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llanitedave
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Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5897009 - 06/01/13 11:26 PM

Quote:


In all the movies, our most powerful weapons are ineffective against their force shields.




But They will be helpless against Slim Whitman's yodeling.

Quote:


And anyway, maybe they like I Love Lucy.




If they are truly a civilized race, of course they will.


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llanitedave
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5897025 - 06/01/13 11:34 PM

Quote:


But, to address what Dave said - if the chances are so extremely remote that anyone will listen or respond, then why do it at all? Surely that instrument time is better served for a purpose that will yield results? We come back to hubris. Let's do it because we can and let's ignore all the valid concerns raised by our peers.






I've seen concerns raised, but not necessarily valid ones. Personally, I think it's a waste of time -- If the ET's are not highly advanced, they'll never get the signals. If they ARE highly advanced, they already know more about us than we do. Either way, there's no tangible benefit that I can see to either them or us.

As for hubris, or arrogance... It's really just the human desire for our voices to be heard. It's no different than starting a blog in the hopes that someone -- anyone -- will read it. Or posting on a web forum. Or displaying your painting. Or sending a first novel to a publisher. Call it what you like, it's people being people, and I can think of many worse things that could be done with those resources.


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llanitedave
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5897036 - 06/01/13 11:37 PM

Quote:

I think this short video clearly explains my position :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI




In which case, you made a big mistake posting here.

"Mr. Gilmer, will you please stand up?"


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roamer
sage
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Reged: 03/21/10

Loc: Michigan
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5897603 - 06/02/13 10:50 AM

I think it is very unwise to do so. Our civilization needs time to develop yet. I think this kinda thing actually should be not be allowed.

Who was it that brought up the Native American - European settler analogy?


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PhilCo126
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/14/05

Loc: coastline of Belgium
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: roamer]
      #5897753 - 06/02/13 12:38 PM

Messaging to Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence
The first active SETI message was sent in 1974 towards globular star cluster Messier 13 using the 300 m Arecibo radio dish on Puerto Rico:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message

Sending messages to stars with known exo-planets has been done several times using the 70 m Yevpatoria radio telescope in Ukraine (1999 + 2001 + 2003 + 2008):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevpatoria_RT-70_radio_telescope

The target exoplanet systems of these latter messages are on average 40 light years away, so any possible answer could be received in a human's life time


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5897783 - 06/02/13 12:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:


In all the movies, our most powerful weapons are ineffective against their force shields.




But They will be helpless against Slim Whitman's yodeling.

Quote:


And anyway, maybe they like I Love Lucy.




If they are truly a civilized race, of course they will.




Good points!
You are wise, Grasshopper.


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scopethis
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Reged: 05/30/08

Loc: Kingman, Ks
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5898280 - 06/02/13 06:03 PM

Voyager carries a plaque telling everyone where we are...

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TL2101
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/17/10

Loc: Concord, CA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: scopethis]
      #5898368 - 06/02/13 07:05 PM

I Love Lucy drew them in but Jerry Springer sent them running for the stars.

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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: TL2101]
      #5898569 - 06/02/13 09:53 PM

Or the sewers...

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shawnhar
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Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: TL2101]
      #5898644 - 06/02/13 10:41 PM

Wow, kinda surprised at all the caveman paranoid comments. Watch out! Them aliens gonna getcha!
You take much more risk every time you eat something more solid than broth, there are folks that choke to death on their own food, happens all the time, I think the odds are, more chance of that then aliens comin to get ya!
One other thing, I'm kinda angry people don't just shut up and let them transmit, for better or worse they want to do it, have at it. What right do you have to tell them they shouldn't/can't? There was no open discussion about breaking the sound barrier, going to the moon, etc... People who drone on about the possibilities of negative outcomes need to shut up and get out of the way of those actually doing.
Even if the baddies do want to come and get us, I'll be long dead by the time they get here AND it will be the best thing to ever happen to humans. For one, the population needs to be thinned back by a few BILLION anyway, and the crime rate would drop to almost nothing. And just think how dark the skies would be once they knocked out all the power! Bring on the armada!


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CounterWeight
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Palo alto, CA.
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5898792 - 06/03/13 12:07 AM

Reminds me of how human babies get attention, they start screaming...

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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #5899074 - 06/03/13 06:24 AM

once again we can turn to Science for answers that put a unemotional perspective on the situation:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/47/


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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
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Reged: 04/07/05

Loc: Oort Cloud 9
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5899327 - 06/03/13 10:21 AM

The point is, why take a risk when the chance of a positive payoff is zero or next to zero? This makes no sense at all. It is a waste of instrument time. Besides, they have NO mandate to do this on the behalf of the entire planet. The arrogance of it all is striking.

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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
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Reged: 04/07/05

Loc: Oort Cloud 9
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899329 - 06/03/13 10:23 AM

Besides, the carry the caveman analogy :

I bet the neanderthals are sorry they lit that first signal fire.


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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 07/22/03

Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899396 - 06/03/13 11:05 AM

Quote:

I think this short video clearly explains my position :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI






I would love to have a example of greater than N=1. But, i do tend to think we should not intentionally attempt to attract attention until if and when we get our act together.
Gotten past our own psuedospeciation problems, the obvious problems with allocation of services and resources, etc. etc. We would then be in a mature position to evaluate such activity and its potential results.

Assuming for the sake of conversation, that "life" is "there" as here, driven by similar dynamics, it may be competive on the inter-stellar scale also. If you do not have to get your act together before branching out, it could be a rough neighborhood.

All is speculation, as long as N=1.
but looking at ourselves, i sure as heck would not want to attact a tech advanced version of us.


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899399 - 06/03/13 11:08 AM

Quote:

The point is, why take a risk when the chance of a positive payoff is zero or next to zero? This makes no sense at all. It is a waste of instrument time. Besides, they have NO mandate to do this on the behalf of the entire planet. The arrogance of it all is striking.




What risk? Arguably, you're facing a far greater risk from some random child now being born in another state: He could grow up and become a drunk driver on your highway.

As for wasting time, lots of people think that we're doing that whenever we break out our little telescopes. The chances of us discovering anything scientifically new from gazing at M13 are pretty much nil. At least our instruments aren't publically paid for.

In that vein, isn't SETI privately funded? If so, they can pretty much do what they want. You can't show that there's any real risk to us from them doing that. And if performing some random vanishingly small risk on private funding needs a global societal mandate, I fear for my next family vacation.


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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
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Reged: 04/07/05

Loc: Oort Cloud 9
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5899582 - 06/03/13 12:42 PM

Quote:


What risk? Arguably, you're facing a far greater risk from some random child now being born in another state: He could grow up and become a drunk driver on your highway.

As for wasting time, lots of people think that we're doing that whenever we break out our little telescopes. The chances of us discovering anything scientifically new from gazing at M13 are pretty much nil. At least our instruments aren't publically paid for.

In that vein, isn't SETI privately funded? If so, they can pretty much do what they want. You can't show that there's any real risk to us from them doing that. And if performing some random vanishingly small risk on private funding needs a global societal mandate, I fear for my next family vacation.





Darn it, Dave, get with the program and agree with me!

Quote:


What risk? Arguably, you're facing a far greater risk from some random child now being born in another state: He could grow up and become a drunk driver on your highway.





As an individual, perhaps. But that same kid probably won't grow up and attract the attention of the Vogons.

Quote:


As for wasting time, lots of people think that we're doing that whenever we break out our little telescopes. The chances of us discovering anything scientifically new from gazing at M13 are pretty much nil. At least our instruments aren't publically paid for.





Many of us don't observe for science. We observe for fun. I don't think SETI is doing this for fun.

Quote:


In that vein, isn't SETI privately funded? If so, they can pretty much do what they want. You can't show that there's any real risk to us from them doing that. And if performing some random vanishingly small risk on private funding needs a global societal mandate, I fear for my next family vacation.





Your family vacation is not going to bring an Ur-Quan invasion fleet to Sol.

As was mentioned previously, this has been done before and it yielded zero results. Why do it again?

I agree that the "risk" is next to zero. But, the potential consequences are global and could possibly result in our extinction or enslavement. Is it really worth the risk, no matter how small it might be?

Again, it's human arrogance. We are not that interesting. We have little, if anything, to offer the cosmos - unless the cosmos is sorely lacking in selfishness, warfare, and bigotry.

We should get our own house in order before throwing ourselves a galactic Sweet-16 party and inviting a bunch of guests we know nothing about.

I happen to have an open mind about some things. I believe there is life out there somewhere. And I think there is a chance that intelligent and/or advanced life is out there somewhere. Maybe I have read too much science fiction (hence my original link from David Brin), but much of science fiction eventually becomes science reality. The fact that Mr. Brin is against this gives me some food for thought. He is involved in the SETI program. He is a scientist. And he is a very intelligent and rational man. I didn't give it a moment's thought until I read his essay outlining his objections. I'm not saying he is smarter than any of us (although he is surely smarter than me), but he has an informed perspective on this issue.

If this act of folly is so harmless and free of risk, then why is it not up for discussion or debate? What is the harm in intelligently discussing this issue in an open scientific forum? Why not invite peer review of this idea? Again, it's not so much what they plan to do, it's how they plan to do it - they will do it regardless of what objections are raised and they refuse to even discuss it. That screams arrogance and hubris. Yes, there's that hubris again.


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seryddwr
Innocent Bystander
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Reged: 02/19/10

Loc: La-la land.
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899670 - 06/03/13 01:16 PM

Conversely, IF they are already aware of us, they might know how decadent and vile some parts of our society are and thus wouldn't want to have anything to do with us.

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Joad
Wordsmith
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Reged: 03/22/05

Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899690 - 06/03/13 01:28 PM

There are two issues involved here, and that is why each side in the discussion is correct, and is also why the two arguments are running past each other.

The first issue is existential. That is, it pertains to the question of whether or not technologically advanced life exists elsewhere in the cosmos. The probability is that it does, but that it also exists so far away from earth that there is only a tiny chance that any message of ours could be intercepted by it at all, or that, if it is intercepted, that there could be any visits to earth stimulated by it for many many years. So the existential risk involved here is indeed minimal.

But there is a second issue that is not at all the same. This one belongs to that very large category that could be called "the ethics of scientific research." From the atomic bomb to efforts to clone or even create life, and so on and so forth, individual scientific research projects have the potential to affect the entire globe. The ethics of such activities are very far from being formulated (medical ethics is an especially large area of study), but it is still a valid question to ask whether the activities of the few should be allowed to affect the lives of the many. In this regard, since those who are carrying out this SETI plan wouldn't be doing so if they didn't think that there was some chance of their messages reaching somebody elsewhere, we are perfectly justified in considering the risks because those risks involve us all. (As for the motivations: I think these SETI guys, after years of detecting nothing, are getting impatient and are hoping to jump start the ET communication project.) Unfortunately, with the field of scientific ethics being so uncertain and unauthoritative, we have no institutions or laws to regulate such private behavior.


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Glassthrower
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Joad]
      #5899730 - 06/03/13 01:46 PM

Quote:


But there is a second issue that is not at all the same. This one belongs to that very large category that could be called "the ethics of scientific research." From the atomic bomb to efforts to clone or even create life, and so on and so forth, individual scientific research projects have the potential to affect the entire globe. The ethics of such activities are very far from being formulated (medical ethics is an especially large area of study), but it is still a valid question to ask whether the activities of the few should be allowed to affect the lives of the many. In this regard, since those who are carrying out this SETI plan wouldn't be doing so if they didn't think that there was some chance of their messages reaching somebody elsewhere, we are perfectly justified in considering the risks because those risks involve us all. (As for the motivations: I think these SETI guys, after years of detecting nothing, are getting impatient and are hoping to jump start the ET communication project.) Unfortunately, with the field of scientific ethics being so uncertain and unauthoritative, we have no institutions or laws to regulate such private behavior.





Bingo! Look at genetically-modified foods for an example of this. Despite careful controls, these modified plants have spread into the wild. Who knows what the eventual consequences will be?

It's amazing how much of humanity has no concept of prudence when it comes to some things.


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