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Mike7Mak
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 12/07/11

Loc: New York
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: fodderwing]
      #5908450 - 06/07/13 05:47 PM

Quote:

If aliens detect us and are interested lets hope they can travel faster than light.



That's one of the scariest things about this. The notion that aliens will save us from ourselves. That humans are somehow apart from, and a scourge on, the natural order. That no matter what, aliens couldn't possibly be any worse than us because to get here they'd have to be more advanced. That goes a long way to explaining the hubris of those who think shouting in the jungle is a good idea, regardless of what anyone else around the campfire thinks.

There is simply no way to figure the odds of a good or bad outcome. All we know for sure is it could be either, or no outcome at all. But given that a bad outcome IS possible, and it's likely to be hundreds, if not thousands of years before it manifests, what point is there setting that potential in motion now?

I get that SETI folks are bored with no results from listening. But that too falls on the side of keep listening and stay quiet. There could be a very good reason why no one else out there is shouting in the dark.


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5909626 - 06/08/13 11:53 AM

Quote:


I don't think Solar has the energy density necessary to really make it anything more than a niche energy source.





Solar has plenty of energy density. It's a matter of infrastructure, manufacturing cost, and storage. If the technology deficit of the latter is ever overcome, the first two will take care of themselves rather quickly.

It will then be fusion that's the niche source, but that will still be required in order to get us further than the asteroid belt.


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Classic8
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/12/06

Loc: Naperville, IL, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5915853 - 06/11/13 09:16 PM

As long as we're speculating, I wonder if any aliens out there have followed the same path - knowing more about science, technology and the universe than they do about themselves. We can land on the moon, send spacecraft whizzing by planets a billion miles away, and build nuclear bombs, but we don't know how to keep a person from degenerating into a ruthless killer, stop crime, depression, poverty, or hunger. They may very well have the same problems we do, even with much more advanced technology.

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Rick Woods
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Classic8]
      #5915965 - 06/11/13 10:20 PM

That sounds very possible to me. And it may explain why we're not hearing anything; either they're too savvy to advertise, or they've reached that level of technological advancement (as we have) where they could destroy themselves (as we could) because that advancement far outstripped their wisdom and maturity (as ours has).

Maybe scientific advancement is a dead-end path for most races.

(And, we can't land on the Moon any more. Not people, anyway. Ancient history, that.)


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InterStellarGuy
professor emeritus
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Reged: 06/25/08

Loc: Overland Park, KS
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Classic8]
      #5916128 - 06/12/13 12:02 AM

Anyone watch Falling Skies?

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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5916225 - 06/12/13 01:38 AM

Quote:


Maybe scientific advancement is a dead-end path for most races.





No, it's just that technology is a lot easier than self-knowledge. You can do both with science, but science takes time, patience, and a willingness to set aside comforting myths. When we as a society are willing to spend the time and embrace the self-honesty necessary, we'll learn a whole lot about ourselves.


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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5916366 - 06/12/13 05:36 AM

And now...here it is...SETI - "Spam to Extraterrestrial Intelligence"
You get one message of your choice, free; the next cost money to help support the project.

My first message will be: "eat me!" -

http://www.universetoday.com/102844/lone-signal-first-continous-message-beaco...

/Ira


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Rudra
super member


Reged: 07/02/10

Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Ira]
      #5917338 - 06/12/13 04:53 PM

Quote:

And now...here it is...SETI - "Spam to Extraterrestrial Intelligence"
You get one message of your choice, free; the next cost money to help support the project.

My first message will be: "eat me!" -

http://www.universetoday.com/102844/lone-signal-first-continous-message-beaco...

/Ira


This is insane, this is madness! Someone please stop these guys!!

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Matthew Ota
Hmmm


Reged: 04/30/05

Loc: Los Angeles, California
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5917516 - 06/12/13 06:45 PM

I tried to watch it, really did, but it is such and old tired formula for a cheap sci-fi flick that I immediately changed channels. I cannot waste time watching such trash.
Quote:

Anyone watch Falling Skies?




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Matthew Ota
Hmmm


Reged: 04/30/05

Loc: Los Angeles, California
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Matthew Ota]
      #5917519 - 06/12/13 06:47 PM

It also concerns me that the only messages we have been sending out have come from the programs shown on idiot boxes. Not a good representation of humanity, IMHO.

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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Matthew Ota]
      #5917540 - 06/12/13 07:04 PM

Maybe more realistic than we want to admit?

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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Ira]
      #5918352 - 06/13/13 08:39 AM

Quote:

And now...here it is...SETI - "Spam to Extraterrestrial Intelligence"
You get one message of your choice, free; the next cost money to help support the project.

My first message will be: "eat me!" -

http://www.universetoday.com/102844/lone-signal-first-continous-message-beaco...

/Ira




Mine will be "Eat HIM! =>"


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Achernar
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5918829 - 06/13/13 01:44 PM

Calling attention to ourselves when we no nothing at all about who or what might be nearby is incredibly stupid and arrogant. To make matters worse, the Pioneer and Voyager probes that are now speeding away into interstellar space have road maps any aliens that finds one of them can use to locate Earth with the ease of using a roadmap. The chances of that are very small, but not zero. Broadcasting high powered signals that will not only announce our presence, but our location as well could invite attention from extra-terrestrial beings who would make the Borg look like good neighbors. Most frightening to me is the utter lack of input the public worldwide has in this, after all it is US who will deal with whatever consequence whatever they may be of aliens contacting us. When we don't even know what they will be, and the fact they cannot be reversed, calling attention to ourselves recklessly is akin to having a death wish.

Taras


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Skip
Starlifter Driver
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Reged: 01/23/08

Loc: Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Achernar]
      #5918851 - 06/13/13 01:58 PM

Quote:

Anyone watch Falling Skies?




Yep! Big fan of anything sci-fi.


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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Skip]
      #5918982 - 06/13/13 03:23 PM

Sci-fi : Abbreviation for Science FICTION.

Fiction: That which is feigned, invented, or imagined; especially, a feigned or invented story

Just putting that out there...


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5919366 - 06/13/13 07:14 PM

Quote:

Sci-fi : Abbreviation for Science FICTION.

Fiction: That which is feigned, invented, or imagined; especially, a feigned or invented story




Sort of like Jules Verne's "From the Earth to the Moon"?


I made a post last night that seems to have disappeared, but: It seems foolish to send out a cosmic "Here we are, come and get us!"; but if you think about it, that's exactly what SETI is looking for. Nobody out there seems to be lining up to send signals for us to find, possibly for the same reason. If anyone is ever going to contact anyone, somebody will have to go first.

The bad part is, of course, we are not mature enough socially to greet an alien race as friends; nor technologically enough to defend ourselves should it be necessary (which is very possible, since nobody would come all this way to say "hi", unless they wanted something to justify the effort; and if they can come here at all, they certainly have some tech that we don't.)

It would be naive to assume that once our signal was detected, it would be many years before a physical response would come. I know, nothing can go FTL; but that's a detail, and one which a more advanced technology or understanding of physics could quite possibly get around. After all, it wasn't all that long ago that heavier-than-air human flight was a ridiculous impossibility.


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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5920328 - 06/14/13 10:31 AM

Quote:

The bad part is, of course, we are not mature enough socially to greet an alien race as friends; nor technologically enough to defend ourselves should it be necessary (which is very possible, since nobody would come all this way to say "hi", unless they wanted something to justify the effort; and if they can come here at all, they certainly have some tech that we don't.)

It would be naive to assume that once our signal was detected, it would be many years before a physical response would come. I know, nothing can go FTL; but that's a detail, and one which a more advanced technology or understanding of physics could quite possibly get around. After all, it wasn't all that long ago that heavier-than-air human flight was a ridiculous impossibility.





I agree 100%. I think Mankind needs to mature on its own for awhile yet. We don't need no 'Super-Nanny' civilization coming in and thwarting mankind's own technological and sociological development and advancement.

If mankind can't do that than perhaps we are a race that doesn't deserve to propagate beyond our own dirtball.

In my mind there are only 2 possible reasons we have not been contacted yet:

1) FTL travel remains an impossibility and travel takes so long that intelligent civilizations are pretty much their own islands with occasional multi-generational forays to nearby systems.

2) Aliens are zipping around the Universe like flies around a dung pile, but they ignore Earth because we are judged to be so far behind from an evolutionary standpoint that we are beneath notice. Sort of like our response as we cruise by a planet where dinosaurs rule: Are we going to stop and open a dialog with large lizards?

I don't think colonizing planets would be a big goal for spacfaring races. I think they would shun gravity wells and just visit systems for resources.

Was our asteroid belt a former planet that got 'zapped' by a Death Star Ray and what is left is the debris after they took out all the good stuff?

In any event, for us bags-of-mostly-water we are too fragile, too energy intensive to maintain, too difficult to program and too short lived to be a significant species. Once our successor species comes on the scene (AI based species) we will be viewed as a bothersome infestation.

Asiac Asinov understood this with his Three Laws, but seriously, an AI machine that can think at speeds many orders of magnitude faster than us won't be able to find a loophole?

Pesse (The Human (roach) motel--Humans check in but the don't check out!) Mist


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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5920395 - 06/14/13 11:21 AM

Klatu Barrata Nikto

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dyslexic nam
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 01/28/08

Loc: PEI, Canada
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Ira]
      #5920410 - 06/14/13 11:32 AM

I haven't chimed in on this thread for a bit, but my position can be summed up pretty quickly:

No matter how sure you think you are that first contact holds no potential for threat or harm, do you have the right to unilaterally wager the fate of humanity on that belief?

IMO the answer is "No".


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Pess
(Title)
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Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Ira]
      #5920418 - 06/14/13 11:38 AM

Quote:

Klatu Barrata Nikto




Whirl, click, WHEEEEeeeeeeeee, thump, SSSiiZZZzzzzeel

Pesse (Well played, sir. Well played) Mist


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