Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

Speciality Forums >> Science! Astronomy & Space Exploration, and Others

Pages: << 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | >> (show all)
JohnMurphyRN
sage
*****

Reged: 09/09/12

Loc: Near St Louis
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Pess]
      #5555672 - 12/05/12 01:21 PM

"I've said before that I doubt true space faring races stuck in an Einsteinian universe would bother with gravity wells..."

Sounds like I can add Niven to the list of SF you read...The two you mention I'm not familiar with. I'll have to have a look.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Pess]
      #5555914 - 12/05/12 04:09 PM

Quote:

...except maybe to dip into it now and then to harvest some protein delicacies...






Even that's pretty unlikely when you think about it. There are nearly an infinite number of possible protein configurations, and the ones used by terrestrial life form a very small subset, including having a limited number of amino acids. There's no reason that other life forms would have anything like our subset of configurations, or that they would use them for the same functions. How many of them would even be digestible? Same goes for sugars and fatty acids. Life as we know it uses the compounds it does probably mostly out of evolutionary tradition from somewhat arbitrary origins.

Think of capsaicin. We can tolerate small amounts of it, some other creatures can't take any, and others don't even notice. Suppose there is a living system on some other planet where it's a necessary signalling molecule -- all of that life would be toxic to us, even if it uses mostly familiar organic compounds otherwise. But the chances are that other life forms will use compounds that our digestive systems have not adapted to, and are possibly toxic to us. I suspect we'd probably be toxic to other life forms as well.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5555937 - 12/05/12 04:22 PM

Quote:


Think of capsaicin. We can tolerate small amounts of it, some other creatures can't take any, and others don't even notice. Suppose there is a living system on some other planet where it's a necessary signalling molecule -- all of that life would be toxic to us, even if it uses mostly familiar organic compounds otherwise. But the chances are that other life forms will use compounds that our digestive systems have not adapted to, and are possibly toxic to us. I suspect we'd probably be toxic to other life forms as well.




You mean Star Trek lied to us when they pretty much beamed down unprotected to just about any alien planet eating with & (in Kirks case) mating with the indigenous population?

I always wondered about the partial pressure problem of different planets? Even if the atmosphere was breathable I would have concerns about air embolism, decompression sickness etc going from ship to surface so quickly.

Also consider the revulsion factor. Who in their right mind would eat some slimy tentacled alien ink squirter?

Pesse (I need to order a plate of Calamari and think this through.) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5555946 - 12/05/12 04:27 PM

Quote:

Think of capsaicin. We can tolerate small amounts of it, some other creatures can't take any, and others don't even notice. Suppose there is a living system on some other planet where it's a necessary signalling molecule




So instead of tasting like chicken, the creatures of that planet would taste like buffalo wings...

Mmmm.... Scotty, beam me down some blue cheese dressing...

Jarad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Jarad]
      #5555949 - 12/05/12 04:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Think of capsaicin. We can tolerate small amounts of it, some other creatures can't take any, and others don't even notice. Suppose there is a living system on some other planet where it's a necessary signalling molecule





So instead of tasting like chicken, the creatures of that planet would taste like buffalo wings...

Mmmm.... Scotty, beam me down some blue cheese dressing...

Jarad




Horta are just like Oysters..only giant sized.

Pesse (I'm thinking aphrodisiac on steroids here...) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Pess]
      #5556103 - 12/05/12 06:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Think of capsaicin. We can tolerate small amounts of it, some other creatures can't take any, and others don't even notice. Suppose there is a living system on some other planet where it's a necessary signalling molecule -- all of that life would be toxic to us, even if it uses mostly familiar organic compounds otherwise. But the chances are that other life forms will use compounds that our digestive systems have not adapted to, and are possibly toxic to us. I suspect we'd probably be toxic to other life forms as well.




You mean Star Trek lied to us when they pretty much beamed down unprotected to just about any alien planet eating with & (in Kirks case) mating with the indigenous population?

I always wondered about the partial pressure problem of different planets? Even if the atmosphere was breathable I would have concerns about air embolism, decompression sickness etc going from ship to surface so quickly.

Also consider the revulsion factor. Who in their right mind would eat some slimy tentacled alien ink squirter?

Pesse (I need to order a plate of Calamari and think this through.) Mist




But what about green Orion slave girls?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5556106 - 12/05/12 06:09 PM

Quote:

There's no reason that other life forms would have anything like our subset of configurations, or that they would use them for the same functions.




But (given our old friend, the sample of one), there's no reason they wouldn't, either.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5556679 - 12/05/12 11:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

There's no reason that other life forms would have anything like our subset of configurations, or that they would use them for the same functions.




But (given our old friend, the sample of one), there's no reason they wouldn't, either.




Actually, we already have sample sizes greater than one for many of the compounds life uses. There are a number of examples of very different substances being used for parallel functions in different organisms.

Take skin covering, for instance. Plants use cellulose, arthropods use chitin, and vertebrates use keratin. Three substances, three lineages, one function.

Take skeletal structures. Plants use a combination of cellulose and lignin, arthropods use chitin (their skin is their skeleton), and vertebrates use a combination of collagen and calcium phosphate.

