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Ira
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What if m=ec^2?
      #5528512 - 11/19/12 06:14 PM

In another possible world where this law held instead of the one we have now, what would the universe look like?

/Ira


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Joad
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Re: What if m=ec^2? new [Re: Ira]
      #5528820 - 11/19/12 09:11 PM

Cleveland.

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Ira
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Re: What if m=ec^2? new [Re: Joad]
      #5528840 - 11/19/12 09:24 PM

I knew it couldn't be California.

/Ira


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Man in a Tub
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Re: What if m=ec^2? new [Re: Ira]
      #5529408 - 11/20/12 05:38 AM

Rearranging to e=m/c^2

"The hurrier I go, the behinder I get." — Lewis Carroll


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Mister T
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Reged: 02/01/08

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Re: What if m=ec^2? new [Re: Ira]
      #5529730 - 11/20/12 10:09 AM

Did Otto put you up to that?


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Pess
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Re: What if m=ec^2? new [Re: Man in a Tub]
      #5530357 - 11/20/12 02:52 PM

Quote:

Rearranging to e=m/c^2

"The hurrier I go, the behinder I get." — Lewis Carroll




Pesse (I think that would lead to a massive change in the Universe.) Mist


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Jarad
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Re: What if m=ec^2? new [Re: Pess]
      #5530398 - 11/20/12 03:12 PM

Well, then stars would run out of fuel much faster, because mass would suddenly carry a lot less "bang for the buck", so to speak. C^4 less bang, to be exact....

Jarad


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FirstSightModerator
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Re: What if m=ec^2? new [Re: Joad]
      #5530574 - 11/20/12 04:27 PM

Quote:

Cleveland.




Oh....noes! OK, it could be worse; it could look like Camden, NJ.


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FirstSightModerator
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Re: What if new [Re: Jarad]
      #5530584 - 11/20/12 04:33 PM

Quote:

Well, then stars would run out of fuel much faster, because mass would suddenly carry a lot less "bang for the buck", so to speak. C^4 less bang, to be exact....

Jarad




If so, the vast majority of primordial disks of gas and dust that have formed stars under e = mc^2 would not have enough energy to ignite the fusion process under m=ec^2 in the first place, and most of the mass which is now stars would instead be tied up in more massive versions of not-enough-for-prime time balls of gas like Jupiter.


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Man in a Tub
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Re: What if new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5530630 - 11/20/12 05:01 PM

Quote:


If so, the vast majority of primordial disks of gas and dust that have formed stars under e = mc^2 would not have enough energy to ignite the fusion process under m=ec^2 in the first place, and most of the mass which is now stars would instead be tied up in more massive versions of not-enough-for-prime time balls of gas like Jupiter.




Thanks for the particulars which are beyond my skills! How could such a universe even originate and proceed from a "Big Bang"?


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StarWars
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Re: What if m=ec^2? new [Re: Man in a Tub]
      #5530876 - 11/20/12 07:23 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

Quote:

Rearranging to e=m/c^2

"The hurrier I go, the behinder I get." — Lewis Carroll





Instead of the Big Bang it would of been the Big Twang...



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llanitedave
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Re: What if new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5531305 - 11/20/12 11:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well, then stars would run out of fuel much faster, because mass would suddenly carry a lot less "bang for the buck", so to speak. C^4 less bang, to be exact....

Jarad




If so, the vast majority of primordial disks of gas and dust that have formed stars under e = mc^2 would not have enough energy to ignite the fusion process under m=ec^2 in the first place, and most of the mass which is now stars would instead be tied up in more massive versions of not-enough-for-prime time balls of gas like Jupiter.





It probably goes beyond that. I'm not sure that matter as we know it would even be able to exist under those conditions. Doesn't that relationship pervade all the forces of matter?


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Mister T
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Re: What if new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5531618 - 11/21/12 07:36 AM

wouldn't it all depend on what it all started as?

if it began as e, then we would have a whole lot more m around.

stars would form sooner and get bigger, and would not fusion take place at the same star mass just produce less e

but if we started with m then we would have same stars producing less e , therefore getting much denser before going supernova or perhaps no supernovas because gravity would be able to counter act the reduced e and resulting in "slightly above average Novas"

or mediocrenovas


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Jarad
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Re: What if new [Re: Mister T]
      #5531665 - 11/21/12 08:22 AM

I remember my freshman physics class, after we had studied our orbital mechanics, we walked in to the first test. It started out:

Quote:

In our universe the equation for gravity is F = G*M1*M2/R^2. For this test, you will be calculating orbits in a universe where gravity is F = G*M1*M2*R.




I remember looking around and seeing the sweat popping out on everyone else's foreheads, too, as we realized we were going to have to re-derive all of the formulas we had memorized.



Jarad


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Kobayashi
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Re: What if new [Re: Jarad]
      #5532349 - 11/21/12 02:09 PM

Keep in mind that a physics formula doesn't deal with numbers, they deal with physical quantities with units. e=mc^2 works because energy has the unit of mass * distance^2 / time^2. A Joule equals kg*m^2/s^2.

In a world where e=m/c^2, energy would have the units of mass * time^2 / distance^2. I guess kinetic energy would be 1/2 m/v^2 - i.e. the smaller the speed, the larger the kinetic energy. I can't even begin to imagine what that universe looks like.


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Pess
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Re: What if new [Re: Kobayashi]
      #5532434 - 11/21/12 03:01 PM

Quote:

Keep in mind that a physics formula doesn't deal with numbers, they deal with physical quantities with units. e=mc^2 works because energy has the unit of mass * distance^2 / time^2. A Joule equals kg*m^2/s^2.

In a world where e=m/c^2, energy would have the units of mass * time^2 / distance^2. I guess kinetic energy would be 1/2 m/v^2 - i.e. the smaller the speed, the larger the kinetic energy. I can't even begin to imagine what that universe looks like.




Pesse (Just tap it in. Just tap it in. Give it a little tappy. Tap Tap Taparoo.) Mist


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Jarad
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Re: What if new [Re: Pess]
      #5532471 - 11/21/12 03:18 PM

The good news is it would take less gas to go fast than to go slow.

Does that mean that NASCAR in that universe would be a contest to see who can go the slowest around the track?

Jarad


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EJN
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Re: What if m=ec^2? new [Re: Ira]
      #5532480 - 11/21/12 03:24 PM

Atomic bombs would be firecrackers.

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Pess
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Re: What if new [Re: Jarad]
      #5532484 - 11/21/12 03:25 PM

E=MC^2 means that it takes a LOT of energy to fuse two atoms.

E=M/C^2 means it takes very LITTLE energy to fuse two atoms..bascially coming within smell distance of each other ought to do it.

No need for stars to run fusion reactions. Atoms will combine willy-nilly just bumping into each other where kinetic energy would overcome the strong nuclear force.

So after the Big Bang the quark soup would rapidly coalesce into hydrogen atoms which would then keep fusing until the process resulted in the most stable atomic arrangement possible.

Pesse (Basically the Universe would be one big block of lead.) Mist


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PhilCo126
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Re: What if new [Re: Pess]
      #5532545 - 11/21/12 03:58 PM

Well, in fact the equilibrium inside stars (attractive gravity and central high pressure~temperature) means that energy has some "weight"


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Pess
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Re: What if new [Re: PhilCo126]
      #5532682 - 11/21/12 05:20 PM

Quote:

Well, in fact the equilibrium inside stars (attractive gravity and central high pressure~temperature) means that energy has some "weight"





My point was, all other things being equal, that fusion wouldn't require stars. In fact tiny grains would fuse..and fuse..and fuse again until you had lead.

You wouldn't need stars for this and all that lead would collapse down under its own weight since there would be no 'energy' pushing back.

A star is in equilibrium when the energy released during the fusion process exactly pushes back against the gravitational collapse.

When a star uses up all available fusion fuel then, depending on the mass of the star, it'll collapse down to a black hole or trigger a last hurrah known as a supernova which is the Universes way of puking out all the heavy elements.

Pesse (Sort of like a used up college student after an all weekend beer-bender) Mist


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Man in a Tub
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Re: What if new [Re: Pess]
      #5533115 - 11/21/12 11:11 PM

Could this universe originate with a "Big Ooze"?

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StarWars
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Re: What if m=ec^2? new [Re: Man in a Tub]
      #5533178 - 11/22/12 12:04 AM Attachment (21 downloads)

Quote:

Rearranging to e=m/c^2

"The hurrier I go, the behinder I get." — Lewis Carroll





I think the dinner table would still be graced with Tang and Twinkies...


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deSitter
Still in Old School


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Re: What if new [Re: Jarad]
      #5533489 - 11/22/12 07:55 AM

Quote:

The good news is it would take less gas to go fast than to go slow.

Does that mean that NASCAR in that universe would be a contest to see who can go the slowest around the track?

Jarad




If they put restrictor plates on the universe, I'm leaving. But you know how scientists are, all they want to see is bunching and crashing at horizons...

-drl


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Pess
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Re: What if new [Re: deSitter]
      #5540340 - 11/26/12 01:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The good news is it would take less gas to go fast than to go slow.

Does that mean that NASCAR in that universe would be a contest to see who can go the slowest around the track?

Jarad




If they put restrictor plates on the universe, I'm leaving. But you know how scientists are, all they want to see is bunching and crashing at horizons...

-drl




Pesse (Well, without restrictor plates everyone would just sit there.) Mist


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scopethis
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Re: What if new [Re: Pess]
      #5540355 - 11/26/12 01:54 PM

wouldn't one's digestive system run slower in such a universe---giving more time to read War and Peace in the bathroom?

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Pess
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Re: What if new [Re: scopethis]
      #5540363 - 11/26/12 01:59 PM

Quote:

wouldn't one's digestive system run slower in such a universe---giving more time to read War and Peace in the bathroom?





You'd probably have fusion going on all the way down as food was mushed together in the tract.

Pesse (Gives new meaning to the phrase--'C'mon, get the Lead out!') Mist


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scopethis
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Re: What if new [Re: Pess]
      #5540380 - 11/26/12 02:10 PM

wow..that's gonna be one big Mt. St. Helen's moment of relief.

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Ira
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Re: What if new [Re: scopethis]
      #5546824 - 11/30/12 09:00 AM

I knew this would be a hard question to answer!

/Ira


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