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Glassthrower
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SETI taking an unwise turn?
      #5893184 - 05/30/13 08:35 PM

I just heard about this and was wondering what some of you thought about it. Apparently, there are some people with access with radio telescopes who want to engage in active transmissions to greatly increase Earth's visibility in the radio spectrum - with the goal of attracting attention (and a contact) from extraterrestrial civilizations.

David Brin explains - http://www.davidbrin.com/shouldsetitransmit.html

Am I the only one who thinks this is unwise? Or, am I just one of the paranoid people who imagines a Borg Cube answering the signal?

Best regards,

MikeG


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Rick Woods
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5893259 - 05/30/13 08:58 PM

I'm with you. It's like ringing the dinner bell.

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Crow Haven
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5893326 - 05/30/13 09:37 PM

Yep, dinner's on! Welcome to Earth!

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Laz
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5893340 - 05/30/13 09:46 PM

"ringing the dinner bell" funny!!!!! problem is we won't be here and they won't there when the signal arrives, besides after 50yrs of tv reruns our signals are placed in the spam

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llanitedave
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Laz]
      #5893483 - 05/31/13 12:53 AM

I'm not worried. There's no reason to suspect that we would have anything of interest or benefit to ETs, (other than curiosity), whether biological, technological, mineralogical, or culinary. There are so many possible organic compounds out there to be coopted by organisms, and such a small percentage that we actually use, that I wouldn't be a bit surprised if foreign organisms might actually be toxic to us, and we them.

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CounterWeight
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5893518 - 05/31/13 01:20 AM

Only if the beam out old episodes of 'I love Lucy' and 'Leave it to Beaver'... oh yeah... we already did that! Probably they are laughing about 'George and Gracie'? or 'The Jack Benny Show'.. what if they showed up and did only comedy routines?

I read an amusing note once about when the aliens arrive they will set up tables outside their craft and demonstrate cooking utinsil skills and laundry aids...


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MikeBOKC
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #5893779 - 05/31/13 08:38 AM

Well those signals will travel at light speed, which means that even under the most optimistic interpretation of the Drake equation the nearest listening post to earth would likely be at least several dozen light years away. Travel time to come check us out (assuming achievable speeds of even half of light speed) would be well after all of us are gone. And as noted they have been watching our television shows for decades if they have the technology to intercept us, and given the overall quality of television from its beginning to now (probably a downhill slope) they are likely to think we are morons anyway.

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Glassthrower
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5893929 - 05/31/13 10:12 AM

Well, our television and radar signals are weak compared to what SETI wants to do. If they go ahead with this, it will increase our visibility by an order of magnitude greater than the old episodes of Lucy and the Honeymooners.

And, it seems that some of the arguments above that revolve around the distance to the nearest expected civilization, limitations of travel times, etc, are making assumptions.

We assume that other civilizations (if they exist) are bound by the same laws of physics that we are. This also assumes that our understanding of those laws are correct. This also assumes that these are "laws" to start with. This ignores the likelihood that we are children trying to craft "laws" that explain the nature of the sandbox we find ourselves in.

History, at least here on Earth, gives us plenty of examples of what to expect one two cultures meet and there is a disparity in the advancement levels of those cultures. One side is almost always enslaved and/or wiped out. Let's hope that anyone who hears our message is better than we are.

There are still a lot of unanswered questions about the cosmos and it's possible inhabitants. I just think it would be prudent to remain silent and listen intently. To loudly announce our presence is hubris at best.

I think what bothers me here is not just the "shouting from the rooftops" aspect of the issue. It's the unilateral nature of the proposed program - no discussion, no peer review, no voting, no debate. Those who seek to do this are acting on the behalf of all of us, with no mandate to do so.

Humanity - STFU.

Best regards and clear quiet skies,

MikeG


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dickbill
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5894104 - 05/31/13 11:39 AM

Nobody ever visited Lowell observatory in Flagstaff Arizona?
Lowell could see on Mars what he wanted to see and i assume he himself payed his collaborators to see the same thing.
Now if his collaborators had been payed instead by a neutral organisation, i am pretty sure the truth about the canali would have been throwed more often at Percival Lowel's face.
The academic world is filled with big eggos and either you go with them or you are out. Big eggos never admit any wrongness. Another example is Tycho Brahe obssession with the Earth centric system and measuring Mars parallax, while his close collaborator Kepler worked in his back on a solar centric system. On his death bed Brahe begged Kepler to continue to work on the earth centric system. "ehhh... yes boss", that's probably what kepler said.


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deSitter
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: dickbill]
      #5894119 - 05/31/13 11:46 AM

Halton Arp and Martin Lopez-Corredoira can't get telescope time, and these tools want to do this? More decadence.

-drl


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scopethis
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: deSitter]
      #5894178 - 05/31/13 12:22 PM

so what happens when ET receives broadcast of Mr. Ed and Francis the Talking Mule??

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Glassthrower
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: scopethis]
      #5894289 - 05/31/13 01:20 PM

If I decide I want to sit out in my backyard at night and try to signal aliens with a hand-held spotlight, that would be my business alone....well, and maybe the neighbors who would be convinced of my insanity. But, I wouldn't be embarking on something that speaks for the entire planet by increasing our noise signature exponentially. There are risks involved with this planned SETI transmission. Of course, we can argue that these risks are incredibly-small, but we really don't have any idea what is out there listening.

This reminds me of the old saying - it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Humanity is about to open it's collective mouth and remove all doubts.


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James Brown
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5895343 - 06/01/13 12:33 AM

You're all correct on this of course.

Yes we must be very careful not to reveal too much about ourselves to who knows what is lurking out there in the darkness.

On the other hand. If there is an interplanetary club going on that exchanges knowledge and possibly goods and the only way we can *ever* be a part of it is to raise our hands and say "here we are". Could it be time that we took our chances with growing up?

I think so.


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llanitedave
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5895442 - 06/01/13 02:19 AM

Quote:


We assume that other civilizations (if they exist) are bound by the same laws of physics that we are. This also assumes that our understanding of those laws are correct. This also assumes that these are "laws" to start with. This ignores the likelihood that we are children trying to craft "laws" that explain the nature of the sandbox we find ourselves in.





If those you fear are NOT bound by the same laws of physics as we are, then what's to have prevented them from transcending time and space itself and knowing about us before we even exist?

Fearing that beings who are not subject to the laws of physics will do something physical to us isn't really a very helpful emotion, because if they are really all that transcendent, there's nothing we can do to hide anyway. Conversely, if they are so advanced and transcendent, what could we possibly have that they would want?

Sending out signals that are constrained by the laws of physics would probably not show up on their radar, so to speak. Why would they bother to take notice?


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Pess
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5895699 - 06/01/13 09:36 AM

I, for one, think it would be an extremely bad idea to establish contact with an alien life form significantly advanced from us.

...but probably not for all the reasons stated so far.

Even if this advanced alien was very helpful, shared technology and was benign as it comes...what of mankind? Why strive to discover how the universe works anymore when one can access the aliens Dewey-Decimal system and just check out a ninth grade primer on 'Multidimensional Holographic linear angularity for Dummies'?

Mankind needs to stretch.,..it needs to reach. It needs to explore and to discover. It needs to fall and, yes, maybe fail a few times before it can take its rightful place in the cosmos.

A lot of governments on Earth are still violent dictatorships? Why does the collective man allow them to continue to exist? Why is mankind so willing to sacrifice the future of the planet for short-sighted goals?

Man has a long way to go before he has matured enough to be worth the aliens effort. I fear too much, too soon and you might as well make mankind a footnote.

I would think that the number one reason an advanced alien culture would take an interest in us would be to keep an eye (or 3) on us. Someday we will enter the galaxy collective and they want to make sure we are ready or, if not, pull us as an undesirable weed.

Pesse (Now excuse me, I have to commit genocide against dandelions on my lawn) Mist


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Glassthrower
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5895762 - 06/01/13 10:24 AM

Agree with that Pess just said. On the growth development scale, I think humanity is a pimply-faced teenager filled with hormones who just got his first driver's permit (primitive chemical-fueled rockets). I wouldn't give the keys to a Ferrari to that kid, and I certainly wouldn't give him a death-ray...

But, to address what Dave said - if the chances are so extremely remote that anyone will listen or respond, then why do it at all? Surely that instrument time is better served for a purpose that will yield results? We come back to hubris. Let's do it because we can and let's ignore all the valid concerns raised by our peers.

Quote:


Fearing that beings who are not subject to the laws of physics will do something physical to us isn't really a very helpful emotion, because if they are really all that transcendent, there's nothing we can do to hide anyway.





My opposition to this is not based in fear, per-se. I don't fear death and frankly the aliens wouldn't do me the favor of zapping me with their death ray and putting me out of my misery. My opposition is based on the arrogance of the "scientists" involved in this folly. I agree that nobody is likely listening and if they did, they wouldn't care. But these scientists are acting with total impunity and they are thumbing their noses at rational discourse about the issue - it's arrogance and hubris.

(I like the word "hubris" if you can't tell)....


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Charlie B
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5895823 - 06/01/13 11:04 AM

Quote:

Man has a long way to go before he has matured enough to be worth the aliens effort. I fear too much, too soon and you might as well make mankind a footnote.




Was it Bennett Cerf who said "The link between ape and civilized man has been discovered -- us"?

Regards,

Charlie B


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Pess
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Charlie B]
      #5895855 - 06/01/13 11:27 AM

I would also add that advanced civilizations would not need our I Love Lucy' reruns to smack them on the side of the head.

We are arguably a decade away from planetary telescopes that can generate spectrum from the reflected light of Earth-sized planets.

If we could get a clean spectrum of an Earth sized planet we could, with today's technology, almost pinpoint the technological development of the planet by what we found in the atmosphere. Oxygen means life. Add in the ratios of carbon dioxide, methane, sulfur compounds etc and you can pick a pretty close point of where that civilization is along the lines of technological development. Focus radio receivers on the planet and a spoonful of clear radio signatures will also narrow the spread of years.

For example, after the invention of radio Earth's brightness in the radio spectrum went up exponentially. However, now we are starting to dim down again as radio broadcasts are replaced by fiber optic connections. Graph it out and you can probably guess where a civilization is in its linear tech development.

My point is that aliens probably have already developed this technology and improved upon it by many orders of magnitude. They wouldn't even need to expend their double secret spinach derived Popeye rocket fuel to come look us over.

Food? Not likely. Even if we are edible why travel to a farmers field 2000 miles away when you can raise your own tasty treats right on your own planet?

Resources? Nope. One word here: Gravity well. OK, Maybe that was 2 words but the point remains everything on a planet is exponentially more cost prohibitive to procure than simply plucking it from a nearby asteroid belt.

Colony World? Doubtful. While aliens may be technically far ahead of us we humans can make a rather nasty nuisance of ourselves. America has the most technically sophisticated military on the planet yet is stymied by guys in caves with WW2 rifles and homemade explosives. We also tend to learn at a prestigious rate. Shoot us with a Death Ray and I bet scientists will figure out how it works very quickly. Capture one Alien tank with a Cold Fusion drive and all humanity now has that tech....

Pesse (It would be interesting to figure what the average rate of technical progress is among sentient races? I bet it can vary considerably and humans are probably more clever than average!) Mist


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Rick Woods
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5896301 - 06/01/13 03:46 PM

Quote:

I would also add that advanced civilizations would not need our I Love Lucy' reruns to smack them on the side of the head.

We are arguably a decade away from planetary telescopes that can generate spectrum from the reflected light of Earth-sized planets.

If we could get a clean spectrum of an Earth sized planet we could, with today's technology, almost pinpoint the technological development of the planet by what we found in the atmosphere. Oxygen means life. Add in the ratios of carbon dioxide, methane, sulfur compounds etc and you can pick a pretty close point of where that civilization is along the lines of technological development. Focus radio receivers on the planet and a spoonful of clear radio signatures will also narrow the spread of years.




Maybe not. We have an overabundance of evil chemicals in our atmosphere today; in 100 years, if we're still here, we may have cleaned it up to the point where the spectrum would be the same as the Roman days. How would you tell the difference?

Quote:

For example, after the invention of radio Earth's brightness in the radio spectrum went up exponentially. However, now we are starting to dim down again as radio broadcasts are replaced by fiber optic connections. Graph it out and you can probably guess where a civilization is in its linear tech development.

My point is that aliens probably have already developed this technology and improved upon it by many orders of magnitude. They wouldn't even need to expend their double secret spinach derived Popeye rocket fuel to come look us over.

Food? Not likely. Even if we are edible why travel to a farmers field 2000 miles away when you can raise your own tasty treats right on your own planet?




But everyone likes exotic foreign food.

Quote:

Resources? Nope. One word here: Gravity well. OK, Maybe that was 2 words but the point remains everything on a planet is exponentially more cost prohibitive to procure than simply plucking it from a nearby asteroid belt.




A sufficently advanced technology may have devices that will overcome the gravity cheaply. Like Cavorite.

Quote:

Colony World? Doubtful. While aliens may be technically far ahead of us we humans can make a rather nasty nuisance of ourselves. America has the most technically sophisticated military on the planet yet is stymied by guys in caves with WW2 rifles and homemade explosives. We also tend to learn at a prestigious rate. Shoot us with a Death Ray and I bet scientists will figure out how it works very quickly. Capture one Alien tank with a Cold Fusion drive and all humanity now has that tech....

Pesse (It would be interesting to figure what the average rate of technical progress is among sentient races? I bet it can vary considerably and humans are probably more clever than average!) Mist




In all the movies, our most powerful weapons are ineffective against their force shields.
And anyway, maybe they like I Love Lucy.


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Glassthrower
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5896432 - 06/01/13 05:02 PM

I think this short video clearly explains my position :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI


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llanitedave
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5897009 - 06/01/13 11:26 PM

Quote:


In all the movies, our most powerful weapons are ineffective against their force shields.




But They will be helpless against Slim Whitman's yodeling.

Quote:


And anyway, maybe they like I Love Lucy.




If they are truly a civilized race, of course they will.


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llanitedave
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5897025 - 06/01/13 11:34 PM

Quote:


But, to address what Dave said - if the chances are so extremely remote that anyone will listen or respond, then why do it at all? Surely that instrument time is better served for a purpose that will yield results? We come back to hubris. Let's do it because we can and let's ignore all the valid concerns raised by our peers.






I've seen concerns raised, but not necessarily valid ones. Personally, I think it's a waste of time -- If the ET's are not highly advanced, they'll never get the signals. If they ARE highly advanced, they already know more about us than we do. Either way, there's no tangible benefit that I can see to either them or us.

As for hubris, or arrogance... It's really just the human desire for our voices to be heard. It's no different than starting a blog in the hopes that someone -- anyone -- will read it. Or posting on a web forum. Or displaying your painting. Or sending a first novel to a publisher. Call it what you like, it's people being people, and I can think of many worse things that could be done with those resources.


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llanitedave
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5897036 - 06/01/13 11:37 PM

Quote:

I think this short video clearly explains my position :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI




In which case, you made a big mistake posting here.

"Mr. Gilmer, will you please stand up?"


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roamer
sage
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5897603 - 06/02/13 10:50 AM

I think it is very unwise to do so. Our civilization needs time to develop yet. I think this kinda thing actually should be not be allowed.

Who was it that brought up the Native American - European settler analogy?


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PhilCo126
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: roamer]
      #5897753 - 06/02/13 12:38 PM

Messaging to Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence
The first active SETI message was sent in 1974 towards globular star cluster Messier 13 using the 300 m Arecibo radio dish on Puerto Rico:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message

Sending messages to stars with known exo-planets has been done several times using the 70 m Yevpatoria radio telescope in Ukraine (1999 + 2001 + 2003 + 2008):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevpatoria_RT-70_radio_telescope

The target exoplanet systems of these latter messages are on average 40 light years away, so any possible answer could be received in a human's life time


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Rick Woods
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5897783 - 06/02/13 12:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:


In all the movies, our most powerful weapons are ineffective against their force shields.




But They will be helpless against Slim Whitman's yodeling.

Quote:


And anyway, maybe they like I Love Lucy.




If they are truly a civilized race, of course they will.




Good points!
You are wise, Grasshopper.


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scopethis
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5898280 - 06/02/13 06:03 PM

Voyager carries a plaque telling everyone where we are...

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TL2101
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/17/10

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: scopethis]
      #5898368 - 06/02/13 07:05 PM

I Love Lucy drew them in but Jerry Springer sent them running for the stars.

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llanitedave
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: TL2101]
      #5898569 - 06/02/13 09:53 PM

Or the sewers...

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shawnhar
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: TL2101]
      #5898644 - 06/02/13 10:41 PM

Wow, kinda surprised at all the caveman paranoid comments. Watch out! Them aliens gonna getcha!
You take much more risk every time you eat something more solid than broth, there are folks that choke to death on their own food, happens all the time, I think the odds are, more chance of that then aliens comin to get ya!
One other thing, I'm kinda angry people don't just shut up and let them transmit, for better or worse they want to do it, have at it. What right do you have to tell them they shouldn't/can't? There was no open discussion about breaking the sound barrier, going to the moon, etc... People who drone on about the possibilities of negative outcomes need to shut up and get out of the way of those actually doing.
Even if the baddies do want to come and get us, I'll be long dead by the time they get here AND it will be the best thing to ever happen to humans. For one, the population needs to be thinned back by a few BILLION anyway, and the crime rate would drop to almost nothing. And just think how dark the skies would be once they knocked out all the power! Bring on the armada!


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CounterWeight
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5898792 - 06/03/13 12:07 AM

Reminds me of how human babies get attention, they start screaming...

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Mister T
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #5899074 - 06/03/13 06:24 AM

once again we can turn to Science for answers that put a unemotional perspective on the situation:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/47/


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Glassthrower
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5899327 - 06/03/13 10:21 AM

The point is, why take a risk when the chance of a positive payoff is zero or next to zero? This makes no sense at all. It is a waste of instrument time. Besides, they have NO mandate to do this on the behalf of the entire planet. The arrogance of it all is striking.

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Glassthrower
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899329 - 06/03/13 10:23 AM

Besides, the carry the caveman analogy :

I bet the neanderthals are sorry they lit that first signal fire.


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moynihan
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899396 - 06/03/13 11:05 AM

Quote:

I think this short video clearly explains my position :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI






I would love to have a example of greater than N=1. But, i do tend to think we should not intentionally attempt to attract attention until if and when we get our act together.
Gotten past our own psuedospeciation problems, the obvious problems with allocation of services and resources, etc. etc. We would then be in a mature position to evaluate such activity and its potential results.

Assuming for the sake of conversation, that "life" is "there" as here, driven by similar dynamics, it may be competive on the inter-stellar scale also. If you do not have to get your act together before branching out, it could be a rough neighborhood.

All is speculation, as long as N=1.
but looking at ourselves, i sure as heck would not want to attact a tech advanced version of us.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899399 - 06/03/13 11:08 AM

Quote:

The point is, why take a risk when the chance of a positive payoff is zero or next to zero? This makes no sense at all. It is a waste of instrument time. Besides, they have NO mandate to do this on the behalf of the entire planet. The arrogance of it all is striking.




What risk? Arguably, you're facing a far greater risk from some random child now being born in another state: He could grow up and become a drunk driver on your highway.

As for wasting time, lots of people think that we're doing that whenever we break out our little telescopes. The chances of us discovering anything scientifically new from gazing at M13 are pretty much nil. At least our instruments aren't publically paid for.

In that vein, isn't SETI privately funded? If so, they can pretty much do what they want. You can't show that there's any real risk to us from them doing that. And if performing some random vanishingly small risk on private funding needs a global societal mandate, I fear for my next family vacation.


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Glassthrower
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5899582 - 06/03/13 12:42 PM

Quote:


What risk? Arguably, you're facing a far greater risk from some random child now being born in another state: He could grow up and become a drunk driver on your highway.

As for wasting time, lots of people think that we're doing that whenever we break out our little telescopes. The chances of us discovering anything scientifically new from gazing at M13 are pretty much nil. At least our instruments aren't publically paid for.

In that vein, isn't SETI privately funded? If so, they can pretty much do what they want. You can't show that there's any real risk to us from them doing that. And if performing some random vanishingly small risk on private funding needs a global societal mandate, I fear for my next family vacation.





Darn it, Dave, get with the program and agree with me!

Quote:


What risk? Arguably, you're facing a far greater risk from some random child now being born in another state: He could grow up and become a drunk driver on your highway.





As an individual, perhaps. But that same kid probably won't grow up and attract the attention of the Vogons.

Quote:


As for wasting time, lots of people think that we're doing that whenever we break out our little telescopes. The chances of us discovering anything scientifically new from gazing at M13 are pretty much nil. At least our instruments aren't publically paid for.





Many of us don't observe for science. We observe for fun. I don't think SETI is doing this for fun.

Quote:


In that vein, isn't SETI privately funded? If so, they can pretty much do what they want. You can't show that there's any real risk to us from them doing that. And if performing some random vanishingly small risk on private funding needs a global societal mandate, I fear for my next family vacation.





Your family vacation is not going to bring an Ur-Quan invasion fleet to Sol.

As was mentioned previously, this has been done before and it yielded zero results. Why do it again?

I agree that the "risk" is next to zero. But, the potential consequences are global and could possibly result in our extinction or enslavement. Is it really worth the risk, no matter how small it might be?

Again, it's human arrogance. We are not that interesting. We have little, if anything, to offer the cosmos - unless the cosmos is sorely lacking in selfishness, warfare, and bigotry.

We should get our own house in order before throwing ourselves a galactic Sweet-16 party and inviting a bunch of guests we know nothing about.

I happen to have an open mind about some things. I believe there is life out there somewhere. And I think there is a chance that intelligent and/or advanced life is out there somewhere. Maybe I have read too much science fiction (hence my original link from David Brin), but much of science fiction eventually becomes science reality. The fact that Mr. Brin is against this gives me some food for thought. He is involved in the SETI program. He is a scientist. And he is a very intelligent and rational man. I didn't give it a moment's thought until I read his essay outlining his objections. I'm not saying he is smarter than any of us (although he is surely smarter than me), but he has an informed perspective on this issue.

If this act of folly is so harmless and free of risk, then why is it not up for discussion or debate? What is the harm in intelligently discussing this issue in an open scientific forum? Why not invite peer review of this idea? Again, it's not so much what they plan to do, it's how they plan to do it - they will do it regardless of what objections are raised and they refuse to even discuss it. That screams arrogance and hubris. Yes, there's that hubris again.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899670 - 06/03/13 01:16 PM

Conversely, IF they are already aware of us, they might know how decadent and vile some parts of our society are and thus wouldn't want to have anything to do with us.

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899690 - 06/03/13 01:28 PM

There are two issues involved here, and that is why each side in the discussion is correct, and is also why the two arguments are running past each other.

The first issue is existential. That is, it pertains to the question of whether or not technologically advanced life exists elsewhere in the cosmos. The probability is that it does, but that it also exists so far away from earth that there is only a tiny chance that any message of ours could be intercepted by it at all, or that, if it is intercepted, that there could be any visits to earth stimulated by it for many many years. So the existential risk involved here is indeed minimal.

But there is a second issue that is not at all the same. This one belongs to that very large category that could be called "the ethics of scientific research." From the atomic bomb to efforts to clone or even create life, and so on and so forth, individual scientific research projects have the potential to affect the entire globe. The ethics of such activities are very far from being formulated (medical ethics is an especially large area of study), but it is still a valid question to ask whether the activities of the few should be allowed to affect the lives of the many. In this regard, since those who are carrying out this SETI plan wouldn't be doing so if they didn't think that there was some chance of their messages reaching somebody elsewhere, we are perfectly justified in considering the risks because those risks involve us all. (As for the motivations: I think these SETI guys, after years of detecting nothing, are getting impatient and are hoping to jump start the ET communication project.) Unfortunately, with the field of scientific ethics being so uncertain and unauthoritative, we have no institutions or laws to regulate such private behavior.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Joad]
      #5899730 - 06/03/13 01:46 PM

Quote:


But there is a second issue that is not at all the same. This one belongs to that very large category that could be called "the ethics of scientific research." From the atomic bomb to efforts to clone or even create life, and so on and so forth, individual scientific research projects have the potential to affect the entire globe. The ethics of such activities are very far from being formulated (medical ethics is an especially large area of study), but it is still a valid question to ask whether the activities of the few should be allowed to affect the lives of the many. In this regard, since those who are carrying out this SETI plan wouldn't be doing so if they didn't think that there was some chance of their messages reaching somebody elsewhere, we are perfectly justified in considering the risks because those risks involve us all. (As for the motivations: I think these SETI guys, after years of detecting nothing, are getting impatient and are hoping to jump start the ET communication project.) Unfortunately, with the field of scientific ethics being so uncertain and unauthoritative, we have no institutions or laws to regulate such private behavior.





Bingo! Look at genetically-modified foods for an example of this. Despite careful controls, these modified plants have spread into the wild. Who knows what the eventual consequences will be?

It's amazing how much of humanity has no concept of prudence when it comes to some things.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5899883 - 06/03/13 02:41 PM

Everything we do as a species affects us and the enviornment, that started about 10,000 years ago with the agricultural revolution, when we started controlling our enviornment instead of letting nature provide. Beaming signals into space is natural for us, just like daming the rivers and growing our food in the flood plains of the Mississippi, sure, it might screw something up but we got things to do, lol.

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5899921 - 06/03/13 02:56 PM

Quote:

Everything we do as a species affects us and the enviornment, that started about 10,000 years ago with the agricultural revolution, ...




Speaking of the beginning of agriculture...


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: moynihan]
      #5900139 - 06/03/13 04:56 PM

Biggest danger we face from aliens is them coming to know about our concepts and ideas of dark matter and dark energy which will have them rolling in laughter...

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deSitter
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5900145 - 06/03/13 04:58 PM

SOFL! (slithering on the floor laughing)

-drl


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moynihan
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5900163 - 06/03/13 05:09 PM

Quote:

Biggest danger we face from aliens is them coming to know about our concepts and ideas of dark matter and dark energy which will have them rolling in laughter...




Our concepts and ideas


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5900269 - 06/03/13 06:02 PM

Quote:

Biggest danger we face from aliens is them coming to know about our concepts and ideas of dark matter and dark energy which will have them rolling in laughter...




Pesse (True. Dark Energy is just our current way of marking stellar maps with the notation, "There be Dragons Here!') Mist


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5900619 - 06/03/13 09:34 PM

Quote:

Wow, kinda surprised at all the caveman paranoid comments. Watch out! Them aliens gonna getcha!
You take much more risk every time you eat something more solid than broth, there are folks that choke to death on their own food, happens all the time, I think the odds are, more chance of that then aliens comin to get ya!
One other thing, I'm kinda angry people don't just shut up and let them transmit, for better or worse they want to do it, have at it. What right do you have to tell them they shouldn't/can't?




It seems to me that while the chances of anything happening are remote, if we did attract the attention of a superior species, the results could well be catastrophic and final for all of us. This is nothing to be done lightly. If it backfires, it's not just on them, it's on us too. So far, we don't see any of them doing anything so rash and stupid.
Maybe the reason we haven't heard anything from out there is that they're all smarter than we are (or at least smarter than the guys wanting to sent the signal).

We are not ready to encounter an alien race. We can't even relate peacefully to our own. An Earth united in spirit, if not in culture and government, might be mature enough to send a consistant message to an alien civilization. At present, we're no better than a collection of herds of apes, running around scratching ourselves and fighting with the neighboring herds.

In my working career, I learned not to call the meeting until I had my presentation ready.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5900641 - 06/03/13 09:45 PM

Quote:

In that vein, isn't SETI privately funded? If so, they can pretty much do what they want.




True. And this is why none of this discussion really matters. They're going to do what they want, a right that is a cherished part of the lifestyle that will end when the Klingons come swooping down.

Quote:

You can't show that there's any real risk to us from them doing that.




And you can't show there's not a staggering, horrendous risk.
Not to say that we should stay cowering and hiding in the dark; only that we should at least be prepared to contact someone who could travel here to meet us. First impressions, you know...


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5900656 - 06/03/13 09:59 PM

Quote:

At present, we're no better than a collection of herds of apes, running around scratching ourselves and fighting with the neighboring herds.




Pretty much sums it up.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5900809 - 06/03/13 11:25 PM

Quote:


And you can't show there's not a staggering, horrendous risk.





I think that lack of risk has already been shown. If the beings in question are advanced enough to detect and interpret those signals, then they are advanced enough to already have known about us. We won't be telling them anything they don't already know.

If they didn't come to eat us the minute they discovered our oxygen-rich atmosphere, then the risk of them coming to eat our transmitters is the opposite of staggering and horrendous.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5901055 - 06/04/13 02:18 AM

Or they may already be on their way...

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5901078 - 06/04/13 02:40 AM

Someone once told me they found the link between the ape and civilized man and it is us.

Hope we get it together before they arrive.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: TL2101]
      #5901251 - 06/04/13 08:10 AM

The aliens are not evil, I promise.
There are no evil aliens, the only way we would consider them "bad" aliens is if they came and did not recognize us as life forms.
There is no risk of invasion, or being eaten, wiped out, blah, blah, blah. The are not going to hurl rocks at us from the Moon or camp on Mars while they decide the fate of Earth.
Stop being influenced by science fiction and stop thinking they would act like us.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: moynihan]
      #5901555 - 06/04/13 11:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

At present, we're no better than a collection of herds of apes, running around scratching ourselves and fighting with the neighboring herds.




Pretty much sums it up.





Yea, except that we're advanced enought to go off and fight with distant herds too.


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dyslexic nam
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5901681 - 06/04/13 12:25 PM

Quote:

The aliens are not evil, I promise.
There are no evil aliens, the only way we would consider them "bad" aliens is if they came and did not recognize us as life forms.
There is no risk of invasion, or being eaten, wiped out, blah, blah, blah. The are not going to hurl rocks at us from the Moon or camp on Mars while they decide the fate of Earth.




With all due respect, and setting aside the hyperbole, the point behind these claims is dubious at best. Assuming an alien race even has a concept of moral behaviour, there is absolutely no way to guarantee that they would apply that concept to us. In the same way that many people don't extend much practical moral consideration to animals (ie. their delight at eating bacon is deemed to override a pig's delight at continued existence), it is entirely possible that a more advanced alien species could simply not extend any kind of ethical consideration to their actions vis-a-vis humans. Based on the events of human history, I am not sure that our technological evolution has gone hand in hand with our growth in beneficence - thus I see no reason to assume that technologically gifted aliens would necessarily be beings that cared about the preservation of the human (and other Earthly) species.

The problem in trying to predict alien behaviour is that we are working from a sample of 0 - and if we use human behaviour in relation to other species as a comparator, then your claims of safety ring a bit hollow. How can you possibly guarantee that aliens wouldn't plunder our mineral resources with no more concern for us than that which we extend to insects in a farmers field? I don't think you can.

I am not claiming that any of this is probable, but to resolutely claim that there is no danger in trying to wave down interstellar passers-by seems to be either naive or disingenuous.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5901805 - 06/04/13 01:20 PM

Quote:


The problem in trying to predict alien behaviour is that we are working from a sample of 0 - and if we use human behaviour in relation to other species as a comparator, then your claims of safety ring a bit hollow. How can you possibly guarantee that aliens wouldn't plunder our mineral resources with no more concern for us than that which we extend to insects in a farmers field? I don't think you can.





Yes, this is one of my objections to this active SETI idea. It is not necessarily my primary one, but it's the easiest to illustrate in colorful science-fiction terms.

There seems to be two schools of thought regarding the nature of alien species (amongst those who agree that aliens are possible) :

1) aliens may be hostile or insensitive. They might dominate or eradicate us, with or without the express intention of doing so. Think small indigenous tribes versus larger civilized governments, for an Earthly example. In a nutshell, our species engages in violence to settle some disputes and we recklessly exploit resources with no long-term vision. Therefore, we expect aliens might behave in this manner also. Premature contact with an advanced species may be hazardous in this school of thought.

2) The second school of thought adheres to a model where advanced species are necessarily beneficent because the violent species destroy themselves (and each other) before they can master powerful technologies or advanced techniques of manipulating what we call the laws of physics. Therefore, if an alien species can travel faster than light and hop between galaxies (or dimensions) using means that seem fantastical to us, they would not be violent or "evil" because they would not be extant now if they had these tendencies. The atomic bomb is a good example of this here on Earth. We have unlocked a technology that can end all life on Earth - how we will use this capability? It could destroy us, or it could be one step on a long road of growth for an advanced species.

Maybe I am jaded, but I tend to align myself with the first school.

I do recognize an inherent problem with my point of view and the first school of thought that I adhere to - this kind of thinking can lead to seeing rats on the surface of Mars, or faces, or the Man in the Moon. Recently we had people seeing a rat (looked like a chipmunk to me) in a photo of rocks on the surface of Mars. There are probably some tin-foil hat types who now believe Mars is infested with alien rodents. I don't want to be that guy with the tinfoil hat who is worried about a Borg cube showing up next week.


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shawnhar
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5901813 - 06/04/13 01:23 PM

It's simple logic. (to me)
If they have to obey the laws of physics like we do, the energy used to "get us" far outweighs any resource benefit to them.
If they have figured out a way around the limitation of faster than light travel, there is no way they would feel threatend by us, and with that kind of tech, what would be the need to harm us or pillage our resources?


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5901833 - 06/04/13 01:36 PM

Quote:


It's simple logic. (to me)
If they have to obey the laws of physics like we do, the energy used to "get us" far outweighs any resource benefit to them.
If they have figured out a way around the limitation of faster than light travel, there is no way they would feel threatend by us, and with that kind of tech, what would be the need to harm us or pillage our resources?





Shawn, this is why I am conflicted and this is why I posted here about this - to hear other perspectives. I cannot disagree with what you say. Your point is view is very pragmatic and it is shared by many other people. This is a valid position that bears serious consideration.

The scientists involved in making this decision are apparently not interested in bringing in their peers and doing exactly what we are doing now - discussing this. I think it's reasonable to assume that they have discussed this amongst themselves and have dismissed viewpoints contrary to their desired course of action. This to me is just as worrisome as the remote possibility of attracting predatory alien species.


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dyslexic nam
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5901939 - 06/04/13 02:35 PM

Quote:

It's simple logic. (to me)
If they have to obey the laws of physics like we do, the energy used to "get us" far outweighs any resource benefit to them.
If they have figured out a way around the limitation of faster than light travel, there is no way they would feel threatend by us, and with that kind of tech, what would be the need to harm us or pillage our resources?




I had a response post typed up and then my IPad rebooted. Grrr.

Quick version - with all the possibilities out there,I find it hard to accept that the only logical possibility for visitation is a species that poses no threat, as a necessary corollary to the fact that they are advanced enough to have mastered FTL travel. We do all sorts of things to all sorts of species and it isn't due any sense of threat or need. We exploit other species and resources because it is convenient or to feed our appetites, despite the fact that we are far more technologically advanced than any other species.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5902042 - 06/04/13 03:34 PM

I think we can make some reasonable assumtions about the disposition of potential visitors.
They are a collective, groups working together. The level of cooperation required to travel through space must be tremendous. The decision to come here will be a collective one. Jo shmo alien is not going to decide on his own to vaprorize us.
They will come from far away, it's a long distance endeavor. They must perceive the journey as a benefit. There are no resources we have here that they would not have passed along the way. Even if they do have FTL, the group will have to mull over the cost to benifit of making the journey and decide who's going to go, what they will bring, how long it will take, if they can get back, a thousand logistics...
They will not be able to eat anything here or breathe our atmosphere.
They will recognize our dominance over the planet, we will not be viewed as insects or cattle, c'mon, we split the atom and throw stuff into space on a regular basis, wer'e not that primitive.
Do those not seem like reasonable assumptions?


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dyslexic nam
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5902080 - 06/04/13 03:54 PM

Quote:

I think we can make some reasonable assumtions about the disposition of potential visitors.
They are a collective, groups working together. The level of cooperation required to travel through space must be tremendous. The decision to come here will be a collective one. Jo shmo alien is not going to decide on his own to vaprorize us.
They will come from far away, it's a long distance endeavor. They must perceive the journey as a benefit. There are no resources we have here that they would not have passed along the way. Even if they do have FTL, the group will have to mull over the cost to benifit of making the journey and decide who's going to go, what they will bring, how long it will take, if they can get back, a thousand logistics...
They will not be able to eat anything here or breathe our atmosphere.
They will recognize our dominance over the planet, we will not be viewed as insects or cattle, c'mon, we split the atom and throw stuff into space on a regular basis, wer'e not that primitive.
Do those not seem like reasonable assumptions?




I don't know - mainly because I have no idea what life would be like for an alien species capable of FTL (which is what this is entirely predicated on). Maybe they have discovered a way to fold space-time such that the journey isn't nearly as daunting as you make it out to be.

This would also rebuff your idea that a rogue traveller couldn't be acting alone. I see no reason to believe that interstellar travelers must, of necessity, be collaborative creatures undertaking a common venture. If FTL mechanisms are discovered, I don't see why we shouldn't predict the maturation and proliferation of that technology. Within 50 years, we have gone from primitive computers that occupied 100s of cubic feet, to something the size of an iPod that has computing power that dwarfs the capacity of the former machines. Now apply that same level of growth to all potential FTL mechanisms, potentially over the course of millions of years of technological evolution, and I see no reason to think that interstellar travel would continue to be the daunting task you make it out to be.

I will be frank - I have no idea what such a species would do, nor what their capacities could be. But to blunt, I don't think you do either. That is part of the problem - we have no idea what an alien species might be like. They might be benevolent creatures that lead us to a new era of light. They might be neutral observers that watch us from afar. They might be a roving penal colony that was teleported out of their galaxy and carries one heckuva grudge. We simply have no idea. And in the absence of that information, I think it is a bit cavalier to start actively inviting them over.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5902330 - 06/04/13 06:08 PM

If an alien race decides that this planet warrants a visit, realistically the only reason for them to come here is us (the human race and terrestrial life).

As has been stated before, anything else they can get here would be available elsewhere for much less effort.

I don't see a race of beings so far advanced as to disregard us as an insignificant species.

The "worst" situation I see is that maybe they would come to study us and not intervene when we get ready to annihilate ourselves.

more realistically they will share our scientific curiosity

As much of a fan of science fiction as I am, I have a hard time believing that the Klingons would survive themselves long enough to get off of Kronos.

And the Vulcans would see no logical advantage to pillage us.

And the Rebel alliance would never violate the Prime directive....


