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shawnhar
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Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899883 - 06/03/13 02:41 PM

Everything we do as a species affects us and the enviornment, that started about 10,000 years ago with the agricultural revolution, when we started controlling our enviornment instead of letting nature provide. Beaming signals into space is natural for us, just like daming the rivers and growing our food in the flood plains of the Mississippi, sure, it might screw something up but we got things to do, lol.

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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 07/22/03

Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5899921 - 06/03/13 02:56 PM

Quote:

Everything we do as a species affects us and the enviornment, that started about 10,000 years ago with the agricultural revolution, ...




Speaking of the beginning of agriculture...


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Rudra
super member


Reged: 07/02/10

Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: moynihan]
      #5900139 - 06/03/13 04:56 PM

Biggest danger we face from aliens is them coming to know about our concepts and ideas of dark matter and dark energy which will have them rolling in laughter...

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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5900145 - 06/03/13 04:58 PM

SOFL! (slithering on the floor laughing)

-drl


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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 07/22/03

Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5900163 - 06/03/13 05:09 PM

Quote:

Biggest danger we face from aliens is them coming to know about our concepts and ideas of dark matter and dark energy which will have them rolling in laughter...




Our concepts and ideas


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Pess
(Title)
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Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5900269 - 06/03/13 06:02 PM

Quote:

Biggest danger we face from aliens is them coming to know about our concepts and ideas of dark matter and dark energy which will have them rolling in laughter...




Pesse (True. Dark Energy is just our current way of marking stellar maps with the notation, "There be Dragons Here!') Mist


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5900619 - 06/03/13 09:34 PM

Quote:

Wow, kinda surprised at all the caveman paranoid comments. Watch out! Them aliens gonna getcha!
You take much more risk every time you eat something more solid than broth, there are folks that choke to death on their own food, happens all the time, I think the odds are, more chance of that then aliens comin to get ya!
One other thing, I'm kinda angry people don't just shut up and let them transmit, for better or worse they want to do it, have at it. What right do you have to tell them they shouldn't/can't?




It seems to me that while the chances of anything happening are remote, if we did attract the attention of a superior species, the results could well be catastrophic and final for all of us. This is nothing to be done lightly. If it backfires, it's not just on them, it's on us too. So far, we don't see any of them doing anything so rash and stupid.
Maybe the reason we haven't heard anything from out there is that they're all smarter than we are (or at least smarter than the guys wanting to sent the signal).

We are not ready to encounter an alien race. We can't even relate peacefully to our own. An Earth united in spirit, if not in culture and government, might be mature enough to send a consistant message to an alien civilization. At present, we're no better than a collection of herds of apes, running around scratching ourselves and fighting with the neighboring herds.

In my working career, I learned not to call the meeting until I had my presentation ready.


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5900641 - 06/03/13 09:45 PM

Quote:

In that vein, isn't SETI privately funded? If so, they can pretty much do what they want.




True. And this is why none of this discussion really matters. They're going to do what they want, a right that is a cherished part of the lifestyle that will end when the Klingons come swooping down.

Quote:

You can't show that there's any real risk to us from them doing that.




And you can't show there's not a staggering, horrendous risk.
Not to say that we should stay cowering and hiding in the dark; only that we should at least be prepared to contact someone who could travel here to meet us. First impressions, you know...


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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 07/22/03

Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5900656 - 06/03/13 09:59 PM

Quote:

At present, we're no better than a collection of herds of apes, running around scratching ourselves and fighting with the neighboring herds.




Pretty much sums it up.


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5900809 - 06/03/13 11:25 PM

Quote:


And you can't show there's not a staggering, horrendous risk.





I think that lack of risk has already been shown. If the beings in question are advanced enough to detect and interpret those signals, then they are advanced enough to already have known about us. We won't be telling them anything they don't already know.

If they didn't come to eat us the minute they discovered our oxygen-rich atmosphere, then the risk of them coming to eat our transmitters is the opposite of staggering and horrendous.


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Rick Woods
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Reged: 01/27/05

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5901055 - 06/04/13 02:18 AM

Or they may already be on their way...

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TL2101
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/17/10

Loc: Concord, CA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5901078 - 06/04/13 02:40 AM

Someone once told me they found the link between the ape and civilized man and it is us.

Hope we get it together before they arrive.


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shawnhar
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Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: TL2101]
      #5901251 - 06/04/13 08:10 AM

The aliens are not evil, I promise.
There are no evil aliens, the only way we would consider them "bad" aliens is if they came and did not recognize us as life forms.
There is no risk of invasion, or being eaten, wiped out, blah, blah, blah. The are not going to hurl rocks at us from the Moon or camp on Mars while they decide the fate of Earth.
Stop being influenced by science fiction and stop thinking they would act like us.


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mich_al
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/10/09

Loc: Rural central lower Michigan ...
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: moynihan]
      #5901555 - 06/04/13 11:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

At present, we're no better than a collection of herds of apes, running around scratching ourselves and fighting with the neighboring herds.




Pretty much sums it up.





Yea, except that we're advanced enought to go off and fight with distant herds too.


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dyslexic nam
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Reged: 01/28/08

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5901681 - 06/04/13 12:25 PM

Quote:

The aliens are not evil, I promise.
There are no evil aliens, the only way we would consider them "bad" aliens is if they came and did not recognize us as life forms.
There is no risk of invasion, or being eaten, wiped out, blah, blah, blah. The are not going to hurl rocks at us from the Moon or camp on Mars while they decide the fate of Earth.




With all due respect, and setting aside the hyperbole, the point behind these claims is dubious at best. Assuming an alien race even has a concept of moral behaviour, there is absolutely no way to guarantee that they would apply that concept to us. In the same way that many people don't extend much practical moral consideration to animals (ie. their delight at eating bacon is deemed to override a pig's delight at continued existence), it is entirely possible that a more advanced alien species could simply not extend any kind of ethical consideration to their actions vis-a-vis humans. Based on the events of human history, I am not sure that our technological evolution has gone hand in hand with our growth in beneficence - thus I see no reason to assume that technologically gifted aliens would necessarily be beings that cared about the preservation of the human (and other Earthly) species.

The problem in trying to predict alien behaviour is that we are working from a sample of 0 - and if we use human behaviour in relation to other species as a comparator, then your claims of safety ring a bit hollow. How can you possibly guarantee that aliens wouldn't plunder our mineral resources with no more concern for us than that which we extend to insects in a farmers field? I don't think you can.

I am not claiming that any of this is probable, but to resolutely claim that there is no danger in trying to wave down interstellar passers-by seems to be either naive or disingenuous.


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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
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Reged: 04/07/05

Loc: Oort Cloud 9
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5901805 - 06/04/13 01:20 PM

Quote:


The problem in trying to predict alien behaviour is that we are working from a sample of 0 - and if we use human behaviour in relation to other species as a comparator, then your claims of safety ring a bit hollow. How can you possibly guarantee that aliens wouldn't plunder our mineral resources with no more concern for us than that which we extend to insects in a farmers field? I don't think you can.





Yes, this is one of my objections to this active SETI idea. It is not necessarily my primary one, but it's the easiest to illustrate in colorful science-fiction terms.

There seems to be two schools of thought regarding the nature of alien species (amongst those who agree that aliens are possible) :

1) aliens may be hostile or insensitive. They might dominate or eradicate us, with or without the express intention of doing so. Think small indigenous tribes versus larger civilized governments, for an Earthly example. In a nutshell, our species engages in violence to settle some disputes and we recklessly exploit resources with no long-term vision. Therefore, we expect aliens might behave in this manner also. Premature contact with an advanced species may be hazardous in this school of thought.

2) The second school of thought adheres to a model where advanced species are necessarily beneficent because the violent species destroy themselves (and each other) before they can master powerful technologies or advanced techniques of manipulating what we call the laws of physics. Therefore, if an alien species can travel faster than light and hop between galaxies (or dimensions) using means that seem fantastical to us, they would not be violent or "evil" because they would not be extant now if they had these tendencies. The atomic bomb is a good example of this here on Earth. We have unlocked a technology that can end all life on Earth - how we will use this capability? It could destroy us, or it could be one step on a long road of growth for an advanced species.

Maybe I am jaded, but I tend to align myself with the first school.

I do recognize an inherent problem with my point of view and the first school of thought that I adhere to - this kind of thinking can lead to seeing rats on the surface of Mars, or faces, or the Man in the Moon. Recently we had people seeing a rat (looked like a chipmunk to me) in a photo of rocks on the surface of Mars. There are probably some tin-foil hat types who now believe Mars is infested with alien rodents. I don't want to be that guy with the tinfoil hat who is worried about a Borg cube showing up next week.


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shawnhar
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5901813 - 06/04/13 01:23 PM

It's simple logic. (to me)
If they have to obey the laws of physics like we do, the energy used to "get us" far outweighs any resource benefit to them.
If they have figured out a way around the limitation of faster than light travel, there is no way they would feel threatend by us, and with that kind of tech, what would be the need to harm us or pillage our resources?


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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
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Reged: 04/07/05

Loc: Oort Cloud 9
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5901833 - 06/04/13 01:36 PM

Quote:


It's simple logic. (to me)
If they have to obey the laws of physics like we do, the energy used to "get us" far outweighs any resource benefit to them.
If they have figured out a way around the limitation of faster than light travel, there is no way they would feel threatend by us, and with that kind of tech, what would be the need to harm us or pillage our resources?





Shawn, this is why I am conflicted and this is why I posted here about this - to hear other perspectives. I cannot disagree with what you say. Your point is view is very pragmatic and it is shared by many other people. This is a valid position that bears serious consideration.

The scientists involved in making this decision are apparently not interested in bringing in their peers and doing exactly what we are doing now - discussing this. I think it's reasonable to assume that they have discussed this amongst themselves and have dismissed viewpoints contrary to their desired course of action. This to me is just as worrisome as the remote possibility of attracting predatory alien species.


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dyslexic nam
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Reged: 01/28/08

Loc: PEI, Canada
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5901939 - 06/04/13 02:35 PM

Quote:

It's simple logic. (to me)
If they have to obey the laws of physics like we do, the energy used to "get us" far outweighs any resource benefit to them.
If they have figured out a way around the limitation of faster than light travel, there is no way they would feel threatend by us, and with that kind of tech, what would be the need to harm us or pillage our resources?




I had a response post typed up and then my IPad rebooted. Grrr.

Quick version - with all the possibilities out there,I find it hard to accept that the only logical possibility for visitation is a species that poses no threat, as a necessary corollary to the fact that they are advanced enough to have mastered FTL travel. We do all sorts of things to all sorts of species and it isn't due any sense of threat or need. We exploit other species and resources because it is convenient or to feed our appetites, despite the fact that we are far more technologically advanced than any other species.


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shawnhar
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Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5902042 - 06/04/13 03:34 PM

I think we can make some reasonable assumtions about the disposition of potential visitors.
They are a collective, groups working together. The level of cooperation required to travel through space must be tremendous. The decision to come here will be a collective one. Jo shmo alien is not going to decide on his own to vaprorize us.
They will come from far away, it's a long distance endeavor. They must perceive the journey as a benefit. There are no resources we have here that they would not have passed along the way. Even if they do have FTL, the group will have to mull over the cost to benifit of making the journey and decide who's going to go, what they will bring, how long it will take, if they can get back, a thousand logistics...
They will not be able to eat anything here or breathe our atmosphere.
They will recognize our dominance over the planet, we will not be viewed as insects or cattle, c'mon, we split the atom and throw stuff into space on a regular basis, wer'e not that primitive.
Do those not seem like reasonable assumptions?


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