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scottk
sage


Reged: 08/29/09

Loc: Tennessee
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: Pess]
      #5925433 - 06/17/13 12:36 PM

Then there's the Fermi Paradox. Why are there not endless civilizations contacting us?

Perhaps they all destroyed themselves shortly after discovering how to split an atom.


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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: Pess]
      #5925469 - 06/17/13 12:50 PM

Yes, we'll build retreats. Here on Earth. In fact, we always have. That's why some of us opt to dwell in warm homes rather sleeping out in blizzards.

There's a huge difference, though, between all of us seeking to live rather then relying on a select few to perpetuate the species via transport to other worlds. The latter option, to paraphrase Aldo Leopold, would be like relegating happiness to heaven. The vast majority of us would never get there.

I'd hope that human ingenuity focuses on keeping the Earth habitable for all members of all species (except for gnats, maybe) rather than figuring that a few lucky(?) souls can jump ship when the going gets really bad. If we can anticipate that thinning of the herd is desirable, wouldn't it make more sense to consider some serious changes in family planning now in order to avert a large-scale calamity later?


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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5925529 - 06/17/13 01:20 PM

Quote:

Yes, we'll build retreats. Here on Earth. In fact, we always have. That's why some of us opt to dwell in warm homes rather sleeping out in blizzards.

There's a huge difference, though, between all of us seeking to live rather then relying on a select few to perpetuate the species via transport to other worlds. The latter option, to paraphrase Aldo Leopold, would be like relegating happiness to heaven. The vast majority of us would never get there.

I'd hope that human ingenuity focuses on keeping the Earth habitable for all members of all species (except for gnats, maybe) rather than figuring that a few lucky(?) souls can jump ship when the going gets really bad. If we can anticipate that thinning of the herd is desirable, wouldn't it make more sense to consider some serious changes in family planning now in order to avert a large-scale calamity later?





Yeah, humanity has always shown a willingness to look ahead and plan.....

But if we can, we will send out colony ships.

Remember all those pilgrams who left the nice warm fires of Europe to explore an itchy-scratchy existence in the New World?

Oh, we'll go alright.

Pesse (To Infinity & Beyond!) Mist


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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: Pess]
      #5925563 - 06/17/13 01:41 PM

Have a nice trip.

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Rudra
super member


Reged: 07/02/10

Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5925582 - 06/17/13 01:48 PM

And how these multi-generational ships will be made self sustaining? These spaceships, how their parts, that go bad or break, will be replaced? From where would we get the replacements? I do not think Kragen's or O'reilly Auto Store will be on the way, somewhere.

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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5925664 - 06/17/13 02:22 PM

Quote:

And how these multi-generational ships will be made self sustaining? These spaceships, how their parts, that go bad or break, will be replaced? From where would we get the replacements? I do not think Kragen's or O'reilly Auto Store will be on the way, somewhere.




It would definitely have to be big enough and have enough redundancy to be capable of repairs, fabrication etc enroute.

Recycling must approach almost 99.9% or the expendable depletion would be catastrophic. Even that 0.1% loss might be too much in a multigenerational ship.

Redundant, refined dependable fusion plants are required for sure as Hydrogen can be scooped in route.

Absolutely everything must be recycled...and I mean everything

Pesse (Please pass the Solyant Green and gravy) Mist


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5925666 - 06/17/13 02:23 PM

The people who would go on such a trip would theoretically be the cream of the crop; People who can think and improvise their way out of any problem, handle any emergency with a cool head. Super people. And, when they colonize and start reproducing and populating this extra-solar planet, they will be the superior race we eventually contact.

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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: Pess]
      #5925835 - 06/17/13 04:01 PM

Quote:



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And how these multi-generational ships will be made self sustaining? These spaceships, how their parts, that go bad or break, will be replaced? From where would we get the replacements? I do not think Kragen's or O'reilly Auto Store will be on the way, somewhere.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It would definitely have to be big enough and have enough redundancy to be capable of repairs, fabrication etc enroute.

Recycling must approach almost 99.9% or the expendable depletion would be catastrophic. Even that 0.1% loss might be too much in a multigenerational ship.

Redundant, refined dependable fusion plants are required for sure as Hydrogen can be scooped in route.

Absolutely everything must be recycled...and I mean everything

Pesse (Please pass the Solyant Green and gravy) Mist




Better take along a healthy supply of banjos, too. By the time that multi-generational ship reaches its destination, everyone on board is going to be so in-bred they'll look like the guy on the porch in Deliverance.

But no problem. Someone is bound to chime in and say that, by then, we'll know how to alter human genetics to achieve whatever result we desire, including the creation of humans who are no longer quite human. So, is that the purpose of this fantasy, to ensure the survival of a select few people -- descendants of the so-called cream-of-the-crop -- who aren't quite human?


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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5925898 - 06/17/13 04:30 PM

Quote:

And how these multi-generational ships will be made self sustaining? These spaceships, how their parts, that go bad or break, will be replaced? From where would we get the replacements? I do not think Kragen's or O'reilly Auto Store will be on the way, somewhere.