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5902637 - 06/04/13 09:01 PM

Quote:

It's simple logic. (to me)
If they have to obey the laws of physics like we do, the energy used to "get us" far outweighs any resource benefit to them.
If they have figured out a way around the limitation of faster than light travel, there is no way they would feel threatend by us, and with that kind of tech, what would be the need to harm us or pillage our resources?




What about sheer imperialism? Human history is littered with tyrants and despots who sought to conquer and dominate for no other reason than to expand their spheres of control and domination.


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Rick Woods
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5902728 - 06/04/13 09:48 PM

Quote:

If an alien race decides that this planet warrants a visit, realistically the only reason for them to come here is us (the human race and terrestrial life).




There's always the possibility that Earth-like planets, ones that have everything needed for life as we know it (large moon, oceans, plate tectonics, magnetic field, etc etc), are rare; and an alien visitation might be for the purpose of colonization, and for all the same reasons we talk endlessly here about why we need to colonize Mars.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5902851 - 06/04/13 10:47 PM

Don't make me start talking about comets again!

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5902893 - 06/04/13 11:08 PM

I'm not talking resources; I'm talking home planet. None of us would want to live in an artificial environment out in the Oort cloud just because access to resources would be much easier; we need sky, horizon, panorama, distance; all the outdoors things that you only get on a planet. Why shouldn't an alien race have similar needs? And if they wanted our planet for colonization, they might be a lot like us in motivation, too.

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5902978 - 06/04/13 11:54 PM

We've evolved to want those things, but we really don't need them. There are plenty of urban dwellers who spend their whole lives in artificial environments -- I've known a few who were aghast at the idea of having to spend too much time outdoors.

Thousands of people have already signed up to live in a Mars colony, which will of necessity be an enclosed artificial environment. It seems likely that any species that has learned to succeed at space travel has also learned to survive perfectly well in artificial environments.


It's worth mentioning that Earth, for any creature that evolved on a different planet, would also be a very alien environment, and visitors would almost certainly need artificial habitats to survive here. Even if they could breathe the air and drink the water, the biological environment is not likely to be benign.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5903396 - 06/05/13 08:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

It's simple logic. (to me)
If they have to obey the laws of physics like we do, the energy used to "get us" far outweighs any resource benefit to them.
If they have figured out a way around the limitation of faster than light travel, there is no way they would feel threatend by us, and with that kind of tech, what would be the need to harm us or pillage our resources?




What about sheer imperialism? Human history is littered with tyrants and despots who sought to conquer and dominate for no other reason than to expand their spheres of control and domination.



Really? You think it is even remotely possible Ming the Merciless is running around out there?
I think it's sad that there is a lot of projection of our behavior, good or bad, onto these potential visitors. They would not act or think like us, at all, promise.
(and they certainly won't speak english like Ming did)


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5903465 - 06/05/13 09:23 AM

The only ones projecting the behaviour of aliens as an given are those who are claiming that there is no possibility of threat. Everyone else is simply raising the possibility that they may not be entirely benevolent, and urging caution in light of this uncertainty.

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5903515 - 06/05/13 09:58 AM

I will concede that it is possible, intentions might not be good. I think it is highly unlikely though. I would give it the same odds they gave the 1st A-bomb of creating a runaway reaction and destroying the planet.

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5904204 - 06/05/13 03:55 PM

Quote:

I'm not talking resources; I'm talking home planet. None of us would want to live in an artificial environment out in the Oort cloud just because access to resources would be much easier; we need sky, horizon, panorama, distance; all the outdoors things that you only get on a planet. Why shouldn't an alien race have similar needs? And if they wanted our planet for colonization, they might be a lot like us in motivation, too.




On the contrary, if interstellar travel times require generational ships, I would bet cold hard cash that those descendents living in those ships would view descending to a dirty ball of a planet as abhorrent.

Some would, sure but most would probably embrace the sterile and happy environment of their ship.

It is a given that if the ship could support multi-generations through space that is was probably a comfortable, regulated environment to live.

Unless we can generate interstellar speeds that render ships as mere transportation systems, I bet most space faring races pretty much go to space and stay there.

In fact, I'll bet that by the time an alien race has routine interstellar travel, they are no longer biological constructs. Being 'Bags of mostly water' will be a thing of the past.

Pesse (If I want to visit a planet I'll play WoW!) Mist


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5904951 - 06/05/13 11:04 PM

Those who feel that because Earth is an ideal home for humanity means its also an ideal home for potentially competitive aliens may be forgetting just how wide the diversity of planets out there really is. A life form that evolved on a different planet will be adapted to that planet's environment, in a very fine-tuned way. That planet will have a different gravitational field than the Earth, it will have a different atmospheric composition, it's likely to have a different radiation environment. The mix of proteins, fats and sugars utilized by the unearthly biology is likely to be very different than our own -- possibly using different amino acids in their enzymes and maybe different nucleic acids too.

Just as one example, a perfectly plausible atmospheric mix is 25% oxygen, 20% CO2, 40% Nitrogen, and 14% Argon, with 2% other gases. There's no physical reason that I know of why this mixture couldn't exist on some planet somewhere. That atmosphere is perfectly capable of supporting life in principle. It would be quickly fatal to humans, however. On the other hand, a species which evolved in that atmosphere would be attuned to it, and would very likely require a certain percentage of carbon dioxide as, say, some regulatory system. An atmosphere sadly lacking in CO2 like ours (despite the fact that it's a lot higher than it used to be) would not be capable of supporting those organisms. They'd need life support systems to exist here.

As another example, suppose these ET's home star is a K0 main sequence star. K stars are a lot more abundant in the galaxy than G stars like the Sun. This star has a surface temperature of 5,200K, less than the Sun's 5770K. Using Planck's Law, we find that a K0 star emits only about 40% as much ultraviolet radiation at 300nm wavelength as does a G2 star like the Sun. Organisms evolving under those lower radiation conditions will be even less resistant to UV than we are, and it's tough enough on us. They'll need extra protection.

So the idea that some species from another star system will just galivant down to Earth and take over because they like the scenery is kind of out there. Not only are the chances of some signal of ours reaching someone who's listening vanishingly remote, but the chances of those listeners finding a place like Earth to be an inviting place to do anything more than study are even smaller. We've really got nothing to offer other than curiosity. Not resources, not climate, not cuisine, and probably less than scintillating conversation.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5905190 - 06/06/13 02:55 AM

Quote:

We've evolved to want those things, but we really don't need them. There are plenty of urban dwellers who spend their whole lives in artificial environments -- I've known a few who were aghast at the idea of having to spend too much time outdoors.

Thousands of people have already signed up to live in a Mars colony, which will of necessity be an enclosed artificial environment. It seems likely that any species that has learned to succeed at space travel has also learned to survive perfectly well in artificial environments.

It's worth mentioning that Earth, for any creature that evolved on a different planet, would also be a very alien environment, and visitors would almost certainly need artificial habitats to survive here. Even if they could breathe the air and drink the water, the biological environment is not likely to be benign.




I hear what you're saying; but I maintain those things are necessary for the development of the complete person. Those urban dwellers you refer to are anomalies (see how smoothly I segue over to the other contentious thread? ). It is not natural to live your entire life in a completely artificial environment.
I suspect many of those Martian volunteers don't quite understand what they'd be getting into. Yes, we can survive in a completely artificial environment; but we do not thrive.

And, that last was exactly my point. Planets just like Earth might be in very short supply, and be very attractive to beings who evolved on a similar world. There may just not be very many out there.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5905195 - 06/06/13 03:00 AM

Quote:

Really? You think it is even remotely possible Ming the Merciless is running around out there?
I think it's sad that there is a lot of projection of our behavior, good or bad, onto these potential visitors. They would not act or think like us, at all, promise.




That's an interesting assertion - with a promise, to boot! I have to ask: what makes you so sure? Would you bet your life on it? Will you do so right here and now, publically?
How sure are you really - and why?

Remember, this wouldn't be a case of if you're wrong, we could go back to the drawing board. If you're wrong, game over. For good.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5905198 - 06/06/13 03:03 AM

Quote:

On the contrary, if interstellar travel times require generational ships, I would bet cold hard cash that those descendents living in those ships would view descending to a dirty ball of a planet as abhorrent.





Well, there's a thought.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5905507 - 06/06/13 09:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Really? You think it is even remotely possible Ming the Merciless is running around out there?
I think it's sad that there is a lot of projection of our behavior, good or bad, onto these potential visitors. They would not act or think like us, at all, promise.




That's an interesting assertion - with a promise, to boot! I have to ask: what makes you so sure? Would you bet your life on it? Will you do so right here and now, publically?
How sure are you really - and why?

Remember, this wouldn't be a case of if you're wrong, we could go back to the drawing board. If you're wrong, game over. For good.



Human brains are Earth biological, electricity and chemistry drive the base behavior like eat, sleep, reproduce. These are a result of developing in this enviornment, this very specific enviornment. Our type of star makes our brains produce lithium when watching a sunset, that's why it's so relaxing. There are lots of other examples, but that is only the BASE behavior, social behavior is shaped in the same enviornment specific way, even specific to which part of the globe your'e in. When's the last time you ate a fried chicken foot on a stick?
They don't have the same bio mechanics and social influences, they won't have human emotions, they won't act like us.
Yes I will bet my life, yours and everyone on the planet.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5906262 - 06/06/13 03:21 PM

If aliens can travel faster than light and break the laws of physics as we know them, then our planet would not be toxic to them. They would probably be so advanced that they would use "mecha" type suits of "bio-armor", or they might project an avatar that is not biological and send it down here. Breathing some Earth atmosphere is probably not going to ruin the day of a being that does not breathe at all.

I also agree with what Rick said earlier - our type of watery planet might be very rare in the universe. We might be very lucky sitting on our little rich planet that is filled with readily-accessible resources and teaming with diverse life.