And these are all from eukaryotes that shared the same DNA for nearly 3 billion years before diverging into different lineages. Yet for all our shared history, and for all the eating our ancestors have been doing on plants and arthropods, we still can't digest cellulose or lignin or chitin.

Add to that the fact that the same peptides can have very different effects in different cell types, and you begin to see that the relationship between molecule and function is a very loose one overall -- however specific it may be in any given cell type -- and there is no reason to expect that living systems with very different origins, different histories, and different environments would find molecules from completely foreign organisms to be of any use.

I'd be surprised indeed if we were to find that any E.T. was safely digestible for us, or us for them.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5556712 - 12/06/12 12:17 AM

They don't want to eat us, anyway; they want to lay eggs inside us!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5556736 - 12/06/12 12:49 AM

Good point!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5556966 - 12/06/12 07:07 AM

What about life forms with a skeletal system of low viscosity gelatins.

Most are found in Washington


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Mister T]
      #5557395 - 12/06/12 12:02 PM



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5557517 - 12/06/12 01:07 PM

In "T"-no Veritas.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CounterWeight
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Palo alto, CA.
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5559107 - 12/07/12 11:24 AM

The Drake and other like equations are IMO just an attempt to address the idea of putting what we currently know and think we know into a harness to discuss possibilities, nothing more.

It could be called a classical misuse of math? I'm unsure the underlying logic is sound from a set theoretic standpoint or axiomatic scrutiny, maybe it is just a tautology in disguise. I say this as I don't see a reasonable null hypothesis it could form that leads anywhere at all.

Quote:

In my gut (meaning, I haven't thought this through with either rigourous logic or serious intellectual research) I feel this silence betokens either there is no intelligent/sentient life elsewhere, or that the geometries of scale in the universe are so large and the limitations of physics so severe even they can't overcome them.

Your thoughts, please.






This makes an assumption that we are by some measure 'intellegent' and that it somehow would apply somewhere else - but we have a sample of one. This 'idea' of intellegent is in many ways debated, so it's not that there is a clear definition. If the equation could apply to bacteria in a Petri dish then I rest my case. Let me take the opposite side and say we are not intelligent, and then proceed - then there is a possibility that an intelligence from elsewhere would avoid us beyond cataloging that we are here.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5559203 - 12/07/12 12:17 PM



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #5559255 - 12/07/12 12:57 PM

Quote:

This 'idea' of intellegent is in many ways debated, so it's not that there is a clear definition. If the equation could apply to bacteria in a Petri dish then I rest my case. Let me take the opposite side and say we are not intelligent, and then proceed - then there is a possibility that an intelligence from elsewhere would avoid us beyond cataloging that we are here.




On the intelligence spectrum, I think a clear distinction could be made between bacteria in a petri dish and bacteria who design and build their own dish, find ways to the move the container from place to place, and develop strategies and technologies to communicate with colonies of bacteria in other dishes near and far.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5559262 - 12/07/12 01:00 PM

Quote:

This makes an assumption that we are by some measure 'intellegent' and that it somehow would apply somewhere else - but we have a sample of one. This 'idea' of intellegent is in many ways debated, so it's not that there is a clear definition. If the equation could apply to bacteria in a Petri dish then I rest my case. Let me take the opposite side and say we are not intelligent, and then proceed - then there is a possibility that an intelligence from elsewhere would avoid us beyond cataloging that we are here.




Good point. Dogs are really intelligent and really quite good at being 'dogs'.

Cro-magnum man was probably just as intelligent as modern man..we just have more developed tools and social interaction than they had.

Pesse (My Girlfriend calls me a mouth breathing Neanderthal...I am not sure, but I don't think it's a compliment.) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Skip
Starlifter Driver
*****

Reged: 01/23/08

Loc: Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Pess]
      #5559528 - 12/07/12 04:02 PM

Well at least you are not considered a "knuckle-dragging Neanderthal".

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5559581 - 12/07/12 04:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This 'idea' of intellegent is in many ways debated, so it's not that there is a clear definition. If the equation could apply to bacteria in a Petri dish then I rest my case. Let me take the opposite side and say we are not intelligent, and then proceed - then there is a possibility that an intelligence from elsewhere would avoid us beyond cataloging that we are here.




On the intelligence spectrum, I think a clear distinction could be made between bacteria in a petri dish and bacteria who design and build their own dish, find ways to the move the container from place to place, and develop strategies and technologies to communicate with colonies of bacteria in other dishes near and far.




Exactly. What we are looking for when we mention extraterrestrial "intelligence" is actually technology on a level that we ourselves can recognize and understand. High intelligence without technology wouldn't show up on our radar.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5559728 - 12/07/12 06:13 PM

Quote:

Exactly. What we are looking for when we mention extraterrestrial "intelligence" is actually technology on a level that we ourselves can recognize and understand. High intelligence without technology wouldn't show up on our radar.




Right-o Technology too far behind us isn't work acknowledging and to far advanced to us and we sacrifice virgins to it.

Pesse (It's a Goldilocks conundrum) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: << 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | >> (show all)


Extra information
4 registered and 5 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  LivingNDixie, FirstSight, JayinUT 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 19878

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics