asaint
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 1979
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Hi all,
Warm weather is here and I'm sure many of us will be asked to have a public observing night by somebody or some organization.
OK, money no object - what are the top 3 best telescopes to use when you are doing an open public night observing program?
Allister
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie (sort of)
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 22021
Loc: NE Ohio
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By far the nicest setups I've seen used at public sites were 10" to 12" SCT's on altitude/azimuth forkmounts. Three easy picks are the 10" and 12" LX200GPS and the 11" Nexstar GPS. Set the tripod low so the kids can reach the eyepiece. It's the most comfortable setup (most consistent eyepiece location and orientation) I know of for folks unfamiliar with telescope use. I usually have a widefield refractor on top for extended objects, but the main scope gets the most use.
I believe this is the year we will finally retire the big EQ Newtonian in our Club observatory so we can stop asking kids and seniors to climb that !@#$ ladder in the dark. There can be a big difference between the instrument we might choose for our own enjoyment and one we would choose for public edification.
I hope you intend to open a similar thread on suggested objects for such sessions. I dunno how many times I've seen people walk away puzzled after being invited to view some "averted vision" object in the first telescope they've ever tried to look through.
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John C
Urban Observatory
MaxScope 60
Tele Vue Pronto
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N APO
Meade 7" F/15 Mak-Cass
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
STL-11000M LRGB,Ha,OII,SII
LXD750, EM-200
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asaint
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 1979
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Hi John,
The Alt-Az mounted GOTO Cats are a nice choice for the smallest variation in eyepiece height and the most comfortable position for the public to view in.
Back when I had my 8" Mak-Newt I went through a tough public night trying to get kids to the eyepiece. What circus that was - never again...
Good idea on the best public objects thread.
Allister
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LivingNDixie
Lord of Ferrets
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 15708
Loc: Hoover, AL
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A really big dob. It doesn't matter what brand, it just has to be big
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Preston
Celestron 11" Nexstar GPS XLT
Lunt LS60T/Ha 60mm f/8.33 (on order)
It’s not finishing something when your tank is empty that makes you a stronger person. It’s brushing yourself off and refacing the foe that defeated you with the same determination and willingness to fight that you had when you began your journey.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12341
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I am of the opinion that bigger is worse for public outreach.
I've been holding public astronomy nights for about 5 or 6 years now. I want scopes that i can show people how to operate. I want scopes that are not bigger than the kids that look thru them, that are not imposing, that are realistic sizes of scopes that any one of these people, most of whom don't own a scope, might go out and purchase.
I have two 6" scopes, a CR150 and a 6" SVD. The are usually both set up at my outdoor sessions. But by far the best scope I have for public sessions is my 5" C5 SCT. It is the easiest to use. It can be operated by most anyone after just a minute of instruction. It provides great views. The viewing height is always about the same. As I move about the field during the night, the people at the C5 are managing by themselves to keep that scope operating, on target and everyone is viewing.
My second best scope at these sessions is an AT1010. These two scopes get used more than all the others.
I would say the third that I have is the SVD6".
All three of these scopes are mounted on easy to use equatoral mounts.
Most all of the outdoor shows I put on are in conjunction with teaching students. Most of my groups are centered around a 5th grade class and their families. Just last week and again last night we had about 50-60 people out for a night. Constantly, all night long, part of the learning experience is the fact that the object is moving so fast thru the eyepiece and the mount is used to track by counteracting the motion of the earth.
So my best setup is a small easy to operate scope mounted on a simple equatoral mount. It must be operable by anyone within a few minutes. And it must be reachable from no more than a small sturdy step stool for kids sometimes no taller than 3 1/2 to 4 feet. They must be able to hold on to the tripod legs so they keep their hands off the eyepiece.
I think small is better. It's been working for me for years now. Nearly 2500 students and parents and going strong. Another 200 people in 4 sessions planned between now and the end of May.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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asaint
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 1979
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Edz,
You've brought back some fond memories of a C5+ I once owned. One of my two all time favorite SCTs. The Celestar 8 was the other favorite - something like 27lbs total weight.
Too bad neither is being sold anymore.
