Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green GuÖ uh, User

Speciality Forums >> Science! Astronomy & Space Exploration, and Others

Pages: << 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | >> (show all)
Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Pess]
      #5561046 - 12/08/12 03:16 PM

We have no evidence of the existence of the extra-terrestrials. Further, we have no evidence of communication by or contact made with us by sentient extra-terrestrials.

The geometries of the universe (distance, time, volume, material saturation) and the technologies of space travel we are currently able to envisage are the preferred reasons for why we lack evidence of existence and contact.

While I affirm the likelihood of these two reasons sufficiently accounting for the deafening silence, there is another explanation I would like to offer; the role of anonymity. The role of anonymity as a partial explanation for the deafening silence is meant not as an alternative explanation. It may play only a piece, but, perhaps, an important piece.

Personally and professionally I have known hundreds of individuals who are, or have been while still alive, in recovery from substance and/or behavioral addictions. Many, but not all, of these individuals with whom I have interacted credit this accomplishment to twelve step programs; the classic example of which is Alcoholics Anonymous. For those unfamiliar with this recovery program, the program of recovery includes many suggestions among which the twelve steps constitute the most important, but not exclusive, part. Another piece of these recovery programs is the twelve traditions, the eleventh of which is, ďOur public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.Ē

It is the opinion of many who have sought and experienced recovery as a result of participation in this program that the practice of anonymity is an essential element in their individual recovery and in the continued availability of this program. More specifically, members have found it valuable to avoid identifying themselves as members of these twelve step programs when engaged in public affairs not associated with the twelve step program to which they belong individually. Nearing the end of its first century of existence, twelve step programs have deep memories of the disastrous effects of individuals in recovery failing to practice anonymity in all of their affairs. In some cases, the lack of anonymity has negatively impacted the reputation and availability of the program for others who might have need of it. Second, failing to practice anonymity of action tends to be related to a return to addictive substance use and other behaviors.

In everyday practice this anonymity takes the forms of (1) not identifying oneself as a member of the program when involved in other public activities unrelated to the twelve step program to which they belong, and (2) when doing acts of service these individuals attempt to perform the service in such a way that few if any know they (the individuals in recovery) were the ones doing the service. An example of the first might be a corporate executive or politician involved in initiating a program of public education in substance abuse who refrains from also identifying herself as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. An example of the second might be the man who anonymously picks up hand wiping paper towels off the restroom floor at his place of employment whenever he uses the same facility.

{edited by moderator}

Modern day psychology, being as it is, largely reduced to psycho-metrics, is the first to assert that the behaviors, actions, and ideas of those in addiction recovery are in fact empirical, objective phenomena which can be scientifically examined and mathematically described.

For argument sake, let us assume the empirical and objective results of such recovery programs evidence the value of anonymous service. This assumption having been made, it would then follow that sentient extra-terrestrial beings, possessing vastly superior reasoning ability and technological proficiency might see it beneficial for us, human beings, that they keep their presence among us secret and beneficial activities as anonymous as possible.

Edited by Jarad (12/09/12 08:23 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shawnhar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5561066 - 12/08/12 03:30 PM

Umm....no, there is NO evidence of life elsewhere, saying they are here and want to remain secret is wild, baseless psycho-babble like saying Elvis is still alive and he's keeping it a secret because the aliens told him to.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
TL2101
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/17/10

Loc: Concord, CA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5561249 - 12/08/12 05:37 PM


Looks like we may soon have a warp drive only problem we blow ourselves and everyone around us up when we stop. The Aliens aren't going to like this.

link


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5561407 - 12/08/12 07:51 PM

Otto, you continue to make pseudo-arguments that begin "for the sake of argument." But your "for the sake of" premise is actually your conclusion. Whether this is an example of circular reasoning, or of begging the question, it is a rhetorical and logical fallacy. Someone with your philosophical training should know that.

You also keep trying to slip what are essentially your religious beliefs into your posts in this forum. It is blatantly obvious.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mich_al
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/10/09

Loc: Rural central lower Michigan ...
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Joad]
      #5561553 - 12/08/12 09:41 PM

Quote:

Otto, you continue to make pseudo-arguments that begin "for the sake of argument." But your "for the sake of" premise is actually your conclusion. Whether this is an example of circular reasoning, or of begging the question, it is a rhetorical and logical fallacy. Someone with your philosophical training should know that.

