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neotesla
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Trip to Mars anyone?
      #5705965 - 02/28/13 06:50 PM

http://phys.org/news/2013-02-tycoon-couple-mars.html

Get your names in now...


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StarWars
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: neotesla]
      #5706080 - 02/28/13 07:46 PM




Let's go...

I would think 4 astronauts could make the trip however each should have a scientific background.

Dr of medicine
Electrical engineer
Mechanical engineer
Aerospace engineer


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llanitedave
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: StarWars]
      #5706963 - 03/01/13 10:45 AM

"In space, no one can hear you fight"

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RobertED
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5706977 - 03/01/13 10:52 AM

Hmmmm!....I'm not sure about this!!!! What kind of spacecraft is proposed???? NASA has nothing on the drawingboards, yet???? Right!?!?....

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Jarad
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: RobertED]
      #5707112 - 03/01/13 12:46 PM

I dunno, no showers for 2 years?

I think that rules me out - I would be a biological weapon after that long with no shower. Not even my wife could put up with me not showering for that long.

Jarad


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dickbill
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Jarad]
      #5707189 - 03/01/13 01:28 PM

If it's for a flyby, no way. If it's a landing, my opinion is the key to a manned landing mission is the availability of a nuclear interplanetary shuttle that could use the martian atmosphere for aerocapture and wait in martian orbit, while on its way back, it would be using chemical or nuclear rocketry to insert into earth orbit.
The martian habitat would be sent previously in an unmamned flight and stay on the martian surface definitively. If methane and oxygen can be made in situ on mars, then only a very light ascend vehicle is necessary to reach the orbiter from the Mars surface and this ascend vehicle should even be send back on the ground to be reused.
But a nuclear interplanetary shuttle with aerobraking capabilities is a big project. It's not just a question of money but of having all the engineering capabilities, and experience. We could have have it by now if it wasn't for the ISS.


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sirchz
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: neotesla]
      #5707232 - 03/01/13 01:55 PM

The risks seem clear. There is a non-negligible chance that whoever goes will not return. Also the possability of long term issues if they do make it back.

What are the possible rewards? Celebrity for those involved, however brief. Very inspirational, and a book & movie would surely follow regardless of the outcome. Is there any scienctific knowledge to be gained (other than sex in zero gravity)? Will there be any lasting benefits?

I'm think this belongs in the unlikely category.
1) Unlikely to happen.
2) If it happens, unlikely to succeed.
3) If it succeeds, unlikely to produce any lasting value.

I hope I'm wrong about all 3.


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Glassthrower
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: sirchz]
      #5707235 - 03/01/13 01:57 PM

I would volunteer if :

1) they would accept me.

2) if I can recover and bring back the Meridiani Planum meteorite from the Martian surface.

3) I also get to keep a small slice of said meteorite.

Sign me up.


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Pess
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5707271 - 03/01/13 02:24 PM

Bluntly,

1) We do not posses the technology to maintain uninterrupted life support for that long.

2) We do not posses the practical technology to create a ship that could shield astronauts from radiation during the voyage.

3) The average person eats 5lbs food per day. Multiply that by 4 people for duration of mission. Forget hydroponics.

4) Water is converted to poop & pee. So you need a lot of it. Ask yourself how often a resupply ship goes to the International space station?

Pesse (It would be a one-way mission.) Mist


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dickbill
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Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Pess]
      #5707416 - 03/01/13 04:04 PM

Way too pessimistic.
I say first go faster (go nuclear). 3 months max.
Then eat less during the space trip. Maybe it would be worthy of reconsidering decreased metabolic rates like the torper of hibernating animals. A slowed metabolism along with a quicker trip should protect against decalcification and muscular atrophy as well.
It seemed indeed silly to bring lots of food and water to sustain the intensive weight lifting and bike riding during the trip in space. That's lots of hamburgers to fight bones and muscle loss. And then nothing much is left to eat when they arrive in destination.
Radiations: all sci fi movies show small antiradiation shelters. The entire ship doesn't have to be super protected. The water tanks can make a torus around the shelter etc...
Also, before departure, astronauts can have their bone marrow and blood frozen for further use in case of cancer.
Actually, with a physician onboard and their own frozen blood available, a blood transfusion is possible during the trip.

Notice also that the martian hab has been send months before, it contains food and supply for extra security.

Anyways, the intellectual ressources of the engineers seem unlimited. They can resolve any problems. This way or any other ways. It's just political.


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ColoHank
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: dickbill]
      #5707495 - 03/01/13 05:03 PM

Driving across eastern Colorado and Kansas in my Highlander is an ordeal. Being confined to a space of similar size for month after month after month? Be my guest.

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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5707539 - 03/01/13 05:39 PM

Sure it's a bit crampy, but it's no worse than a trip in the Santa Maria with a lot of sweaty sailors eager to find gold and diamonds.

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Jay_Bird
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: dickbill]
      #5707615 - 03/01/13 06:32 PM

Another site, maybe BBC, had more details about this, it's not a landing.

2 people, flyby or orbit, and return.

Applying ISS technology that already makes today's coffee from yesterday's coffee

risky and ambitious, but not outrageous.

Wonder if some artificial gravity can be incorporated - that would seem prudent based on ISS experience.


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Matthew Ota
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Jay_Bird]
      #5708643 - 03/02/13 11:48 AM

I try to be optomistic about this proposal. NASA has nothing to do with it as it is a private venture.

It will take a very special couple to be able to do this. I would like to see it succeed.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Matthew Ota]
      #5709570 - 03/02/13 09:09 PM

The birth of the 150,000,000-mile-high club!
Very exclusive.


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neotesla
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5711342 - 03/03/13 07:56 PM

To add a unusual twist to this story... Radiation shielding has been an issue, the current idea is to use fecal material as a barrier.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23230-mars-trip-to-use-astronaut-poo-as...

Edited by neotesla (03/04/13 08:30 AM)


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wirenut
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: neotesla]
      #5711458 - 03/03/13 08:49 PM

My wife's only willing to sign up if she can be sedated during take-off,landing and anytime she sees fit. I think that counts us out.

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FirstSightModerator
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: wirenut]
      #5712133 - 03/04/13 09:18 AM

A further caveat to this "only a flyby" aspect of the mission is that apparently the optimal timing and path for minimizing the voyage's duration and fuel requirements will require that closest approach occur at an angle where the majority of the planet will present its "night-side" face to the passing craft. To me, this is analogous to trying to fit a marathon car road trip from the east coast to the Grand Canyon and back in a long weeked, and only arriving right as it's getting dark and having to leave before sunrise in order to make it back in time for work Monday morning. The destination might otherwise be abundantly worth the expense, time, and effort required, but under the circumstances hardly worthwhile simply to be able to say "we've been there".

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Pess
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5712707 - 03/04/13 03:04 PM

Cosmic radiation isn't the only thing you have to bother with. You have the threat of solar flares as well. These would take more than a poo-poo shield.

It would require some sort of internal, heavily shielded room or box enclosure to wait out the storm.

But that's not the biggest problem. You have to recycle EVERYTHING with 100% non-failure rate for mission duration.

Try and invent a system to keep a gerbil alive without ANY intervention for a year.

I think we are a long ways from such systems right now...

Pesse (Long trip just to look out the windows of a sight-seeing bus) Mist


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llanitedave
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Pess]
      #5712841 - 03/04/13 04:22 PM

Quote:


Try and invent a system to keep a gerbil alive without ANY intervention for a year.





Arguably, it would be easier to keep humans alive for long periods than gerbils, since humans provide their own interventions.

That said, it still doesn't strike me as the most pleasant of travel arrangements.


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5713056 - 03/04/13 06:14 PM

Yes, lots of problems. They thought a Heavy launcher was the key, but nuclear propulsion(s) seems at least as important and has to come back.

Actually, medium size launchers could be used to assemble a nuclear space ship with a few lauch. Isn't ArianeV heavy capable of ~30 tons in LEO?
Three launches make almost for a 100 t, that's not too bad


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neotesla
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5713060 - 03/04/13 06:16 PM

One must remember that the first manned trips to the moon were flybys as well...

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FirstSightModerator
Duke of Deneb
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5714021 - 03/05/13 09:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Try and invent a system to keep a gerbil alive without ANY intervention for a year.





Arguably, it would be easier to keep humans alive for long periods than gerbils, since humans provide their own interventions.




Problem: There's no Home Depot on the way to Mars to go buy more duck tape, pvc pipe, or wire you might need for "interventions". No all-night grocery stores either.


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ColoHank
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: neotesla]
      #5714161 - 03/05/13 10:44 AM

Quote:

One must remember that the first manned trips to the moon were flybys as well...




One must also remember that the first manned trip to the Moon, including twenty orbits of that body, took less than a week. The Apollo 11 mission took only eight days. A flyby around Mars would take...how long?

While I recognize that our technology to guide and perhaps propel spacecraft has improved over the years, a human's ability to endure prolonged missions has not. We'd be the weak link in such an endeavor and the most likely to break.

The bottom line, I think, is that it's a whole lot easier to imagine sending someone to Mars than it would be to actually do it. A whole lot cheaper, too. Perhaps we should be content to know that we alone can fashion ever more sophisticated robots to do the dirty work.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5714615 - 03/05/13 02:43 PM

Still... if there are two people prepared to try it, and a vehicle available capable of the journey, what the heck - I'd love to see it happen, and find out what the results were.

Someone has to be first, right?


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Mister T
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5714760 - 03/05/13 04:00 PM

I'll wait until they are successful with a monkey

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Joad
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5714883 - 03/05/13 04:55 PM

Well, no one is asking for our permission. I only wish that people would stop making momentous announcements until they've got something momentous on hand: like an actual rocket, an actual living module, an actual food inventory. You know, the little things.

I know, it can run on one of those cold fusion engines that the world has been assured already exist. Talk about minimalist space flight. I'm sure the organizers of this thing are already onto it.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Joad]
      #5715322 - 03/05/13 08:45 PM

Quote:

I know, it can run on one of those cold fusion engines that the world has been assured already exist. Talk about minimalist space flight. I'm sure the organizers of this thing are already onto it.




Hey, I know some people who have already been there via astral projection.
And here we are, wasting all this effort on going there physically. Tsk.


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David Knisely
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: neotesla]
      #5715673 - 03/06/13 12:23 AM

Quote:

One must remember that the first manned trips to the moon were flybys as well...




Not quite. The first manned trip to the vicinity of the moon was Apollo 8, and, unlike the proposed Tito mission, it entered lunar orbit, completing 10 lunar orbits before returning to Earth. Apollo 10 again entered lunar orbit and the lunar module on that mission did a practice approach to the lunar surface, descending to about 14.4 km (9 miles) before returning to rendezvous with the command module. This proposed Mars mission is only a flyby and not an orbital or landing attempt. To me, that is like driving in a VW Beetle from the east coast of the U.S. to the within sight of the easternmost end of the Grand Canyon and then immediately turning for home. Clear skies to you.


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Ravenous
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5715867 - 03/06/13 06:32 AM

Quote:

To me, that is like driving in a VW Beetle from the east coast of the U.S. to the within sight of the easternmost end of the Grand Canyon and then immediately turning for home.



Precisely. And let's face it the return would be the worst part.

I think many of us would be willing to risk the first eight months, all for a few days of fun watching Mars up close (though the closest approach might well be over the night side... not sure). However after that, having to endure eight more months to get back again would drive most of us to depression, no matter how many interesting solar observations, entry package monitorings etc. the controllers would schedule for us.


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Joad
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Ravenous]
      #5716189 - 03/06/13 11:12 AM

If this mission ever actually occurs, whoever makes it will make history, and that is motivation enough for many people, so if it really worked out as planned I'm quite certain that its participants would not be disappointed. My only question is simply whether a private group can really move from zero to liftoff in only five years, when that group has only just started raising money for the mission, much less started building the rocket and living module.

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ColoHank
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Joad]
      #5716277 - 03/06/13 12:12 PM

Quote:

If this mission ever actually occurs, whoever makes it will make history, and that is motivation enough for many people...




Like Amelia Earhart, they'll make history whether their mission is successful or not.


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sirchz
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Joad]
      #5716408 - 03/06/13 01:32 PM

Quote:

If this mission ever actually occurs, whoever makes it will make history, and that is motivation enough for many people, so if it really worked out as planned I'm quite certain that its participants would not be disappointed. My only question is simply whether a private group can really move from zero to liftoff in only five years, when that group has only just started raising money for the mission, much less started building the rocket and living module.




Yes, there are some big challenges. There's an article in New Scientist that lists 4 major hurdles. I think the 4th, reentry, is the least discussed.

1) Heavy lift vehicle - first demo is scheduled for later this year
2) Life Support System - prototype scheduled to be finished later this year.
3) Radiation - Well discussed.
4) Reentry

Quote:

Even then, the most dangerous part of the mission still lies ahead, thanks to number four on the to-do list. The spacecraft will be travelling so fast when it returns to Earth, as a result of its slingshot around Mars, that the plan is to spend 10 days in orbit to lose speed. After that, it will still be travelling at a record 14 kilometres per second when it hits Earth's atmosphere.

"That's a higher velocity than anything man-made has ever had during re-entry," says former NASA chief technologist Robert Braun, now at the Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta. The next-fastest was the Stardust mission, which collected samples from the tail of a comet and returned at 12.5 kilometres per second. "Fourteen kilometres a second sounds like just a little bit more, but the heating is actually significantly more," Braun says. NASA has agreed that its engineers will help design the re-entry path and the heat shields that will protect Inspiration's astronauts.




Here's a link to the article. It may require you to sign up for a free account with the magazine.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23238-solve-four-big-problems-to-get-pe...


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FirstSightModerator
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Joad]
      #5716497 - 03/06/13 02:09 PM

Quote:

If this mission ever actually occurs, whoever makes it will make history, and that is motivation enough for many people, so if it really worked out as planned I'm quite certain that its participants would not be disappointed.




The best historical analogies to the crew's situation on the extended-length Mars expedition are:
1) Magellan's pioneering voyage around the world, particularly the segment crossing the Pacific Ocean from leaving South America on November 28, 1520 until they reached their next landfall in the Marianas Islands on March 6th 1521. The crew is as helplessly isolated and remote in the early 16th-century mid-Pacific Ocean as the Mars expedition would be out in space, save for not having to provide a breathable atmosphere indefinitely.
2) The Powell expedition down the Green and Colorado Rivers from May 24, 1869 - August 29, 1869. Except for one spot in a gentle valley where the Uinta River joins the Green in early July where a long walk-out is possible (and one of Powell's original ten crew members takes the opportunity to leave the expedition)...the combination of extreme remoteness in distance and terrain from nearest settlements and confinement by the deep, steep, rugged canyon walls along the river course...effectively meant that once undertaken, the men were unavoidably committed to continuing to the end on what provisions they started with (opportunities to harvest fish and game along the way proved frustratingly scarce). On August 27th, three of the nine remaining crew members elect to abandon the expedition and attempt to walk out up a north-bank side-canyon (now called "Separation Canyon"), but apparently die in the attempt...they disappeared without a trace (except one of their names scrawled on a rock).

Granted, the Mars expedition would (unlike Magellan's or Powell's parties) have continuous modern electronic communications with ground-crews and civilization back on earth, albeit time-delayed several minutes by distance, whereas communication with anyone else outside their vessels was impossible crossing the Pacific or going down the Green/Colorado Rivers through canyon country. Nevertheless, the Mars expedition represents the same kind of irrevocable commitment these earlier expeditions represented for their respective crews. Ocean storms and powerful river rapids could at anytime be the undoing for Magelland and Powell, and likewise storms of radiation or high-speed collisions with particles could be the undoing for the Mars crew.

On the level of personal interaction among crew members, both the Magellan and Powell expeditions were periodically afflicted with storms of personality conflict, distrust, and dissent among crew members. In the Magellan expedition, there was an outright mutiny during the layover at the tip of South America which led to Magelland nearly being deposed as expedition captain, and one of the boats fleeing back home to Spain across the Atlantic rather than continuing into the Pacific. In the Powell case, it led three of the crew members to abandon the rest of the expedition and attempt to walk out (as mentioned above), fearing the sheer-walled deep canyon and formidable rapids just ahead portended the likelihood of encountering unrunnable rapids with no feasible portage around and no way to back out, or else starving due to rapidly dwindling, inadequate remaining rations before reaching open country at the end of the canyons. Ironically, only two days after these three members left, the remaining Powell party did successfully emerge from the end of the Grand Canyon at the Grand Wash Cliffs, near a Mormon settlement. As to the bonded (married?) two-person Mars crew, neither divorce nor mutiny nor abandonment of the mission would be feasible to even consider en route.

Edited by FirstSight (03/06/13 08:24 PM)


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StarWars
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5716906 - 03/06/13 05:27 PM

Quote:

I'll wait until they are successful with a monkey






NASA Sending Harvey the chimp to mars....

money well spent...


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SteveMushynsky
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5734532 - 03/15/13 05:22 PM

I see divorce in space... A dotted line drawn to bisect the habitat...

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SteveMushynsky
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: SteveMushynsky]
      #5734563 - 03/15/13 05:39 PM

Quote:

If this mission ever actually occurs, whoever makes it will make history, and that is motivation enough for many people



I nominate Donald Trump to be sent to Mars for the good of Mankind, and that he be denied reentry until he produces his original birth certificate and his full college records.

His selection would save half of the life support mass as he would fill the entire habitable volume all by himself.
Provision for venting excess gas would be needed - Perhaps use it for propulsion.


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Astrohat
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5856704 - 05/13/13 01:00 AM

And 5 years later, we will land on Mars.

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Astrohat
super member


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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5856710 - 05/13/13 01:02 AM

I hope they won't bump into of the Mariner spacecraft that is still orbiting Mars and scheduled to crash in a few years. Would the fly-by spacecraft have a radar to detect Mariner?

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CounterWeight
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Astrohat]
      #5860250 - 05/14/13 03:44 PM

I like the idea of sending folks and building a habitat, be interesting to see if they get to take a telescope? I really wish we'd chosen that direction for the Lunar program once we figured out that is wasn't made of cheese (well unless you are Wallace and Gromit).

According to my old books, it was supposed to be a base on the Moon first, with back and forth from the earth to the space station, and from the space station to the moon... then we were supposed to go everywhere else.


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llanitedave
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #5861091 - 05/14/13 10:22 PM

The Moon is a worthy destination on its own account, but I'm not sure if it's the best choice as a way station to somewhere else. I think one of the L-points would be a better transit hub.

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Kevdog
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5905268 - 06/06/13 04:56 AM

Quote:

To me, this is analogous to trying to fit a marathon car road trip from the east coast to the Grand Canyon and back in a long weeked, and only arriving right as it's getting dark and having to leave before sunrise in order to make it back in time for work Monday morning. The destination might otherwise be abundantly worth the expense, time, and effort required, but under the circumstances hardly worthwhile simply to be able to say "we've been there".




LOL, reminds me of when my wife (fiance at the time) and I drove to Niagra falls .... at 3am in the snow! So I've now heard the falls roaring over the side and felt the mist, but never seen them. (We were trying to renew her vistor's visa to the US as she was living in Canada at the time. That didn't work either!)

I hope they do it, just so that somebody does while I can still see it!


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Footbag
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Kevdog]
      #5906890 - 06/06/13 09:29 PM

All of the obstacles we need to overcome to go to Mars will be the same obstacles we'll have to overcome to go further.

I hope my son isn't "hoping" we'll visit mars when he's my age.


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David Knisely
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5907312 - 06/07/13 02:55 AM Attachment (9 downloads)

Nope, a trip to Mars and back has already been done...BY A CAT!

http://www.stevethecat.com/mars.htm

Watch the EDL for Steve on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RKMU0vskC0

Clear skies to you.


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WaterMasterAdministrator
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Reged: 02/17/10

Loc: Southeast Idaho, USA
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5907510 - 06/07/13 08:56 AM

I'm having a little trouble believing you took that photo, Dave.

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Skip
Starlifter Driver
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Reged: 01/23/08

Loc: Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: WaterMaster]
      #5907829 - 06/07/13 12:03 PM

Steve the Cat took it!

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Rick Woods
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: WaterMaster]
      #5907969 - 06/07/13 01:39 PM

Quote:

I'm having a little trouble believing you took that photo, Dave.




Dave is a strange guy and should be monitored closely. I hear he once put a box on the side of a building and almost knocked it down. Or was that Tesla? Ah, no matter... (Just don't ask for any pictures of Uranus).


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David Knisely
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: WaterMaster]
      #5908044 - 06/07/13 02:14 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

Quote:

I'm having a little trouble believing you took that photo, Dave.




The image is my own. I created it using the 3-D landscape rendering software VISTAPRO, which can render much of the landscape of Mars using a large digital elevation map set of data provided by the old Mars viewing software MARS EXPLORER. There are a few threads in the AstroArt forum where I have posed a whole series of them. Below is a shot from inside the western end of Coprates Chasma in the morning. Besides, Steve the Cat landed with the Phoenix lander, so he was too far away to see this feature . Clear skies to you.


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Skip
Starlifter Driver
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5909739 - 06/08/13 01:14 PM

David, I used to think your Martian renderings were a little overly dramatic and perhaps unrealistic. That is until I saw the photos taken by Curiosity of the gullies and crags of Mt. Sharp. Now I think you have it about right! And we have not even begun to see the details on Mt. Sharp!

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Rick Woods
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Skip]
      #5910463 - 06/08/13 09:34 PM

Quote:

David, I used to think your Martian renderings were a little overly dramatic and perhaps unrealistic. That is until I saw the photos taken by Curiosity of the gullies and crags of Mt. Sharp. Now I think you have it about right! And we have not even begun to see the details on Mt. Sharp!




Yeah! C'mon, David, show us what to expect there. Really! I have a couple of your images downloaded, and really enjoy them.


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David Knisely
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Skip]
      #5910749 - 06/09/13 01:31 AM Attachment (4 downloads)

Quote:

David, I used to think your Martian renderings were a little overly dramatic and perhaps unrealistic. That is until I saw the photos taken by Curiosity of the gullies and crags of Mt. Sharp. Now I think you have it about right! And we have not even begun to see the details on Mt. Sharp!




I usually chose very low sun angles and shadow enhancement in the images which make the surface appear rougher than it actually is. Here is the same region near local noon:


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David Knisely
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5910769 - 06/09/13 01:54 AM Attachment (7 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

David, I used to think your Martian renderings were a little overly dramatic and perhaps unrealistic. That is until I saw the photos taken by Curiosity of the gullies and crags of Mt. Sharp. Now I think you have it about right! And we have not even begun to see the details on Mt. Sharp!




Yeah! C'mon, David, show us what to expect there. Really! I have a couple of your images downloaded, and really enjoy them.




OK, here is a view of the entirety of Gale Crater (2x surface relief) taken from above a high ridge about 30 miles to the northwest of the crater's rim with the sun in the west (Mount Sharp is prominently shown in the middle of the crater):


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David Knisely
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5910791 - 06/09/13 02:36 AM Attachment (5 downloads)

Here is an image I rendered taken from a vantage point just above the southeast rim of Gale crater looking roughly northwest late in the morning under a high sun. Curiosity landed more or less behind most of the mountain.

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Rick Woods
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5910809 - 06/09/13 03:03 AM

You're the man, Dave!

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David Knisely
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5910823 - 06/09/13 03:26 AM Attachment (7 downloads)

Here is a rendered Vistapro image of Mt. Sharp from the north rim of Gale Crater in the late afternoon, with the approximate landing location of the Curiosity rover being marked by the small yellow "+" sign:

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Rick Woods
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5910840 - 06/09/13 03:49 AM

OK; but now you have ground truth as to the layered structure of Mt. Sharp; can you add that in?

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David Knisely
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5910878 - 06/09/13 05:01 AM

Quote:

OK; but now you have ground truth as to the layered structure of Mt. Sharp; can you add that in?




Not with Vistapro. The resolution of the digital elevation maps from Mars Global Surveyor's laser altimeter is simply too low here. There is another piece of more expensive landscape rendering software called TERRAGEN which is somewhat more powerful than Vistapro, but it has a considerably steeper learning curve:

http://planetside.co.uk/products/terragen2

However, the people running the HIRISE camera system on board Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter have done very very high resolution stereo imaging which shows detail down to a meter scale. Here is a flight through a part of Candor Chasma that looks fairly blank in my rendered images but is incredibly detailed in actuality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WsjeJiAR4E

Clear skies to you.


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Crow Haven
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/09/09

Loc: Oregon USA
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5911541 - 06/09/13 03:31 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

+1 for Terragen2! I used to use the first old version years ago. Terragen 2.5 is now available free and as a 7.65MB download (the ap takes up 28.2MB)its even easy for a dial-up connection. I've got it running on Win7 and with the limits of the free version as to image size and detail it works pretty quickly. The learning curve isn't bad at all and if you've used other 3D aps a lot of it is familiar. You can build entire worlds or use elevation data to create more "real" terrains. There are ways to texture your landscapes and create clouds...from there you can have lots of fun and add in anything or further modify the output render with other aps. Here is a first try, just playing with Terragen2, to get a dark mysterious world...
Try it!


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Rick Woods
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Crow Haven]
      #5912046 - 06/09/13 09:02 PM

It's Titan!

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Crow Haven
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/09/09

Loc: Oregon USA
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5913201 - 06/10/13 02:09 PM

That's what I thought it sort of looked like, too, as it was developing and I added in the surface liquid and created the reddish glowing atmosphere...

Terragen could create Mars landscapes with the elevation maps, and with some texture shaders I'm sure rock strata could be added as well as the erosion and water channels by working with displacement shaders. I used to use Vue5, another 3D modeller/generator, which could do this very well. With this Terragen2.5 free version I just used what the basic ap came with and I wasn't trying for a "photorealistic" effect, but you could get that if wanted. The full Terragen2 version and more RAM and HD space than I have on this laptop would be better. It's lots of fun though!


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WaterMasterAdministrator
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5913453 - 06/10/13 03:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm having a little trouble believing you took that photo, Dave.




The image is my own. I created it using the 3-D landscape rendering software VISTAPRO, which can render much of the landscape of Mars using a large digital elevation map set of data provided by the old Mars viewing software MARS EXPLORER. There are a few threads in the AstroArt forum where I have posed a whole series of them. Below is a shot from inside the western end of Coprates Chasma in the morning. Besides, Steve the Cat landed with the Phoenix lander, so he was too far away to see this feature . Clear skies to you.




Well, OK then.


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Classic8
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/12/06

Loc: Naperville, IL, USA
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #5915584 - 06/11/13 06:09 PM

They need better a propulsion system to cut down on the time to travel there and back. Until then it seems like a pipe dream or a particularly dangerous, almost suicidal activity.

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Rick Woods
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Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Classic8]
      #5915675 - 06/11/13 07:11 PM

That's what I think, too.

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