Allister
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12341
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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The C5, my favorite. I don't ever leave home without it. By the way that SVD6 is taking over from the CR150 due to ease of use. The CR150 is usually there and it's always a big hit, but no one else can operate it. Had it set up last nightfor viewing a few things, but mostly with a 8.8 UWA for viewing Saturn.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Astrosetz
sage
Reged: 10/05/03
Posts: 241
Loc: Wisconsin
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I would have to disagree with EdZ about smaller being better for public outreach. My experience has been just the opposite.
The best scope I have for outreach is my 22" GOTO Starmaster. Everyone is impressed with the size and they all *have* to look through it...even those parents who are just there to "humor" their kids. Since it's f/4 even small kids don't have to climb more than 4 steps on my very sturdy 6-ft ladder, and it gives them something to hold onto other than the scope. Even if they do bump the scope, it doesn't move because the drive motors are engaged, so there is no problem with that. I have taught people, even 12-year-olds, how to slew around using the hand controller -- kids actually find it very natural!
After all of that, the views always blow them away. M13/3/5/2, M51, NGC4565, M17, M57, etc...they all look very obvious even to untrained eyes and they easily see central stars, spiral arms, and the like. I never have to worry about people saying "gee, that's nice" but thinking "what the heck is he talking about, I don't see squat." I *know* they see the object and features in question, and they are always impressed with the view and what you can see "out there."
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-Astrosetz
www.astrosetz.com
Edited by Astrosetz (05/02/04 08:02 AM)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12341
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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So let's see, to what could we compare using a 22" scope as a teaching scope.
It would be kind of like teaching:
a teenager to drive using a forumla one racer, instead of a Corolla;
a little leaguer to bat with a 40"/32oz bat instead of a 30"/18oz;
a cub scout to hike with a 3200 cu. in. full pack before ever wearing a day pack;
a kid to play Mozart before every learning how to play chop sticks;
I don't know, I just don't see how big is better. I'd rather have everyone go away after a night out and realize what they could see with a small piece of equipment that
they could afford to purchase,
let their kid take out back on their own,
is not so big that they get scared off from the hobby.
I would want them to be exposed to the simple realities of beginning astronomy, that they wouldn't go away and be disappointed because it might be half a liftime before they could ever afford to see the sky as they just did through a 22" scope and anything they might get after that would be a big disappointment.
At every session I hold, everyone is blown away by the views, ever thru the 3", 5" and 6" scopes. Many poeple go away from the night with the realization that here is something they could afford to do with their kids and they have seen and used equipment that is realistic to purchase to do it and have a lot of fun.
I'd be inclined to think using a 22" scope as a teaching scope would chase more people away from astronomy as a hobby than it might encourage to take it up as something they could realistically approach and do on their own!
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Jim Svetlikov
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/06/03
Posts: 2033
Loc: Crescent Beach
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Th bigger scopes will definitely bring out the "WOW" factor and of course everyone wants to look through it. But if you're in a group situation trying to teach a number of people, a smaller, easily accessible scope is best.
I would think an SCT would work best in this situation because most simply have to walk up behind the scope and have a peek without too much trouble. A reflector may require a variety of standing or crouching positions.
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It is better to build a boy than try to mend a man.
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Doug Paddock
sage
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 281
Loc: Northern New Jersey
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Hi All, I present an astronomy program at the local state park every summer and my C14 is a real crowd pleaser, young and old alike…..Doug
Celestron CG-14
Celestron C6-R
TV102 / TV76
SolarMax 60 / BF-30
Losmandy G11
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ArizonaScott
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 4976
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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Best I've seen so far is an old orange C14 used by Astronomy For Everyone in the Phoenix area fot their public outreach parties. Having a great operator (Jim) doesn't hurt either.
When I volunteer my instrument of choice is an ST80 or 20x80 binos on a parallellogram mount. The ease of raising & lowering between kids & adults is a big plus, and the wide-field views are pleasing.
No el-cheapo 60mm's on alt-az mounts! My son insists on using one once in awhile but becomes quickly frustrated with trying to keep an object in the FOV. My recent purchase of an 8" EQ newt with motor drives should cure that.