You also keep trying to slip what are essentially your religious beliefs into your posts in this forum. It is blatantly obvious.





AND continues to dig the hole deeper. EVERY time. What is the saying? Clarity is the cube root of vebosity?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: mich_al]
      #5561582 - 12/08/12 10:06 PM

Anonymous service is, as all of us know, not unique to those striving to recover from substance or behavioral addictions. It is practiced by members of many groups. It is often done by parents for their children, by coaches for the athletes under their care, by health care workers for the physically and mentally ill, by teachers for their students. In each case it is done by someone who has a comparative advantage of experience, or knowledge, or aptitude, or ability to those they seek to serve; to help. In some, perhaps many, certainly not all, and perhaps most of such situations, the desire is altruistic and the effort is healthy and helpful.

Operating under the assumption that most sentient extra-terrestrials who could have contact or communication with us are vastly superior in knowledge, ability, experience, and aptitude to us, is it a stretch to imagine that they have reached the same conclusion as the addict in recovery, the parent, the coach, the teacher? Is it reasonable to suggest that in their interactions with us they too might seek to use the advantages anonymity of action provide and avoid some of the dangers inherent in placing their own identities and egos in-front of their actions?

What are your thoughts about this possibility?

Otto


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5561631 - 12/08/12 10:47 PM

Quote:

Is it folly to think that the universe is teeming with life and the only reason there is silence, is because we are on the wrong side? Dark matter/energy...maybe that's where the party is, we just can't interact with them.




I dunno, folks; I still think Shawnhar has thrown in the most interesting idea of this whole thread...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5561637 - 12/08/12 10:51 PM

Quote:

The existence of a spiritual being is not a topic proper to this forum as decided by its facilitators. This forum is reserved for discussions of empirical, objective, phenomena which can be scientifically examined and mathematically described.




... Which has been pointed out any number of times. But that doesn't some folks from doing it over and over and over, does it?
No quitters, they!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mike Casey

*****

Reged: 11/11/04

Loc: El Pueblo de Nuestra Se√Īora l...
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5561786 - 12/09/12 01:27 AM

The silence is .........? Huh? What did you say?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Mike Casey]
      #5561840 - 12/09/12 03:24 AM

I said: The SCIENCE is deafening!!!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Qwickdraw
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Joad]
      #5561954 - 12/09/12 07:51 AM

Quote:

Otto, you continue to make pseudo-arguments that begin "for the sake of argument." But your "for the sake of" premise is actually your conclusion. Whether this is an example of circular reasoning, or of begging the question, it is a rhetorical and logical fallacy. Someone with your philosophical training should know that.

You also keep trying to slip what are essentially your religious beliefs into your posts in this forum. It is blatantly obvious.




So the reasonable question is at what point is it allowed to discuss an intelligent being/race or combination that has transcended the physical and mental barriers we are enslaved to every day?

We can discuss extraterrestrial life forms, even intelligent ones without any evidence they exist but when does it become acceptable to theorize about a vastly superior intellect which has harnessed the ability to defy physical constraints?

We can discuss warp drives, abiogenesis, teleportation, direct neural interfaces, etc. but we canít discuss a being which has harnessed all of these to perfection?

We already see behaviors such as quantum entanglement may be redefining what we once thought was impossible.

If humans were only allowed to contemplate what we thought was possible we may still be living in the Stone Age. It is imagining the impossible that sets us apart. A notion or idea without any supporting examples or basis can be thought up in the human mind.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
simpleisbetter
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 04/18/11

Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5561979 - 12/09/12 08:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Otto, you continue to make pseudo-arguments that begin "for the sake of argument." But your "for the sake of" premise is actually your conclusion. Whether this is an example of circular reasoning, or of begging the question, it is a rhetorical and logical fallacy. Someone with your philosophical training should know that.

You also keep trying to slip what are essentially your religious beliefs into your posts in this forum. It is blatantly obvious.




So the reasonable question is at what point is it allowed to discuss an intelligent being/race or combination that has transcended the physical and mental barriers we are enslaved to every day?

We can discuss extraterrestrial life forms, even intelligent ones without any evidence they exist but when does it become acceptable to theorize about a vastly superior intellect which has harnessed the ability to defy physical constraints?

We can discuss warp drives, abiogenesis, teleportation, direct neural interfaces, etc. but we canít discuss a being which has harnessed all of these to perfection?

We already see behaviors such as quantum entanglement may be redefining what we once thought was impossible.

If humans were only allowed to contemplate what we thought was possible we may still be living in the Stone Age. It is imagining the impossible that sets us apart. A notion or idea without any supporting examples or basis can be thought up in the human mind.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: simpleisbetter]
      #5562070 - 12/09/12 09:39 AM

Wise, intelligent, capable persons act in anonymous ways in order to benefit others. Is it reasonable that extra-terrestrials, whose intelligence and technical aptitude far surpass the intelligence and capabilities of any of the wisest human persons, would do the same?

Otto


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5562278 - 12/09/12 11:40 AM

Intelligence is not the same as "wisdom". No, there's no necessary correlation between technological advancement and personal behavior that you find attractive.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mountain monk
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/06/09

Loc: Grand Teton National Park
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5562315 - 12/09/12 12:00 PM

It's likely that this has been mentioned somewhere is this long thread, but I'll quote it again just to make sure:

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." C. Hitchens

I would shorten it even more, leaving out the last two words...

Enjoy the night sky.

Jack


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5562321 - 12/09/12 12:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Otto, you continue to make pseudo-arguments that begin "for the sake of argument." But your "for the sake of" premise is actually your conclusion. Whether this is an example of circular reasoning, or of begging the question, it is a rhetorical and logical fallacy. Someone with your philosophical training should know that.

You also keep trying to slip what are essentially your religious beliefs into your posts in this forum. It is blatantly obvious.




So the reasonable question is at what point is it allowed to discuss an intelligent being/race or combination that has transcended the physical and mental barriers we are enslaved to every day?

We can discuss extraterrestrial life forms, even intelligent ones without any evidence they exist but when does it become acceptable to theorize about a vastly superior intellect which has harnessed the ability to defy physical constraints?

We can discuss warp drives, abiogenesis, teleportation, direct neural interfaces, etc. but we canít discuss a being which has harnessed all of these to perfection?

We already see behaviors such as quantum entanglement may be redefining what we once thought was impossible.

If humans were only allowed to contemplate what we thought was possible we may still be living in the Stone Age. It is imagining the impossible that sets us apart. A notion or idea without any supporting examples or basis can be thought up in the human mind.




Because there's nothing there to discuss. You can't even define what "perfection" is for all these concepts that we know in name only. You by definition cannot "theorize about a vastly superior intellect which has harnessed the ability to defy physical constraints", because by any scientific definition to theorize about something is to place it in a context of mappable physical constraints. You notice we don't spend much time talking about teleportation here, unless there's a news item where specific research has addressed the problem in some small way. We talk about abiogenesis only to the extent that we can conceive of chemical/energetic process that might play a role in a phenomenon that we have very good evidence has already occurred at least once. I don't recall much discussion of direct neural interfaces, but if we did, it would still be something you could point to with some sort of credible theory and research program. Quantum entanglement has been mentioned, but so have its very real limitations. It's not "magic", and you won't find us here discussing it as such. When you get the technical background to start a technical discussion of a technology that can be used in a tangible way, then it becomes appropriate for this forum. Beyond that, the only reasonable response is an occasional humorous aside. We don't under any circumstances entertain ideas here that "defy physical constraints", and none of the other ideas you mentioned, no matter how aetherial, claim such a leap.

