Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

Speciality Forums >> Science! Astronomy & Space Exploration, and Others

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)
AstroGabe
sage


Reged: 01/10/10

Loc: SE Wisconsin
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: deSitter]
      #5902050 - 06/04/13 03:37 PM

In my mind, the UV catastrophe was one of the biggest anomalies that, once explained, changed the course of the world. There was an apparent contradiction to how much electromagnetic energy was present in a given region of space vs. the classical description. Assuming the classical picture, a blackbody radiating would have infinite power, something that's clearly not the case. Out of this came the foundations of quantum mechanics such as discreteness in nature.

Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AstroGabe
sage


Reged: 01/10/10

Loc: SE Wisconsin
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: AstroGabe]
      #5902062 - 06/04/13 03:43 PM

Also, to the point of whether scientific progress could occur without anomalies: I think that it would. There are many instances where an experiment is done in a region never before probed that leads to new and unexpected results that help push our understanding even further.

However, some of the big breakthroughs often occur when attempting to solve or disprove an anomaly.

Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Qwickdraw
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: dickbill]
      #5902076 - 06/04/13 03:51 PM

Quote:

Well, Pioneer anomaly is resolved apparently:"...By 2012 several papers by different groups, all reanalyzing the thermal radiation pressure forces inherent in the spacecraft, showed that a careful accounting of this could account for the entire anomaly..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_anomaly




Yes, I read the most likely accepted cause but unless you could actually re-orient Pioneer to face the opposite direction it is currently traveling and prove the radiation emitted pressure is asymmetrical it is still just a theory.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AstroGabe
sage


Reged: 01/10/10

Loc: SE Wisconsin
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5902082 - 06/04/13 03:54 PM

I wouldn't consider the "Pioneer anomaly" as an anomaly. If something has a scientifically plausible explanation, I would not consider it an anomaly.

Gabe


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Qwickdraw
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: AstroGabe]
      #5903273 - 06/05/13 06:26 AM

Quote:

I wouldn't consider the "Pioneer anomaly" as an anomaly. If something has a scientifically plausible explanation, I would not consider it an anomaly.

Gabe




I would suggest you should reconsider what you believe an anomaly is. An anomaly is just a departure from what you would expect. Determining a scientifically plausible explanation does not make it less of an anomaly . I would suggest that future reoccurring and consistent observations of the same behavior could then lose their anomaly status if the behavior becomes "expected" whether scientifically explainable or not.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5903380 - 06/05/13 08:18 AM

I'm mixed about the PA - Gabe is right in the sense that there is a "plausible" (stretching the word) prosaic explanation. I think the proffered explanation is far-fetched and grasping and would like to see more study of it. But a genuine anomaly is of the form - "This is crazy, we can't explain it". We have two such in current days - intrinsic redshift and LENR.

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Qwickdraw
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: deSitter]
      #5903391 - 06/05/13 08:27 AM

Quote:

I'm mixed about the PA - Gabe is right in the sense that there is a "plausible" (stretching the word) prosaic explanation. I think the proffered explanation is far-fetched and grasping and would like to see more study of it. But a genuine anomaly is of the form - "This is crazy, we can't explain it". We have two such in current days - intrinsic redshift and LENR.

-drl




But you would have to agree that every anomaly has a naturally occurring plausible scientific explanation and is governed by some type of law or principle whether we can define it or not. I would substitute your comment "we can't explain it" with "we didn't predict this". If a behavior is predictable and consistent but we still do not understand the root cause is it still an anomaly? I say no.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ravenous
sage


Reged: 11/14/09

Loc: UK
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: deSitter]
      #5903403 - 06/05/13 08:36 AM

Quote:

LENR



I knew it, from the very first post. Here we go again.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Qwickdraw
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Ravenous]
      #5903732 - 06/05/13 11:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

LENR



I knew it, from the very first post. Here we go again.




Hi Ravenous,

I assume you mean going off topic?

Sorry but it may be important to define what an anomaly actually is before giving examples. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ravenous
sage


Reged: 11/14/09

Loc: UK
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5903779 - 06/05/13 12:08 PM

No I'm not accusing you of anything naughty, far from it. And you are absolutely correct that we probably need to define what an anomaly is to have a scientific discussion.

The OP, however, is not looking for a scientific discussion. He was somewhat miffed that the E-Cat thread was closed before he'd had the opportunity to "win" it, and has raised this one to trawl for historic examples of scientists being declared as nutjobs, before eventually being proven right. He is then going to claim the E-cat business is the same thing all over again.