Scott
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Scott
10" LX200 Classic, Konus 200, Orion ST80, ETX90 OTA, 60mm Celestron alt-az, Obie 20x80's, Meade 10x50's
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Bob Pasken
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/30/03
Posts: 512
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I agree with Ed, a small scope is better. I do a lot of starparties for both cub scouts and boy scouts. I bring a StarLab planetarium to teach concepts and prep everyone during the day and I bring scopes for the evening. I encourage people to bring any scope they have and I will help them learn how to use it. Normally my son (also a scout) and I are the people running the show. Although I bring a 10" Meade for the wow factor, I don't think there is much difference in the wow for a first timer between an adjusted and tuned orion 60mm refractor pointing at the moon and a 10" pointing at the moon. The same applies to Saturn or Jupiter. Unlike ArizonaScott a 60mm scope with a 25mm eyepiece is a good idea, particularly after I show what a tuned up scope can do. With a 25mm eyepiece the scope will keep things in view for long enough for a bunch of people to see. The only problem I have is they move the scope in the wrong direction to recenter the object, but that is a clasic problem every observer needs to get used to.I also stay with bright easy to see objects; the moon, any planets that might be visible, double stars particularly Mizar and Alcore, because it is a test of vision and because it is also a double star. I then show a few showpieces that are easy for me to find but present a small challenge for novice observers. Since I have a dark site looking for things like m8 and m22 give a small challenge for those who do have scopes.
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Astrosetz
sage
Reged: 10/05/03
Posts: 241
Loc: Wisconsin
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I guess I have just had different experience. I'm not saying small telescopes aren't good for public outreach; I'm just saying that in the 20 years I've been doing public outreach, I've had the best results when I use my 22-incher.
One difference may be what we mean by public outreach. I'm not talking about teaching people how to use a telescope, but rather, taking them on a tour of the heavens. They are very different activites. When I do an adult astronomy class I use my 11" Starmaster ELT, 6" Criterion Dynascope and 4.5" Orion Skyquest, for just the reasons that EdZ cites. I would never suggest "teaching someone the ropes" on a 22" scope.
Interestingly, while John Dobson and Bob Summerfield also like to use large telescopes for public outreach, David Levy specifically prefers to use small telescopes. So, I think that either approach can be successful :-)
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-Astrosetz
www.astrosetz.com
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LivingNDixie
Lord of Ferrets
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 15708
Loc: Hoover, AL
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Well I guess it depends on what the goal is. If you want to impress the crowd big is better, if you want to try and teach the people what type of scopes there are and hopefully hook them into the hobby, well you need to worry more about cost and not the type of scope!
Money determines what size/type/brand scope people buy!
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Preston
Celestron 11" Nexstar GPS XLT
Lunt LS60T/Ha 60mm f/8.33 (on order)
It’s not finishing something when your tank is empty that makes you a stronger person. It’s brushing yourself off and refacing the foe that defeated you with the same determination and willingness to fight that you had when you began your journey.
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6634
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
Hi all,
Warm weather is here and I'm sure many of us will be asked to have a public observing night by somebody or some organization.
OK, money no object - what are the top 3 best telescopes to use when you are doing an open public night observing program?
Allister
Well, I would say that the SCT has a lot going for it, so it would probably be one of the three. Beyond this, a rich-field Newtonian or refractor in the 4 to 8 inch range fills a niche for the public. Big Dobs are also nice, but those with non-rotatable tubes and without drives can be tiring on the public. At Hyde Observatory, our three main instruments are a C14, an old 12 inch Starliner Newtonian/Cassegrain, and an 8 inch f/6 Newtonian. We are about to replace our 12 inch with a NexStar 11 SCT, so you can see how our experience (and mine with my own NexStar) has changed our way of thinking. We have had a number of times where we have jury-rigged a camcorder to one of our scopes and fed the image back into the lecture hall and up on our video projector, so we wish to do this on a more permanent basis. With increasing emphasis on electronic imaging, our current scope line is not keeping pace, so the new NexStar 11 will be doing the majority of the electronic stuff. Eventually, I imagine that the C14 will be "updated" as well. Clear skies to you.
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie (sort of)
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 22021
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
We are about to replace our 12 inch with a NexStar 11 SCT, so you can see how our experience (and mine with my own NexStar) has changed our way of thinking.
Hi, David.
Our Club observatory has used a 12" F/8 Newtonian on a German EQ mount for years. While it is optically rather nice, I have cringed every time we have instructed a senior or a child to climb the portable stairs in the dark to get up to the eyepiece. Because it's a club, it's been impossible to get all together on the notion of updating the instrument. This year I was able to get a private group together who will purchase a telescope and will donate it to the Club. This gift will be a 14" LX200GPS. The primary reason for this choice is the consistent and safe EP position inherent in a forkmounted SCT. The precise drives and goto capability are merely bonuses.
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John C
Urban Observatory
MaxScope 60
Tele Vue Pronto
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N APO
Meade 7" F/15 Mak-Cass
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
STL-11000M LRGB,Ha,OII,SII
LXD750, EM-200
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Don W
Postmaster
Reged: 05/19/03
Posts: 12992
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
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In some ways I side with Jeff S. on the big dob side. But for the most part, I think an 8" or larger SCT in alt/az works best. You need something sturdy for all those people that grab the eyepiece and give it a crank or hold on for dear life. I would also vote for a 10" or so dob that doesn't require more than a couple steps up a small step stool or ladder.
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Don Wyman
Obsession 18" f/4.5 #1166
W/Argo Navis DSC and Torus Primary
William Optics Megrez 90
Coronado PST
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lighttrap
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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I bought an Orion SVP 8" EQ specifically to do public outreach. So far, I think it's been a good choice. I wanted something that tracked objects, (which my 8" Dob won't do). But, even more than that, I wanted something that was affordable and within the means of not only myself, but most who look through it. Lots of the folks that I deal with have had at least some exposure to looking through giant observatory scopes, and some have had bad experiences with very small dept. store scopes. So, I wanted something that could show folks what is possible with a scope that is well within the ecconomic reach of the average person. It also needed to be easily transported and set up by one person. So for me, an 8" newt made a lot of sense in this role.
There are some issues with the eyepiece not always being in the most accessible place for people of all heights. But, largely I'm very pleased with this scope as an outreach tool. Though, I've not used it in that capacity as much as I'd hoped due to having one of the cloudiest Springs on record.
A couple of the local colleges have chosen pier mounted 10-12" SCTs for the bulk of their public outreach. Those are a good choice when money isn't as much of an object. But, my objection to those as an outreach tool, is that when folks start asking about prices, the comments are almost always along the lines that astronomy is too expensive for the average person. I like to show that it's not.
It's already been pointed out in this thread that it makes a big difference what the goal of the outreach is. Wowing folks and showing them how to operate a telescope are totally different things. I guess my goal is really almost a third variant, and that would be 1)to get folks looking up, 2)to get them thinking about light pollution, 3)to show them that astronomy is very accessible to people of all means and interest levels. Of course I hope they all have a good time, and I really get a kick out of hearing "Wow!". And of course I hope they learn a little bit about the nightsky.
Anyway, for my particular goals, I'd have to say that having several sets of handholdable binoculars to pass around, and one larger mounted set (Fujinon FMT-SX 16x70 on Unimount Light Deluxe p'gram mount) is really as important or maybe more important to the outreach events I've done so far.
One other thing that bears mentioning, is that it really makes a difference what age group is being targeted. Most of the folks I deal with are college kids, grad students and other adults in the 20-50 y/o range. Children might well require a completely different approach.
Mike Swaim
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18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others
Edited by lighttrap (06/05/04 10:36 AM)
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desertstars
Say What?
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 29434
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Outreach was on my list of considerations, as well, Mike. This is a pretty good, general purpose scope, and it has a certain presence that catches the attention of non-astronomers (meaning it's pretty big). After that, I'd probably have a 3" to 5" apo and something in the middle to large SCT line set up. That way the differences between the 3 major types of telescope could be illustrated.
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
It is a plain road from the earth to the stars though mortal feet can not tread it. Garret P. Serviss 1888
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