That's simple. We can contract with the folks who make the ships for those cruise lines that have been much in the news just lately. They know all about making trouble-free conveyances.

And, heaven forbid, if there's any problem, affected passengers get a $500 credit toward the next voyage.


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Classic8
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/12/06

Loc: Naperville, IL, USA
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5925999 - 06/17/13 05:32 PM

We could just send the politicians. The thrust from their verbosity should be enough to accelerate the ship to near light speeds, thus eliminating long travel times. And getting them out of our hair sooner.

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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5926022 - 06/17/13 05:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And how these multi-generational ships will be made self sustaining? These spaceships, how their parts, that go bad or break, will be replaced? From where would we get the replacements? I do not think Kragen's or O'reilly Auto Store will be on the way, somewhere.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It would definitely have to be big enough and have enough redundancy to be capable of repairs, fabrication etc enroute.

Recycling must approach almost 99.9% or the expendable depletion would be catastrophic. Even that 0.1% loss might be too much in a multigenerational ship.

Redundant, refined dependable fusion plants are required for sure as Hydrogen can be scooped in route.

Absolutely everything must be recycled...and I mean everything

Pesse (Please pass the Solyant Green and gravy) Mist




Better take along a healthy supply of banjos, too. By the time that multi-generational ship reaches its destination, everyone on board is going to be so in-bred they'll look like the guy on the porch in Deliverance.

But no problem. Someone is bound to chime in and say that, by then, we'll know how to alter human genetics to achieve whatever result we desire, including the creation of humans who are no longer quite human. So, is that the purpose of this fantasy, to ensure the survival of a select few people -- descendants of the so-called cream-of-the-crop -- who aren't quite human?




If we can have a ship big enough to carry 150 people, then we are good for 20 generations or so.

Many more if people are allowed to take multiple breeding partners....

Pesse (Hugh Hefner has created the template) Mist


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: Pess]
      #5926319 - 06/17/13 08:44 PM

In that case frozen embryos would do better. Also, we must assume that by the time such project is launched, progress in artificial wombs allow for gestation of these embryos, or a chimp colony is set for this purpose. When approaching the nearby star, and after 'delivery' from the artificial womb, then I guess it's up to robots to take care of the human children and educate them.

A step further would be to take human dna code and synthetise the dna only when approaching destination. The 'synthetic' dna would be injected and 'fertilized' with another synthetic dna inside an ovocyte...but that's lot of trouble. The only advantage of that is that the dna has not be cryopreserved for too long and should not be dammaged.

Transporting the Dna frozen from each partners during all the journey is definitively easyer but the DNA code must be available on a durable support (like several redundant platinum dvd or hard drives) in order to compare the frozen dna and repair the genetic damages caused by thousands of years of cryoconservation.
Look at the frozen Mammoth dna found in Siberia: it's good enough for being sequenced but too damaged to be usefull for a direct fertilization.

But delivery of frozen dna is definitively doable if a hard copy of the dna code is available to repair the damages in the frozen dna, by homologous recombination for example.
Using the Mammoth dna as an example, and providing the Dna can be repaired if necessary once arrived at destination, i'd say we could easily send frozen human dna suitable for fertilization, for duration up to 30-40,000 years, and probably close to a million years, whatever the distance covered during that time.


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Rudra
super member


Reged: 07/02/10

Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: dickbill]
      #5926696 - 06/18/13 12:33 AM

I think given the potential of technology, science and mathematics, one would not need even spaceships. Just a technology that can beam you to a distant planet in distant galaxy where you have your office and then be back on earth by dinner. Spaceships aren't needed at all.

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Brent Campbell
sage


Reged: 02/09/10

Loc: Olympia, WA
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5926807 - 06/18/13 03:02 AM

Quote:

The people who would go on such a trip would theoretically be the cream of the crop; People who can think and improvise their way out of any problem, handle any emergency with a cool head. Super people. And, when they colonize and start reproducing and populating this extra-solar planet, they will be the superior race we eventually contact.




Historically though that is not what colonized continents. If you are the cream of the crop you are going to have plenty of opportunities right here at home. We want the damaged people. "Our ancestors got kicked out of every decent country in the world" (Bill Murray Stripes).

The "damaged people" have little to loose by rolling the dice. And traveling to another planet is rolling the dice in a huge manner. If your life sucks at home with few prospects of improving it, then you may have nothing to loose by trying something different.


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UND_astrophysics
sage


Reged: 01/19/13

Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: dickbill]
      #5926815 - 06/18/13 03:17 AM

Frozen embryos are out of the question.
There is a big problem with anything that involves long term cryogenics..
-

The child, or donor must be raised from birth in a specific isolated environment that is free from all natural radioactive elements that we as humans take in during our lifetimes. Any long term cryo preservation of tissue, body, or DNA after several thousands of years will be damaged by decay of atomic particles that are in it's cells, resulting in mutation and death. The only way to avoid it is to specifically raise a generation that is somehow completely isolated and free of all naturally occurring radioactive elements, and that is an ethical dilemma, and technical problem.
-

As far as generational ships. this will require a religious type cult to sustain the purpose of the generational mission. Short of anything else, there are no guarantees there will not be a mutiny, we see it constantly in Earth's history and politics.
-

Another problem we create a generation starship that can reach another system in 40,000 years, but 500 years later we create technology that allows us to reach the same star in 1000 years. Big problem there, because we have already made the original mission worthless.
-

There are a lot of sci-fi movies and stuff out there that is just plain wrong, and I got to the point that I cannot even enjoy science fiction and "discovery channel" type shows anymore because the science is so incorrect.
-

Though I might add I sincerely wish these long term missions were as easy as some think they are.


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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: UND_astrophysics]
      #5926881 - 06/18/13 06:40 AM

The hardest part about sending humans to another planet is that we have to send humans.

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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: UND_astrophysics]
      #5926977 - 06/18/13 08:15 AM

Quote:

Frozen embryos are out of the question.
There is a big problem with anything that involves long term cryogenics..




The population would have to breed throughout the journey. A few tens of thousands of frozen embryos could be taken and 'utilized' to maintain a broader gene pool. So your frozen embryos would only have to stay viable for a few hundred years or less. Freeze-thaw-grow-harvest=refreeze.

Quote:



As far as generational ships. this will require a religious type cult to sustain the purpose of the generational mission. Short of anything else, there are no guarantees there will not be a mutiny, we see it constantly in Earth's history and politics.
-




or just a really, really good constitution.

Quote:


Another problem we create a generation starship that can reach another system in 40,000 years, but 500 years later we create technology that allows us to reach the same star in 1000 years. Big problem there, because we have already made the original mission worthless.
-




Let's hope our Earth bound brethren are not real snots and maintain contact with the generational ship...and forward any new technologies that are developed.

Quote:


There are a lot of sci-fi movies and stuff out there that is just plain wrong, and I got to the point that I cannot even enjoy science fiction and "discovery channel" type shows anymore because the science is so incorrect.
-




Yeah, I cringe when Star trek ship crew 'beam' right to a planet without consideration of pressure differences. Don't they ever get the bends??!!

Quote:


Though I might add I sincerely wish these long term missions were as easy as some think they are.




Pesse (me too) Mist


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: Rudra]
      #5927099 - 06/18/13 09:35 AM

Quote:

I think given the potential of technology, science and mathematics, one would not need even spaceships. Just a technology that can beam you to a distant planet in distant galaxy where you have your office and then be back on earth by dinner. Spaceships aren't needed at all.




Good point, providing we find an extraterrestrial civilization somewhere, with the technology to synthezise dna, we could just beam our dna code to them.
A technicaly advanced civilization would probably ask for this information anyway, as part of the exchange of other informations we would have with them. What would they do with our dna code?

Also, human embryos (that is a fertilized egg at the minimum ) would suffer from long period of cryoconservation even if there were no radiations (i assume they would be shielded from it anyways) that's why it's better to send frozen dna, which would still be degraded but could be repaired, IF the purpose was to set a human colony on another planet. Needless to say, extremely efficient robots are absolutely necessary for this project.
Alternatively, we could go the 'Prometheus' way (the movies): send primitive dna, from early species of chordates, plants and bacterias etc, a let them recapitulate evolution with no garanties it will produce a human being.


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CounterWeight
Postmaster
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Palo alto, CA.
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: dickbill]
      #5927309 - 06/18/13 11:27 AM

I think starting with small steps is the answer. Calculated effort and perceived difficulty and benefits vs. actual - you just don't know for certain until you do it. Start with a base or three on Luna, see what really happens. Then off to mars and it's moons, then to the asteroid belt, then past the belt. Taking small steps we are forced to do what we can with what we have. The technology 'leap frog' should not be huge, though learning from the process itself is possible too. But to not do it at all and relegate the effort to star-trek and Hollywood and sci-fi fantasy we are stuck in the perception stage of it all. I've often thought the difficulty in this 'Luna first' thinking is that it is politically 'too close' and we could just take our 'issues' out there and be hamstrung or worse. But then too, maybe not - or at least the issues might somehow evolve along with the effort.

At the end of the day, maybe we would be more thoughtful about the ideal space ship for the species we already inhabit.

There could be so much done WRT 'proof of concept' and discovery just making a moon base I don't see any good reason not to do it. I'd rather go through the discovery part of it with the relatively short distance first rather than need to somehow come up with miracles later.


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Ptarmigan
Lagopus lagopus
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Reged: 09/23/04

Loc: Arctic
Re: Will we ever go to another planet? new [Re: scottk]
      #5927342 - 06/18/13 11:41 AM

I think we will go to another planet in the future. Most likely Mars.

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