Science does not defy physical constraints, it defines them. When you can come up with a topic that credibly defines a set of physical constraints on some imaginative phenomenon, then I think it will work here. Otherwise, it's not science, and you're simply in the wrong forum.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
simpleisbetter
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 04/18/11

Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5562385 - 12/09/12 12:36 PM

whatever

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5562444 - 12/09/12 01:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Otto, you continue to make pseudo-arguments that begin "for the sake of argument." But your "for the sake of" premise is actually your conclusion. Whether this is an example of circular reasoning, or of begging the question, it is a rhetorical and logical fallacy. Someone with your philosophical training should know that.

You also keep trying to slip what are essentially your religious beliefs into your posts in this forum. It is blatantly obvious.




So the reasonable question is at what point is it allowed to discuss an intelligent being/race or combination that has transcended the physical and mental barriers we are enslaved to every day?

We can discuss extraterrestrial life forms, even intelligent ones without any evidence they exist but when does it become acceptable to theorize about a vastly superior intellect which has harnessed the ability to defy physical constraints?

We can discuss warp drives, abiogenesis, teleportation, direct neural interfaces, etc. but we canít discuss a being which has harnessed all of these to perfection?

We already see behaviors such as quantum entanglement may be redefining what we once thought was impossible.

If humans were only allowed to contemplate what we thought was possible we may still be living in the Stone Age. It is imagining the impossible that sets us apart. A notion or idea without any supporting examples or basis can be thought up in the human mind.




Because there's nothing there to discuss. You can't even define what "perfection" is for all these concepts that we know in name only. You by definition cannot "theorize about a vastly superior intellect which has harnessed the ability to defy physical constraints", because by any scientific definition to theorize about something is to place it in a context of mappable physical constraints. You notice we don't spend much time talking about teleportation here, unless there's a news item where specific research has addressed the problem in some small way. We talk about abiogenesis only to the extent that we can conceive of chemical/energetic process that might play a role in a phenomenon that we have very good evidence has already occurred at least once. I don't recall much discussion of direct neural interfaces, but if we did, it would still be something you could point to with some sort of credible theory and research program. Quantum entanglement has been mentioned, but so have its very real limitations. It's not "magic", and you won't find us here discussing it as such. When you get the technical background to start a technical discussion of a technology that can be used in a tangible way, then it becomes appropriate for this forum. Beyond that, the only reasonable response is an occasional humorous aside. We don't under any circumstances entertain ideas here that "defy physical constraints", and none of the other ideas you mentioned, no matter how aetherial, claim such a leap.

Science does not defy physical constraints, it defines them. When you can come up with a topic that credibly defines a set of physical constraints on some imaginative phenomenon, then I think it will work here. Otherwise, it's not science, and you're simply in the wrong forum.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JohnMurphyRN
sage
*****

Reged: 09/09/12

Loc: Near St Louis
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Joad]
      #5562717 - 12/09/12 04:14 PM

Is absence of evidence evidence of absence?

Likely.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: JohnMurphyRN]
      #5563094 - 12/09/12 08:33 PM

Quote:

Anonymous service is, as all of us know, not unique to those striving to recover from substance or behavioral addictions. It is practiced by members of many groups. It is often done by parents for their children, by coaches for the athletes under their care, by health care workers for the physically and mentally ill, by teachers for their students. In each case it is done by someone who has a comparative advantage of experience, or knowledge, or aptitude, or ability to those they seek to serve; to help. In some, perhaps many, certainly not all, and perhaps most of such situations, the desire is altruistic and the effort is healthy and helpful.




The key here is desire to serve or help. You are assuming that all aliens would want to help us.

I will grant that if an alien race existed and wanted to help us, it might do so anonymously. But I think that is a large and unlikely assumption.

Humans help each other because we are related. We are much more likely to help relatives than neighbors, more likely to help neighbors than strangers, and more likely to help members of our own cultural groups than members of different ones. We are much less likely to help other species - in fact, we mostly either eat them, use them for their fur or skin or other parts, or take over their habitat. We don't disguise ourselves as them to anonymously guide their development into a more sentient species.

I think that an advanced species that came across us would be much more likely to adopt a similar attitude as we have to indigenous species when we find new territory than to adopt us as their "little brother" in alcoholics anonymous.

Jarad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: << 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | >> (show all)


Extra information
2 registered and 2 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  LivingNDixie, FirstSight, JayinUT 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 19828

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics