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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5831635 - 04/30/13 06:29 AM

Why "They" are not here yet??

3 words:

The Prime Directive


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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5831747 - 04/30/13 08:16 AM

Quote:

Why "They" are not here yet??

3 words:

The Prime Directive




No, that's why "We" and not there yet.

/Ira


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Jarad
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5831803 - 04/30/13 08:59 AM

Quote:

Perhaps "They" will be wearing spacesuits filled with water instead of some exotic atmosphere!

/Ira




Well, dolphins make the best space pilots in David Brin's Uplift universe... They are used to navigating in 3 dimensions.

Jarad


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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5831908 - 04/30/13 10:08 AM

more accurately it is why we don't know that they are already here.

basically their cooler "heads" (intelligence containing appendages) have convinced the more reactionary factions to hold off from dousing this petrie dish we call a planet, with intergalactic bleach and starting over.

they are holding out that whales or dolphins might amount to something that the human race has fallen woefully short of...


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Jarad]
      #5832026 - 04/30/13 11:17 AM

I wonder about the possibility of a 'machine', or a computer program, capable of testing a subject for self-consciousness. We are looking for an algorithm that can answer true or false, 'the test subject is selfconscious' within a finite runtime .
Either the program would not return with 100% certainty within a finite time, or it would fall into 'If TRUE then FAlSE' paradoxical statements.
The machine, or the test algorithm, would have to be able to run reflexively, so not only asking questions like: "who are you?", "Are you dead?" (i.e., a non-alive computer), "Are you self conscious?", but also: "who am i?", "Am i dead?", "Am i self conscious?".
I doubt a dead and non self conscious machine can run very long this sort of questions without falling into infinite loops, so i personnaly don't think a non self conscious entity can decide if a test subject, or itself, is selfconscious.


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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: dickbill]
      #5832590 - 04/30/13 03:30 PM

Do you guys know that the human brain uses holoistic programming to identify and process information?

For example, patients have had half there brain removed and yet swtill their family and friends sense that they are still the same person. In fact, it takes a skilled psychologist to detect changes in a person despite having lost this much physical brain tissue. (In severe epileptics sometimes this drastic surgery, termed a heminectomy, is a last resort surgery).

What this tells us is that the brain sotres and processes bits of information from physical locations all over the brain. It assembles these 'bits' into a holographic representation that arises in (or of?) our conciousness.

Thus aspects of your uncles nose (color, shape, texture, level of snot) is stored in repeated locations around the brain and when the nose comes into vies you process these bits until the holographic image of this paticular nose is recognized.

Most computers today do not process information this way. They are too linear. The rbain itself doesn't process information in a linear fashion very fast (try doing math in your head). But it can process and sort through (for pertinence) billions of bits of information simultaneously.

AI will emerge when systems taht can parrellel process information become very dense and very efficient.

Saying that, I don't see that point very far off. Parrell processing is just now in its infancy. Programs that can modify themselves are also just now in their infancy.


Pesse (Baby gonna grow up soon) Mist


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5832878 - 04/30/13 05:52 PM

Maybe, but neural networks are slow compared to modern cpu. It might be a contingency of carbon-based life that silicon doesn't suffer. CPUs now easily need more than 100 watts with huge amount of heat wasted while our brains run about 20 watts of power for one fifth of the total body consumption and it's probably very optimized.
Things are different and copying the brain might not be the best solution for a computer. Well, self learning is certainly a pre-requisite towards self consciousness, i agree with that.
To go back to a putative selfconsciousness algorithm, i don't think that an 'external' test ("Are YOU self aware?") is even relevant. Being self-aware is something that you have to decide for yourself, be it a human of a computer, and it doesn't matter what says the other human or computer about it. Learning to answer "Am I self-aware?" is going to be difficult to program though. But is it only by increasing the computing power that such question can be answered?


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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: dickbill]
      #5833097 - 04/30/13 07:53 PM

Just 20 watts? My but aren't we all just dim bulbs.

/Ira


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5833365 - 04/30/13 10:39 PM

Heck no, we're energy stars!

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Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5833503 - 05/01/13 12:09 AM

I am, therefore I am.

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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5833686 - 05/01/13 05:40 AM

Finally a definitive answer will be forthcoming:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/30/1205662/-Former-lawmakers-to-hear-te...

who better than former lawmakers to decide this important issue


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scopethis
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/30/08

Loc: Kingman, Ks
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5833955 - 05/01/13 09:48 AM

and Fox News will alert the public of the findings....hey, I've still got my copy of Project Blue Book, will that help?

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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5833972 - 05/01/13 10:00 AM

Well, 'just 20 watts', yes but each watt earned for the brain will cost you an expensive time spent looking for food. We need 2400 kcal of food already. Try to go in survival mode in the wild and see if you can actually gather 2400 kcal of food/day on a regular basis and how much time and energy you must deduct. Some of my acquaintances tried and said that after a while, they were starving, and the only thing they could think about was food. Of course, forget a vegetarian diet, well, i guess a vegetarian diet would fill a 2400kcal bill IF you were looking for food all day long, but what's the point to feed a brain if you don't have any time to use it? same for very slow to digest raw meat (there are some adepts of this diet). Our brain is definitively designed with meat and fire in mind.

I got the number from there:
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JacquelineLing.shtml


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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: dickbill]
      #5834035 - 05/01/13 10:33 AM

Quote:

Maybe, but neural networks are slow compared to modern cpu.




If the brain takes 1 second per bit of information accesse, but can simultaneously access 1 billion bits of information, that is much more efficient than a cpu that can linearly access 1 billion bits of information in one second.

Sort of like doing a jigsaw puzzle by checking all pieces against all other pieces as opposed to checking one piece against one other piece one step at a time....

Pesse (Uncles nose hair black & long? Check! Snot predominantly on the right side? Check! Pimple dead center? Check!) Mist


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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: dickbill]
      #5834066 - 05/01/13 10:47 AM

Quote:

Well, 'just 20 watts', yes but each watt earned for the brain will cost you an expensive time spent looking for food. We need 2400 kcal of food already. Try to go in survival mode in the wild and see if you can actually gather 2400 kcal of food/day on a regular basis and how much time and energy you must deduct. Some of my acquaintances tried and said that after a while, they were starving, and the only thing they could think about was food. Of course, forget a vegetarian diet, well, i guess a vegetarian diet would fill a 2400kcal bill IF you were looking for food all day long, but what's the point to feed a brain if you don't have any time to use it? same for very slow to digest raw meat (there are some adepts of this diet). Our brain is definitively designed with meat and fire in mind.

I got the number from there:
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JacquelineLing.shtml




That's why civilization was never developed by hunter-gatherer societies.

/Ira


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5834076 - 05/01/13 10:53 AM

Skilled hunter-gatherers never had to spend all that much time searching for food. They had plenty of leisure. Sometimes, unfortunately, there was simply no food to be had. Hunter-gatherer lifestyles aren't good at storing food for lean times.

Of course, if there's plenty of food available, what good is civilization anyway? Agriculture was a good invention for predictable shortages, but the rest of history has been the tale of how we've dealt with the unforeseen consequences of that invention.


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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5834119 - 05/01/13 11:14 AM

Quote:

Of course, if there's plenty of food available, what good is civilization anyway? Agriculture was a good invention for predictable shortages, but the rest of history has been the tale of how we've dealt with the unforeseen consequences of that invention.




Barbarians didn't bother with growing stuff and all that labor intensive behavior. Far easier to party all summer and raid for what you need in the Fall.

Pesse (And people thought the tax year ending in December was a coincidence? lol) Mist


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shawnhar
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5834362 - 05/01/13 01:08 PM

Quote:

Skilled hunter-gatherers never had to spend all that much time searching for food. They had plenty of leisure. Sometimes, unfortunately, there was simply no food to be had. Hunter-gatherer lifestyles aren't good at storing food for lean times.

Of course, if there's plenty of food available, what good is civilization anyway? Agriculture was a good invention for predictable shortages, but the rest of history has been the tale of how we've dealt with the unforeseen consequences of that invention.




Word!


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Pedestal
Post Laureate
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Reged: 03/11/06

Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5835366 - 05/01/13 10:44 PM

Quote:

Finally a definitive answer will be forthcoming:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/30/1205662/-Former-lawmakers-to-hear-te...

who better than former lawmakers to decide this important issue




For 20 grand, I'd sit and listen to nonsense for a week. I might could even get excited about it. Looks like former or not, they still like money.

And I believe we will invent a machine civilization-probably leading to our ultimate demise, long before ET finds us. Or vice-versa!


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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: StarWars]
      #5838010 - 05/03/13 10:29 AM

Wait! Wait!! "They" are here says US congressman, and the government is covering it up!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/power-players-abc-news/former-sen-mike-gravel-say...

/Ira


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