. There's no "honesty" per se in this field; if the other guy knows something you need to know, you find it out however you can. Just business.

Whether they actually go to the Moon is another matter. Look how much they've stirred us up just by talking about it! Maybe they just know what buttons to push to make us squirm.


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simpleisbetter
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Reged: 04/18/11

Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5343836 - 07/30/12 05:15 PM

You're right, it's not necessarily important, just a curiosity. One of my favorite Cold War stories is the fact the Soviets sold us all the raw titanium in open trade that we built the SR71's with to spy on them.

Whether we stole technology from the Soviets I'm not sure, but I'll bet if I were to brush up on my history of our space program I'd probably find lots of references to us reverse engineering what the Soviets at the time were doing wrt rocket and ICBM research. Curiously, to an extent there was a limited open dialog between the two nation's space programs for a period of time. Not sure if either nation had to steal from the other but my history on that is a bit rusty.

The same is quite possible true of China and that they don't need to steal anything, unless it comes from Sandia Labs...


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Rick Woods
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Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5344046 - 07/30/12 07:25 PM

Luckily our German scientists were more organized than their German scientists. (Or maybe just better funded.)

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ebusinesstutor
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Reged: 07/01/09

Loc: Nanaimo, BC, Canada
Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5351146 - 08/04/12 01:12 AM

I am very pleased to see China taking such an active role in space. The more countries who are active and are learning new and better ways for us to explore, travel and live in space, the better.

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hokkaido53
sage


Reged: 05/07/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: China is seriously working on manned space voyages new [Re: ebusinesstutor]
      #6252348 - 12/14/13 09:51 AM

Quote:

I am very pleased to see China taking such an active role in space. The more countries who are active and are learning new and better ways for us to explore, travel and live in space, the better.




Yesterday, a Chinese unmanned craft landed on the moon:
http://www.reuters.com/article/email/idUSBRE9BD06T20131214


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