I saw this in the very first post, I wonder how many others did.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Ravenous]
      #5903964 - 06/05/13 01:42 PM

I did. I'm amused that it has been made obvious now. And I'll add that until the e-Cat results and Arp's insistence that quasars aren't speeding away from each other are actually verified, neither of those "phenomena" count as anomalies.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sirchz
super member


Reged: 09/21/09

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: deSitter]
      #5904000 - 06/05/13 01:55 PM

Quote:

Let's have a thorough discussion of the role of anomalies in scientific progress.




Not all anomalies are equal. To characterize an anomaly, a few things I think about are:

How credible is the data?
Has it been independently reproduced?
How much confidence do I have in the expected result?
What is the "size" of the anomaly?

For the UV catastrophe I would say:
1) Data was credible
2) results had been reproduced
3) expected result (classical E&M) was a well tested theory
4) The size of the anomaly was very large.

This is why it was a viewed as a big problem.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Ravenous]
      #5904082 - 06/05/13 02:40 PM

Quote:

No I'm not accusing you of anything naughty, far from it. And you are absolutely correct that we probably need to define what an anomaly is to have a scientific discussion.

The OP, however, is not looking for a scientific discussion. He was somewhat miffed that the E-Cat thread was closed before he'd had the opportunity to "win" it, and has raised this one to trawl for historic examples of scientists being declared as nutjobs, before eventually being proven right. He is then going to claim the E-cat business is the same thing all over again.

I saw this in the very first post, I wonder how many others did.




Don't impute motives to me. Yes LENR is on my mind. The point about anomalies was made by someone I respect a great deal, and I hadn't thought of it in those terms. LENR is in the same category of other anomalies that have led to great progress - shall I start naming them?

Miffed? I don't get miffed. Miffed is for pseudoskeptics.

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5904343 - 06/05/13 05:02 PM

Quote:

An anomaly is just a departure from what you would expect.




Unless the expectation is unrealistic or invalid, in which case the departure might not be anomalous, but rather, the norm. If an untutored alchemist combines sodium and chlorine in hopes of creating gold, and he instead produces salt, that is not an anomalous result.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5904364 - 06/05/13 05:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

An anomaly is just a departure from what you would expect.




Unless the expectation is unrealistic or invalid, in which case the departure might not be anomalous, but rather, the norm. If an untutored alchemist combines sodium and chlorine in hopes of creating gold, and he instead produces salt, that is not an anomalous result.




Hmm, then nothing is an anomalies?

I mean all anomalies are normal...just not in line with our erroneous assumptions. So technically, we have anomalous expectations, rather than nature being the anomalous one...


Pesse (Just our hubris I guess..lol) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Pess]
      #5904413 - 06/05/13 05:38 PM

No, it would be anomalous if someone combined sodium and chlorine and the reaction yielded gold.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Pess]
      #5904442 - 06/05/13 05:56 PM

Let me repeat what is probably the greatest anomaly in modern science (and the one that is the centerpiece of Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions): the Michelson-Morley experiment, which completely confounded the expectations of Newtonian physics with the spectacle of approaching light beams whose velocity remained constant in all conditions. M&M repeated their experiment under all sorts of conditions to worm out any errors on the part of their experiment; other scientists repeated their experiment. Everyone agreed that something very anomalous was going on.

Someday it may appear that LENR and intrinsic red shift are anomalies too, but that day won't come until scientists can, on the one hand, do a complete and unrestricted test of the e-Cat, and, on the other, find evidence that the red shift interpretations that bother Arp can be attributed to anything but an expanding universe.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Joad]
      #5904510 - 06/05/13 06:33 PM

The E-cat is really, in terms of science, a side show. Many, many experiments at this point have shown generation of anomalous heat. I think of the E-cat as something like the first electric motor (1827), which came well in advance of any theory of electricity and magnetism as a joint phenomenon (1865).

The question is - why are modern people actually *offended* by the emergence of new phenomena? This is the only conclusion one can draw.

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: deSitter]
      #5904590 - 06/05/13 07:29 PM

No, it is not the only conclusion one can draw. It is the only conclusion that you, apparently, can draw. We "modern people" (who, apparently, include just about the entire academic world in your opinion—I know that that alone is reason for you to reject their views) demand solid evidence that a "new phenomenon" has appeared. We aren't offended at all.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Joad]
      #5904662 - 06/05/13 08:23 PM

"The Twilight of the Scientific Era" - Martin Lopez-Corredoira. Read it.

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)


Extra information
3 registered and 9 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  LivingNDixie, FirstSight, JayinUT 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 1490

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics