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Equipment Discussions >> Equipment

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Lorence
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/15/08

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5648963 - 01/28/13 06:50 PM

Quote:

No criticism on the part of your preference , . Just not my preference . And no need to get nasty about it , it makes you seem like an intolerant being . Every one has their own way of enjoying the hobby , so expressing ones point of view doesn't need to be taken head in with strong rebuttle . You see it your way , I see it mine




Can you see that what I am doing is nothing more than a form of outreach. Some stand up on a sidewalk or in a park and say "Look what you can see through my telescope" I chose to stand up here and say "Look what you can see through my telescope and you can also see the same thing through your telescope even if you are in a badly light polluted area."

For that I got "That camera discussion is old long ago." On another group the response from you and a few others was "Go back where you came from. We don't want to hear anything about what you people do."

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5581110/page...

I can imagine what would happen if one of the sidewalk outreach observers was greeted with that sort of welcome.

As for the live experience, you can't taste a photon or feel it. It only creates a signal that your brain sees as an image.

Who are you to tell everyone that my image is not as good as yours? They are only images.

You are not there as you tried to point out. We are both here looking at an object through a device. Somehow along the line that look is translated into an image inside out heads, nothing else. If being there is the only way to do it, explain why billions watch and enjoy sporting events on TV throughout the world.

I am doing my best to generate more interest in astronomy, be it with newcomers or with people who like me have been observing for over fifty years.

What are you trying to do?


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rigelsys
Vendor (Rigel Systems)


Reged: 08/22/06

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5649063 - 01/28/13 07:41 PM

Having taught astronomy lab class for 35 years at a local Community College, this is the way I see it too. Between 20 and 50 people are busy getting through the middle passage of career, spouse, mortages, kids, mortages, investments, fast cars, fast living, etc...

Still, if you show them the stars when they're under 20, they come back around when they're over 50.

That's what I've seen in my class ... a sea of 20 somethings trying to fulfil a science requirements with a sprinkling of 50 somethings reengaging with the wonder of it all.

Quote:

"Something else - youngsters need to be exposed to this, it doesnt mean they will rush out and buy a Takahashi the day after - you need to sow the seeds. Implantation for Later Action. They may go years with no interest and then remember hmmmmmm maybe that would be fun."

Fits me. I had a scope as a kid, now facing retirement in a couple of years and was looking to pick back up a hobby. Decided on Astronomy. Am getting the equipment now, because I won't be able to afford it after I retire (but I will have enough for gas money to the dark site!). Coming back to this hobby has probably been the best thing I've done in a long time.......




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starrancher
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Lorence]
      #5649191 - 01/28/13 08:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

No criticism on the part of your preference , . Just not my preference . And no need to get nasty about it , it makes you seem like an intolerant being . Every one has their own way of enjoying the hobby , so expressing ones point of view doesn't need to be taken head in with strong rebuttle . You see it your way , I see it mine




Can you see that what I am doing is nothing more than a form of outreach. Some stand up on a sidewalk or in a park and say "Look what you can see through my telescope" I chose to stand up here and say "Look what you can see through my telescope and you can also see the same thing through your telescope even if you are in a badly light polluted area."

For that I got "That camera discussion is old long ago." On another group the response from you and a few others was "Go back where you came from. We don't want to hear anything about what you people do."

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5581110/page...

I can imagine what would happen if one of the sidewalk outreach observers was greeted with that sort of welcome.

As for the live experience, you can't taste a photon or feel it. It only creates a signal that your brain sees as an image.

Who are you to tell everyone that my image is not as good as yours? They are only images.

You are not there as you tried to point out. We are both here looking at an object through a device. Somehow along the line that look is translated into an image inside out heads, nothing else. If being there is the only way to do it, explain why billions watch and enjoy sporting events on TV throughout the world.

I am doing my best to generate more interest in astronomy, be it with newcomers or with people who like me have been observing for over fifty years.

What are you trying to do?




First off , I have conveyed in other posts that I have attended outreach events with the Andromeda Society out of the high desert in So. Cal. whom are truly a great bunch of folks that dedicate an entire section of spots to video astronomy . I have no problem with this and have actually set up among that section prior to being informed that I was within the video section . Aside from a little LP due to the monitors , still had a great time and wasn't about to tear down and move to the visual observers area . Next time out , I joined the rest of the clan in the visual section .
Secondly , I don't recall anyone posting a "go back to where you came from" post . Now I may have missed that and this could be considered a little over the top , but I have only stated that it is not my cup of tea and I feel that an intimate aspect of actually viewing through a piece of glass is being lost in the experience . While on the other hand , you seem to be critical of those purists that continue to enjoy the intimacy that comes with the direct approach of using an eyepiece . Again in my opinion , there is an intimacy that cannot be replaced in any other form that is experienced in using an ocular . To each his own . It isn't an attempt to discourage the use of video astronomy at all , only to convey that the eyepiece approach provides that sense of being at one with the sky could be somewhat lost in the interim . Is that a bad thing ? Should we just skip that all together ? I believe in doing so , would be an injustice to an individual in that they may never feel the at one with experience . You should be able to appreciate that as well .
I have only expressed my personal opinion on the subject and nothing more . I'd rather spend some cash on fuel getting to a good dark site vs on a video astronomy set up . Again , to each his own . If you don't want to be put down for the way you want to do it , you shouldn't put others down for not . That's all . By the way , when I was set up in the video section out at Joshua Tree National Park , I had a line of folks a hundred feet long waiting to view through my Plossl . Lots of ooohs and aaahs , which is more than I can say for the video monitors . Maybe there is something to be said for us old fashioned guys that want to do things in the traditional method .
Criticism and stating a point of view are two separate things . It's a two way street . So attempting to convey that your way is superior is bound to receive some scoffing by the traditionalist .


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tecmageModerator
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/13/10

Loc: Glenview, IL
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5649258 - 01/28/13 09:01 PM

Okay, be nice.

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Stew57
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: tecmage]
      #5649345 - 01/28/13 09:59 PM

My eyesight is not what it once was.Using the video (mallincam in my case) has revitalized my hooby. Just wish I could get the FOV that the newer eyepieces give.

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Raginar
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Rapid CIty, SD
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: dan_h]
      #5649623 - 01/29/13 01:49 AM

Very true. Mostly because they're all living at home!

Life is cheap when you don't have to pay for it.


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Joe Bergeron
Vendor - Space Art


Reged: 11/10/03

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #5653238 - 01/30/13 09:21 PM

Video astronomy reminds me of those guys who make space art with spray cans:

Spray Can Space Artist

The result isn't really very good, but it's fast, and people are always impressed to see it made right in front of them.


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PaulEK
sage
*****

Reged: 05/25/08

Loc: Wisconsin
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Joe Bergeron]
      #5653387 - 01/30/13 10:54 PM

I do outreach and like viewing/imaging alone. I also like tinkering with gear.

Last summer, the summer library theme here in Wisconsin was all about nighttime. I went to about 50 libraries with my portable planetarium, presented to over 100 groups, mostly kids, for a total of over 3000 people. During a typical year it's less, but still always in the hundreds.

I also work with 5 to 10-year-olds every day, and have for decades. I agree that there are fewer young folks involved in astronomy (and other worthy pursuits) than there ought to be. I blame two cultural changes we've gone through:

1. Many parents are convinced that their kids have to have some kind of scheduled activities going on all the time (preferably, it seems, activities that don't involve the parents). Sports are the big one. These kids just don't have time.

2. Much more common, and not really new: parents who don't know or care at all what their kids are doing, so those kids spend a lot of time in front of screens, because it's easy, staves off boredom, and requires no commitment. I'm 52, and I grew up in a home with little parenting. I (and my many siblings) watched TV every day from the time we got up till we went to school, then from the time we got home till bed. I still have pretty much every episode of Gilligan's Island memorized.

But there are plenty of kids who are very interested in astronomy, and science in general. But all kids are sponges for all that's new, if given the chance and encouragement, so they typically don't stick with something for the long term without adult encouragement. And too many parents are either two busy with their own priorities to give that encouragement, or they just don't care. Those that do care have the kids that I see in the libraries.

The last trend I'd look at, which someone upthread mentioned, is that many people have turned against science -- and even reality -- in the US. More and more in my planetarium, I'm having kids challenge me; actively denying the age of the universe, the size and distances to stars. I get questions, asked in a snarky way, like 'How can they possibly know that?' It doesn't happen often, but it happens more than it used to. I also had kids, clearly worried, ask if the world was really going to end last month. It's sad, and it worries me.

These are just my observations, in no particular order or presented for any other reason but to share.


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Raginar
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Rapid CIty, SD
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: PaulEK]
      #5655724 - 02/01/13 08:05 AM

Paul, thanks for sharing with us. I've always been surprised by the number of kids who don't ask questions like that. Unfortunately, there are parents who believe that stuff. I knew one guy who told his children in high school to actively challenge their teachers on issues like that.

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rockethead26
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/21/09

Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Raginar]
      #5655759 - 02/01/13 08:20 AM

There really isn't a problem with challenging what's being taught. Think about it from an opposite point of view. What if your children were being taught the "other" point of view. Would you not want your children to challenge the assertions?

The responsibility falls onto the teachers (as it always has) to present the scientific evidence to back up what they are teaching. With proper presentation, progress is made. Unfortunately, in our country, education in not a priority and these old myths resurface.


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ahopp
sage


Reged: 05/24/12

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5655815 - 02/01/13 08:40 AM

I have no problem with a student, at any age, challenging their teacher. It just needs to be done in a respectful manner.

Tony


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ponz
super member


Reged: 07/18/12

Loc: Kansas City, MO
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Mxplx2]
      #5655837 - 02/01/13 08:51 AM

Quote:

When I was a kid we had a TV show called Mr. Wizard on Saturdays. He did all kinds of interesting scientific things and it was must see TV for me every Saturday. Today, Saturdays are all cartoons and sugary cereal commercials. First they rot their minds and then they rot their teeth.




I too enjoyed Mr Wizard!

Ponz


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: ponz]
      #5655844 - 02/01/13 08:57 AM

"The last trend I'd look at, which someone upthread mentioned, is that many people have turned against science -- and even reality -- in the US. More and more in my planetarium, I'm having kids challenge me; actively denying the age of the universe, the size and distances to stars. I get questions, asked in a snarky way, like 'How can they possibly know that?' It doesn't happen often, but it happens more than it used to. I also had kids, clearly worried, ask if the world was really going to end last month. It's sad, and it worries me."

How far we've come from hiding in caves because we fear the universe......


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5656000 - 02/01/13 10:15 AM

Just when I thought this thread was dead...


I think that a lot of the criticism against science from kids and adults alike comes from the fact that they don't understand how science works, the scientific method. Why theories can change or be replaced, as new things are discovered, instead of remaining the same.

And we should remind EVERYONE that nearly EVERYTHING they use in modern society, from washing machines, to cars, TV, internet, plastic bags, nylon socks, LED flashlights, loudspeakers, oil, perfume, medicine, etc, etc, is made possible ONLY by the intensive use of scientific methods and research.

I can't help to find it funny that the enemies of science have no trouble using modern media in communications as well as drive cars and go to the hospital and use modern medicine to cure an illness. Most all of us, including the deniers, OWE OUR LIFE to science! Before modern medicine, the childhood mortality rate age zero to five years of age was around 50% to 70% and if you happened to catch pneumonia, even as a strong adult, it was often the end for you. My own life has been saved by science on several occasions. Including from pneumonia, which, given how ill I was, would surely have killed me, if it had been left untreated.

I think a lot of people don't see medicine as a science. It's just someone's job. Save my life, doctor! But the good doctor can't save your life without penicillin, which was discovered by a scientist. Maybe people only see those things that they don't really understand, the pure research into the unknown, as science. Astronomy, quantum mechanics, that sort of thing. But science is like a giant tree, with a lot of different branches. Astronomy, quantum physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics, etc. They are different branches on the same tree.

And that tree doesn't grow from our society, our society is upheld by its strong trunk, lifted up in the sunshine and let us see more of the surrounding landscape, more and more as the tree grows.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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cheapersleeper
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/22/10

Loc: Sachse TX
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5656108 - 02/01/13 10:51 AM

Quote:

There really isn't a problem with challenging what's being taught. Think about it from an opposite point of view. What if your children were being taught the "other" point of view. Would you not want your children to challenge the assertions?

The responsibility falls onto the teachers (as it always has) to present the scientific evidence to back up what they are teaching. With proper presentation, progress is made. Unfortunately, in our country, education in not a priority and these old myths resurface.





It is not possible to use evidence to disprove beliefs and it is certainly not possible to educate the willfully ignorant.

B


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5656112 - 02/01/13 10:53 AM

Antibiotics? You didn't do it right; you're supposed to rub the entrails of a 3-day-dead chicken on your chest followed up by drinking an entire bottle of Rebel Yell (Rob known cure for whatever ails you). When you can see Jupiter thru the bottom of the bottlescope, you're cured (at least temporarily).

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PaulEK
sage
*****

Reged: 05/25/08

Loc: Wisconsin
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5656390 - 02/01/13 01:39 PM

Many of the kids I see do not go to school; they are home-schooled. If I argue with them, I am arguing pretty much directly with their parents. But I do it anyway. I agree completely with Thomas. Science works; it is a process, a way of looking at the world. I try my best to get that point across, especially if I get disagreement. When I'm asked, "How can 'they' know that?" I give as clear an answer as I can, though it isn't easy with young kids, especially those without basic knowledge. I'll talk about the speed of light, how international radio conversations can be slowed by it. How we know that we know how far the planets are because we've actually gone to them. How we've figured out how far the stars are by using parallax measurements with the earth's orbit around the sun to find the closest, and other methods to find those farther away. I talk about the things Thomas writes of.

Of course, I don't always have much time for this, so I cannot cover all the details with most groups. And I really don't do it to convince that particular challenging kid (though it would be nice to get through the denial), but to show the kids around him that, to be blunt, if he doesn't want to believe me, he's wrong. Reality can be denied, but it's still there to be seen, and to be understood, with science. And understanding the particulars is not beyond those interested enough to find out.

I just did a presentation this morning, and want to make clear that most kids don't need convincing. They were excited, and very grateful for the chance to see and learn. Kids tell you what they think, if you let them, and these kids kept thanking me, and said 'Wow!' a lot.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: PaulEK]
      #5656440 - 02/01/13 02:08 PM

They keep asking "How do you know"; yet espouse "faith" as a fact....

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PaulEK
sage
*****

Reged: 05/25/08

Loc: Wisconsin
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5657006 - 02/01/13 07:23 PM

One thing I think some people have trouble with is that science does not claim to have final answers. As we learn more, we change what we think is true. For some people, that is seen as a weakness. Others actually claim it is dishonest and misleading. These folks do not understand science, or claim they don't. If you are not willing to change your mind about what is real when given new and compelling evidence, then science won't work for you.

This is fine with me, until these folks start trying to tell others how they should or should not view the world, and how we should all live in it. When I'm not feeling generous toward the selfishness of this viewpoint, I sometimes wish these folks would give up the benefits that the science they deny gives them every day.


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Raginar
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Rapid CIty, SD
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: ahopp]
      #5657080 - 02/01/13 08:20 PM

Ahopp,

You know what I meant by 'challenge'. They're not doing in a respectful way; otherwise it'd be a discussion.

Most of you have hit it on the head, these kids are raised by people who don't understand science and think its fallibility is a flaw.

The other thing I've noticed is how when I talk about astronomy, many people instantly want to jump on their religious beliefs as if I'm trying to disprove their beliefs. I'm not; I'm just stating facts as we seem them today. I just wish I could have a good conversation about astronomy without someone foisting their religious preferences on me.

Anyways, good conversation about all of this.



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