The vast majority of exoplanets we have studied are hostile, poisonous, violent worlds - massive gas giants bathed in deadly radiation. We have yet to see a single world that might fall into the "Earth-like" category. If our world is rare in that way, we might be of interest to aliens who are curious about our strange, beautiful and wet world. Hopefully the aliens will come as respectful tourists.

So, some aliens might find our planet worth plundering. Or, they might be so advanced that they have no interest in us at all. But like I said before, if such aliens are very advanced, then our atmosphere, gravity, and life would be little bother to them. They could come and go as they please. If they can break the light-barrier, then Earthly bacteria are not going to kill them, and nasty-tasting air won't deter them.

Imagine a ship full of fully-armed Predators landing here. They wouldn't give a moment's thought to our air or microbes. They would have a field day with us and the SETI scientists who brought them here will be hiding in terror under their desks and waiting for our militaries to clean up the mess they made.

I respect the other points of view here and I cannot completely argue against them. But, I still don't think this is a good idea. Given the minimal chance of a positive outcome, I'd say scrap the idea until a future date when more of the variables are known.


Edited by Glassthrower (06/07/13 12:06 AM)


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fodderwing
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5906572 - 06/06/13 06:19 PM

If aliens detect us and are interested lets hope they can travel faster than light.
Hopefully they will get here and stop us from triggering an Oceanic Anoxic Event.
Due to humanaties pumping carbon in the atmosphere,
our oceans could be pink in a couple of generations rendering all non micobial life extinct.

Earths little way of wiping the slate clean


But then again they may feel right at home in those conditions


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: fodderwing]
      #5907323 - 06/07/13 03:20 AM

Here is a website which explores many of the ideas expressed here in some depth. It;s a great site overall putting real science into sci-fi themes. Here is there extensive page about aliens. It covers a variety of ideas. The pertinent parts here start with the discussion of the Fermi Paradox. Some that follows is disquieting,

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/aliens.php

CLear skies and clean glass,
Mike


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Pess
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: fodderwing]
      #5908420 - 06/07/13 05:36 PM

Quote:

If aliens detect us and are interested lets hope they can travel faster than light.
Hopefully they will get here and stop us from triggering an Oceanic Anoxic Event.
Due to humanaties pumping carbon in the atmosphere,
our oceans could be pink in a couple of generations rendering all non micobial life extinct.

Earths little way of wiping the slate clean


But then again they may feel right at home in those conditions





At some point we will extinguish our fossil fuels and the continuous generation of CO2 will abate.

I just hope we have an alternative for energy generation by then that is viable.

I don't think Solar has the energy density necessary to really make it anything more than a niche energy source.

Fission generates dangerous waste and potential environmental damage that could elevate above the CO2 build up threat if all our energy generation came from it.

We need a clean, abundant energy source such as Fusion. Hot or Cold fusion--I'm not picky.

Maybe an alien race that doesn't want us to know about their existence will send down their equivalent of 'Scotty' to give us the secret of 'Transparent Aluminum' (oh, and fusion too)

Pesse (just say'n) Mist


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: fodderwing]
      #5908450 - 06/07/13 05:47 PM

Quote:

If aliens detect us and are interested lets hope they can travel faster than light.



That's one of the scariest things about this. The notion that aliens will save us from ourselves. That humans are somehow apart from, and a scourge on, the natural order. That no matter what, aliens couldn't possibly be any worse than us because to get here they'd have to be more advanced. That goes a long way to explaining the hubris of those who think shouting in the jungle is a good idea, regardless of what anyone else around the campfire thinks.

There is simply no way to figure the odds of a good or bad outcome. All we know for sure is it could be either, or no outcome at all. But given that a bad outcome IS possible, and it's likely to be hundreds, if not thousands of years before it manifests, what point is there setting that potential in motion now?

I get that SETI folks are bored with no results from listening. But that too falls on the side of keep listening and stay quiet. There could be a very good reason why no one else out there is shouting in the dark.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5909626 - 06/08/13 11:53 AM

Quote:


I don't think Solar has the energy density necessary to really make it anything more than a niche energy source.





Solar has plenty of energy density. It's a matter of infrastructure, manufacturing cost, and storage. If the technology deficit of the latter is ever overcome, the first two will take care of themselves rather quickly.

It will then be fusion that's the niche source, but that will still be required in order to get us further than the asteroid belt.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5915853 - 06/11/13 09:16 PM

As long as we're speculating, I wonder if any aliens out there have followed the same path - knowing more about science, technology and the universe than they do about themselves. We can land on the moon, send spacecraft whizzing by planets a billion miles away, and build nuclear bombs, but we don't know how to keep a person from degenerating into a ruthless killer, stop crime, depression, poverty, or hunger. They may very well have the same problems we do, even with much more advanced technology.

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Classic8]
      #5915965 - 06/11/13 10:20 PM

That sounds very possible to me. And it may explain why we're not hearing anything; either they're too savvy to advertise, or they've reached that level of technological advancement (as we have) where they could destroy themselves (as we could) because that advancement far outstripped their wisdom and maturity (as ours has).

Maybe scientific advancement is a dead-end path for most races.

(And, we can't land on the Moon any more. Not people, anyway. Ancient history, that.)


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Classic8]
      #5916128 - 06/12/13 12:02 AM

Anyone watch Falling Skies?

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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5916225 - 06/12/13 01:38 AM

Quote:


Maybe scientific advancement is a dead-end path for most races.





No, it's just that technology is a lot easier than self-knowledge. You can do both with science, but science takes time, patience, and a willingness to set aside comforting myths. When we as a society are willing to spend the time and embrace the self-honesty necessary, we'll learn a whole lot about ourselves.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5916366 - 06/12/13 05:36 AM

And now...here it is...SETI - "Spam to Extraterrestrial Intelligence"
You get one message of your choice, free; the next cost money to help support the project.

My first message will be: "eat me!" -

http://www.universetoday.com/102844/lone-signal-first-continous-message-beaco...

/Ira


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Rudra
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Ira]
      #5917338 - 06/12/13 04:53 PM

Quote:

And now...here it is...SETI - "Spam to Extraterrestrial Intelligence"
You get one message of your choice, free; the next cost money to help support the project.

My first message will be: "eat me!" -

http://www.universetoday.com/102844/lone-signal-first-continous-message-beaco...

/Ira


This is insane, this is madness! Someone please stop these guys!!

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Matthew Ota
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5917516 - 06/12/13 06:45 PM

I tried to watch it, really did, but it is such and old tired formula for a cheap sci-fi flick that I immediately changed channels. I cannot waste time watching such trash.
Quote:

Anyone watch Falling Skies?




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Matthew Ota
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Matthew Ota]
      #5917519 - 06/12/13 06:47 PM

It also concerns me that the only messages we have been sending out have come from the programs shown on idiot boxes. Not a good representation of humanity, IMHO.

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llanitedave
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Matthew Ota]
      #5917540 - 06/12/13 07:04 PM

Maybe more realistic than we want to admit?

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Mister T
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Ira]
      #5918352 - 06/13/13 08:39 AM

Quote:

And now...here it is...SETI - "Spam to Extraterrestrial Intelligence"
You get one message of your choice, free; the next cost money to help support the project.

My first message will be: "eat me!" -

http://www.universetoday.com/102844/lone-signal-first-continous-message-beaco...

/Ira




Mine will be "Eat HIM! =>"


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Achernar
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5918829 - 06/13/13 01:44 PM

Calling attention to ourselves when we no nothing at all about who or what might be nearby is incredibly stupid and arrogant. To make matters worse, the Pioneer and Voyager probes that are now speeding away into interstellar space have road maps any aliens that finds one of them can use to locate Earth with the ease of using a roadmap. The chances of that are very small, but not zero. Broadcasting high powered signals that will not only announce our presence, but our location as well could invite attention from extra-terrestrial beings who would make the Borg look like good neighbors. Most frightening to me is the utter lack of input the public worldwide has in this, after all it is US who will deal with whatever consequence whatever they may be of aliens contacting us. When we don't even know what they will be, and the fact they cannot be reversed, calling attention to ourselves recklessly is akin to having a death wish.

Taras


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Skip
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Achernar]
      #5918851 - 06/13/13 01:58 PM

Quote:

Anyone watch Falling Skies?




Yep! Big fan of anything sci-fi.


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Mister T
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Skip]
      #5918982 - 06/13/13 03:23 PM

Sci-fi : Abbreviation for Science FICTION.

Fiction: That which is feigned, invented, or imagined; especially, a feigned or invented story

Just putting that out there...


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Rick Woods
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5919366 - 06/13/13 07:14 PM

Quote:

Sci-fi : Abbreviation for Science FICTION.

Fiction: That which is feigned, invented, or imagined; especially, a feigned or invented story




Sort of like Jules Verne's "From the Earth to the Moon"?


I made a post last night that seems to have disappeared, but: It seems foolish to send out a cosmic "Here we are, come and get us!"; but if you think about it, that's exactly what SETI is looking for. Nobody out there seems to be lining up to send signals for us to find, possibly for the same reason. If anyone is ever going to contact anyone, somebody will have to go first.

The bad part is, of course, we are not mature enough socially to greet an alien race as friends; nor technologically enough to defend ourselves should it be necessary (which is very possible, since nobody would come all this way to say "hi", unless they wanted something to justify the effort; and if they can come here at all, they certainly have some tech that we don't.)

It would be naive to assume that once our signal was detected, it would be many years before a physical response would come. I know, nothing can go FTL; but that's a detail, and one which a more advanced technology or understanding of physics could quite possibly get around. After all, it wasn't all that long ago that heavier-than-air human flight was a ridiculous impossibility.


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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5920328 - 06/14/13 10:31 AM

Quote:

The bad part is, of course, we are not mature enough socially to greet an alien race as friends; nor technologically enough to defend ourselves should it be necessary (which is very possible, since nobody would come all this way to say "hi", unless they wanted something to justify the effort; and if they can come here at all, they certainly have some tech that we don't.)

It would be naive to assume that once our signal was detected, it would be many years before a physical response would come. I know, nothing can go FTL; but that's a detail, and one which a more advanced technology or understanding of physics could quite possibly get around. After all, it wasn't all that long ago that heavier-than-air human flight was a ridiculous impossibility.





I agree 100%. I think Mankind needs to mature on its own for awhile yet. We don't need no 'Super-Nanny' civilization coming in and thwarting mankind's own technological and sociological development and advancement.

If mankind can't do that than perhaps we are a race that doesn't deserve to propagate beyond our own dirtball.

In my mind there are only 2 possible reasons we have not been contacted yet:

1) FTL travel remains an impossibility and travel takes so long that intelligent civilizations are pretty much their own islands with occasional multi-generational forays to nearby systems.

2) Aliens are zipping around the Universe like flies around a dung pile, but they ignore Earth because we are judged to be so far behind from an evolutionary standpoint that we are beneath notice. Sort of like our response as we cruise by a planet where dinosaurs rule: Are we going to stop and open a dialog with large lizards?

I don't think colonizing planets would be a big goal for spacfaring races. I think they would shun gravity wells and just visit systems for resources.

Was our asteroid belt a former planet that got 'zapped' by a Death Star Ray and what is left is the debris after they took out all the good stuff?

In any event, for us bags-of-mostly-water we are too fragile, too energy intensive to maintain, too difficult to program and too short lived to be a significant species. Once our successor species comes on the scene (AI based species) we will be viewed as a bothersome infestation.

Asiac Asinov understood this with his Three Laws, but seriously, an AI machine that can think at speeds many orders of magnitude faster than us won't be able to find a loophole?

Pesse (The Human (roach) motel--Humans check in but the don't check out!) Mist


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Ira
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5920395 - 06/14/13 11:21 AM

Klatu Barrata Nikto

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dyslexic nam
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Ira]
      #5920410 - 06/14/13 11:32 AM

I haven't chimed in on this thread for a bit, but my position can be summed up pretty quickly:

No matter how sure you think you are that first contact holds no potential for threat or harm, do you have the right to unilaterally wager the fate of humanity on that belief?

IMO the answer is "No".


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Pess
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Ira]
      #5920418 - 06/14/13 11:38 AM

Quote:

Klatu Barrata Nikto




Whirl, click, WHEEEEeeeeeeeee, thump, SSSiiZZZzzzzeel

Pesse (Well played, sir. Well played) Mist


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groz
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5920419 - 06/14/13 11:38 AM

Interesting comments, but, I have a slightly different perspective. Indeed, much is relavent, if the endeavor is publicly funded, ie, public input into the consumption of public resources. SETI is for the most part privately funded, and, the majority comes from a single donor. Therefore, the question that comes to my mind.

Nobody is breaking any laws, so, what part of 'free country' is unclear ?


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shawnhar
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: groz]
      #5920484 - 06/14/13 12:18 PM

Exactly, my gun weilding redneck drunken idiot neighbors or the cell-phone distracted driver on the highyway are much more an imminent threat to me, and they are free to do things that may bring me harm. The "made-up" (and let's face it, it is made up, there is no data to support any intelligent life out there yet) possiblity of attracting bad things from out in the cosmos doesn't scare me one bit.

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Pess
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5920512 - 06/14/13 12:30 PM

Please guys, maintain perspective.

Any signal we send out will travel at the speed of light. It'll be hundreds of years before it encompasses more than a few systems.

Our Military radar has been sending out powerful radio waves for decades that are readily identifiable as artificially created.

Pesse (Don't lose any sleep) Mist


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Rudra
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5920563 - 06/14/13 12:58 PM

It is also possible that other civilizations in the Universe are still in the various stages of evolution and perhaps we are the most advanced race in the Universe.

Edited by Rudra (06/14/13 04:45 PM)


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WaterMasterAdministrator
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5921146 - 06/14/13 07:49 PM

Quote:

It is also possible that other civilizations in the Universe are still in the various stages of evolution and perhaps we are the most advanced race in the Universe.




Now that's a scary thought.


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StarWars
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5921642 - 06/15/13 02:34 AM Attachment (10 downloads)

Quote:

Please guys, maintain perspective.

Any signal we send out will travel at the speed of light. It'll be hundreds of years before it encompasses more than a few systems.

Our Military radar has been sending out powerful radio waves for decades that are readily identifiable as artificially created.

Pesse (Don't lose any sleep) Mist





TV and radio waves most likely radiate out into space for decades...

Dobie Gillis
Gilligan's Island
Three Stooges
Banjo Billy


I'm sure the aliens have absolutely no reason to contact us.....


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scopethis
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: StarWars]
      #5922550 - 06/15/13 05:01 PM

if advanced civilizations exist, the how come we haven't "picked up" any of their radio/tv shows?

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haywool
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: scopethis]
      #5922570 - 06/15/13 05:19 PM

If there are advanced civilizations not of this planet, earth, they could be WAY more advanced than us minor earthlings and have better, more sophisticated, faster communications than "radio/tv" and probably something that we haven't even discovered yet. Heck! They might even know that we are here and see us as so backwards as to disregard us completely.

Rich


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Pess
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: scopethis]
      #5922582 - 06/15/13 05:31 PM

Quote:

if advanced civilizations exist, the how come we haven't "picked up" any of their radio/tv shows?




That question was asked before when our radiation into the radio & TV spectrum was increasing exponentially for decades.

Earth was getting brighter and brighter in the radio spectrum. But now, we are getting quieter and quieter as broadcasting turns to fiber optic distribution.

Therefore more advanced civilizations may only broadcast 'loudly' for a few short decades. Add to that the extreme attenuation of any radio broadcast signal and the fact we have not detected anyone yet is not surprising.

In fact, assuming all the closest solar systems to us had comparable tech , we would not be able to detect their general radio broadcasts unless they sent a tight beam broadcast directly at us.

But then again, nobody us exactly sure where episodes of Jerry springer came from.

Pesse (I suspect they are a preemptive attack) Mist


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Rudra
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5922834 - 06/15/13 08:47 PM

Why do we think that "advanced" alien civilizations know of us but continue to ignore us because we are backwards in terms of technology, science and evolution? Why do we think that faced with the same type of situation, we would ignore backward civilizations and move on? Have we ever done it? I mean in human history, have we ignored and moved on things that we find or discover? If we find "Dinosaurs" on another planet, would we just whizz past, merely giving it a yawning cursory glance? I am sure, if Curiosity discovers microbes on Mars, the world would be ablaze with excitement and hope. We will not ignore the microbes and move on, instead we will study them and try to find their origin and evolution. Same is the case with life on other (exo)planets. No matter how minuscule, how ordinary, how simple the life is, I do NOT think we are going to ignore it. Scientists will be more than curious to find out about how life evolved on different planets, during different times and under different circumstances in the history of the Universe. We communicate today using means at the speed of light with one another, yet we also communicate with remote tribes of human race who have literally no communication with the outside world. We just do not ignore them and move on or do we?

Having said that, I think at least in our part of the Galaxy, we might be the (and only) form of advanced life.


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Pess
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5922870 - 06/15/13 09:26 PM

Earths 'brightness' as an artificial source of radio waves is only a sphere about 70 light years in diameter. Not very large in the overall scheme of things.

Maybe we are still just a needle in a haystack.

Could also be that something akin to wormholes are quite common in the Universe around solar systems and aliens use them like a Federal highway system. But Earth's Sol might lack this structure marooning us in isolation until we make that first interstellar crossing.

Pesse (shrugs) Mist


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Ira
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5922884 - 06/15/13 09:34 PM

No, we don't move on until we've eaten it, caged it, or killed it.

/Ira


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llanitedave
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5922897 - 06/15/13 09:46 PM

Quote:

Why do we think that "advanced" alien civilizations know of us but continue to ignore us because we are backwards in terms of technology, science and evolution? Why do we think that faced with the same type of situation, we would ignore backward civilizations and move on? Have we ever done it? I mean in human history, have we ignored and moved on things that we find or discover?




Not exactly, but close...

Sentinelese Islanders

Contact attempts were made, were resisted, and the eventual decision was to leave these people alone. I think that may be unprecedented in human history, until now.


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Rick Woods
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5925675 - 06/17/13 02:30 PM

Quote:

I mean in human history, have we ignored and moved on things that we find or discover? If we find "Dinosaurs" on another planet, would we just whizz past, merely giving it a yawning cursory glance?




The answer is, probably "yes". Study the Viking mission and all the follow-up investigations.


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TL2101
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5927977 - 06/18/13 05:29 PM

According to the Canadian Minister of Defense they are already here.

YouTube


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Mxplx2
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: TL2101]
      #5928171 - 06/18/13 07:53 PM

Using the inverse square law of 1/R^2, would any signal be detectable at the receivers vantage point? R is gonna get pretty big when we're considering the universe, and it would probably be swamped by other sources at the receiver's end. I guess they figured that out though.

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shawnhar
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: TL2101]
      #5928349 - 06/18/13 10:16 PM

Quote:

According to the Canadian Minister of Defense they are already here.

YouTube



Wow....just .... wow... they won't get me though, I let a little blood out each night to make sure.


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TL2101
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5928582 - 06/19/13 01:25 AM

I think the aliens work for SETI. It would be a perfect cover.

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Mxplx2
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: TL2101]
      #5929965 - 06/19/13 08:04 PM

Just a short SETI related story: Back in the '50's I remember seeing a movie where they wanted to transmit a signal to search for alien life, but didn't know what to send. One of the scientists sons came in the room eating a piece of pie. Out of frustration, the scientists asked the boy what they should transmit and he replied "pi" but the scientist thought he said "pie." There was a eureka moment when the scientists saw the universal relationship of the circumference of a circle to it's diameter, and that would be recognizable as an indicator of intelligent life. That struck me even that long ago.

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Mister T
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Mxplx2]
      #5930664 - 06/20/13 06:36 AM

pi(e) is always the answer!!!

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Rick Woods
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5931397 - 06/20/13 02:24 PM

Quote:

pi(e) is always the answer!!!




Correct. Pie R round.


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Mister T
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5931820 - 06/20/13 06:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

pi(e) is always the answer!!!




Correct. Pie R round.




I are round from eating too much pi(e)


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Glassthrower
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5933129 - 06/21/13 02:47 PM

Now, if the aliens bring good pie, then I am satisfied with being conquered and/or enslaved. I am a sucker for a good key lime pie.

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Mister T
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5933206 - 06/21/13 03:46 PM

my fave t-shirt says i 8 &#8721; &#960;

(sum pi) freakin computers!!


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Pess
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #5933212 - 06/21/13 03:48 PM

I doubt aliens would enslave mankind.

Slavery always dies out when it becomes more expensive to house, feed, cloth and maintain a slave over buying a machine to do the same task.

Slavery only makes sense when human power is cheaper than hav'n some machine do'ing that for you......

I imagine that if an alien race could zip around the galaxy and wanted the resources located within our gravity well...they would just use monstrous harvesting machines and view humans as a more or less nuisance infestation that they may or may not tolerate.

Pesse ('Hey Curly, them pests scampering all over. Will ya set out the Human roach motels?..they'll check in but they'll never check out!) Mist


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StarWars
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5953179 - 07/03/13 01:58 PM

Quote:

I'm with you. It's like ringing the dinner bell.






How to serve Man.....


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StarWars
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5953213 - 07/03/13 02:12 PM


Most likely they would want the resources on planet Earth.....


World Invasion: Battle Los Angeles (2011) FULL MOVIE


Apparently in German but gets to the point....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIgDucy-vHc


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Pess
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: StarWars]
      #5953824 - 07/03/13 09:03 PM

Quote:


Most likely they would want the resources on planet Earth.....


World Invasion: Battle Los Angeles (2011) FULL MOVIE


Apparently in German but gets to the point....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIgDucy-vHc




In all seriousness, is there any resource in Earths gravity well that would be worth the energy to extract?

1) Humans as livestock?

C'mon, if aliens can travel clear across the galaxy I believe they will have found a 'food source' solution that doesn't depend on landfall.

2) Enslave humankind?

Doubtful, owning slaves is expensive. Also resource extraction would probably be the only reason to enslave mankind and, as stated, gravity wells suck too much energy

3) Colonization? Only thing that makes sense. If an alien culture had a generational ship or slow space technology without the resources or desire to move on to an unoccupied system, perhaps they might wish to settle peacefully or forcefully among us. I believe something akin to this was the plot of 'V' awhile back.

In any event, it is my personal opinion that humans have a long way to go before we are worth much as a species. Too many tyrannical dictators, selfish politicians and broken political systems.

Pesse (Can't we all just get along?) Mist


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llanitedave
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5953920 - 07/03/13 10:04 PM

Quote:

Too many tyrannical dictators...




Hey now, no need to make this personal!



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InterStellarGuy
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5956035 - 07/05/13 12:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Most likely they would want the resources on planet Earth.....


World Invasion: Battle Los Angeles (2011) FULL MOVIE


Apparently in German but gets to the point....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIgDucy-vHc




In all seriousness, is there any resource in Earths gravity well that would be worth the energy to extract?

1) Humans as livestock?

C'mon, if aliens can travel clear across the galaxy I believe they will have found a 'food source' solution that doesn't depend on landfall.

2) Enslave humankind?

Doubtful, owning slaves is expensive. Also resource extraction would probably be the only reason to enslave mankind and, as stated, gravity wells suck too much energy

3) Colonization? Only thing that makes sense. If an alien culture had a generational ship or slow space technology without the resources or desire to move on to an unoccupied system, perhaps they might wish to settle peacefully or forcefully among us. I believe something akin to this was the plot of 'V' awhile back.

In any event, it is my personal opinion that humans have a long way to go before we are worth much as a species. Too many tyrannical dictators, selfish politicians and broken political systems.

Pesse (Can't we all just get along?) Mist





Have you seen the movie Battle for Tera? It is about a dying human race that had to leave a dead Earth on generation ships. They have 1 month of oxygen left on the ship, and come upon a planet of primitives, and decide to attempt to invade and conquer the planet as to resettle humanity.


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Pess
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5956264 - 07/05/13 03:38 PM

Quote:


Have you seen the movie Battle for Tera? It is about a dying human race that had to leave a dead Earth on generation ships. They have 1 month of oxygen left on the ship, and come upon a planet of primitives, and decide to attempt to invade and conquer the planet as to resettle humanity.





I could envision a species fleeing from another species ala Battlestar Galactica....

Staggering into Earths vicinity with worn out ships and no options.....

But even assuming that this new alien race has a technology an order of magnitude greater than present Earthling posses, we are a tenacious and determined species....just seeing that the impossible is possible is enough to spur discovery of the technology for ourselves i.e. (antigravity, cold fusion, Selling Britney Spears records...etc).

I doubt at this stage of our technological development we could be thrust aside by an alien culture short of them making Earth uninhabitable.

Wolrdwar by H. Turtledove is a novel that takes an interesting twist on this. The alien race is much advanced and very much older than the human race but the aliens own technological advancement is glacial slow (it works, why fix it?)

Their technology is far superior to Earth's but our inquisitive and determined race reverse engineers much of the aliens technology and the aliens slowly find themselves in a progressively more even fight.

Pesse (We may be a bunch of brats, but we are a smart bunch of brats!) Mist


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scopethis
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5956271 - 07/05/13 03:42 PM

They went through a time warp and landed at Woodstock back in the 60s...

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InterStellarGuy
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5956569 - 07/05/13 06:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Have you seen the movie Battle for Tera? It is about a dying human race that had to leave a dead Earth on generation ships. They have 1 month of oxygen left on the ship, and come upon a planet of primitives, and decide to attempt to invade and conquer the planet as to resettle humanity.





I could envision a species fleeing from another species ala Battlestar Galactica....

Staggering into Earths vicinity with worn out ships and no options.....

But even assuming that this new alien race has a technology an order of magnitude greater than present Earthling posses, we are a tenacious and determined species....just seeing that the impossible is possible is enough to spur discovery of the technology for ourselves i.e. (antigravity, cold fusion, Selling Britney Spears records...etc).

I doubt at this stage of our technological development we could be thrust aside by an alien culture short of them making Earth uninhabitable.

Wolrdwar by H. Turtledove is a novel that takes an interesting twist on this. The alien race is much advanced and very much older than the human race but the aliens own technological advancement is glacial slow (it works, why fix it?)

Their technology is far superior to Earth's but our inquisitive and determined race reverse engineers much of the aliens technology and the aliens slowly find themselves in a progressively more even fight.

Pesse (We may be a bunch of brats, but we are a smart bunch of brats!) Mist





I don't know how much into video games you or anyone else here is, but when it comes to the alien invasion genre - the whole fight aliens, reverse engineer their technology and fight back idea is the premise behind the X-COM UFO Defense series of games. So if you play any games at all, you might want to check that out.


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derangedhermit
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: scopethis]
      #5956619 - 07/05/13 07:31 PM

I care about things that matter - like how my relationship with my spouse is; how my children are growing up, what kind of people they are turning out to be.

The particular way the human race meets its collective fate - who cares? The result is known, it's just a matter of how the galaxy spends its time between now and then. Virus, comet, nuclear war, the sun, whatever gets us as a species: it's nothing to take seriously; it's going to happen.

Suppose (this is beyond credulity, but anyway) we turn out to be the last survivors, the "winners" - we've escaped the death of our own star, we whipped butt across an entire galaxy (or local group, or universe) full of aliens and bugs. We've got the trophy and the ring and the t-shirt and the scars to prove it - so we can relax and watch as things get cold and dark. So what?

It's just death and taxes, extended to the species.

Det spelar ingen roll.


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WaterMasterAdministrator
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Re: SETI taking an unwise turn? new [Re: Pess]
      #5956769 - 07/05/13 09:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Have you seen the movie Battle for Tera? It is about a dying human race that had to leave a dead Earth on generation ships. They have 1 month of oxygen left on the ship, and come upon a planet of primitives, and decide to attempt to invade and conquer the planet as to resettle humanity.





I could envision a species fleeing from another species ala Battlestar Galactica....

Staggering into Earths vicinity with worn out ships and no options.....

But even assuming that this new alien race has a technology an order of magnitude greater than present Earthling posses, we are a tenacious and determined species....just seeing that the impossible is possible is enough to spur discovery of the technology for ourselves i.e. (antigravity, cold fusion, Selling Britney Spears records...etc).

I doubt at this stage of our technological development we could be thrust aside by an alien culture short of them making Earth uninhabitable.

Wolrdwar by H. Turtledove is a novel that takes an interesting twist on this. The alien race is much advanced and very much older than the human race but the aliens own technological advancement is glacial slow (it works, why fix it?)

Their technology is far superior to Earth's but our inquisitive and determined race reverse engineers much of the aliens technology and the aliens slowly find themselves in a progressively more even fight.

Pesse (We may be a bunch of brats, but we are a smart bunch of brats!) Mist




Another fun invasion story is "The High Crusade" by Poul Anderson. Seems some aliens bent on colonization land on earth during the middle ages. The aliens discount the ability of humans in armor on horseback - much to their detriment. The crusaders take the alien ship and figure out how to make it go then it's off to the stars for merry adventures.


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